Contrary to what Glenn Beck has told you, the Fourth Amendment does not only require warrants for "unreasonable searches". It states that "reasonable" is the requirement for issuing a warrant.
(Retired Police officer here).
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet Contrary to what Glenn Beck has told you, the Fourth Amendment does not only require warrants for "unreasonable searches". It states that "reasonable" is the requirement for issuing a warrant. (Retired Police officer here).
However what is deemed reasonable is still open to interpretation...and that's why we have what we have now. What's reasonable?
I would say that the tensions are going to quickly rise over this new security procedure. This is just the beginning. The travel crush of Thanksgiving is right around the corner. I expect more incidents to occur as tensions rise between indignant passengers and the TSA. That roar in the distance is the sound of damage being done to the airline travel industry.
Phoebe Vet Zug: Please review the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
Zug:
Please review the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
Just did using a handy copy of American Government, Continuity and Change Alternative 2004 Edition Textbook, by Karen O'Connor and Larry J. Sabato. (I'm too lazy to re-learn the proper way to cite a book at this juncture).
Now my question: does buying a ticket/boarding pass indicate consent? And is this considered a "General search"? No TSA guys have come to the house and tried to pat me down...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
No. Determination of what is reasonable is the decision of the judge who issues the warrant. It is not determined by the searching government agent. In the limited circumstances where police officers are allowed to to search without a warrant, they are required to justify the search in court after the fact. The final determination of "reasonable" is never left to the officer.
Bucyrus I would say that the tensions are going to quickly rise over this new security procedure. This is just the beginning. The travel crush of Thanksgiving is right around the corner. I expect more incidents to occur as tensions rise between indignant passengers and the TSA. That roar in the distance is the sound of damage being done to the airline travel industry.
I fly alot and its really not that bad...it helps to plan your trip and to build in some time for security. Patience and a sense of humour also help alot...for shorter trips (up to 900 miles or so) I drive.
Personally I feel a bit sorry for the airline staff who have to deal with indignant passengers...I've seen it happen so often...a passenger lets it out on some poor flight attendent....not his or her fault but I guess they make a good punching bag.
That is the excuse TSA has always fallen back on. But in this particular case they did not allow him to withdraw that implied consent. He has been told that he is going to be subject to a $10,000 penalty for choosing to leave the airport rather than submit to the search. That doesn't sound like voluntary consent to me.
zugmann Phoebe Vet: Zug: Please review the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. Just did using a handy copy of American Government, Continuity and Change Alternative 2004 Edition Textbook, by Karen O'Connor and Larry J. Sabato. (I'm too lazy to re-learn the proper way to cite a book at this juncture). Now my question: does buying a ticket/boarding pass indicate consent? And is this considered a "General search"? No TSA guys have come to the house and tried to pat me down...
Phoebe Vet: Zug: Please review the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
Wikipedia offers this discussion:
Searches conducted at the United States border or the equivalent of the border (such as an international airport) may be conducted without a warrant or probable cause subject to the "border-search" exception.[67] Most border searches may be conducted entirely at random, without any level of suspicion, pursuant to U.S. Customs and Border Protection plenary search authority. However, searches that intrude upon a traveler's personal dignity and privacy interests, such as strip and body cavity searches, must be supported by "reasonable suspicion."[68] The U.S. Courts of Appeals for the Fourth and Ninth circuits have ruled that information on a traveler's electronic materials, including personal files on a laptop computer, may be searched at random, without suspicion.[69]
Expanded:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception
Looks to me like this might end up in the courts, but it is not an extreme stretch of existing settled law.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
While you are correct about the Border Protection exemptions, they are only allowed if the person searched has come in contact with the border.
At an international airport, those rules would apply to an international flight, but not to a domestic flight operating out of the same airport.
In 1986, during my police career, I was cross trained by the US Customs Service because we operated on the Canadian border.
Phoebe Vet: I think you are right but I also think that it is the line of "reasoning" being used. While I appreciate the need for air security, which goes back quite awhile (to the late 60's?), much of what has happened since 9-11 provides only the illusion of air security, as Bucyrus points out, with some infringing on constitutional rights (so-called Patriot Act provisions), as you have suggested.
I love that you are putting a price on a human life. Thats pretty sick actually. It doesn't matter how many people die, one is too many. You CANNOT put a price on a human life.
Eh lets cut funding for emergency rooms, only a few thousand die there a year compared to tons in traffic accidents. Might as well abolish money for Fire Departments, more people drown than die in fires.
I'm afraid? Show me where I said I was afraid. Im not afraid, merely not wearing a dark cloth over my eyes and repeating "there are no bad guys, there are no bad guys"
Having trained people spot suspicious people? Sure sounds good but wait until a Muslim or Black person gets stopped and it turns out to be a false alarm. Rev Jesse Jackson will gallop in on his horse waving the racism flag and blowing the racial profiling trumpet as loud as he can.
I personally think this one sounds great:
http://bobmccarty.com/2010/01/11/cia-deaths-terrorism-could-have-been-prevented/
Not intrusive, quick and easy.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
coborn35 It doesn 't matter how many people die, one is too many. You CANNOT put a price on a human life.
It doesn 't matter how many people die, one is too many. You CANNOT put a price on a human life.
True, but not for the reason you imply -- that that life is a pearl beyond price, worth any expense, inconvenience or loss of civil liberties to the rest of us. If there is no price, it is because nobody knows what it is, that's all.
Question: If we move heaven and Earth to save one human life, at a cost (as described above) that extends into perpetuity -- and the *** fool steps in front of a bus the next day -- was our heroic exertion worth it?
coborn35 I love that you are putting a price on a human life. Thats pretty sick actually. It doesn't matter how many people die, one is too many. You CANNOT put a price on a human life. Eh lets cut funding for emergency rooms, only a few thousand die there a year compared to tons in traffic accidents. Might as well abolish money for Fire Departments, more people drown than die in fires. I'm afraid? Show me where I said I was afraid. Im not afraid, merely not wearing a dark cloth over my eyes and repeating "there are no bad guys, there are no bad guys" Having trained people spot suspicious people? Sure sounds good but wait until a Muslim or Black person gets stopped and it turns out to be a false alarm. I personally think this one sounds great: http://bobmccarty.com/2010/01/11/cia-deaths-terrorism-could-have-been-prevented/ Not intrusive, quick and easy.
Having trained people spot suspicious people? Sure sounds good but wait until a Muslim or Black person gets stopped and it turns out to be a false alarm.
coborn35 I love that you are putting a price on a human life. Thats pretty sick actually. It doesn't matter how many people die, one is too many. You CANNOT put a price on a human life. Eh lets cut funding for emergency rooms, only a few thousand die there a year compared to tons in traffic accidents. Might as well abolish money for Fire Departments, more people drown than die in fires. I'm afraid? Show me where I said I was afraid. Im not afraid, merely not wearing a dark cloth over my eyes and repeating "there are no bad guys, there are no bad guys" Having trained people spot suspicious people? Sure sounds good but wait until a Muslim or Black person gets stopped and it turns out to be a false alarm. Rev Jesse Jackson will gallop in on his horse waving the racism flag and blowing the racial profiling trumpet as loud as he can. I personally think this one sounds great: http://bobmccarty.com/2010/01/11/cia-deaths-terrorism-could-have-been-prevented/ Not intrusive, quick and easy.
Russell
I think we're getting a little melodramatic and overly-emotional here.
The problem is, security safeguards need to be implace to protect the flying public. All you have to do is review the last few security attempts that have been peretrated on passenger airlines to see that such a threat is real and indeed viable.
The reality is, we will never go back to the day of the simple walk-through X-Ray machine dating from the 1970's. The actions of al-Qa'ida have seen to that.
I'm not going to wrap myself around the constitution, or espouse to be a lawyer (which I am not)...or worse a civil libertarian. This is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed; hopefully the guidelines of which will be adjusted accordingly.
My question to the posters of this thread then is ...if not this security measure...then what would you want to see in place...or what would you recommend in its place?
In other words, how do you effectively protect the security of the flying public from threats (real or perceived)?
coborn35 I love that you are putting a price on a human life. Thats pretty sick actually. It doesn't matter how many people die, one is too many. You CANNOT put a price on a human life. I'm afraid? Show me where I said I was afraid. Im not afraid, merely not wearing a dark cloth over my eyes and repeating "there are no bad guys, there are no bad guys" Having trained people spot suspicious people? Sure sounds good but wait until a Muslim or Black person gets stopped and it turns out to be a false alarm. Rev Jesse Jackson will gallop in on his horse waving the racism flag and blowing the racial profiling trumpet as loud as he can.
Who is suggesting putting a price on human life? If we did security the most effective way, it would probably be a lot cheaper than this current TSA nonsense. And it probably has the potential to save more lives.
The kind of profiling that is being proposed for security is not just a matter of pulling every mideastern-looking person out of the line. It is much more sophisticated than that.
And who is suggesting that there are no bad guys? Nobody is saying that we don't need security. You seem to be arguing a position that nobody is opposing.
BucyrusWho is suggesting putting a price on human life? If we did security the most effective way, it would probably be a lot cheaper than this current TSA nonsense. And it probably has the potential to save more lives.
I would agree with you up to a point.
Security should be effective and it should be efficient.
You cannot, however, assign a price to security.
Murray My question to theposters of this thread then is ...if not this security measure...then what would you want to see in place...or what would you recommend in its place? In other words, how do you effectively protect the security of the flying public from threats (real or perceived)?
My question to theposters of this thread then is ...if not this security measure...then what would you want to see in place...or what would you recommend in its place?
Go back to Page 1 of this thread and re-read jchnhtfd's post of 11-15.
Murray Bucyrus: Who is suggesting putting a price on human life? If we did security the most effective way, it would probably be a lot cheaper than this current TSA nonsense. And it probably has the potential to save more lives. I would agree with you up to a point. Secrity should be effective and it should be efficient. You cannot, however, assign a price to security.
Bucyrus: Who is suggesting putting a price on human life? If we did security the most effective way, it would probably be a lot cheaper than this current TSA nonsense. And it probably has the potential to save more lives.
Secrity should be effective and it should be efficient.
When I say that the best method of security would be cheaper, I am not saying we should do it just because it is cheaper. I am saying we should do it because it is the most effective. And it is cheaper to boot. We save more lives for less money.
Here is a discussion of the method I am advocating:
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-01-11/opinion/yeffet.air.security.israel_1_airport-security-isaac-yeffet-el-al?_s=PM:OPINION
dakotafred Murray: My question to theposters of this thread then is ...if not this security measure...then what would you want to see in place...or what would you recommend in its place? In other words, how do you effectively protect the security of the flying public from threats (real or perceived)? Go back to Page 1 of this thread and re-read jchnhtfd's post of 11-15.
Murray: My question to theposters of this thread then is ...if not this security measure...then what would you want to see in place...or what would you recommend in its place? In other words, how do you effectively protect the security of the flying public from threats (real or perceived)?
Its funny that you mention that post. I did in fact read it yesterday.
One point that I'd like to raise regarding his comments on El-Al. Getting on an El-Al plane is not as easy as he suggests. You pass through a minimum of four different security checkpoints and your baggage does not leave your side until you are about to get on the El-Al plane. And while the Israeli's are eons ahead of the US in terms of profiling pasengers, their security asks pointed (some might say intrusive) questions as to where they have been and where they are going.
Regarding the posters somment on people being sheep, well...I don't buy that. By nature the traveling public desires to be safe, while at the same time it does not wnat its "personal space" infringed...something that the current TSA policy apparently is now doing.
BucyrusWhen I say that the best method of security would be cheaper, I am not saying we should do it just because it is cheaper. I am saying we should do it because it is the most effective. And it is cheaper to boot. We save more lives for less money. Here is a discussion of the method I am advocating: http://articles.cnn.com/2010-01-11/opinion/yeffet.air.security.israel_1_airport-security-isaac-yeffet-el-al?_s=PM:OPINION
Good article!
I think we're pretty much in agreement Bucyrus.
Bucyrus coborn35: I love that you are putting a price on a human life. Thats pretty sick actually. It doesn't matter how many people die, one is too many. You CANNOT put a price on a human life. I'm afraid? Show me where I said I was afraid. Im not afraid, merely not wearing a dark cloth over my eyes and repeating "there are no bad guys, there are no bad guys" Having trained people spot suspicious people? Sure sounds good but wait until a Muslim or Black person gets stopped and it turns out to be a false alarm. Rev Jesse Jackson will gallop in on his horse waving the racism flag and blowing the racial profiling trumpet as loud as he can. Who is suggesting putting a price on human life? If we did security the most effective way, it would probably be a lot cheaper than this current TSA nonsense. And it probably has the potential to save more lives. The kind of profiling that is being proposed for security is not just a matter of pulling every mideastern-looking person out of the line. It is much more sophisticated than that. And who is suggesting that there are no bad guys? Nobody is saying that we don't need security. You seem to be arguing a position that nobody is opposing.
coborn35: I love that you are putting a price on a human life. Thats pretty sick actually. It doesn't matter how many people die, one is too many. You CANNOT put a price on a human life. I'm afraid? Show me where I said I was afraid. Im not afraid, merely not wearing a dark cloth over my eyes and repeating "there are no bad guys, there are no bad guys" Having trained people spot suspicious people? Sure sounds good but wait until a Muslim or Black person gets stopped and it turns out to be a false alarm. Rev Jesse Jackson will gallop in on his horse waving the racism flag and blowing the racial profiling trumpet as loud as he can.
Thats how I win all my arguments
I made a trip to Ecuador once and had to enter customs at Quito. The guy who was inspecting people’s luggage at the head of the line was about 7’-6” tall and wearing a military officer’s dress uniform. He would ask each person in line to open a suitcase. Then, while the person who owned the suitcase watched the agent’s hand rummaging in their suitcase, the agent only watched the suitcase owner’s eyes and demeanor to see if there was any reaction.
Bucyrus I made a trip to Ecuador once and had to enter customs at Quito. The guy who was inspecting people’s luggage at the head of the line was about 7’-6” tall and wearing a military officer’s dress uniform. He would ask each person in line to open a suitcase. Then, while the person who owned the suitcase watched the agent’s hand rummaging in their suitcase, the agent only watched the suitcase owner’s eyes and demeanor to see if there was any reaction.
My most intrusive customs check was a flight to Saudi Arabia.
They Saudi customs officials left nothing unturned in my luggage...I must have looked too "infidel" to them.
And of course, if you are arrested and charged with a crime, like murder, then by your statement, if you didn't kill someone you don't need a attorney, right?
So why don't we just toss out the Miranda warning altogether?
Look, I deal with the TSA every day, they show up and ask for the TIH report for the location of chlorine tank cars in our yard, then they go check and see if the cars are really there..
Funny thing was, had one of them standing right beside a tank car full of hydrocyanatic acid, complaining that the chlorine cars were to hard to identify from a distance....then trying to impress me with how dangerous some chemicals are...duffus was in the shadow of a tank car full of something that, if it leaks out, kills people, period, no maybe about it.
But here is a Federal employee, well, really a contractor with Lockheed Martin, trying to impress me with his knowledge of how "chlorine turns into a gas when it leaks out" and how it "can cause serious respiratory inflammation if inhaled"
No, really?
So I asked him about the car he was leaning against, and he had no idea what it was.
The thing has huge red billboards on all side warning that if derailed, to not attempt to re rail, call 1-800...skull and crossbones all over it, bright white car with a huge red stripe around it length wise, and "inhalation hazard", "Do Not Hump or Cut Off in Motion" stenciled all over it, but he had no clue.
Your tax dollars at work.
Hey,, How about that Bill of Rights?
Shoot, who needs a Constitution when we have the TSA and other government agencies to watch out for us.
Coborn,
Your right, it is a different time...Americans have lost the guts and gumption of my father's generation.
You remember those guys, the ones who marched across Europe, and island hopped from Pearl Harbor to Japan, all to guarantee that you have, (had) the right to go about your personal business without having to check in with your local Gestapo officer?
coborn35 Yeah? Is everyone boarding an airplane getting "strip searched, X-rayed, patted down, and background investigated"? Didn't think so. Personally I think this type of thinking is what led to all the terrorist attacks. "It can NEVER happen to me" "No one would ever do this" Wake up and smell the coffee people. There are bad people out there. Even if only one plane bombing is stopped, it is worth it. Will there ever be another one? Maybe not, but we are not giving up any freedoms by getting searched. If you have nothing to hide, nothing will happen and you will move on your merry way. Its not the 1960's anymore guys. You cannot go to bed with your doors unlocked. Its a different time now. Wake up reality.
Yeah? Is everyone boarding an airplane getting "strip searched, X-rayed, patted down, and background investigated"? Didn't think so. Personally I think this type of thinking is what led to all the terrorist attacks. "It can NEVER happen to me" "No one would ever do this" Wake up and smell the coffee people. There are bad people out there. Even if only one plane bombing is stopped, it is worth it. Will there ever be another one? Maybe not, but we are not giving up any freedoms by getting searched. If you have nothing to hide, nothing will happen and you will move on your merry way. Its not the 1960's anymore guys. You cannot go to bed with your doors unlocked. Its a different time now. Wake up reality.
[]
23 17 46 11
Fred,
Here is a idea, been tried before, and worked quite well.
It requires sacrifice and hard work and often death, but...
How about we really take the fight to them?
Ever seen what a CBG, (Carrier Battle Group) can accomplish when you take away the restraints?
The terroris want to live in something close to the third century, and you know what, some folks like myself would be quite happy to help them achieve that goal.
The price of freedom is high.
How would you like some things, like your postings here, to be read by a censor before they were approved to be posted? Never know how much of a security risk this forum could pose….
How would you like some things, like your postings here, to be read by a censor before they were approved to be posted?
Never know how much of a security risk this forum could pose….
Muslim groups have asked Homeland Security Janet Napolitano if Muslim women wearing hijabs may be excused from the intrusive security screening because Muslim women have a heightened sense of modesty. Ms. Napolitano said, “Adjustments will be made where they need to be made, and on this particular issue, there is more to come.”
Here is the link to her comments: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/napolitano-on-muslim-women-pat-downs-more-to-come/
edblysard Coborn, Your right, it is a different time...Americans have lost the guts and gumption of my father's generation. You remember those guys, the ones who marched across Europe, and island hopped from Pearl Harbor to Japan, all to guarantee that you have, (had) the right to go about your personal business without having to check in with your local Gestapo officer? coborn35: Yeah? Is everyone boarding an airplane getting "strip searched, X-rayed, patted down, and background investigated"? Didn't think so. Personally I think this type of thinking is what led to all the terrorist attacks. "It can NEVER happen to me" "No one would ever do this" Wake up and smell the coffee people. There are bad people out there. Even if only one plane bombing is stopped, it is worth it. Will there ever be another one? Maybe not, but we are not giving up any freedoms by getting searched. If you have nothing to hide, nothing will happen and you will move on your merry way. Its not the 1960's anymore guys. You cannot go to bed with your doors unlocked. Its a different time now. Wake up reality. []
coborn35: Yeah? Is everyone boarding an airplane getting "strip searched, X-rayed, patted down, and background investigated"? Didn't think so. Personally I think this type of thinking is what led to all the terrorist attacks. "It can NEVER happen to me" "No one would ever do this" Wake up and smell the coffee people. There are bad people out there. Even if only one plane bombing is stopped, it is worth it. Will there ever be another one? Maybe not, but we are not giving up any freedoms by getting searched. If you have nothing to hide, nothing will happen and you will move on your merry way. Its not the 1960's anymore guys. You cannot go to bed with your doors unlocked. Its a different time now. Wake up reality.
You remember the kids I graduated with, who are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan? Because the people from YOUR generation are sending them there? Guess only the glorified and "good" wars count. You see, at the root of things it is your generation that is paranoid and passing all these laws, not mine.
There are three questions here. Will the x-ray body scan (or more intrusive body pat-down) encourage Amtrak ridership? Yes, especially if the train trip is no longer than overnight. Does Amtrak have a marketing opportunity in avoiding these [more intrusive] scans? Perhaps, it all depends on how long the more iintrusive scans keep up. My best guess is the furor being raised over the scans will prompt Congress to hold hearings, and there might be changes. Will scans similar to the more intrusive airline passenger body scans be extended to trains? Such scans might be extended to trains operating out of the busier passenger stations such as Los Angeles or New York, but not out of stations such as Tyrone, PA or Benson, AZ which are way stations. But, if a member of Congress is exposed to an intrusive body scan then all bets are off. The more intrusive scans could be history.
Bucyrus The point is that there is a much more effective way to perform security. True security would make us safer without having a bunch of bureaucrats performing obnoxious body searches on everybody. True security is best accomplished by a few highly qualified experts performing intensely perceptive profiling and scrutiny on a selective basis where individual cases are red-flagged. This TSA nonsense is just another bloated government program justifying its existence to the public by performing security theater.
The point is that there is a much more effective way to perform security. True security would make us safer without having a bunch of bureaucrats performing obnoxious body searches on everybody. True security is best accomplished by a few highly qualified experts performing intensely perceptive profiling and scrutiny on a selective basis where individual cases are red-flagged. This TSA nonsense is just another bloated government program justifying its existence to the public by performing security theater.
Bucyrus has it right. Additionally, take away Congressional ID cards. I believe they act as a signal to the TSA to go easy on the presumably august personage! If some of those large egos got groped regularly or had images of their privates circulating on the net, things would change in a hurry.
I have a question -- when leaving Israel, are the enhanced security procedures applied to all airlines or just El-Al? It would seem to me an El-Al airliner is sort of a Moby Dick for terriorists, and they have managed to go a very long time without incident.
I know your generation quite well.
In fact, one of your generation, instead of hiding his head in the sand or becoming a sheep or herd animal, just won the Congressional Medal of Honor for his actions.
First time it has been awarded to a living person in decades.
You should listen to his interview on the news...he gets it.
Nothing about war is good, although we should glorify our brave young men and women who don the uniform and fight for our freedoms.
coborn35 edblysard: Coborn, Your right, it is a different time...Americans have lost the guts and gumption of my father's generation. You remember those guys, the ones who marched across Europe, and island hopped from Pearl Harbor to Japan, all to guarantee that you have, (had) the right to go about your personal business without having to check in with your local Gestapo officer? coborn35: Yeah? Is everyone boarding an airplane getting "strip searched, X-rayed, patted down, and background investigated"? Didn't think so. Personally I think this type of thinking is what led to all the terrorist attacks. "It can NEVER happen to me" "No one would ever do this" Wake up and smell the coffee people. There are bad people out there. Even if only one plane bombing is stopped, it is worth it. Will there ever be another one? Maybe not, but we are not giving up any freedoms by getting searched. If you have nothing to hide, nothing will happen and you will move on your merry way. Its not the 1960's anymore guys. You cannot go to bed with your doors unlocked. Its a different time now. Wake up reality. [] You remember the kids I graduated with, who are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan? Because the people from YOUR generation are sending them there? Guess only the glorified and "good" wars count. You see, at the root of things it is your generation that is paranoid and passing all these laws, not mine.
edblysard: Coborn, Your right, it is a different time...Americans have lost the guts and gumption of my father's generation. You remember those guys, the ones who marched across Europe, and island hopped from Pearl Harbor to Japan, all to guarantee that you have, (had) the right to go about your personal business without having to check in with your local Gestapo officer? coborn35: Yeah? Is everyone boarding an airplane getting "strip searched, X-rayed, patted down, and background investigated"? Didn't think so. Personally I think this type of thinking is what led to all the terrorist attacks. "It can NEVER happen to me" "No one would ever do this" Wake up and smell the coffee people. There are bad people out there. Even if only one plane bombing is stopped, it is worth it. Will there ever be another one? Maybe not, but we are not giving up any freedoms by getting searched. If you have nothing to hide, nothing will happen and you will move on your merry way. Its not the 1960's anymore guys. You cannot go to bed with your doors unlocked. Its a different time now. Wake up reality. []
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