As to "adjustments being made" to accomodate Muslim women, etc., SCREW THEM...if they don't want to be searched, scanned or whatever let them stay home and make goat burgers or something. I say don't make "adjustments" for ANYBODY AT ALL...not them, not me, not anybody.
What I mentioned about Muslim organizations asking our HSA/TSA to exempt Muslim women from the intrusive searches because their religion gives them a heightened sense of modesty has not actually happened yet, so we really have to wait and see if it does. All we know at this point is that the request was made and Napolitano did not say no. And she seemed to imply that it could happen. If the exemption is granted, I would not be surprised. It would be the mother of all ironies.
Those who believe that the TSA is just for show might want to check out Table 2-16b of the 2009 National Transportation Statistics. Here is a list of the non-allowed items that the TSA intercepted in 2007 at Airport Screening Checkpoints. This is the latest complete data:
Interestingly, a former coach of the Dallas Cowboys was stopped at DFW whilst attempting to pass through the TSA screening points. It seems that he had a loaded pistol in his carry-on. Oh, he is reported to have said, "I didn't know that was in my bag.
I want the TSA to do a thorough job of screening commercial airline passengers as well as reasonable screenings of train, bus, and transit passengers. Whether I am on a plane, train, bus, or subway, I don't want a nut case sitting next to me with a gun or stiletto.
Ed, as to your interface with the man who did not know the danger that HCN presents, perhaps the people who sent him to check on the cars with chlorine in them should also be concerned about such things as hydrocyanic acid, and check on them also. It is possible to survive chlorine (as I recall, it is hazard zone B, not A), but HCN is, as you state, far more deadly. How many other deadly substances which these people do not bother with do you handle? A friend of mine was working with chlorine in an evacuated hood when the hood apparently backfired on him. The following year, he went into the Marine Corps, and was asked about his tuberculosis (the chlorine had scarred his lungs). He came back to college with his zeal for the pre-med course unabated. The same amount of HCN would probably meant a call for a hearse.
It is true that the Germans used chlorine (when the wind was right) to bother the English, French and AEF during the "Great War," hoping to kill the men in the trenches. Give thanks that they did not use something worse. One man at home was gassed, and he lived many years thereafter.
Johnny
edblysard Here is a idea, been tried before, and worked quite well. It requires sacrifice and hard work and often death, but... How about we really take the fight to them? Ever seen what a CBG, (Carrier Battle Group) can accomplish when you take away the restraints? The terroris want to live in something close to the third century, and you know what, some folks like myself would be quite happy to help them achieve that goal. The price of freedom is high. [snip]
It requires sacrifice and hard work and often death, but...
How about we really take the fight to them?
Ever seen what a CBG, (Carrier Battle Group) can accomplish when you take away the restraints?
The terroris want to live in something close to the third century, and you know what, some folks like myself would be quite happy to help them achieve that goal.
The price of freedom is high. [snip]
Right on, bro'. You probably remember what Air Force General Curtis LeMay said about "bombing them back to the Stone Age". What would Teddy Roosevelt think of all this ?
I figure that at $100,000 per person for an entire year, the $8 Billion a year that the TSA costs us would support about 80,000 troops = 8 divisions continuously in the field. Deployed and with appropriate orders, that would go a long ways towards removing the source of the problem. General William Tecumseh Sherman demonstrated one way how to do it back during the Civil War, too, in his 'March to the Sea'.
- Paul North.
Hopefully the silly season of responses (CBG to attack whom?) has ended. Here's an effective, reasonable idea for detecting one of the most common explosives, which has been hard to detect:
http://www.las.illinois.edu/news/2010/sensor/
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I personally dont hink this grope-and-search ordeal will be able to stand long. The people of the U.S. are finally standing up, they are getting to see their freedoms taken away in a VERY personal manner with this, and I have seen few in favor for it in my circles. The last time I flew was about a month ago, but where I flew in and out of they didnt have this in place nor was this program in motion. The government has to remember, THEY work for US, not the other way around. If we dont like what a particular person or party is doing, WE have the right to get them out of power. If enough people protest this wrongful and ineffective screening procedure, it will be gone.
I think that the only thing that is keeping us safe from air terrorism so far is the fact that the enemy has not yet made a concerted effort to mount a simultaneous, multiple suicide bomber attack. Surely they realize that the way to circumvent our standard imaging/pat-down procedure is to swallow capsules of c-4 along with a detonator capsule. They just need to figure out a detonator that can be triggered by swallowing some type of substance that TSA will allow to be taken onto the plane.
What this grim potential suggests is a stronger imaging machine at the security checkpoints. The X-ray power will have to be boosted so they can see inside the body. This may force limitations on how often a passenger can be screened, so I suppose your air travel screenings will have to become a part of your medical record.
Link to Terror ‘Mules’: bombs in bodies.
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2001/11/48349?currentPage=1
rockymidlandrr . The government has to remember, THEY work for US, not the other way around. If we dont like what a particular person or party is doing, WE have the right to get them out of power. If enough people protest this wrongful and ineffective screening procedure, it will be gone.
. The government has to remember, THEY work for US, not the other way around. If we dont like what a particular person or party is doing, WE have the right to get them out of power. If enough people protest this wrongful and ineffective screening procedure, it will be gone.
And what is the percentage of elgible americans that even bother to vote? Twenty-some percent?
I somehow doubt we'll see anyone taking to the streets.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann rockymidlandrr: . The government has to remember, THEY work for US, not the other way around. If we dont like what a particular person or party is doing, WE have the right to get them out of power. If enough people protest this wrongful and ineffective screening procedure, it will be gone. And what is the percentage of elgible americans that even bother to vote? Twenty-some percent? I somehow doubt we'll see anyone taking to the streets.
rockymidlandrr: . The government has to remember, THEY work for US, not the other way around. If we dont like what a particular person or party is doing, WE have the right to get them out of power. If enough people protest this wrongful and ineffective screening procedure, it will be gone.
57 % in 2008 . It's never been at 20%...lowest at around 35 % over the last 50 years.
Still really lousy...
Ulrich57 % in 2008 . It's never been at 20%...lowest at around 35 % over the last 50 years.
2010 - 28%
2008 - 63%
Bucyrus I think that the only thing that is keeping us safe from air terrorism so far is the fact that the enemy has not yet made a concerted effort to mount a simultaneous, multiple suicide bomber attack.
Bucyrus, I think the other thing we have working for us is that, on 9-11-01, these primitive SOBs had the best day of their lives. And that depended on us not knowing, or believing, what they were up to.
Not that they can't get lucky again, of course. But I like the ideas you have laid out in this thread for improving our present politically correct screenings.
Murray Ulrich: 57 % in 2008 . It's never been at 20%...lowest at around 35 % over the last 50 years. 2010 - 28% 2008 - 63%
Ulrich: 57 % in 2008 . It's never been at 20%...lowest at around 35 % over the last 50 years.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781453.html
Let's just hope they don't do this type of security on Amtrack stations
Sam1 Those who believe that the TSA is just for show might want to check out Table 2-16b of the 2009 National Transportation Statistics. Here is a list of the non-allowed items that the TSA intercepted in 2007 at Airport Screening Checkpoints. This is the latest complete data: 1,416 firearms 1,056,687 knives 11,908 box cutters 101,387 other cutting instruments 9,443 clubs 89,623 incendiaries 5,245,558 other prohibited items Interestingly, a former coach of the Dallas Cowboys was stopped at DFW whilst attempting to pass through the TSA screening points. It seems that he had a loaded pistol in his carry-on. Oh, he is reported to have said, "I didn't know that was in my bag. I want the TSA to do a thorough job of screening commercial airline passengers as well as reasonable screenings of train, bus, and transit passengers. Whether I am on a plane, train, bus, or subway, I don't want a nut case sitting next to me with a gun or stiletto.
... and absolutely none of them were intended to be used to harm the aircraft or passengers. Those same people normally carry those same items around in our society. Do you realize that you just insinuated the the coach is a potential terrorist?
TSA serves no useful purpose. I would rather use that $8,000,000,000 per year for high speed rail.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
The foolish and abusive check points just bunch hundreds of people up in line. A terrorist doesn't have to get to the airplane, he could just detonate his devise in the middle of the security line.
There are many places where hundreds or thousands of people congregate in small spaces; Trains, subways, river tunnels, bridges, theaters, stadiums, street festivals, race tracks, even the sidewalks of Manhattan. You people are fixated on airplanes more than the bad guys are.
It is not possible to eliminate all risk from life. Come out from under your bed and enjoy life. We are the best weapon the bad guys have. They do something bizarre once every ten years or so and we take care of the rest of keeping ourselves continuously terrorized.
When passenger rail is hit by terrorists, be prepared for a raft of restrictive security proposals and measures.
An X-Ray machine in Where the Hell, North Dakota. No machine means groped by local law enforcement who show up at train time where there is no Amtrak agent. The reaction to an attack may know no limit of absurdity.
Phoebe Vet Sam1: Those who believe that the TSA is just for show might want to check out Table 2-16b of the 2009 National Transportation Statistics. Here is a list of the non-allowed items that the TSA intercepted in 2007 at Airport Screening Checkpoints. This is the latest complete data: 1,416 firearms 1,056,687 knives 11,908 box cutters 101,387 other cutting instruments 9,443 clubs 89,623 incendiaries 5,245,558 other prohibited items Interestingly, a former coach of the Dallas Cowboys was stopped at DFW whilst attempting to pass through the TSA screening points. It seems that he had a loaded pistol in his carry-on. Oh, he is reported to have said, "I didn't know that was in my bag. I want the TSA to do a thorough job of screening commercial airline passengers as well as reasonable screenings of train, bus, and transit passengers. Whether I am on a plane, train, bus, or subway, I don't want a nut case sitting next to me with a gun or stiletto. ... and absolutely none of them were intended to be used to harm the aircraft or passengers. Those same people normally carry those same items around in our society. Do you realize that you just insinuated the the coach is a potential terrorist? TSA serves no useful purpose. I would rather use that $8,000,000,000 per year for high speed rail.
Sam1: Those who believe that the TSA is just for show might want to check out Table 2-16b of the 2009 National Transportation Statistics. Here is a list of the non-allowed items that the TSA intercepted in 2007 at Airport Screening Checkpoints. This is the latest complete data: 1,416 firearms 1,056,687 knives 11,908 box cutters 101,387 other cutting instruments 9,443 clubs 89,623 incendiaries 5,245,558 other prohibited items Interestingly, a former coach of the Dallas Cowboys was stopped at DFW whilst attempting to pass through the TSA screening points. It seems that he had a loaded pistol in his carry-on. Oh, he is reported to have said, "I didn't know that was in my bag. I want the TSA to do a thorough job of screening commercial airline passengers as well as reasonable screenings of train, bus, and transit passengers. Whether I am on a plane, train, bus, or subway, I don't want a nut case sitting next to me with a gun or stiletto. ... and absolutely none of them were intended to be used to harm the aircraft or passengers. Those same people normally carry those same items around in our society. Do you realize that you just insinuated the the coach is a potential terrorist?
Sam1: Those who believe that the TSA is just for show might want to check out Table 2-16b of the 2009 National Transportation Statistics. Here is a list of the non-allowed items that the TSA intercepted in 2007 at Airport Screening Checkpoints. This is the latest complete data: 1,416 firearms 1,056,687 knives 11,908 box cutters 101,387 other cutting instruments 9,443 clubs 89,623 incendiaries 5,245,558 other prohibited items Interestingly, a former coach of the Dallas Cowboys was stopped at DFW whilst attempting to pass through the TSA screening points. It seems that he had a loaded pistol in his carry-on. Oh, he is reported to have said, "I didn't know that was in my bag. I want the TSA to do a thorough job of screening commercial airline passengers as well as reasonable screenings of train, bus, and transit passengers. Whether I am on a plane, train, bus, or subway, I don't want a nut case sitting next to me with a gun or stiletto.
You have no idea what the intention of those who showed up at a TSA screening point was, unless of course you have divine powers, which I don't think is the case. I said nothing about the coach. You ability to draw conclusions out of thin air is astounding. The point is that the TSA stopped mostly passengers who had the ability to create harm to an airplane or the people on it.
According to U.S. Today, 81 per cent of Americans, whilst many don't like it, support the efforts of the TSA. I certainly do. Most of the cost of the airport screening program is covered by ticket taxes. It is highly unlikely that the money would be available for high speed rail if the TSA went away.
This debate over the intentions behind the discovery of banned items highlights the difference between our bureaucratic security net that catches everybody on the assumption all are terrorists until proven otherwise; and the El Al Airline security system that looks for potential terrorists and then focuses on them alone.
There is no point in taking pen knives away from people who only carry them to clean their fingernails unless you are a bloated federal bureaucracy that needs to justify its existence, so it can get more funding.
Phoebe Vet Sam1: Those who believe that the TSA is just for show might want to check out Table 2-16b of the 2009 National Transportation Statistics. Here is a list of the non-allowed items that the TSA intercepted in 2007 at Airport Screening Checkpoints. This is the latest complete data: 1,416 firearms 1,056,687 knives 11,908 box cutters 101,387 other cutting instruments 9,443 clubs 89,623 incendiaries 5,245,558 other prohibited items ... and absolutely none of them were intended to be used to harm the aircraft or passengers. Those same people normally carry those same items around in our society. .......
Sam1: Those who believe that the TSA is just for show might want to check out Table 2-16b of the 2009 National Transportation Statistics. Here is a list of the non-allowed items that the TSA intercepted in 2007 at Airport Screening Checkpoints. This is the latest complete data: 1,416 firearms 1,056,687 knives 11,908 box cutters 101,387 other cutting instruments 9,443 clubs 89,623 incendiaries 5,245,558 other prohibited items
... and absolutely none of them were intended to be used to harm the aircraft or passengers. Those same people normally carry those same items around in our society. .......
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
There seems to be little mention of the explosive devices (modified printer cartridges) which were recently found in mailed packages. Do you paranoid-of-the-terrorists-types realize how much air freight is carried on commercial airliners? Plus, lets not forget how many ground-crew people have access to the plane before it takes off. And what are you going to do about the potential for a dirty bomb or a nuke being smuggled into the country in a 20' container? Or a poison gas attack in a crowded city? There are so many different ways that someone who wishes to do great harm can accomplish his objectives, that if I were to seriously worry about it, I would either be constantly looking over my shoulder and around every corner while seeing everyone on the street as a potential threat, or I would just dig a deep hole, build a survival shelter, and move in waiting for the Apocalypse.
I'm all for increased security. I do not want to see innocents be harmed by some psycho political or religious nut case. I just feel that the security measures currently in place are knee-jerk responses to failed attempts, put in place to make the citizens FEEL more secure. Actual security would be welcome, invasive pseudo-security is not; it wastes resources that could be more effectively used for real security.
To subject grandmothers to invasive body scans while at the same time numerous packages from multiple sources are being loaded on the plane, or scanning people boarding a train that will traverse over 2000 miles of open rail lines seems absurd at best, and wasteful at worst.
Sam1 Those who believe that the TSA is just for show might want to check out Table 2-16b of the 2009 National Transportation Statistics. Here is a list of the non-allowed items that the TSA intercepted in 2007 at Airport Screening Checkpoints. This is the latest complete data: 1,416 firearms 1,056,687 knives 11,908 box cutters 101,387 other cutting instruments 9,443 clubs 89,623 incendiaries 5,245,558 other prohibited items
Perhaps if some of the passengers that were on the planes that were flown into the Trade Center were carrying some of those firearms, knives, clubs, etc., the terrorists would have been stopped DEAD while the planes were still in the air.
zardoz Sam1: Those who believe that the TSA is just for show might want to check out Table 2-16b of the 2009 National Transportation Statistics. Here is a list of the non-allowed items that the TSA intercepted in 2007 at Airport Screening Checkpoints. This is the latest complete data: 1,416 firearms 1,056,687 knives 11,908 box cutters 101,387 other cutting instruments 9,443 clubs 89,623 incendiaries 5,245,558 other prohibited items Perhaps if some of the passengers that were on the planes that were flown into the Trade Center were carrying some of those firearms, knives, clubs, etc., the terrorists would have been stopped DEAD while the planes were still in the air.
Good one, Z; although discriminating among the bearers -- and you'd have to -- would certainly complicate the security screening!
Another idea that occurs to me -- and pardon me if this has already been mentioned -- is that, if push comes to shove, the commercial airlines worldwide might just have to choose between hauling passengers and freight/express on given flights. One but not the other. I know it would increase costs for everybody, but why should passenger lives be held forfeit to a sideline, freight/express?
Hi,
I've been following this debate with interest, as my fiancee and I are planning a honeymoon to the United States in September next year. We'll be travelling by train from Los Angeles to Chicago - this was always part of the plan, as I used to model the ATSF and this is the old Cajon Pass route.
We'll probably end up flying between Chicago and New York, then from New York back to LA for the flight to Australia, but now we have an idea of the worst to expect when flying within the USA. We may not have a choice, but we'll be prepared to tolerate it. Especially after seeing articles like this one.
Also, it's my understanding that the Fourth Amendment to your constitution only exempts border security searches - which would mean that the 'scanner or pat-down' searches without reasonable cause on domestic flights would be a violation?
Cheers,
tbdanny
The Location: Forests of the Pacific Northwest, OregonThe Year: 1948The Scale: On30The Blog: http://bvlcorr.tumblr.com
At the risk of getting censured for uttering the "p- word," it seems that most, though not all of the fuss about this is coming from the more conservative part of the American political spectrum. However, during the Bush presidency there was little or no fuss from the right about airport security or other intrusions into civil rights (wiretapping, internet and e-mail monitoring, etc.).
tbdanny Hi, I've been following this debate with interest, as my fiancee and I are planning a honeymoon to the United States in September next year. We'll be travelling by train from Los Angeles to Chicago - this was always part of the plan, as I used to model the ATSF and this is the old Cajon Pass route. We'll probably end up flying between Chicago and New York, then from New York back to LA for the flight to Australia, but now we have an idea of the worst to expect when flying within the USA. We may not have a choice, but we'll be prepared to tolerate it. Especially after seeing articles like this one. Also, it's my understanding that the Fourth Amendment to your constitution only exempts border security searches - which would mean that the 'scanner or pat-down' searches without reasonable cause on domestic flights would be a violation? Cheers, tbdanny
No worries!
By the time you get here the TSA and the carriers will have worked the snags out of the screening processes. They always have a few glitches when they implement new technology or procedures. And the American press, believe it or not, tends to take exceptions and blow them out of proportion. Many people take a few isolated instances and generalize them to the population as a whole. Of course, in most instances, there is no logical reason to do so. Come to think of it, that may happen on Train's forums from time to time.
LA to Chicago on the Southwest Chief is a good ride. I did it in May of this year from Chicago to LA. I enjoyed every minute of it. If time permits, I recommend that you take the Capitol Limited from Chicago to Washington, D.C. and the Acela from Washington to New York. The Capitol passes through some pretty scenery, and the Acela is a hoot (that's America speak for a thrill), although a pricey one. If you get an Amtrak Rail Pass, you can get a pretty good fare, I believe. Moreover, with you currency being on a near par with the American dollar, you will not have to pay the premium that many of my Australian friends had to pay when they visited America.
For those legs in the U.S. where you have to fly, choose Southwest Airlines if possible. It does not charge you for checked bags. Moreover, if you fly in Australia (I never met an Australian who does not fly), you will feel right at home on Southwest. It is just like Virgin Blue or Virgin Blue is just like it. I like Virgin Blue better because it offers assigned seats. That plus the fact that I was on the first flight on the second day of operations out of Melbourne makes me a devoted customer of Virgin Blue.
I lived in Melbourne from 1999 to 2004. Your country is great! It is one of the best places that I have lived. I go back every year or so to visit friends in Melbourne and Sydney.
Whilst I lived in Australia I rode the Indian Pacific from Sydney to Perth. I also rode the QR's Tilt train, the Spirit of the Outback, and The Sunlander. My journey on the Spirit of the Outback was from Longreach to Brisbane. Not too many Americans get to Longreach. QR is a first class railway. Also, I have taken The Overland between Melbourne and Adelaide six times. And I cannot remember how many times I have taken the Countrylink between Melbourne and Sydney and vice versa.
Plan on a nice trip to the USA. Airport security is a fact of modern air travel. It is a pain but it is not intolerable or nearly as bad as some folks make it out to be. Try to avoid the rush hours, e.g. Sunday night, Monday morning, Friday evening, as well as some of the heavy holiday locations, e.g. Orlando, Miami, etc., at least on the heavy travel days. If you follow these suggestions, you should encounter minor inconveniences. Allow plenty of time to check in, have a cup of coffee, and board your airplane. You won't notice much difference between the security at Sydney and LA.
Cheers
Both my wife and I are licensed to carry concealed hand guns, she is required tby the State of Texas to go armed for her job.
My wife identifies herself to the TSA, and if the plane has an Air Marshal on board, her side arm goes to him, if not, it rides with the pilots in a secure area.
I carry a pocket knife, given to me by my grandfather 40 years ago.
About 4" long, an Old Timer single blade fold up.
I had one box cutter on my desk right now, used it to open....(wait for it...) a box I got in the mail.!
Also have a box cutter in my tool box, one in my car, and one rides around in my back pack I take to WoodCraft where I work part time.
I also carry a incendiary device, my Zippo cigarette lighter.
As for a club, well, my daughter and her softball team tried to fly to an out of state softball tournament, had her 4 aluminum softball bats, which were packed in her checked luggage, refused on the plane, all of the girls had the same problem, we had to FedEx all of them overnight to the game.
We had to send the catchers equipment FedEx too, the TSA said it could be used for body armor.
As for the other contraband, I guess aftershave, too big a tube of toothpaste or too much shampoo fills the bill.
You list is simply bureaucratic bull speak intended to make it look like they really are doing a good job.
Odd thing is, on the mornings news today, the head of the TSA admitted his agents missed things like hand gums, a explosive device and other stuff that other agencies, like the Inspector General and the GAO tired to get on planes during test of the security TSA has in place.
I guess ya never can tell when a entire team of girls 18 and 17 years old might just take over a plane using softball equipment...trust me, these girls are real tough and mean, they even spit sunflower seed shells all over the place.
23 17 46 11
Those young girls scare the hell outta me !
Whats any of this crap got to do with trains anyhow? If you don't like the world get some buddys together grab your guns and change things. Or stay home. If more people stay home and the economy dies.. I guess the bad guys win huh?
Amtrak, in the name of security, needs to employ some top female models to do the "grope tests" for passengers. I predict an upshot in the number of male passengers....
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