Fred Frailey: "Seven ways to become a better railfan"

[oltmannd]

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Again. Why should a law abiding railfan have to work THAT MUCH HARDER to gain someone else's respect because a CRIMINAL steals bells?

Because that's the way it is. It may not be fair, but when you are fighting a bad image, you have try all that much harder to clear it up.

You have two choices. You can whine and complain about the injustice of it all - which changes nothing, or you can get busy and prove the perception is wrong - which might help.

You must not have any teenagers in your house.....

[Deggesty]

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tree68

CopCarSS

As you can see, I ended up missing the focus on the shot because she was simply moving too fast for me to follow focus effectively.

But, you ended up with a photo that conveys that far better than words alone would have - both to us and for your own memory - and you were still trackside when she went by.

These kinds of shots I think are more effective in communicating the presence of a locomotive better than some technically 'perfect' shot.

Then again, I hear a lot of artists saying that such and such a piece they've made is a load of hoooey and yet they'd get some art collector buying the dang piece right out under their nose. My wife gets that a lot---

I agree with Larry and Barry. You were NOT too late, but just right in taking this picture; I get the sense of speed in this picture--she's movin' on!

[schlimm]

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coborn35

So I should assume everyone is a little angel and nothing ever goes missing? Thats just stupid. Railfans steal things. Not all of them for sure, and not even 1/3 of them. But there are those that do, and I would be an idiot not to prepare for that/ be wary.

Maybe if we weren't so paranoid about all kinds of things and filled with doubt and suspicion of everyone who walk around there might not be any of this looniness to begin with----I'm just saying

Be careful yes---but do not assume that everyone is out to get you----

 

If Coburn and other railroaders' attitudes on here are at all representative, I guess I for one will be rather cautious around "their" property.  Barry's right; there is way too much paranoia, hysteria and lunacy.

[blownout cylinder]

coborn35

So I should assume everyone is a little angel and nothing ever goes missing? Thats just stupid. Railfans steal things. Not all of them for sure, and not even 1/3 of them. But there are those that do, and I would be an idiot not to prepare for that/ be wary.

Maybe if we weren't so paranoid about all kinds of things and filled with doubt and suspicion of everyone who walk around there might not be any of this looniness to begin with----I'm just saying

Be careful yes---but do not assume that everyone is out to get you----

 

[henry6]

It takes but one apple to spoil the whole barrel.  What I fine kettle of fish we're in!

[coborn35]

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coborn35

schlimm

When all's said and done, most people who are interested in the rails will pursue their interest in the specific ways that they have found to be personally satisfying.  It is hard to imagine that very many will railfans engage in behaviors that disturb others or are illegal.  Those that do so are unlikely to change their ways or become enlightened because of words of wisdom from FF or anyone else.

Tell that to John Larkin, or ask me why we paint our brass bells black.

Again. Why should a law abiding railfan have to work THAT MUCH HARDER to gain someone else's respect because a CRIMINAL steals bells?

It used to be that we trusted one another to NOT be doing this kind of illegal, risky behaviour. Remember the phrase----innocent until proven guilty? How about respecting others as well as yourself? Do you go around thinking of yourself as a thief? If not then why do you go around assuming that others are?

Now we gotta work hard to do simple things because we ALLOWED the criminal behaviour to assume the role of NORMAL behaviour

So I should assume everyone is a little angel and nothing ever goes missing? Thats just stupid. Railfans steal things. Not all of them for sure, and not even 1/3 of them. But there are those that do, and I would be an idiot not to prepare for that/ be wary.

[blownout cylinder]

tree68

CopCarSS

As you can see, I ended up missing the focus on the shot because she was simply moving too fast for me to follow focus effectively.

But, you ended up with a photo that conveys that far better than words alone would have - both to us and for your own memory - and you were still trackside when she went by.

These kinds of shots I think are more effective in communicating the presence of a locomotive better than some technically 'perfect' shot.

Then again, I hear a lot of artists saying that such and such a piece they've made is a load of hoooey and yet they'd get some art collector buying the dang piece right out under their nose. My wife gets that a lot---

[tree68]

CopCarSS

As you can see, I ended up missing the focus on the shot because she was simply moving too fast for me to follow focus effectively.

But, you ended up with a photo that conveys that far better than words alone would have - both to us and for your own memory - and you were still trackside when she went by.

[CopCarSS]

I'll give my perspective on the "Leave the Camera at Home" viewpoint. And this may surprise you, because you all know that one of my main passions in the hobby is photography. I kind of agree with the sentiment for two reasons:

1) My rail knowledge is pathetic, and I'm actually kind of ashamed of it. All it takes is a look at some of the members of this forum to know that I know nothing. I look at posts from MC, RWM, Carl, etc. etc and realize that I don't know enough to even begin to understand what they're talking about. Additionally, I'd love to have enough knowledge to ask intelligent questions like Murph and Gabe do!

Alas, my rail knowledge is very, very limited. Yes, I know what an SD40-2 is, what CTC is, etc, but that's about it. I wish I knew more about railroading as a whole. As a single illustrative example, I wish I understood signalling better so that when a topic about an accident investigation and the signals relating to that accident is brought up I could follow along. There are countless more aspects of railroading I wish I understood.

When I get trackside, it's usually to try and capture an image. Sometimes I think that if I'd set the camera down for a bit and just watch my photography might improve. Or, perhaps if I spent more time in the library learning about the subject I was interested in, it would help me, too.

Alas, I'm so driven by the thought of getting the next shot that I never really do either. Interestingly enough, it's not just rail related. I wish I had half a clue about the landscapes I photograph, too. I wish I understood the geology of what's going on. I wish I knew the names of the flora and fauna in my shots. I wish I understood coyotes better, because I know I'd gett better shots of them. Etc. etc. etc.

Unfortunately, photography is an addiction. I can't go anywhere sans camera. And it seems like I'm always searching for a magic bullet in the form of a new lens or different camera that will suddenly make things better. One of these days I'll learn that learning about my subject might be the magic bullet I've been searching for for a very long time.

2) On the rare occasions that I do set the camera aside, I find that railroading is a great subject to experience in ways beyond a tiny, dark viewfinder. Of course, sometimes I find that out too late. Here's a great example of that:

This is a shot from the 2007 Frontier Days train. Lynn Nystrom had 844 HIGHBALLING! through Brighton here. As you can see, I ended up missing the focus on the shot because she was simply moving too fast for me to follow focus effectively. In retrospect, I wish I had just taken that opportunity to watch and experience a big, beautiful, fast locomotive running like she was meant to.

So yes, I think Fred's advice here is solid. Leaving the camera at home from time to time just might make me a better railfan.

[Convicted One]

As a footnote it might be worth mentioning that within the very first paragraph of Fred's piece he is blasting (using the posture of an alleged 'friend' in the industry) online discussion groups for having "too many stupid people spouting off things they know nothing about"

 

Gee, I wonder  who he's "opining" about? 

 

He further goes on to write "do you wonder why railroaders don't have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lense? I'LL TELL YOU WHY: we haven't earned it"

 

his insistence that he knows full well the nature of the "problem" he describes, goes WELL PAST the  posture of "sharing an opinion"

[blownout cylinder]

coborn35

schlimm

When all's said and done, most people who are interested in the rails will pursue their interest in the specific ways that they have found to be personally satisfying.  It is hard to imagine that very many will railfans engage in behaviors that disturb others or are illegal.  Those that do so are unlikely to change their ways or become enlightened because of words of wisdom from FF or anyone else.

Tell that to John Larkin, or ask me why we paint our brass bells black.

Again. Why should a law abiding railfan have to work THAT MUCH HARDER to gain someone else's respect because a CRIMINAL steals bells?

It used to be that we trusted one another to NOT be doing this kind of illegal, risky behaviour. Remember the phrase----innocent until proven guilty? How about respecting others as well as yourself? Do you go around thinking of yourself as a thief? If not then why do you go around assuming that others are?

Now we gotta work hard to do simple things because we ALLOWED the criminal behaviour to assume the role of NORMAL behaviour

[coborn35]

schlimm

When all's said and done, most people who are interested in the rails will pursue their interest in the specific ways that they have found to be personally satisfying.  It is hard to imagine that very many will railfans engage in behaviors that disturb others or are illegal.  Those that do so are unlikely to change their ways or become enlightened because of words of wisdom from FF or anyone else.

Tell that to John Larkin, or ask me why we paint our brass bells black.

[Ulrich]

Best way to be a railfan is to do whatever it is that you enjoy doing without getting in the way of the people doing the work or breaking any laws..PERIOD. For some people that means photographing the trains while others simply enjoy watching the action and reading about railroads. One thing I've learned over the years...regardless of what it is you do..someone will disapprove... another thing I've learned..it doesn't matter...As for respect..it is always nice to have that...and I don't think respect requires a track record. It can simply be acknowlegement of another's interest or value system. For example...one can have respect for certain professions without knowing anything about the track record fo the individuals who practice those professions...same goes for anything else.

[oltmannd]

schlimm

It is hard to imagine that very many will railfans engage in behaviors that disturb others or are illegal. 

Do you get out much? Second laugh for the day..... (OK, not "very many" may be true, but so would have "too many")

[schlimm]

When all's said and done, most people who are interested in the rails will pursue their interest in the specific ways that they have found to be personally satisfying.  It is hard to imagine that very many will railfans engage in behaviors that disturb others or are illegal.  Those that do so are unlikely to change their ways or become enlightened because of words of wisdom from FF or anyone else.

[oltmannd]

henry6

Right or wrong, it is an old farts perogerative.

My laugh for the day! Thanks.

[oltmannd]

Bucyrus

I agree that the column is Fred Frailey’s opinion, and he has a perfect right to it.  Let me offer my opinion.

 

I think this needs to be broken down because Fred’s seven points are somewhat like apples and oranges in that some are illegal, and some are merely personal choices that Fred disapproves of.  And furthermore, while some of the seven points are based on forum behavior as well as field behavior, some of them are based only on field behavior.

 

Fred is talking about railfans, but it is not clear how many or which ones.  He clearly is referring to all railfan photographers, including himself when he says:  “Do you wonder why railroaders don’t have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lens?  I’ll tell you why:  We haven’t earned it.”

 

Do non-railroaders have to earn the respect of railroaders?  I don’t require anybody to earn my respect.  I give it out for free, and then withdraw it only if necessary.  

 

Fred’s seven ways to become a better railfan:

 

1)      Get off your butt:  I disagree that this has anything to do with how good of a railfan you are.  Some railfans spend their whole life researching railroading in the 1800s.  Why would they be better fans if they devoted some of their time to experiencing current day “real thing” railroading, as Fred asserts?  Is railroading in the 1800’s not the real thing?  Would a railfan who spends all his or her time watching current era trains be “better” if he or she spent a little time researching railroading in the 1800s?

 

2)      Be better informed:  I disagree that this necessarily makes one a better railfan.  One could argue that the innocent spontaneity of simply hanging around the railroad to see what shows up is more enjoyable than making a big obsessive effort to learn the lineup of what it coming.  It is a similar to the assertion that looking at trains through the camera lens detracts from the full sensation of the train experience.

 

3)      Shut up:  This seems to reveal something about the Kalmbach culture, how they view this forum, their collective political ideology, how they impose that ideology on this forum and on Trains magazine, and how they view the role of this forum compared to the roll of Trains magazine.  I’m not sure which forums Mr. Frailey is referring to with his example of engaging in “vicious so’s-your-mama ideological warfare,” but fortunately we have never had that happen here.  It has come close, however, with threads about waving and labor/management issues.

 

4)      Leave your camera at home:  I disagree that this has anything to do with how good of a railfan you are.  I know people who take lots of photographs, and have become conflicted over whether it is really worthwhile.  They may wonder what the ultimate point is in having a big collection of images among their worldly possessions.  Compulsively taking photographs can become like an addiction, and some people quit in order to alleviate the burden.  And some of these quitters can become like ex-smokers who lecture and condescend to those who still smoke.  I would not presume to lecture a photographer about what he or she is missing by using a camera to capture an experience.

 

5)      Use common sense online:  I do indeed believe than any railfan would be better if they did not do things that are illegal or damaging to others.

 

6)      Accept that you don’t know everything:  Very few people believe that they know everything, and it may or may not be a problem for the ones that do.  Mr. Frailey needs to explain how this leads to good reputations getting recklessly shredded, as he asserts.

 

7)      Never become part of the action:  I agree with this and my response is a repeat of that for item #5.  

 

I like this form of response. A reasoned rebuttal.

I will toss in my own opinion on one question of yours. Does respect have to be earned? I think the answer is "always". To be well respected for something implies that a positive track record exists and is known. The problem with railfan-railroader relations is that railroaders have the impression that railfans are merely geeks behind a shutter. Whether that is correct or not, is immaterial. That's the current state of things. Railroaders don't generally respect railfans. If you are OK with that, then nothing needs to be done. If you want the respect of the railroader, then it has to be demonstrated to them.

[Convicted One]

In labor towards objectivity, I conceed that Fred has been a railfan longer than I, and during that time has climbed to an esteemed level within rail journalism as well as the hobby itself, and therefore his opinion of what constitutes a "better" railfan is more qualified than mine.

And, I tend to respect informed opinion more so than uninformed opinion, so My hat is off to him in that regard.

And perhaps we can interpret his recommendations that we try to become more knowledgeable, and keep our uninformed opinions to ourselves during the learning process UNTIL such time as we can make informed assessments....as being his way of saying exactly that...that informed opinion is of greatest value, and we can never start  too early building our own?  

 

Ah well, now we go next into that "Roundhouse" issue

[selector]

Mebbe so.  Certainly, in my assessment, opinion pieces deserve a response of some kind, but they do invite responses of every conceivable kind.  That goes from devout affirmation to derisive dismissal.

Trouble is, neither one is given much credence from those whose responses are honestly more measured.  Those people know that a temperate response with some depth of thought will invite further dialog.  And in that respect, I think you fellas have done quite well.  

For me, a better message in the article might boil down to, "Try this...you may like it!"  Or, maybe, "Have you considered doing this or that?"  But I would have to agree that all-inclusive and absolutist language tends to get a good chunk of the readership's backs up because they feel they're being judged in terms they don't support or subscribe to.  We have these arguments in the hobby forums all the time...my modeling is better than your modeling because I use more raw materials and put them together after measuring and cutting, whereas you buy most of your stuff ready-made.  Tsk tsk!!  The message is that my enjoyment is a purer form than your mere enjoyment.  Piffle!  We're to take the speaker's word for it?

Should someone with a $50 point-and-shoot camera be more a purist than the guy with a $2000 DSLR and a fixed focus telephoto worth $7000?  And neither is worth more than condescension from the even greater purist who only uses his Mark I eyeball when he watches trains?  Puhleese!

-Crandell

[Convicted One]

henry6

  I don't hold it against anybody who does any one of the above.  Or all of the above.  But I am against any one who does any one of the above and shows no respect for those who pursue any of the other pursuits and take it as a personal affront to his pursuit.   

 

Such as admonishing selected groups of the fellowship  for  failing to behave in ways that industry insiders might find warm-n-fuzzy?

 

Know what I think?  I think that over the past several years there has been far too little discussion  here about magazine content.

[blownout cylinder]

henry6

Its too bad so many have taken affront with what Frailey had to say.  At least, maybe, he got some to think about what they and/or fellow fans do or not do and to talk about it...it being "being a railfan".  Yes, his view is opinion, and yes I pretty much understand and agree with most of what he said.  Even still, if we all come away with the understanding that being a railfan can be practiced in so many different ways and, more important, to recognize and respect those different practices. 

I agree with you in the sense of building tolerance of others practices of railfanning. This whole issue of bashing someone over the beak just because they do their railfanning in 'x' method vs Harry Soandso's method is kind of boring to me.

As for this puppy, I take my camera when I go railfanning. I use the camera a lot. I am attentive to light/shadow/birds/smells---standing by a field of sweet williams and hyacinths in full bloom while one of CP's red GP9's go barrelling by Beachville is my idea of fun times---sounds/people as they all fascinate me. Just because I have a camera in my hand should not mean that I am a dullard and that, therefore, I am not "in the moment"

 

[henry6]

Convicted One

 

Ahh, I see, so what you're REALLY saying is "unfortunately, not everyone agrees" (with your and Fred's POV)

I really don't give a (instert explitive of choice here) what anybody thinks here...don't put words in my mouth or read anything into what I said more than the words spoken.  The fact is that many who have disagreed with Fred (and me to an extent) have had real emotional negative reactions feeling they've been personally attacked. And that's not true of me (and I don't think of Fred, either, but you better ask him).  Rather than defend themselves they have lashed out at the message and the messenger(s).  Some of it is from a perspective of age, of what was going on in the hobby and the world when we got involved as opposed to today.  I think there is more, and has been more, to the railroad hobby than just taking pictures.  I also think there is more to it than scale modeling and replication; more than colllecting and assembling toy trains; more than reading history books or collecting memorabalia; more than watchng slide shows, eating donuts and drinking coffee, and going home at the end of a show; more than preserving equipment and buildings; more than just riding trains or sitting and watching them go by.  The rail hobby is all of the above and much, much more than I have noted.  I don't hold it against anybody who does any one of the above.  Or all of the above.  But I am against any one who does any one of the above and shows no respect for those who pursue any of the other pursuits and take it as a personal affront to his pursuit.   

[Anonymous]

Just to clarify:

 

I listed Fred’s seven bullet points in bold text.  They are Fred’s words.  What follows each of them is my response.   In Fred’s actual column, he follows the bold headings with his own thorough explanation of what he means by each heading.  Perhaps some have not actually seen the column, and that might lead to conjecture about what his bold bullet points mean.  If you read his full elaboration of each point, there is no question about what he means.

[cx500]

Bucyrus

I agree that the column is Fred Frailey’s opinion, and he has a perfect right to it.  Let me offer my opinion.

 
 

2)      Be better informed:  I disagree that this necessarily makes one a better railfan.  One could argue that the innocent spontaneity of simply hanging around the railroad to see what shows up is more enjoyable than making a big obsessive effort to learn the lineup of what it coming.  It is a similar to the assertion that looking at trains through the camera lens detracts from the full sensation of the train experience.

 

 

I think what Fred was suggesting is that by only mindlessly watching trains go by you are missing out on greater enjoyment.  Don't you ever have a bit of curiosity as to where that dimensional load was going, or what is in the tank car, or why there are three units pulling that short train, or how steep that grade is.  If one has a question, try to find the answer and enjoy the satisfaction of being better informed.

And another side to this same issue is by being better informed you won't seem as ignorant to the professional railroaders, thus confirming our poor reputation.  As an example of ignorance, one fan stated "that locomotive must be really powerful because it is numbered way up in the 9000s".  It's an extreme example, perhaps, but similar naivete and ignorance when talking to railroaders just makes them shake their head in disbelief.

Overall I think Fred had some good ideas, even if they need not be taken absolutely literally.  In essence he is suggesting we broaden and develop our interests in the hobby, instead of focusing on one narrow aspect.  And of course, reminding us to stay safe and courteous.

John

[Convicted One]

henry6

"Unfortunate" because it seems to foster vehement and retailiatory statements from those who don't agree or understand what he was saying..  ////{SNIP!!} \\\ Right or wrong, it is an old farts perogerative.

 

Ahh, I see, so what you're REALLY saying is "unfortunately, not everyone agrees" (with your and Fred's POV)

fair enough I suppose.  do you consider those comments to be 'vehement' simply because they contrast against your views? It's probably not very realistic to expect everyone to agree with you, on ANY one particular subject...which is one of the the things that taints Fred's "Do the rest of us a favor" comment...it's faulty logic for him to assume that all other railfans support his particular disdain(s)

As far as suggesting to the shutterbug addicts that they may  have narrowed their potential enjoyment of the hobby, and that they should consider broadening their interests   (by leaving the camera at home) I fully agree with him there.  

 

[zugmann]

Zug's 8th way to become a better railfan:

 

Work for a railroad.  Then you will gain a whole new appreciation of the industry.  The few times when I actually go out foaming, I take my camera.  If I just want to sit there and watch trains pass, I'll go to work where they pay me to do that. 

 

 

[blownout cylinder]

mmmm--interesting stuff this---

I thought that OPINION pieces were just that--OPINION pieces.

Ergo---not written as a directive from some party apparatchik.

OPINION pieces generate other OPINIONS and, from that then, generate debate. If my opinion is different from someone else's why should this then generate so much heat?

Just saying---------

[henry6]

"Unfortunate" because it seems to foster vehement and retailiatory statements from those who don't agree or understand what he was saying.

Alright, let me say it: I am an old fart. So is Fred.  He and I, and others of course, came up in a non technical, non digital, non instant communicative world where soul satifying grataification comes at the click of a button and all ills go away with the popping of a pill; where and when walking, reading, researching, discussing (d i s c u s s i n g not argueing or taking quick offense), relaxing, and learning about, being curious about, and trying to understand the world around one was more the norm than pigeon holing everything and then selectively pick and blindly follow that one interest one way at total expense of all other things and people.  Railroading (as a fan) led me into an understanding of georgraphy, commerce, and history, an interest in photography and writing and an opening of other worlds I didn't know existed, and meeting hundreds of people with the same and diverse interests as me   Sometime we old farts don't think the younger generation has taken the time to open the available vistas and say something about it.  Right or wrong, it is an old farts perogerative.

[Convicted One]

henry6

Its too bad so many have taken affront with what Frailey had to say.  . 

 

I suspect that he's probably delighted that one of his columns managed to raise so much interest.     That is, afterall, what they are paid to do, write story's that catch the reader's attention.

[Convicted One]

henry6

Unfortunately Convicted One, I am one who agrees very much with what Fred said. 

 Why is it  at all "unfortunate" that you agree with Fred? Seems as though  that is your entitlement.