A level S is the highest form of employee probation. Breaking the same rule while on probation can likely result in a discharge.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
BigJim Murphy Siding BucyrusSurely you jest Well, no. One of our sons is left-handed. He's also left-footed. If he were getting on or off a train, he'd lead with his left foot no matter which way the train was headed. I'm right-handed, and also right-footed. I'd lead with my right foot, no matter which way the train was headed. Maybe that's the reason that the description involves leading and trailing foot? If I'm facing a stopped train, and tried to step up left foot first, I'd probably end up on the ground. Try looking at it this way; If the train is moving right to left, you get up with your right foot and plant it in the right corner of the stirrup or step. If the train is moving left to right, you get up with your left foot planting it in the left corner of the stirrup or step. You do it the same way if you are getting off. That is assuming that you are smart enough to be facing the equipment in the first place.
Murphy Siding BucyrusSurely you jest Well, no. One of our sons is left-handed. He's also left-footed. If he were getting on or off a train, he'd lead with his left foot no matter which way the train was headed. I'm right-handed, and also right-footed. I'd lead with my right foot, no matter which way the train was headed. Maybe that's the reason that the description involves leading and trailing foot? If I'm facing a stopped train, and tried to step up left foot first, I'd probably end up on the ground.
BucyrusSurely you jest
Try looking at it this way;
If the train is moving right to left, you get up with your right foot and plant it in the right corner of the stirrup or step. If the train is moving left to right, you get up with your left foot planting it in the left corner of the stirrup or step.
You do it the same way if you are getting off. That is assuming that you are smart enough to be facing the equipment in the first place.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
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Okay I see what you mean. But you are talking about a stationary train where getting on and off is like climbing or descending a stationary set of stairs. Even this is a little confusing because you descend the steps of a passenger car facing down the steps, whereas you descend the steps of a locomotive facing the opposite direction of your travel. In other words, you face the locomotive and descend the steps backwards.
For stationary steps of a passenger train, either going up or down, I would start with my right foot because I am right-handed, and I assume right-footed too, although I never thought about my footedness much. I guess I would lead with my right foot in starting a descent of locomotive steps too, although I would be descending backwards. A left-footed person would lead these moves with their left foot.
But the issue of this thread topic is the leaving the steps of a moving engine or stirrup of a moving car, and stepping onto the ground; and of stepping onto the steps of a moving engine or stirrup of a moving car, from the ground. For those moves, you lead with one foot or the other, depending on train travel direction in relation to which side of the track you are on. It makes no difference whether you are right or left footed.
Yes it matter which foot, get on with the lead foot, and slip, you will do a full face meet with the equipment.
If you use your trailing foot and slip, the motion will turn you away from the equipment.
Get off on the lead foot and it will jam or stab your foot into the ballast and you will learn how to do hand stands real quickly.
Get off on the trailing foot, and if needs be, you can drag the foot till you detrain.
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Murphy Siding Bucyrus Therefore: When alongside of a track, and facing the track in a direction perpendicular to the track; If a train is passing from your left to your right; Your left foot is the trailing foot. This is because your left foot is nearest the direction opposite the travel of the train (just like a trailing unit is nearest to the rear of the train). Doesn't it depend on whether you are left-footed, or right-footed? (Seriously.) If you are left-handed, you are generally left-footed as well, and walk leading with that foot. Watch kids playing soccer. You can quickly figure out which ones are left-handed.
Bucyrus Therefore: When alongside of a track, and facing the track in a direction perpendicular to the track; If a train is passing from your left to your right; Your left foot is the trailing foot. This is because your left foot is nearest the direction opposite the travel of the train (just like a trailing unit is nearest to the rear of the train).
This is because your left foot is nearest the direction opposite the travel of the train (just like a trailing unit is nearest to the rear of the train).
Surely you jest. Handedness does not enter into it. But using the designation of a person’s left foot and right foot to describe getting on and off would be infinitely more clear than using the terms, trailing foot and leading foot. Everybody knows their left foot from their right foot. And it is independent of handedness. But to accompany the designation of right foot / left foot, you need the train direction to be specified.
It is true that “trailing” and “leading” also automatically define the train direction, which is essential to describing the boarding / un-boarding procedure. But the terminology needs a definition. Otherwise it is gibberish.
BigJim Did you not just contradict yourself?
Did you not just contradict yourself?
Not that I can see. How so?
Oh I think you must be referring back to earlier post where I asked why the first foot to hit the stirrup would not be the lead foot. This leading foot/trailing foot has got to be the worst terminology possible. I only posted above on this page to pin down the definition of trailing foot / leading foot, so we could all agree on that. From there, it ought be possible to describe which foot to use when getting off and on.
Therefore:
When alongside of a track, and facing the track in a direction perpendicular to the track;
If a train is passing from your left to your right;
Your left foot is the trailing foot.
Ulrich Lead foot..would that be the right or the left?...
Lead foot..would that be the right or the left?...
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Paul_D_North_JrSomeone in a major railroad's Risk Management Dept. must have compiled statistics on the time and $ lost from these kinds of injuries, and compared it to the Industrial Engineering guys' estimates of the time and money saved by doing it . . . and the net for lowest total cost came up as "Don't be doing that any more". - Paul North.
- Paul North.
Paul,It's more like the RR's are afraid of this "sue their butts off" society that we have evolved into today. Everyone now a days has that "Palm Trees in their eyes" look. It's a real shame because it doesn't stop there. Look what happened to the NS Steam program for one.
Deggesty BucyrusBut I don’t get this “trailing foot” terminology. When getting on, why would the first foot to hit the stirrup be called the trailing foot? As I understand it, as you face a train that is moving from your right to your left, your left foot is the lead foot and your right foot is your trailing foot; if the train is moving from your left to your right, your right foot is your lead foot and your left foot is your trailing foot. I misinterpreted your previous question; sorry.
BucyrusBut I don’t get this “trailing foot” terminology. When getting on, why would the first foot to hit the stirrup be called the trailing foot?
As I understand it, as you face a train that is moving from your right to your left, your left foot is the lead foot and your right foot is your trailing foot; if the train is moving from your left to your right, your right foot is your lead foot and your left foot is your trailing foot.
I misinterpreted your previous question; sorry.
You still have misinterpreted the action. As Bucyrus notes, when getting on, the first foot to hit the stirrup is your lead foot. In your case above, moving from right to left, the right foot is the lead foot, because that is the foot that goes into the stirrup FIRST. Why is this so hard to understand? Maybe we are getting down to the real reason why some people wouldn't want to get on and off moving equipment.
I do miss being able to mount/dismount moving equipment. Done properly, it's not that hazardous. It also can make many switching operations more efficient. Saved me miles of walking!
Of course, we used to do things that would curl a current newbie's toe nails. Maybe I'll tell, after I retire.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
Johnny
Paul_D_North_Jr Ulrich Personally I wouldn't do it....because there's nothing in it for me. Sure, the railroad saves in terms of time, maybe a little bit of fuel and wear and tear on equipment, but why risk life and limb if there's no benefit to YOU? Do you get paid more for thae added risk? Of course not. So it would make sense to only get on and off when the train is completely at a stand still...even if your employer does allow you to mount/dismount while the train is in motion...you shouldn't do it. [snip] I could see where the employees would be in favor of doing it if the time saved thereby came back to their benefit in the form of an 'early quit' . . . Someone in a major railroad's Risk Management Dept. must have compiled statistics on the time and $ lost from these kinds of injuries, and compared it to the Industrial Engineering guys' estimates of the time and money saved by doing it . . . and the net for lowest total cost came up as "Don't be doing that any more". - Paul North.
Ulrich Personally I wouldn't do it....because there's nothing in it for me. Sure, the railroad saves in terms of time, maybe a little bit of fuel and wear and tear on equipment, but why risk life and limb if there's no benefit to YOU? Do you get paid more for thae added risk? Of course not. So it would make sense to only get on and off when the train is completely at a stand still...even if your employer does allow you to mount/dismount while the train is in motion...you shouldn't do it. [snip]
I could see where the employees would be in favor of doing it if the time saved thereby came back to their benefit in the form of an 'early quit' . . .
Someone in a major railroad's Risk Management Dept. must have compiled statistics on the time and $ lost from these kinds of injuries, and compared it to the Industrial Engineering guys' estimates of the time and money saved by doing it . . . and the net for lowest total cost came up as "Don't be doing that any more".
Except at CN where the bean counters have come to a different conclusion.
Bucyrus I understand how to get on and off moving equipment, and I have never considered it to be stressful on the body. Walking through the snow can be a lot more stressful. But I don’t get this “trailing foot” terminology. When getting on, why would the first foot to hit the stirrup be called the trailing foot? Regarding the good old days being too dangerous, I am not sure where you draw the line. In the 1800s, brakemen and switchmen routinely lost their fingers and hands, or were completely crushed when coupling cars. The need for that was eliminated. But up until recently, brakemen and switchmen continued to ride on top of cars and were either knocked off by bridges or fell off all too often. The need for that was eliminated. Then the need to get on off of moving equipment was eliminated. Somewhere along the way, trainmen were banned from riding footboards on the forward-moving end of a locomotive, but could still ride on the trailing footboards. Then they eliminated footboards. Now, the FRA says that railroad cars have been coupled and uncoupled manually, which inherently creates risk for the operator. Therefore, a need exits to minimize this risk by physically getting the operator away from coupling operations. If they eliminate too much risk, there won't be anything left to do. Interesting point...and in answer to that I would point to an article in September Trains about MMA and how they are going to single person crews to cut cost. The job is changing....where some tasks and risks are eliminated others will crop up. Look at MMA...with one person on the train doing all the work of operating the engine and switching out cars...jumping on and off moving trains becomes a nonissue..however that person will be faced with many more challenges that the 2 and 4 person crews of the past didn't have to contend with. Just imagine...it is a cold Maine winter night...the snow is coming down and visibility is near zero... you're the ONLY crew on board and responsible for a locomotive or three and 60 cars.. anything goes wrong and you're hoofing it through the snow on your own..and you on your own have to get things going again.. A good example where one road is focused on safety as it needs to be but also in the process of making the job alot more challenging for that single on board crew member.
I understand how to get on and off moving equipment, and I have never considered it to be stressful on the body. Walking through the snow can be a lot more stressful. But I don’t get this “trailing foot” terminology. When getting on, why would the first foot to hit the stirrup be called the trailing foot?
Regarding the good old days being too dangerous, I am not sure where you draw the line. In the 1800s, brakemen and switchmen routinely lost their fingers and hands, or were completely crushed when coupling cars. The need for that was eliminated. But up until recently, brakemen and switchmen continued to ride on top of cars and were either knocked off by bridges or fell off all too often. The need for that was eliminated. Then the need to get on off of moving equipment was eliminated. Somewhere along the way, trainmen were banned from riding footboards on the forward-moving end of a locomotive, but could still ride on the trailing footboards. Then they eliminated footboards.
Now, the FRA says that railroad cars have been coupled and uncoupled manually, which inherently creates risk for the operator. Therefore, a need exits to minimize this risk by physically getting the operator away from coupling operations. If they eliminate too much risk, there won't be anything left to do.
BigJimFor you kinder, gentler Americans...Nobody moves, Nobody gets hurt.
For you kinder, gentler Americans...Nobody moves, Nobody gets hurt.
Yeah, but why tear up your body to make the RR even more money? I mean, seriously, how much time are you going to lose to stop your train to get on and off?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
BigJim Folks, the "Golden Age of Railroading" is long gone!
Folks, the "Golden Age of Railroading" is long gone!
And good riddance to a lot of it. A lot of that golden age stuff was pure crap that only benefited the company at the expense of its workers. That can stay in the past.
I also know enough RRers that have screwed up backs, knees, ankles, and legs due to a lifetime of jumping on and off equipment. And there's always the story of how they once dismounted while going a little too fast and imitated a tumbleweed....
I'm surprised roads still allow this... absolutely no reason for it.
Personally I wouldn't do it....because there's nothing in it for me. Sure, the railroad saves in terms of time, maybe a little bit of fuel and wear and tear on equipment, but why risk life and limb if there's no benefit to YOU? Do you get paid more for thae added risk? Of course not. So it would make sense to only get on and off when the train is completely at a stand still...even if your employer does allow you to mount/dismount while the train is in motion...you shouldn't do it. In my 25 years in transportation I've seen enough accidents...all of them could have been prevented...many involved lifelong injuries over something stupid...like climbing down from equipment properly... note that the president of the carrier or the managers aren't the one's injured.
I have seen this practice frequently in Swiss and other European stations or yars. However, it would be exstremely dangerous to between cars to couple them before both cars stands still.
Getting on and off a tramway (not a train). We did it regularly in Zurich with older rolling-stock with open vestibules. The newer one had doors that closed before the car began to move / did not open until it stood still.
"To be quite honest, I probably would not have seeked rr employment if you still had to bail on & off while moving. Just the impact alone on your the body takes a toll after yrs & yrs of the pounding."
Gee whiz! What a bunch of wimps are on this forum. Oh the shame of it all. Back when we could get on or off moving equipment, even the men at retirement age could swing on and off with the best of 'em.
I guess if the new guys with their "walkie-talkies" had to give hand signals instead of talking into the microphone, they wouldn't have signed on either.
The very first thing we were taught, even before hand signals, even before they issued us radios, was how to entrain and detrain moving equipment.
We were informed that if we could not do this, we could not work at the PTRA, which is a Class III switching/terminal railroad.
Its easy, actually, and for me, a lot less wear and tear on the knees and ankles.
If the train is approaching you from right to left, you face the movement, grab the grab iron, place your right foot,(trailing foot) in the stirrup and just stand up, the momentum of the train simply picks you up.
You dismount in the reverse.
Select where you wish to detrain, crouch down some in the stirrup with your trailing foot somewhat out and behind you, then step off facing the movement, placing the trailing foot down first, then releasing your hand hold...the momentum will pivot you away from the train, so if you slip or stumble, you fall away, not towards the train.
It looks easy, and it is, especially when done by someone who has been getting on and off this way their entire career.
Personally, I prefer getting on moving equipment, all it requires is a small amount of common sense, if the train is moving too fast to do so safely, you tell the engineer to slow down.
Less stress on your legs, the train does all the work.
Go back and research the FRA website for personal accidents, and you will find more men hurt on cabooses because of slack action than were hurt getting on and off moving equipment.
Its as easy as stepping on and off an escalator.
Of course, in the name of risk management, we too can no longer entrain/detrain this way.
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