Fred Frailey: "Seven ways to become a better railfan"

[schlimm]

Bucyrus

Fred’s seven ways to become a better railfan:

 

1)      Get off your butt: 

 

2)      Be better informed:  

3)      Shut up:  

 

4)      Leave your camera at home:

 

5)      Use common sense online:  

 

6)      Accept that you don’t know everything:  

 

7)      Never become part of the action

 

This is one of those occasions where I find I agree with Bucyrus and fail to quite see Don Oltmann's point, a reversal of my usual reaction.  As I have said, Frailey is entitled to his opinion but the tone strikes me as overly strident if he really expects to persuade anyone to do what he preaches. Points # 2, 5, and 7 seem reasonable in tone.  #6 goes without saying, unless Frailey is projecting there.  But # 1, 3, 4 ?

[timz]

schlimm

The problem is his heavy-handed tone of contempt and condescension

Give us an example of his contemptuous and condescending tone. Might as well show us how you'd rewrite it, too.

[tree68]

I'm reminded of a common character in the rail modelling world - the "armchair modeller." 

For any of a number of reasons, the armchair modeller doesn't have a layout.  Maybe no space, maybe no money, maybe no desire to actually construct a layout as he's perfectly happy just planning one.

One modeller, featured numerous times in MR, built buildings.  Large and small (outhouses a specialty, including a brick number in the shape of a woman's torso), he built them all, then gave them to the folks that had layouts to put them on.  IIRC, he might have had a small layout once, but after that stuck to buildings.

I rather liken some of Mr Frailey's advice to telling an armchair modeller that he needs to build a layout.  There's a reason they don't, and all the advice in the world isn't going to change that.

[schlimm]

timz

Give us an example of his contemptuous and condescending tone. Might as well show us how you'd rewrite it, too.

 

I,  Bucyrus, tree, and others already have done so.  I wouldn't have written to tell/suggest to anyone how to be a better fan other than to respect others' rights and property.

[timz]

schlimm

already have done so.

"Contemptuous and condescending", you said. Show us an example of that, and show us how you'd rewrite it. No one has done any of that.

[blownout cylinder]

timz

schlimm

already have done so.

"Contemptuous and condescending", you said. Show us an example of that, and show us how you'd rewrite it. No one has done any of that.

Why don't you attempt to read the posts already posted? The comments are all over this thread---

 Maybe you are just baiting?

[timz]

People have quoted things they didn't like. Nobody has spelled out what he said that was "contemptuous and condescending"-- that description having just been used a few posts ago.

In any case, makes more sense for the person that used those words to tell us which writing he's referring to. No way for the rest of us to know.

[Anonymous]

It should be noted that item #2 Be better informed, is not about becoming more knowledgeable about the railroad industry in general, so you can gain the respect of railroaders. 

Insead, it is about being better informed about the location of trains on a particular piece of railroad.  Mr. Frailey advises getting a scanner and timetables.  And he says you would be crazy not to join Yahoo’s ATCS Monitor group.  He mentions fans that have set up a system of radio receivers and computers servers every 30 or so miles from Richmond, VA. To Miami, giving you on the Internet a dispatcher’s view of the whole route.  He says you can go on the road and get the big picture by bringing a laptop and wireless modem.   

[Deggesty]

Deggesty

I agree with Larry and Barry. You were NOT too late, but just right in taking this picture; I get the sense of speed in this picture--she's movin' on!

I forwarded the original email with the picture to my wife--and she likes the picture, too. Keep the good work up.

[Ulrich]

Bucyrus

It should be noted that item #2 Be better informed, is not about becoming more knowledgeable about the railroad industry in general, so you can gain the respect of railroaders. 

Insead, it is about being better informed about the location of trains on a particular piece of railroad.  Mr. Frailey advises getting a scanner and timetables.  And he says you would be crazy not to join Yahoo’s ATCS Monitor group.  He mentions fans that have set up a system of radio receivers and computers servers every 30 or so miles from Richmond, VA. To Miami, giving you on the Internet a dispatcher’s view of the whole route.  He says you can go on the road and get the big picture by bringing a laptop and wireless modem.   

 To me that sounds too much like a job...my idea of railfanning is vegging out at trackside on a Sunday afternoon with sandwich in hand. But like I said earlier..to each his own. There's alot to be said for keeping things simple..

[schlimm]

timz

People have quoted things they didn't like. Nobody has spelled out what he said that was "contemptuous and condescending"-- that description having just been used a few posts ago.

In any case, makes more sense for the person that used those words to tell us which writing he's referring to. No way for the rest of us to know.

 

Many apparently know, just not you.  If someone says to another (or you) --

1)      Get off your butt

 

2)      Be better informed

3)      Shut up

 

-- many would regard that mode of written address as fitting the adjectives I used.

 

[Dakguy201]

Normally I admire and enjoy Mr. Frailey's writing, but this one left me puzzled.  In point #2 he advocates for a scanner, laptop with wireless capability and timetables.  Those are all good suggestions.  However, then comes point #4 about leaving your camera at home. 

This forum doesn't sponsor a weekly contest for the best audio recording!  If I am going to railfan without some gagets, the camera is going to be the last one to go.    

 

[blownout cylinder]

oltmannd

Yes, he believes that railfans haven't earned the respect of railroaders and in the piece he tells what he thinks the reasons are. That is all opinion, no? Why does that opinion bother you so much? You care what Fred might think of you? A little blow to the ego, perhaps?

It is opinion---and, like Fred, others have their opinion.

Mine is that if I'm expected to earn someone's respect that there be some allowance for that recognition of OTHERS attempts at such 'cleaning' up of that reputation. As it is, it appears that all of the law abiding railfans seemed to have been dumped into the same bucket as the people who cause the issues.

This comes across as one of those scenarios that we see when university starts up and a FEW idiots cause a problem----the rest get to be told how terrible they are.

That is why I crab about stereotyping---

[oltmannd]

blownout cylinder

oltmannd

Yes, he believes that railfans haven't earned the respect of railroaders and in the piece he tells what he thinks the reasons are. That is all opinion, no? Why does that opinion bother you so much? You care what Fred might think of you? A little blow to the ego, perhaps?

It is opinion---and, like Fred, others have their opinion.

Mine is that if I'm expected to earn someone's respect that there be some allowance for that recognition of OTHERS attempts at such 'cleaning' up of that reputation. As it is, it appears that all of the law abiding railfans seemed to have been dumped into the same bucket as the people who cause the issues.

This comes across as one of those scenarios that we see when university starts up and a FEW idiots cause a problem----the rest get to be told how terrible they are.

That is why I crab about stereotyping---

Yup. Unfair. And a good reason for us to avoid the temptation to place others in buckets. That we can control. To expect all the world to behave that way would be naive and unrealistic. That we can't control so sometimes we have to do more than what is fair.

[timz]

schlimm

If someone says to another (or you) --

1)      Get off your butt

 

2)      Be better informed

3)      Shut up

 

-- many would regard that mode of written address as fitting the adjectives I used [i.e. "contemptuous and condescending"].

So let's try the rewrite. Instead of saying "Get off your butt", he should have said "You really ought to try to get out more, unless of course you're too busy working around the house, or your job or some very worthwhile facet of your hobby entails sitting in that chair, or perhaps you're disabled, in which case please ignore what I just said."

 

You say "If someone says to another (or you) -- " and you're right, if Frailey had busted down your front door and walked in and said that to you, you could reasonably be piqued. But he didn't do that. He figured his readers had sense enough to know the difference between a magazine essay and one-on-one conversation; next time he'll know better.

 

If Frailey had wanted to be "contemptuous and condescending" in a magazine essay, he would write "Each and every one of you Trains readers is a hilariously useless schlub. Yes, I mean you! And oh yes, you're ugly, too."

 

 

[oltmannd]

timz

You say "If someone says to another (or you) -- " and you're right, if Frailey had busted down your front door and walked in and said that to you, you could reasonably be piqued.

That's what I don't get. Why are some so piqued over the tone used to state an opinion? And, from my perspective, I don't have an issue with the tone at all - but not everyone shares my perspective, it seems!

[Anonymous]

timz,

I'm just curious.  Did you read the column?

[timz]

A perceptive question. No, I glanced over it and decided it wasn't of interest. I'm only responding to what I read here.

[JayPotter]

oltmannd

That's what I don't get. Why are some so piqued over the tone used to state an opinion?!

I obviously have no way of knowing why others feel the way that they do; but I suspect that it has something to do with a tendency of railfans to be protective, for lack of a better term, of whatever relationships we have with the industry.  My interest in the industry is focused on CSXT.  If I worked for CSXT, my relationship to it would be relatively well defined; and I presumably would have some idea of, and control over, the factors that could effect that relationship.  But because I don't work for CSXT, my relationship to it is not well defined; and so I pay particularly close attention to factors that might effect that relationship.  Nothing that Frailey wrote fit within that category, so I had no more than a passing interest in what he wrote.  But if -- as may have been the case with other people -- he phrased some statement in a way that I felt might have an adverse effect on whatever relationship I had with some segment of the industry, I expect that I would have been troubled by that statement.

If my protecting-the-relationship theory is at all accurate, the reason that comments about Frailey's statements and/or tone vary so much is that each of the commentators has a different relationship with the industry.  For example, if (1) my activities as a railfan brought me into contact with railroaders who knew me only as as an unfamiliar visiting railfan and (2) I felt that what Frailey said, or how he said it, portrayed railfans in general unfavorably, then I might feel that even this very general relationship might have been weakened.  I don't know if it would be realistic for me to feel that way; but I still might feel that way.

[henry6]

While I don't feel Fred Frailey has to be defended, I do think his views have to.  I have organized and operated train trips (500+ passenger, etc.) on several occasions; I have worked with a museum group; I have been member and officer of several railfan clubs.  And I have tried to shy away from railfans for the very problems Frailey discusses and states in his column and because of a lot of remarks seen on these threads.  Fans can be difficult to deal with in a real railroad situation, they have to be told what to do and what not to do (told because asking them brings on an arguement) about everything from behavior for safety, propriety in front of railroaders (from the lowest ranks to the President!), and in front of a public which reaches conclusions about railroads and railfans.  I've had member wanting to pirate and dupe commercial tapes and sell them, I've seen newpaper letters undercutting the relataionships of the clubs and the railroads because the fan didn't think. I have been a fan, too.  But I think, at least hope, that I've been respectiful of those whose property I have been on and whose business I have monitored and whose employees I have made friends with.  If no one understands that this is what Frailey's remarks are all about, then railfans are in big trouble.  I know I have pulled back from many so called railfan activities,  not gotten invloved with several organizations, and have chosen my "railfan buddies" carefully so as to avoid the bores Frailey addresses.

[Convicted One]

timz

schlimm

already have done so.

"Contemptuous and condescending", you said. Show us an example of that, and show us how you'd rewrite it. No one has done any of that.

 

 

Just as an illustration, where he claims in #3 that "no-one is interested in your opinion" it was just plain foolish for him to write the way he did, claiming that not one other person has any such interest. Any reader can immediately invalidate such a spansive claim, if through no other means than the knowing of just one other friend who might have such an interest. I enjoy debating current events with friends while waiting between trains, and frequently those topics include political topics.

So, Fred has clearly made a mis-statement here,  one that was too easy to invalidate ...perhaps what he was hoping to achieve was to inject a little insecurity into the more outspoken with his over the top summation, but made it so poorly that it's easy to disqualify. Now perhaps if he had worded a little smarter with a comment such as "You'd might be surprised to learn that MOST of the rest of us are not that interested in what your opinion is"  (or wording to that effect) it still delivers the same message, without the easy to assail flaw in logic.

[oltmannd]

Convicted One

Just as an illustration, where he claims in #3 that "no-one is interested in your opinion" it was just plain foolish for him to write the way he did, claiming that not one other person has any such interest. Any reader can immediately invalidate such a spansive claim, if through no other means than the knowing of just one other friend who might have such an interest. I enjoy debating current events with friends while waiting between trains, and frequently those topics include political topics.

So, Fred has clearly made a mis-statement here,  one that was too easy to invalidate ...perhaps what he was hoping to achieve was to inject a little insecurity into the more outspoken with his over the top summation, but made it so poorly that it's easy to disqualify. Now perhaps if he had worded a little smarter with a comment such as "You'd might be surprised to learn that MOST of the rest of us are not that interested in what your opinion is"  (or wording to that effect) it still delivers the same message, without the easy to assail flaw in logic.

You are slicing the baloney mighty fine, here, my friend!

[oltmannd]

JayPotter

If my protecting-the-relationship theory is at all accurate

Interesting idea. I'm more inclined to think it's about protecting ego. Most people's first reaction to being told they aren't doing something "right" is to get defensive. It's tied to an internal measure of self-worth. It doesn't feel good to have your self-worth eroded. If Fred made a mistake with his tone, it was that he may have closed the ears to the audience he was trying most to speak to.

[JayPotter]

oltmannd

JayPotter

If my protecting-the-relationship theory is at all accurate

Interesting idea. I'm more inclined to think it's about protecting ego.

It's tied to an internal measure of self-worth.

I agree entirely, at least in relation to myself.

I think that, with the exception of relationships with members of my family and people with whom I served in the military, all of my relationships involve ego.  And I suspect that the relationship with the greatest ego factor is the one with CSXT because that's the relationship which I've made the greatest effort, over the longest period of time, to maintain.

 

 

[Anonymous]

We all have egos.  If we didn’t, we would not believe that we know who we are.  Any ego that feels unjustly chastised by another ego will feel defensive and insecure.  Insecurity is also a hallmark of egos that want others to believe what they believe.

[BNSFwatcher]

Enuf!, methinks!!!  Fred was only expressing his opinion.  Don't get your 'panties-in-a-wad' so quickly.  Let's revisit this subject in six months.  After all, it did pass the 'censors' in Milwaukee.

Hays -- Nikon D50, three Sony Hi8s, and a Pentax filmer, none of which I really use.  I'd rather watch, most of the time.  Hmmm...  I remember an XXX-Rated film by that....  'Nuff said, before I get in trouble again!  Out.

[edblysard]

My opinion only, not intended to be instructions on rail fanning nor intended to be taken any more seriously than my avatar.

I really get tickled with the myth that all railroaders dislike or have no respect for railfans.

Not so, in fact, most railroaders are closet fans themselves.

Trust me, you really have to like the equipment and attendant hardware to work around this stuff every day, if you didn't enjoy the sights, sounds, smells and feel of railroading, this stuff is really scary and frightening up close...it only takes a few seconds of being a foot away from a covered hopper rolling at 10 mph to realize how easy this stuff can kill you and how dangerous it is.

It really doesn't bother us that you are out there taking photos, or recording locomotive numbers in a notebook, as long as you follow the common sense rules...stay off the property and stay out of the way.

Don't take what isn't yours ( steal stuff), and don't interrupt me while I am working.

When you break these simple rules, you put yourself in danger, which in turn puts me and my crew in danger, because now we have the extra burden of watching out not only for our selves and fellow crew, but we have to make sure we don't kill you in the meantime.

No, you don't have to steal stuff...if you catch us when we are having a water break, and walk up and ask, "Hey, can I have one of those tie plates and a spike?"...well, odds are yes, we will makes jokes about you when we get back in the cab, but the odds are just as good that one of us will pick up a old tie plate and spike and walk it over to you, heck, we might even toss in a switch list or train sheet too, because while these things are nothing more than hardware and tools of the trade to us, we really do understand that to you, they are artifacts.

But most of us do get a little ego boost when you show up, its kinda neat to think that what we do as job elicits such a large amount of interest.

Sorta cool to realize what I consider a simple part of my daily routine seems to be such a enjoyable mystery to others.

Yup, some of us do vocalize a dislike of fans, because inside the culture of railroading that is what is expected...just like firefighters who spend their day putting out fires, when they also get a rush at the sheer power and energy the fire has, and they enjoy being near it...publicly, they tell you they hate what fire does, privately they get their groove on watching the show, and then gaining control over the monster.

You don't fight fires if you don't like fire, and you don't work for a railroad if you don't like trains.

As to this thread and Mr. Frailey's column.

Never knew there was a protocol about being a rail fan, I was under the impression they come in all different styles, shapes and flavors.

Which is why I was slightly put out at the Mr. Frailey's implied concept of there being a "Better" rail fan, which implies that those who don't follow his recommendations are part of a lesser type of rail fan.

It seems to say that regardless of how your currently enjoy this hobby, you have to do something different to upgrade to being a better fan.

Discussed and derided here was the guy who spends a entire day at the end of a bridge taking the same basic photo of every train that crosses the bridge.

Maybe he should plug his ears with cotton balls and blindfold himself, and spend the day smelling the trains...or leave his camera at home and simply watch...maybe the blindfold along with hearing and smelling would make him a "better" fan...

Or....

Did it ever occur to anyone he may simply enjoy doing what he does more than any other aspect of rail fanning?

I know of a forum member who "collects" cars...not in the strict sense of actually buying the cars, but he collects the car number, he belongs to a group that tracks and catalogs cars in certain series, some rare cars, some old almost vanished cars, modern groups of new car types, they trade and swap the info and thoroughly enjoy what they do.

Are they weird, or bad rail fans?

No, they just have discovered a different way of enjoying trains and freight cars.

By the way, this same fan has co authored a few excellent books on freight cars, and is considered a expert in that field, if he can't answer your question about a particular car himself, he knows someone who can.

Could he be a "better" rail fan?

Why, what's wrong with being the type of fan he currently is?

I have read this thread, noticed that every thing from the semantics of the column to the intent and opinion of the author has been folded, bent, spindled and militated, cussed and discussed and pretty much turned inside out, in what appears to be an attempt to find or define the "basic model" of a "better" rail fan.

Good luck with that.

By the way, most of us who work for a railroad despise being called "rails"... which are the steel things the train wheels roll on.

We're railroaders, not rails.

[Deggesty]

edblysard

My opinion only, not intended to be instructions on rail fanning nor intended to be taken any more seriously than my avatar.

I really get tickled with the myth that all railroaders dislike or have no respect for railfans.

Thanks, Ed.

[MP173]

Ed:

You stated it quite well.  My interest in railroading has changed dramatically over the years.  I will take an occassional photo, but find that being on or near railroad property is something which I am uncomfortable about.  Just my personal view. The railroaders have a job to do.  The last thing they need to worry about is an extra person near the tracks.  Plus, there is danger involved.

I recall back in the 70's having absolutely no problems with marching up the steps to a tower and walking in and discussing the lineup....and hopefully staying around a bit. 

Flash forward to earlier this decade when I did that at Lennox Tower near St. Louis and the glares from the occupants when I walked in with a camera around my neck.  This was their property, their jobs, their responsibility.  I quickly apologized and left.  Since then I have been invited into a tower, but feel like I shouldnt be there.  The operator is hospitable and has invited me in a couple of times, but still.

A few years ago a person got very intrusive into my job.  It bugged me. He kept calling (made the mistake of giving him my card) and asking about the industry, my accounts, my employer, etc.  It really bugged me when my boss said he was  using me as a recommendation for a sales job. 

So, sometimes we have to ask ourselves how would we like to be treated...on our jobs.

Even at times here on this forum I feel as if I am pushing a bit too hard for info.  No doubt an outsider to this forum would scratch their heads and say...."why does this MP173 want to know about _______
(HBD, grades, signals, etc)". 

Probably the same reason I want to know why a major 7th chord sounds so different than a minor 7th, or why my 3.5mm ETX cannot resolve certain double stars on certain nights, but can on others, or why curling is so fascinating.

We all have interests, sometimes we are guilty of allowing those interests to cross the line.  We all collect things, whether it is Official Guides, photos of locomotives (or cars), the ability to play a song on a guitar, Messier objects, miles on bicyles, or laps in a pool.  At this point in my life, safety and consideration are critical for me. 

Just my opinion.

Ed

[oltmannd]

edblysard

Could he be a "better" rail fan?

...Why, what's wrong with being the type of fan he currently is?

Some good thoughts, for sure....

I think we are confusing a couple of things. First, is whether or not someone wants to get "better" or is happy with the status quo. I could be a better tennis player, but I'd have to be more motivated to practice, care about winning more and spend some money for lessons. However, I like where I am and enjoy tennis just fine. That does not invalidate those things that would make me better, just because I don't chose to do them.

The second is what do we use in this case as the measure for better. With tennis, it's pretty easy, if you win more against the same level of opponent, then you are the better player. In this case, we have a pretty well connected guy within the industry laying out those things he thinks would make us "better". This is his opinion and is no different than some newpaper columnist telling us "what's wrong with America" or why we should support some cause they hold near and dear. It's all their opinion based on a loose (usually) collection of facts and their value system and view of the issue.

So, we are free to do what we chose to do and measure "better" anyway that we care to rationalize it in our heads. What's really unfair is to pin Fred to a cross for having an opinion we don't particularly like or agree with.