We can armchair quarterback this thing all day... but unless any of us were there - our guesses hold no merit.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Why wouldn't the dynamic do anything, Coburn? If he had the speed down and good dynamic, it should have brought it right down. Was it equipped with extended range dynamic? I don't know. I've never understood how he slapped it into eight notch power, thinking he'd put it in dynamic.
I've always thought he wasn't really paying attention and then, there it was, switch lined against him. Whoops, he thought he could save the situation but what would have been a run-through switch, became a nationwide story. It sucked to be him THAT day.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
All right you guys. Check out the Pentrex video "Working on the Santa Fe" , a series of ATSF training and promo films. The second film is about yard safety, and has a long session on mounting and dismounting correctly, including showing what happens if you do not do it correctly.
Phil
Timber Head Eastern Railroad "THE Railroad Through the Sierras"
I think if I was going to get off the unit like that, I'd give myself "3 step," in which case the engine might have revved up, but it wouldn't have gone anywhere.
I'll sign on with the "sounds fishy" crowd, though.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Yes, the official version sounds a little fishy.
Well, that's the official version....
My guess, and only a guess, would be the engineer realized he was about to run through a switch, slapped the throttle closed or so he thought, hit the independent, then bailed out and ran to line the switch ahead of the move....and didn't make it in time.
But the first version is what is in the FRA report as what the engineer told them.
23 17 46 11
edblysard As the engineer gets up from his seat he bumped the throttle with his hip, he did not realize this, exits the cab and goes to line the switch, at which point the locomotive begins to move, he tried to mount up but failed, (he was a pretty good sized fellow).
As the engineer gets up from his seat he bumped the throttle with his hip, he did not realize this, exits the cab and goes to line the switch, at which point the locomotive begins to move, he tried to mount up but failed, (he was a pretty good sized fellow).
I had sort or heard the details of how that runaway happened, but it left some lingering questions. I could see how the engineer could have bumped the throttle as he got up to exit the unit. But why was he not immediately alerted to the error upon hearing the engine rev up to throttle notch #4? I know there is a little lag time between the throttle movement and the engine response, but still, the engineer could have hardly even gotten out of the cab before the engine revved up.
I guess the reverser was left in the power position because, with the throttle in idle, the engineer saw no reason to place the reverser in neutral. But, considering the sound of the engine revving up when it should not have been, I don’t get how the engineer could have not suspected that something was amiss.
WSOR 3801 We do it all the time. We do a lot of switching, so stopping for every mount-dismount would cost too much time, and we would only get one days work done, instead of 1.5 or 2. There is a fairly big passage in the safety manual on the proper method (trailing foot). If you don't feel comfortable, or there is snow-ice-bad footing, it is perfectly fine to stop the move.
We do it all the time. We do a lot of switching, so stopping for every mount-dismount would cost too much time, and we would only get one days work done, instead of 1.5 or 2. There is a fairly big passage in the safety manual on the proper method (trailing foot). If you don't feel comfortable, or there is snow-ice-bad footing, it is perfectly fine to stop the move.
Hope you are being paid for 1.5 or 2 days work...
A job ain't worth destroying your body over. And if you get hurt, no RR is going to stand behind you.
Ok, here's the story on the CSX runaway.
Crew doubling over, conductor at the rear of the train, engineer stops to line a bad switch using the independent brake only, he is still pumping up the train line because they are going to couple up to another track and cut the air in.
That is normal, you don't waste air if you don't have to, it increases the time needed to pump up the next track.
I believe the event recorder showed the throttle in notch 4.
The lead and track were on a downward grade, the train sped up, the brake shoes eventually wore away...I remember seeing photos of the brake head, they too were pretty tore up.
Long story short, the police and CSX tried pushing the fuel cut off button with a broom handle, missed, then they tried shooting the same switch, which only destroyed the switch.
Fuel cut off switches are momentary switches, they have to be held down for a second, the switch grounds out a relay in the fuel pump wiring, opening the relay and both shutting off the pump, which starves the engine of fuel and shutting off the injectors.
At one point, the had a pick up truck pacing the train and a officer tried to board, but couldn't.
Finally, one employee realized that the train would slow down some as it approached a grade crossing, as it was a slight up hill grade, we saw footage of him mounting, he takes three running steps, grabs the hand holds with both hands, takes a few more running steps and pulls himself up on the first step...because he was running he landed on his leading foot, but in this instance that matters little.
He enters the cab, closes the throttle, centered the reverser and used the train brake to stop.
Because if this instance, the FRA called for a rule that required either a crew member be in the cab of a locomotive in "run" at all times, a crew member must be in the cab if the engineer leaves the cab, or, if the engineer is alone, before he may leave the locomotive he must set the independent brake fully, do a 20 psi brake pipe or train line reduction, isolate the locomotive, set the generator switch to off, tie the locomotive hand brake.
This same rule requires all locomotives in a consist be isolated, with hand brakes tied, when a crew leaves the consist un attended.
Oddly enough, with in a month of this incident, CSX had a light locomotive , a GP38 yard motor run away also, although that one was because the crew failed to tie the hand brake down, left the locomotive held in place by the independent brake only, and went home.
The locomotive died, the compressor of course shut off, and the faulty independent bled down, the locomotive was also on a slight grade, and it rolled something like 3 or 4 miles through several switches and several grade crossings, ended up out on a main where it dropped a signal, which alerted the dispatcher.
It stopped on its own on a flat area, up against a switch lined against it.
It was determined that this locomotive was also due its 92 day FRA inspection the following day, which would have caught the worn out independent brake valve.
Talk about bad coincidence.
tree68 DeggestyIt is too bad that the man who stopped the train was unable to show his technique for boarding.Grab both handrails and hope to heck your foot hits the step...
DeggestyIt is too bad that the man who stopped the train was unable to show his technique for boarding.
The technique for boarding under those higher speed circumstance require that the person run alongside of the train to try to match the speed of the train or at least get close to matching it. Then you modulate your speed to allow the engine railings to draw alongside of you, and grab the railings with both hands at the same time. Only after your hands make the grip, do you pull yourself up with your arms so you can plant your feet on the bottom step.
To run alongside of the train, you need to have a good clear stretch alongside of the track with no obstructions or significant vegetation. A wide grade crossing would be ideal. If your speed is less than the train speed, grabbing the railings might yank you off of your feet rather than break your grip on the railings. If that happens, you need to be prepared to rely on your arm strength to control your body position and get your feet planted on the bottom step; and to make sure your feet do not get swept under the steps and under the wheels.
That guy in the video of the runaway CSX train that was going to try to get on really did not even try. I think it would have been very doable with the technique I described. The main point is that you do not plant your foot onto the bottom step as a first move like you do with normal speed boarding. That would break your leg.
[Edit: add what I intended to quote]
Here is a YouTube video of the incident. Unfortunately it does not show the actual moment when the supervisor got on the engine, so you cannot tell if it was leading or trailing foot first! Sorry about the idiocy narration, it is from one of those sensationalistic reality news TV shows.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apsKBo8-zak
I believe the newest contributor to our forums could have done better in narrating the event. One thing that struck me was the mention of the use of the throttle in stopping the train--was the brake not needed?
It is too bad that the man who stopped the train was unable to show his technique for boarding.
Johnny
Yup.
Here is my manual for getting on and off of moving equipment:
The techniques for getting on and off moving equipment are described by the use of the terms, trailing and leading, which refer to the direction that the equipment is moving, and are defined as follows:
Leading is the direction the equipment is headed, and trailing is the direction opposite the direction that the equipment is headed.
When a person is to get on or off of moving equipment, they begin from a position of facing the centerline of the track, perpendicularly to the centerline, either standing alongside of the track intending to get on, or standing on the stirrup of a car or the steps of an engine intending to get off. In this starting position, one side of the person is facing the leading direction of the moving equipment, and the other side is facing the trailing direction of the moving equipment. Therefore, the right and left limbs of the person can be designated leading and trailing with respect to that direction of equipment travel.
GETTING ON MOVING EQUIPMENT:
Extend your trailing leg and place your trailing foot into the car stirrup or lowest engine step pocket, and reach with both arms to grab both railings of the engine steps or a rung of a car ladder. Your trailing foot will naturally be impacted by the trailing side of the stirrup or step pocket, and the force will tend to stand you up on your trailing leg. As it stands you up, place your leading foot into the step pocket or stirrup alongside of your trailing foot.
GETTING OFF MOVING EQUIPMENT METHOD #1:
Pivot your body on your trailing foot as you let go of the engine railing or car ladder rung with your leading hand. Continue pivoting until your entire body has rotated about 90 degrees, and is facing the direction of equipment travel, and your leading leg and foot are completely off of the engine step or car stirrup. As you pivot, bend the trailing leg to lower your body, and prepare to step onto the ground with your leading leg. When your leading foot hits the ground, let go of the engine railing or car ladder rung with your trailing hand, and bring your trailing leg forward to take the next step on the ground.
GETTING OFF MOVING EQUIPMENT METHOD #2:
Take your trailing leg off of the engine steps or car stirrup, and cross it over behind your leading leg. Bend your leading leg to lower your body, and prepare to step onto the ground with your trailing leg. When your trailing foot impacts the ground, the force will tend to rotate your body away from the equipment. As it does so, let the rotation disengage your leading foot from the engine steps or car stirrup, while at the same time, let go of the engine railing or car ladder rung with your leading hand. As this rotation on your trailing leg continues, bring your leading foot down to the ground to take the next step, and let go of the engine railing or car ladder rung with your trailing hand.
jeffhergertAccidents come from doing it in the wrong place or at too high of a speed.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
jeffhergertIt is very clear to those of us who have been taught, and actually done it. I think some of the confusion comes from trying to convey in words what really needs to be seen. Accidents come from doing it in the wrong place or at too high of a speed. Jeff
It is very clear to those of us who have been taught, and actually done it. I think some of the confusion comes from trying to convey in words what really needs to be seen.
Accidents come from doing it in the wrong place or at too high of a speed.
Jeff
Yeah, the Male species does have a lot of trouble with this concept. Some never get a second chance to try when they should have never tried in the first place.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Back in 2001 a CSX supervisor had to jump on a loco moving 12 mph and he was 52. He made it and only one time to try.
The loco was pulling a 47 car freight with no engineer and was being slowed by a CSX GP40 that had caught and coupled to the last car so someone could jump on the loco and shut it down. This chase loco ran unloaded, “backwards” at up to 60 mph to catch the wayward freight.
This incident became the basis for the new train movie, “Unstoppable” which no way resembles the original incident..
The mere fact that after 54 posts, it still isn't very clear how to do this suggests a lack of good, standardized practices. No wonder there are accidents.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
jeffhergertI had a training booklet, I think I gave it to the B&SV to use, that showed both leading and trailing foot methods to dismount moving equipment.
Well that is very interesting to learn that there actually were two different acceptable methods of dismounting, and that I was not just imagining things. To me, the trailing-foot-first dismount seems a bit odd.
With that method, depending on where your foot hits the ground in relation to your body, it might swing you around. But it also might flip you over backwards. It also seems weird to make contact with you trailing foot with your straight trailing leg crossed over behind your leading leg. It seems like that would have a tendency to break a tendon in the trailing knee joint, break the trailing angle, or injure the trailing hip joint.
I had a training booklet, I think I gave it to the B&SV to use, that showed both leading and trailing foot methods to dismount moving equipment.
Myself, I think the trailing foot method is safer, but I won't argue the point. I've never done the other method. I can't recall seeing it done, but may have many years ago. Since we can't get off moving equipment (except in emergencies, but then your in trouble for getting into that situation) the point is moot.
Bucyrus I wonder about the standardization of the dismounting practice of getting off trailing foot first. I know at least one road where the standard dismounting practice was to dismount leading foot first. You would simply let go with your leading hand, and at the same time, you would disengage your leading foot, and then pivot 90 degrees outward and hit the ground with your leading foot first. It is as natural as can be. There is no need to rely on ground contact to cause your body to rotate. You rotate it yourself before you make ground contact.
That's how we were taught...I never fell coming off with the leading foot, but never quite got the motion for dismounting with the trailing foot down.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
I wonder about the standardization of the dismounting practice of getting off trailing foot first. I know at least one road where the standard dismounting practice was to dismount leading foot first. You would simply let go with your leading hand, and at the same time, you would disengage your leading foot, and then pivot 90 degrees outward and hit the ground with your leading foot first. It is as natural as can be.
There is no need to rely on ground contact to cause your body to rotate. You rotate it yourself before you make ground contact.
Many ways to look at a situation that could have dangerous outcomes.
Thank You.
Note that as each person Paul points out detrains, the momentum of the trains movement and their body mechanics spins them away from the train.
And, as they entrain, the same momentum/ mechanics picks them up, although the young lady does have to pull herself up some...average height people do not have to exert as much effort, but short folks like me and she do.
But the effort is no more that that needed to take the first step up a flight of stairs.
Note also that going from the stirrup to the crossover platform was done in the same movement again using the momentum of the train, the lady takes one step up in the stirrup and the next step up to the platform, all in a fluid movement.
With standing equipment you have to both pull with your arms and push with a leg to move your body mass and weight up onto the car.
Of particular interest is the close up of the lady placing her foot in the tank car stirrup, note the movement of the train and her natural placement put the trailing foot against the trailing edge of the stirrup. in the corner as it were.
Just like the stirrup on a saddle, once your foot is there, its very hard to remove it or for it to slip, and very secure, you let the train do most of the lifting.
It becomes second nature.
One thing that was drummed into our heads was this...if the train is moving fast enough that you have to think about it, the train is moving to fast for you to safely mount.
And you were expected to tell the engineer to slow down, or stop if necessary.
And on a personal note, tank cars are for me at least, the easiest to entrain and the most comfortable to ride, note the young lady positions herself on the crossover platform behind the hand rail, so any unexpected slack can not toss her off.
Ulrich That's what I thought...under the careers section on CN's website they have a clip of what the conductor's job entails..and in the clip they show a couple of crew members jumping off a moving train.. [snip] http://www.cn.ca/en/conductor-video.htm
http://www.cn.ca/en/conductor-video.htm
Interesting video about almost all of the aspects of the conductor's job, such as ''CN conductors are always ready to report for their next shift - 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year'' - isn't there an ''Hours of Service Law'' up north ?
The video is about 5 mins., 41 secs. long - here's where/ when the several segments pertaining to this discussion are:
Thanks for sharing that, Ulrich.
- Paul North.
I was once told that a person's hands have so much gripping strength that they can hold a grip on grab irons against a pulling force that can pull the upper arms out of the shoulder sockets.
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