A perceptive question. No, I glanced over it and decided it wasn't of interest. I'm only responding to what I read here.
timz,
I'm just curious. Did you read the column?
timzYou say "If someone says to another (or you) -- " and you're right, if Frailey had busted down your front door and walked in and said that to you, you could reasonably be piqued.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
schlimmIf someone says to another (or you) -- 1) Get off your butt 2) Be better informed 3) Shut up -- many would regard that mode of written address as fitting the adjectives I used [i.e. "contemptuous and condescending"].
So let's try the rewrite. Instead of saying "Get off your butt", he should have said "You really ought to try to get out more, unless of course you're too busy working around the house, or your job or some very worthwhile facet of your hobby entails sitting in that chair, or perhaps you're disabled, in which case please ignore what I just said."
You say "If someone says to another (or you) -- " and you're right, if Frailey had busted down your front door and walked in and said that to you, you could reasonably be piqued. But he didn't do that. He figured his readers had sense enough to know the difference between a magazine essay and one-on-one conversation; next time he'll know better.
If Frailey had wanted to be "contemptuous and condescending" in a magazine essay, he would write "Each and every one of you Trains readers is a hilariously useless schlub. Yes, I mean you! And oh yes, you're ugly, too."
blownout cylinderoltmanndYes, he believes that railfans haven't earned the respect of railroaders and in the piece he tells what he thinks the reasons are. That is all opinion, no? Why does that opinion bother you so much? You care what Fred might think of you? A little blow to the ego, perhaps? It is opinion---and, like Fred, others have their opinion. Mine is that if I'm expected to earn someone's respect that there be some allowance for that recognition of OTHERS attempts at such 'cleaning' up of that reputation. As it is, it appears that all of the law abiding railfans seemed to have been dumped into the same bucket as the people who cause the issues. This comes across as one of those scenarios that we see when university starts up and a FEW idiots cause a problem----the rest get to be told how terrible they are. That is why I crab about stereotyping---
oltmanndYes, he believes that railfans haven't earned the respect of railroaders and in the piece he tells what he thinks the reasons are. That is all opinion, no? Why does that opinion bother you so much? You care what Fred might think of you? A little blow to the ego, perhaps?
It is opinion---and, like Fred, others have their opinion.
Mine is that if I'm expected to earn someone's respect that there be some allowance for that recognition of OTHERS attempts at such 'cleaning' up of that reputation. As it is, it appears that all of the law abiding railfans seemed to have been dumped into the same bucket as the people who cause the issues.
This comes across as one of those scenarios that we see when university starts up and a FEW idiots cause a problem----the rest get to be told how terrible they are.
That is why I crab about stereotyping---
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Normally I admire and enjoy Mr. Frailey's writing, but this one left me puzzled. In point #2 he advocates for a scanner, laptop with wireless capability and timetables. Those are all good suggestions. However, then comes point #4 about leaving your camera at home.
This forum doesn't sponsor a weekly contest for the best audio recording! If I am going to railfan without some gagets, the camera is going to be the last one to go.
timzPeople have quoted things they didn't like. Nobody has spelled out what he said that was "contemptuous and condescending"-- that description having just been used a few posts ago. In any case, makes more sense for the person that used those words to tell us which writing he's referring to. No way for the rest of us to know.
People have quoted things they didn't like. Nobody has spelled out what he said that was "contemptuous and condescending"-- that description having just been used a few posts ago.
In any case, makes more sense for the person that used those words to tell us which writing he's referring to. No way for the rest of us to know.
Many apparently know, just not you. If someone says to another (or you) --
1) Get off your butt
2) Be better informed
3) Shut up
-- many would regard that mode of written address as fitting the adjectives I used.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Bucyrus It should be noted that item #2 Be better informed, is not about becoming more knowledgeable about the railroad industry in general, so you can gain the respect of railroaders. Insead, it is about being better informed about the location of trains on a particular piece of railroad. Mr. Frailey advises getting a scanner and timetables. And he says you would be crazy not to join Yahoo’s ATCS Monitor group. He mentions fans that have set up a system of radio receivers and computers servers every 30 or so miles from Richmond, VA. To Miami, giving you on the Internet a dispatcher’s view of the whole route. He says you can go on the road and get the big picture by bringing a laptop and wireless modem.
It should be noted that item #2 Be better informed, is not about becoming more knowledgeable about the railroad industry in general, so you can gain the respect of railroaders.
Insead, it is about being better informed about the location of trains on a particular piece of railroad. Mr. Frailey advises getting a scanner and timetables. And he says you would be crazy not to join Yahoo’s ATCS Monitor group. He mentions fans that have set up a system of radio receivers and computers servers every 30 or so miles from Richmond, VA. To Miami, giving you on the Internet a dispatcher’s view of the whole route. He says you can go on the road and get the big picture by bringing a laptop and wireless modem.
To me that sounds too much like a job...my idea of railfanning is vegging out at trackside on a Sunday afternoon with sandwich in hand. But like I said earlier..to each his own. There's alot to be said for keeping things simple..
DeggestyI agree with Larry and Barry. You were NOT too late, but just right in taking this picture; I get the sense of speed in this picture--she's movin' on!
Johnny
timz schlimmalready have done so."Contemptuous and condescending", you said. Show us an example of that, and show us how you'd rewrite it. No one has done any of that.
schlimmalready have done so.
Why don't you attempt to read the posts already posted? The comments are all over this thread---
Maybe you are just baiting?
timzGive us an example of his contemptuous and condescending tone. Might as well show us how you'd rewrite it, too.
I, Bucyrus, tree, and others already have done so. I wouldn't have written to tell/suggest to anyone how to be a better fan other than to respect others' rights and property.
I'm reminded of a common character in the rail modelling world - the "armchair modeller."
For any of a number of reasons, the armchair modeller doesn't have a layout. Maybe no space, maybe no money, maybe no desire to actually construct a layout as he's perfectly happy just planning one.
One modeller, featured numerous times in MR, built buildings. Large and small (outhouses a specialty, including a brick number in the shape of a woman's torso), he built them all, then gave them to the folks that had layouts to put them on. IIRC, he might have had a small layout once, but after that stuck to buildings.
I rather liken some of Mr Frailey's advice to telling an armchair modeller that he needs to build a layout. There's a reason they don't, and all the advice in the world isn't going to change that.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
schlimmThe problem is his heavy-handed tone of contempt and condescension
BucyrusFred’s seven ways to become a better railfan: 1) Get off your butt: 2) Be better informed: 3) Shut up: 4) Leave your camera at home: 5) Use common sense online: 6) Accept that you don’t know everything: 7) Never become part of the action
This is one of those occasions where I find I agree with Bucyrus and fail to quite see Don Oltmann's point, a reversal of my usual reaction. As I have said, Frailey is entitled to his opinion but the tone strikes me as overly strident if he really expects to persuade anyone to do what he preaches. Points # 2, 5, and 7 seem reasonable in tone. #6 goes without saying, unless Frailey is projecting there. But # 1, 3, 4 ?
schlimmThe problem is his heavy-handed tone of contempt and condescension, as though he were lecturing a group of youthful miscreants and delinquents, when I imagine the median age of railfans and Trains readers is well beyond 30 and 98%+ are law-abiding, tax-paying solid citizens of the community..
I realize Frailey is entitled to his opinion. The problem is his heavy-handed tone of contempt and condescension, as though he were lecturing a group of youthful miscreants and delinquents, when I imagine the median age of railfans and Trains readers is well beyond 30 and 98%+ are law-abiding, tax-paying solid citizens of the community..
schlimmPretty clearly, Convicted One recognizes Frailey's piece as an opinion piece.
As Poppa Zit was fond of saying : "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They ARE NOT, however, entitled to their own facts" lol
Convicted One It would be more acceptable if'n he had framed his posture as being one of opinion only
Convicted One...What really caught my attention was what seems a glaring faux pas for a seasoned author of his reputation. Writing in absolute terms, he should know better.
That chill pill that I'm starting to babble on about might've been of use here---Sumbunall
What if he used a phrase like "Some But Not All-------" in introducing this screed? Qualifiers---remember them?
A bit of sanity might have occured then----
oltmannd Are you having trouble telling the difference between an opinion piece and a factual article? Every opinion doesn't have to start with the words "in my opinion"... Yes, he believes that railfans haven't earned the respect of railroaders and in the piece he tells what he thinks the reasons are. That is all opinion, no? Why does that opinion bother you so much? You care what Fred might think of you? A little blow to the ego, perhaps?
Are you having trouble telling the difference between an opinion piece and a factual article? Every opinion doesn't have to start with the words "in my opinion"...
Yes, he believes that railfans haven't earned the respect of railroaders and in the piece he tells what he thinks the reasons are. That is all opinion, no? Why does that opinion bother you so much? You care what Fred might think of you? A little blow to the ego, perhaps?
NO!. lol. It would be more acceptable if'n he had framed his posture as being one of opinion only, but by choosing words as he does (the "I'll tell you why..." bit) he borders upon framing his opinion as "fact" then he proceeds on a rant, harangue, or whatever you want to call it, faulting those who evidently fall outside the set of parameters of what he perceives as "acceptable"
And his opinion of me, or any possible affect it might have on my ego is not the driving force here...What really caught my attention was what seems a glaring faux pas for a seasoned author of his reputation. Writing in absolute terms, he should know better.
oltmanndblownout cylinderAgain. Why should a law abiding railfan have to work THAT MUCH HARDER to gain someone else's respect because a CRIMINAL steals bells?Because that's the way it is. It may not be fair, but when you are fighting a bad image, you have try all that much harder to clear it up. You have two choices. You can whine and complain about the injustice of it all - which changes nothing, or you can get busy and prove the perception is wrong - which might help. You must not have any teenagers in your house.....
blownout cylinderAgain. Why should a law abiding railfan have to work THAT MUCH HARDER to gain someone else's respect because a CRIMINAL steals bells?
You have two choices. You can whine and complain about the injustice of it all - which changes nothing, or you can get busy and prove the perception is wrong - which might help.
You must not have any teenagers in your house.....
Oh yes I have---it's just that there isn't that much hormonal things going with these'uns---yet.
As far as that other stuff goes, one must realize that others don't go 'round beating their chests about being law abiding and all that--we just go quietly about doing the railfanning the way we always done. In my case, making sure that my permits and such are up to date and keeping in regular touch with a few of the guys who work in the areas I usually do my railfanning.
All I ask is that we start to acknowledge that there are those out there who are trying to clean up that image---and not let the idiots become the sole examples of railfandom. Don't let stereotyping become the norm here----
oltmanndConvicted OneAs a footnote it might be worth mentioning that within the very first paragraph of Fred's piece he is blasting (using the posture of an alleged 'friend' in the industry) online discussion groups for having "too many stupid people spouting off things they know nothing about" Gee, I wonder who he's "opining" about? He further goes on to write "do you wonder why railroaders don't have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lense? I'LL TELL YOU WHY: we haven't earned it" his insistence that he knows full well the nature of the "problem" he describes, goes WELL PAST the posture of "sharing an opinion" Are you having trouble telling the difference between an opinion piece and a factual article? Every opinion doesn't have to start with the words "in my opinion"...
Convicted OneAs a footnote it might be worth mentioning that within the very first paragraph of Fred's piece he is blasting (using the posture of an alleged 'friend' in the industry) online discussion groups for having "too many stupid people spouting off things they know nothing about" Gee, I wonder who he's "opining" about? He further goes on to write "do you wonder why railroaders don't have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lense? I'LL TELL YOU WHY: we haven't earned it" his insistence that he knows full well the nature of the "problem" he describes, goes WELL PAST the posture of "sharing an opinion"
As a footnote it might be worth mentioning that within the very first paragraph of Fred's piece he is blasting (using the posture of an alleged 'friend' in the industry) online discussion groups for having "too many stupid people spouting off things they know nothing about"
Gee, I wonder who he's "opining" about?
He further goes on to write "do you wonder why railroaders don't have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lense? I'LL TELL YOU WHY: we haven't earned it"
his insistence that he knows full well the nature of the "problem" he describes, goes WELL PAST the posture of "sharing an opinion"
Pretty clearly, Convicted One recognizes Frailey's piece as an opinion piece. I believe it is a special type of opinion piece, usually known as a harangue.
oltmanndConvicted One As a footnote it might be worth mentioning that within the very first paragraph of Fred's piece he is blasting (using the posture of an alleged 'friend' in the industry) online discussion groups for having "too many stupid people spouting off things they know nothing about" Gee, I wonder who he's "opining" about? He further goes on to write "do you wonder why railroaders don't have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lense? I'LL TELL YOU WHY: we haven't earned it" his insistence that he knows full well the nature of the "problem" he describes, goes WELL PAST the posture of "sharing an opinion" Are you having trouble telling the difference between an opinion piece and a factual article? Every opinion doesn't have to start with the words "in my opinion"... Yes, he believes that railfans haven't earned the respect of railroaders and in the piece he tells what he thinks the reasons are. That is all opinion, no? Why does that opinion bother you so much? You care what Fred might think of you? A little blow to the ego, perhaps?
Convicted One As a footnote it might be worth mentioning that within the very first paragraph of Fred's piece he is blasting (using the posture of an alleged 'friend' in the industry) online discussion groups for having "too many stupid people spouting off things they know nothing about" Gee, I wonder who he's "opining" about? He further goes on to write "do you wonder why railroaders don't have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lense? I'LL TELL YOU WHY: we haven't earned it" his insistence that he knows full well the nature of the "problem" he describes, goes WELL PAST the posture of "sharing an opinion"
I don’t see any evidence that anyone believes that Frailey had done anything other than offer an opinion. What else could it be? You seem to be suggesting that because a statement is only an opinion, it cannot be disagreed with or criticized.
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