Its too bad so many have taken affront with what Frailey had to say. At least, maybe, he got some to think about what they and/or fellow fans do or not do and to talk about it...it being "being a railfan". Yes, his view is opinion, and yes I pretty much understand and agree with most of what he said. Even still, if we all come away with the understanding that being a railfan can be practiced in so many different ways and, more important, to recognize and respect those different practices.
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I still wonder what you were 'convicted' of, but that is another story. I think Fred got it right. I did the ex-SP 4449 trip over the Rocky Mountains, in "NYC 3" last year. I didn't take "picture-#1" with my Nikon D50, or my film camera. I left my videocams at home. I was having too much fun! Living in the area, I, kind'a, was the 'tour guide' for my fellow PV travelers. Surprisingly, the women were the ones looking out the windows and marveling at the scenery. The men were wondering where lunch was! I was a "Prince" that day! I brought some books with me, about the line over Marias Pass, and shared them with all. They were avidly perused! It was a great trip, especially when we passed thru Essex, MT. There must have been over 200 people waving/greeting us at the Isaac Walton Inn! Sorry! No pix! I do think it was a better trip for not being seen thru the viewfinder alone. On the 4449's WB return, I was on the ground and got a few pix, but my new Mustang GT couldn't keep up with it west of Shelby! Of course, there were a lot of very loonie 'chasers' on the road to Cut Bank, so I turned for home.
Hays
I agree that the column is Fred Frailey’s opinion, and he has a perfect right to it. Let me offer my opinion.
I think this needs to be broken down because Fred’s seven points are somewhat like apples and oranges in that some are illegal, and some are merely personal choices that Fred disapproves of. And furthermore, while some of the seven points are based on forum behavior as well as field behavior, some of them are based only on field behavior.
Fred is talking about railfans, but it is not clear how many or which ones. He clearly is referring to all railfan photographers, including himself when he says: “Do you wonder why railroaders don’t have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lens? I’ll tell you why: We haven’t earned it.”
Do non-railroaders have to earn the respect of railroaders? I don’t require anybody to earn my respect. I give it out for free, and then withdraw it only if necessary.
Fred’s seven ways to become a better railfan:
1) Get off your butt: I disagree that this has anything to do with how good of a railfan you are. Some railfans spend their whole life researching railroading in the 1800s. Why would they be better fans if they devoted some of their time to experiencing current day “real thing” railroading, as Fred asserts? Is railroading in the 1800’s not the real thing? Would a railfan who spends all his or her time watching current era trains be “better” if he or she spent a little time researching railroading in the 1800s?
2) Be better informed: I disagree that this necessarily makes one a better railfan. One could argue that the innocent spontaneity of simply hanging around the railroad to see what shows up is more enjoyable than making a big obsessive effort to learn the lineup of what it coming. It is a similar to the assertion that looking at trains through the camera lens detracts from the full sensation of the train experience.
3) Shut up: This seems to reveal something about the Kalmbach culture, how they view this forum, their collective political ideology, how they impose that ideology on this forum and on Trains magazine, and how they view the role of this forum compared to the roll of Trains magazine. I’m not sure which forums Mr. Frailey is referring to with his example of engaging in “vicious so’s-your-mama ideological warfare,” but fortunately we have never had that happen here. It has come close, however, with threads about waving and labor/management issues.
4) Leave your camera at home: I disagree that this has anything to do with how good of a railfan you are. I know people who take lots of photographs, and have become conflicted over whether it is really worthwhile. They may wonder what the ultimate point is in having a big collection of images among their worldly possessions. Compulsively taking photographs can become like an addiction, and some people quit in order to alleviate the burden. And some of these quitters can become like ex-smokers who lecture and condescend to those who still smoke. I would not presume to lecture a photographer about what he or she is missing by using a camera to capture an experience.
5) Use common sense online: I do indeed believe than any railfan would be better if they did not do things that are illegal or damaging to others.
6) Accept that you don’t know everything: Very few people believe that they know everything, and it may or may not be a problem for the ones that do. Mr. Frailey needs to explain how this leads to good reputations getting recklessly shredded, as he asserts.
7) Never become part of the action: I agree with this and my response is a repeat of that for item #5.
SSSSHHHHHHH--------Sumbunall people----think Sumbunall
Think "Some But Not All"----I did not think I was being intolerant of what he said so much as pointed out that taking a certain viewpoint could get stretched into some awful dang weird positions---hence the need for a new kind of chill pill called "SUMBUNALL"=some but not all----
Sheeesh what a bunch of curmudgeons-------
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
When in the world did we become so intolerant of other's opinions?
Fred doesn't need to apologize for anything. It's everyone who jumped on his case that need to apologize for being uncivilized.
I suspect the ones that reacted most strongly are the ones who don't like the twinge of guilt they felt when they read it. Can't imagine anything else that would motivate such vitriol.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Unfortunately Convicted One, I am one who agrees very much with what Fred said. My dealings with many railfans, and I'll admit or point out that it is here in the east, reflects with the why he can say what he does. Further I hate to point at age being a factor, but it is, too. The younger ones are the one's who appear to define railfaning as what is captured through a lens. Period. Point blank. Nothing else. The older, and those who grow older, will branch out into history, operations, replicate modeling, and collecting. And some who stay with the camera sometimes even learn photography enough so as to get away from the zillion milimeter zoom head on shot or the wedgie which goes from one side of the frame to the next (yeah, I said wedgie) or the same spot shot over and over with just the number or color of the locomotive being different each time. Worst of all is the attitude of indignation by them when something else is suggested.
oltmanndSo, I'll retract the "suggest" and even the "recommend". He didn't even go that far. He just stated a belief that you are free to buy into or ignore.
You are being FAR too charitable in your rush to appologize for his overt statements. let's not forget that our current discussion has now evolved into a rebuttal of your statement that he was "taking a beating for stuff he didn't say or even imply "
When he chose to assert in the first person that we should "do the rest of us a favor" he was in fact implying that his POV was representative of the majority (and by definition against those railfans who do NOT see the world "according to Fred")
It was a moderately arrogant summation at best, framing those who might not agree with him as being the odd man out.
LOL, he must be living in a cocoon
Convicted OneWell, actually he did opine in absolute terms...
"I believe that to be a better citizen, a person should read more and watch TV news less." This doesn't mean that you are wrong or that I am judging you if you only watch Fox News and never read a paper, does it?
BucyrusHe said you would be BETTER if you get off your butt, be better informed, shut up, leave your camera at home, use common sense, and accept that you don’t know everything. I don’t see how that is anything like simply offering a friendly suggestion to try something new.
oltmanndWow. Poor Fred is taking a beating for stuff he didn't say or even imply. His whole point was that for many (not all) railfans, the hobby starts and ends with photography and that there can be more to railfanning and you might even find it makes the experience more enjoyable! That's it! Crucifying Fred for making a suggestion, that you are free to act on or leave alone, is evil.
Crucifying Fred for making a suggestion, that you are free to act on or leave alone, is evil.
Well, actually he did opine in absolute terms when he stated that NO one was interested in our political opinions and thne went into a rather smug representation that hewas speaking on behalf of all railfans with his comment of "do the rest of us a favor and keep it to yourself" which I thought was pure arrogance on his part. Seldom is it wise to make absolute assessments such as this.
And, his willingness to speak on absolute terms on those areas were not distinguished as seperate from the rest of his suggestions, so one might assume that his intended posture (speaking to ALL on behalf of ALL) remained the same.
he makes some good points though and he also mentioned about getting chewed out himself by an engineer once for standing too close. I don't see Fred's comments as out of line...he's right about the camera (I don't take pictures but still enjoy the hobby) and he's probably right in that as a group we haven't earned the respect of the folks who work on the railroad...I can see that.
I agree with all of them but only partially to the "Leave your camera at home" mentality. This is because I have the mindset of a collector. And as such, I feel like I need to photograph any and every locomotive I haven't yet shot and thus fill out my photo roster nicely. But amidst my mounds of similar photos of different locomotives, I hand pick unique and interesting ones to actually show off and post on forums, with the rest staying on rrpicturearchives.net or one of my CDs.
I also thought I'd add to the "get off your butt" tip. I agree with this completely, but I just don't have the money to travel to distant mainlines and yards. As it stands, I'm pretty much stuck with Altoona, WI and the whole 4 trains it sees every night. A difficult line to fan, but better than nothing. Thankfully my parents understand and let me make such night runs.
Your friendly neighborhood CNW fan.
He said you would be BETTER if you get off your butt, be better informed, shut up, leave your camera at home, use common sense, and accept that you don’t know everything.
I don’t see how that is anything like simply offering a friendly suggestion to try something new.
oltmanndWow. Poor Fred is taking a beating for stuff he didn't say or even imply. His whole point was that for many (not all) railfans, the hobby starts and ends with photography and that there can be more to railfanning and you might even find it makes the experience more enjoyable! That's it! An analogy. Your favorite pizza might be pepperoni. Some one suggests you try ham and pineapple. You have three choices. Try it - you may like it! Don't try it - pepperoni is good enough for you forever. Don't try it and berate the person who suggested it. Crucifying Fred for making a suggestion, that you are free to act on or leave alone, is evil.
An analogy. Your favorite pizza might be pepperoni. Some one suggests you try ham and pineapple. You have three choices.
Try it - you may like it!
Don't try it - pepperoni is good enough for you forever.
Don't try it and berate the person who suggested it.
Hmmm.. ham and pineapple..must give that a try.
Convicted Onetree68 I have to disagree with the whole "don't bring your camera" thing. By the time the train gets to me, I've usually put the camera down. Not only do I get to enjoy the sights and sounds first hand, but I've got a picture to "take me back" to that moment. (Just guessing) Since his general "thrust" this month seems aimed at fostering better relations with his "inside the industry" chums, let's look at his comment from that aspect. Where I work, if some stranger showed up at my jobsite, set up some fairly sophisticated camera gear, and started snapping away, I'd be put on the defensive. I'd be forced to assume that some lawyer was fishing for "slip and fall" support for a client, or some other liability...or that perhaps my own employer had hired a snooping service. Either way the presence constitutes a potential nuisance that interferes with the quiet, productivity conducive environment that I'd prefer to maintain whenever possible. So, I can understand Fred's suggestion on that basis. Beyond that and in particular reference to the comments I made earlier, same guy goes out and sets up the same sophisticated equipment at the end of some bridge, waits 40 minutes for a freight toshow up...then spends 3 minutes snapping pictures,....and then waits 2 more hours for the next freight, snapping six more, and then goes home.....he's spent half a day, and for what? a dozen pictures that are uncannily similar to the dozen he shot at the same location the weekend before,...and the weekend before that... and the weekend before that...etc? Sure, I guess you can argue that each opportunity presented unique lighting challenges for him to apply his skill and knowledgebase to overcome, but then the guy is more a camera buff ...than railfan. Not that there is anything wrong with that, per se, but I just think Fred is warning us not to fall into that rut.
tree68 I have to disagree with the whole "don't bring your camera" thing. By the time the train gets to me, I've usually put the camera down. Not only do I get to enjoy the sights and sounds first hand, but I've got a picture to "take me back" to that moment.
I have to disagree with the whole "don't bring your camera" thing.
By the time the train gets to me, I've usually put the camera down. Not only do I get to enjoy the sights and sounds first hand, but I've got a picture to "take me back" to that moment.
(Just guessing) Since his general "thrust" this month seems aimed at fostering better relations with his "inside the industry" chums, let's look at his comment from that aspect.
Where I work, if some stranger showed up at my jobsite, set up some fairly sophisticated camera gear, and started snapping away, I'd be put on the defensive. I'd be forced to assume that some lawyer was fishing for "slip and fall" support for a client, or some other liability...or that perhaps my own employer had hired a snooping service. Either way the presence constitutes a potential nuisance that interferes with the quiet, productivity conducive environment that I'd prefer to maintain whenever possible. So, I can understand Fred's suggestion on that basis.
Beyond that and in particular reference to the comments I made earlier, same guy goes out and sets up the same sophisticated equipment at the end of some bridge, waits 40 minutes for a freight toshow up...then spends 3 minutes snapping pictures,....and then waits 2 more hours for the next freight, snapping six more, and then goes home.....he's spent half a day, and for what? a dozen pictures that are uncannily similar to the dozen he shot at the same location the weekend before,...and the weekend before that... and the weekend before that...etc? Sure, I guess you can argue that each opportunity presented unique lighting challenges for him to apply his skill and knowledgebase to overcome, but then the guy is more a camera buff ...than railfan. Not that there is anything wrong with that, per se, but I just think Fred is warning us not to fall into that rut.
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The Missabe Road: Safety First
For those who agree with Frailey's idea of riding trains as part of being a railfan, join RIDEWITHMEHENRY...that's me...and my friends Thur Feb 25 for an MNRR-NJT trip from Port Jervis, NY to Gladstone, NJ and return. To be upfront, I get my expenses paid (fares, gas, food) split amongs all, you get a planned and escorted trip and comeraderie of like thinking railfans. Be with us from the start or join us enroute. Camera's of course (but not overencombering getting in other's way), railroad radios are no nos. I have other such trips for both fans and non fans....
oltmanndThe only thing I have to add here is that I'd much rather hire a knowledgeable railfan to come to work in my office than a run of the mill college grad. Anybody can have a good business skill set, but it's the context that's hard to come by. A knowledgeable railfan has a leg up on everybody else - and he will tend to be more motivated and have his head in the game more often.
I feel the same way... it is always a pleasure to work with people who have an interest in what they do.
henry6I don't think the discussion is aimed at dictating how, but suggesting other ways.
I don’t perceive that Mr. Frailey is just offering suggestions for alternate railfan activity. In his column, he offered seven ways to be a better railfan, so he clearly signaled that he feels his suggestions are superior to what they would replace. And he definitely implies that all railfans are guilty of some of his examples of unapproved behavior. So he purports to make us into better railfans in order to make railroad managers and operating men like us better. Mr. Frailey, give me a break.
henry6Tree, the point is that those railfans who make asses of themselves make asses of the rest of us. So anything that can be said or done to prevent such behavior has got to help the rest of us normal railfans.
Take a look at the voting on the Trackside "competitions." The votes far outnumber the comments. Since it's not real easy to vote more than once, that means that some number of fans quietly voiced their opinions. They're just sitting back and enjoying the trains.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Tree, the point is that those railfans who make asses of themselves make asses of the rest of us. So anything that can be said or done to prevent such behavior has got to help the rest of us normal railfans.
And John, I like your "8th way" up to a point. What has to be understood by all is that each of us, as a railfan, has a different reason for becoming a fan, a different georgraphy, different railroad, different type of train or locomotive, in otherwords, there are as more reasons and interests than there are railfans. And often we weave in and out of different angles and interests. I endorse and applaud virtually every historic endeavor be it museum, static dispalys, or operations, preservation, or whatever. But like taking pictures, just sitting watching, modeling, collecting memorabelia, collecting libraries, not everyone is cut out to be part of museum or historic preservation. I have been on the picture taking binge; collected all kinds of stuff (right now, into railroad fiction novels and stories); I have operated musuems and ran fan trips, I have always been enamored with operations, having listened to dispatchers at work when I was kid and seeing how it all worked out over the timetable day (that's probably why today I prefer finding my way to a commuter operation and ride all day). But don't put hisorica preservation or a musuem aside because all of a sudden one gets vaccinated with the needle of a certain locomotive or piece of equipment or station or right of way,and, voila! one's immersed and hooked. I guess what I am trying to say here is that there are no absolutes in railfanning: no one interest beyond rails and wheels can define us nor should or should be expected to. But one other thing has to be included universally, and that is respect of our hosts (the railroads and railroaders) and respect for each other's choice of pursuit.
Let me wade in with a few thoughts.
First of all Fred should have included an 8th way. Namely, get involved with a museum operation. They are usually crying for more volunteers, and getting your hands dirty working on the real thing is a great way to gain a deeper understanding of what happens when you are watching trackside. Sometimes you might be working alongside a retired railroader, and it's incredible the wealth of information, instruction, and stories that can be available. Even the other amateurs will bring you a new level of sophistication.
By getting your hands dirty I mean more than only wanting to play engineer. That's often best done with a model railway where nobody gets hurt. Learn how track is built and maintained, or how a heavyweight coach is constructed. You still won't know much compared with the professionals, but it should provide a base to make any conversation or questions more intelligent (and less annoying).
4. Leave your camera at home, -our interests in the hobby should be deeper than our slide collection
There has been a lot of discussion on this one, and I would certainly disagree with any literal interpretation. As I look through my slides taken over the last 40 years, some of them trigger long buried memories of events or people I have seen or met. Spending an afternoon watching trains go by, or taking a picture of every train at the same place - is there really much difference? Yes, some folks essentially take the same picture over and over, only the locomotive number changes, but others hunt up different angles, seek out new locations, and otherwise try to be creative.
On the other hand, there are times when experiencing the moment is best done without the distraction of a camera. Listening to CP's Hudson, 2816, barking upgrade in Kicking Horse Pass, and then the whistle echoing off the mountains as she approached the grade crossing half a mile away was awesome. Standing on the front vestibule of a commuter coach next to a GP9 listening and feeling the 567 engine throbbing through the Mount Royal tunnel in Montreal is another memory. In a different style, I had the pleasure of watching an Algoma Central crew switching mostly 40 foot boxcars using hand signals in a throwback to an earlier era. They did have radios, and occasionally used it, but most of the time found hand signals more effective. Often there is the opportunity to capture a few images at the same time.
Again, looking at some of the older pictures I now notice things that my early naive self had overlooked at the time. Perhaps surprisingly, having my eyes opened about past events also makes me more aware of what is happening now when I am out watching and/or photographing trains.
John
Some years ago Ben Bachman wrote a pretty interesting and funny piece about the various types of railfans, and what/ how they like to do that:
On watching trains Trains, May 1979 page 28 action on and under the bridge at East Deerfield ( B&M, "BACHMAN, BEN", RAILFANNING, TRN )
I believe that's the one where he compared us to an acquaintance who was 'obsessed' with and an expert on a particular seabird - Leach's Storm Petrel, if I recall correctly - which spends most of its life far out at sea, beyond any reasonable hope of observation. Next to that, we look pretty normal - but he's the one whose hobby is considered socially acceptable, while we're usually viewed as the oddballs. Maybe something out of kilter here ?
- Paul North.
Convicted OneIf you act foolishly, or act arrogant like you have a right to be there, heh, you'll probably be seeing a white blazer before too long, and trust me...the guy inside'll want to talk to you!!
[rant]
I dug that issue out again (having accidentally sent it to the "stacks" already).
The highlighted bullet point he makes in his second paragraph kind of chafes.
"Do you wonder why railroaders don't have more respect for us? We haven't earned it."
Bull hockey.
Railfans "log" thousands of hours of trainwatching every year that the railroaders apparently aren't even aware of. From sitting patiently at a crossing (I know, you won't wave), to eating at establishments with a favorable view of the tracks, to frequenting hotels that cater to railfans, to spending time at established watching spots (like Rochelle, Jessup, Folkston, etc), to checking out distant webcams, we quietly watch the objects we admire, and the people who operate them.
We live by Fred's seven ways to become a better railfan, but we don't get credit for that. Instead we get cast in the mold of the one clown who decides to set up his tripod in the middle of the tracks, hoping for that great oncoming-train shot.
This forum generally lives by his suggestions as well. Sure, speculation runs rampant when something like the derailment on Sand Patch happens, but eventually the truth comes out and most of us learn something. "Stupid" questions get answered, even if we've answered them before.
Yes there are railfans who don't have a clue, or can't seem to get it. The same is true with just about everything. I cringe every time a reporter misstates something about a fire.
So, give the average railfan some credit. You haven't noticed him (or her) because you've never had the opportunity to do so. They've just been quietly watching.
[/rant]
well, as a matter of pure candor, I have gotten into a number of good conversations with rails out in the field, track guys, signal guys, engineers waiting on meets, and I think that it's mostly a matter of how you present yourself. If you're decent, personable, act a little knowledgable about the line they are on, and ACT LIKE YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR OWN SAFETY most of them are happy to share a few words.
If you act foolishly, or act arrogant like you have a right to be there, heh, you'll probably be seeing a white blazer before too long, and trust me...the guy inside'll want to talk to you!!
Convicted OneBucyrus . Frankly, I don’t believe his antidote about his friend who works for a Class-I railroad in a mid-level management position having been driven off forums because there are too many stupid people there. the thought that his anecdote might have been a construct fashioned to shape the herd here, ...did cross my mind. ala "OHHH, so if we BEHAVE ourselves,.. then maybe we'll get a chance to talk to more COOL guys"...etc
Bucyrus . Frankly, I don’t believe his antidote about his friend who works for a Class-I railroad in a mid-level management position having been driven off forums because there are too many stupid people there.
. Frankly, I don’t believe his antidote about his friend who works for a Class-I railroad in a mid-level management position having been driven off forums because there are too many stupid people there.
the thought that his anecdote might have been a construct fashioned to shape the herd here, ...did cross my mind. ala "OHHH, so if we BEHAVE ourselves,.. then maybe we'll get a chance to talk to more COOL guys"...etc
At first I thought Bucyrus' malapropism was one of the funnier ones I've heard of late. On second glance, perhaps he really meant a substance to undo the poisonous railfans?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I don't think the discussion is aimed at dictating how, but suggesting other ways. Frailey's point I think was to suggest ways in which professional railroaders might be encouraged to take some railfans more seriously, i.e., in one case he suggested go out to look at railroads and trains without a camera. He wasn't dictating, he was suggesting. There are those who do define the railroad hobby being only an exercise in taking pictures without getting to know the railroad, the operations, the history, the business, or the people involved. Some apparently are wrapped so tight that this point in particular has caused quite a stir! Of course there are as many definitions of what a railfan is as there are individual railfans. And what they are interested in, why, and how they pursue the hobby is just as vague and varied. The only rules: do it safely, do it unobtrusively.
How about we adopt Outback Steakhouse's philosophy of "no rules"? If you enjoy it, then do it. I don't understand why some people feel the compulsion to dictate to everyone else how their HOBBY should be done. It's all about what makes you happy, folks.
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