oltmanndThe only thing I have to add here is that I'd much rather hire a knowledgeable railfan to come to work in my office than a run of the mill college grad. Anybody can have a good business skill set, but it's the context that's hard to come by. A knowledgeable railfan has a leg up on everybody else - and he will tend to be more motivated and have his head in the game more often.
I feel the same way... it is always a pleasure to work with people who have an interest in what they do.
For those who agree with Frailey's idea of riding trains as part of being a railfan, join RIDEWITHMEHENRY...that's me...and my friends Thur Feb 25 for an MNRR-NJT trip from Port Jervis, NY to Gladstone, NJ and return. To be upfront, I get my expenses paid (fares, gas, food) split amongs all, you get a planned and escorted trip and comeraderie of like thinking railfans. Be with us from the start or join us enroute. Camera's of course (but not overencombering getting in other's way), railroad radios are no nos. I have other such trips for both fans and non fans....
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Convicted Onetree68 I have to disagree with the whole "don't bring your camera" thing. By the time the train gets to me, I've usually put the camera down. Not only do I get to enjoy the sights and sounds first hand, but I've got a picture to "take me back" to that moment. (Just guessing) Since his general "thrust" this month seems aimed at fostering better relations with his "inside the industry" chums, let's look at his comment from that aspect. Where I work, if some stranger showed up at my jobsite, set up some fairly sophisticated camera gear, and started snapping away, I'd be put on the defensive. I'd be forced to assume that some lawyer was fishing for "slip and fall" support for a client, or some other liability...or that perhaps my own employer had hired a snooping service. Either way the presence constitutes a potential nuisance that interferes with the quiet, productivity conducive environment that I'd prefer to maintain whenever possible. So, I can understand Fred's suggestion on that basis. Beyond that and in particular reference to the comments I made earlier, same guy goes out and sets up the same sophisticated equipment at the end of some bridge, waits 40 minutes for a freight toshow up...then spends 3 minutes snapping pictures,....and then waits 2 more hours for the next freight, snapping six more, and then goes home.....he's spent half a day, and for what? a dozen pictures that are uncannily similar to the dozen he shot at the same location the weekend before,...and the weekend before that... and the weekend before that...etc? Sure, I guess you can argue that each opportunity presented unique lighting challenges for him to apply his skill and knowledgebase to overcome, but then the guy is more a camera buff ...than railfan. Not that there is anything wrong with that, per se, but I just think Fred is warning us not to fall into that rut.
tree68 I have to disagree with the whole "don't bring your camera" thing. By the time the train gets to me, I've usually put the camera down. Not only do I get to enjoy the sights and sounds first hand, but I've got a picture to "take me back" to that moment.
I have to disagree with the whole "don't bring your camera" thing.
By the time the train gets to me, I've usually put the camera down. Not only do I get to enjoy the sights and sounds first hand, but I've got a picture to "take me back" to that moment.
(Just guessing) Since his general "thrust" this month seems aimed at fostering better relations with his "inside the industry" chums, let's look at his comment from that aspect.
Where I work, if some stranger showed up at my jobsite, set up some fairly sophisticated camera gear, and started snapping away, I'd be put on the defensive. I'd be forced to assume that some lawyer was fishing for "slip and fall" support for a client, or some other liability...or that perhaps my own employer had hired a snooping service. Either way the presence constitutes a potential nuisance that interferes with the quiet, productivity conducive environment that I'd prefer to maintain whenever possible. So, I can understand Fred's suggestion on that basis.
Beyond that and in particular reference to the comments I made earlier, same guy goes out and sets up the same sophisticated equipment at the end of some bridge, waits 40 minutes for a freight toshow up...then spends 3 minutes snapping pictures,....and then waits 2 more hours for the next freight, snapping six more, and then goes home.....he's spent half a day, and for what? a dozen pictures that are uncannily similar to the dozen he shot at the same location the weekend before,...and the weekend before that... and the weekend before that...etc? Sure, I guess you can argue that each opportunity presented unique lighting challenges for him to apply his skill and knowledgebase to overcome, but then the guy is more a camera buff ...than railfan. Not that there is anything wrong with that, per se, but I just think Fred is warning us not to fall into that rut.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
An analogy. Your favorite pizza might be pepperoni. Some one suggests you try ham and pineapple. You have three choices.
Try it - you may like it!
Don't try it - pepperoni is good enough for you forever.
Don't try it and berate the person who suggested it.
Crucifying Fred for making a suggestion, that you are free to act on or leave alone, is evil.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmanndWow. Poor Fred is taking a beating for stuff he didn't say or even imply. His whole point was that for many (not all) railfans, the hobby starts and ends with photography and that there can be more to railfanning and you might even find it makes the experience more enjoyable! That's it! An analogy. Your favorite pizza might be pepperoni. Some one suggests you try ham and pineapple. You have three choices. Try it - you may like it! Don't try it - pepperoni is good enough for you forever. Don't try it and berate the person who suggested it. Crucifying Fred for making a suggestion, that you are free to act on or leave alone, is evil.
Hmmm.. ham and pineapple..must give that a try.
He said you would be BETTER if you get off your butt, be better informed, shut up, leave your camera at home, use common sense, and accept that you don’t know everything.
I don’t see how that is anything like simply offering a friendly suggestion to try something new.
I agree with all of them but only partially to the "Leave your camera at home" mentality. This is because I have the mindset of a collector. And as such, I feel like I need to photograph any and every locomotive I haven't yet shot and thus fill out my photo roster nicely. But amidst my mounds of similar photos of different locomotives, I hand pick unique and interesting ones to actually show off and post on forums, with the rest staying on rrpicturearchives.net or one of my CDs.
I also thought I'd add to the "get off your butt" tip. I agree with this completely, but I just don't have the money to travel to distant mainlines and yards. As it stands, I'm pretty much stuck with Altoona, WI and the whole 4 trains it sees every night. A difficult line to fan, but better than nothing. Thankfully my parents understand and let me make such night runs.
Your friendly neighborhood CNW fan.
he makes some good points though and he also mentioned about getting chewed out himself by an engineer once for standing too close. I don't see Fred's comments as out of line...he's right about the camera (I don't take pictures but still enjoy the hobby) and he's probably right in that as a group we haven't earned the respect of the folks who work on the railroad...I can see that.
oltmanndWow. Poor Fred is taking a beating for stuff he didn't say or even imply. His whole point was that for many (not all) railfans, the hobby starts and ends with photography and that there can be more to railfanning and you might even find it makes the experience more enjoyable! That's it! Crucifying Fred for making a suggestion, that you are free to act on or leave alone, is evil.
Well, actually he did opine in absolute terms when he stated that NO one was interested in our political opinions and thne went into a rather smug representation that hewas speaking on behalf of all railfans with his comment of "do the rest of us a favor and keep it to yourself" which I thought was pure arrogance on his part. Seldom is it wise to make absolute assessments such as this.
And, his willingness to speak on absolute terms on those areas were not distinguished as seperate from the rest of his suggestions, so one might assume that his intended posture (speaking to ALL on behalf of ALL) remained the same.
BucyrusHe said you would be BETTER if you get off your butt, be better informed, shut up, leave your camera at home, use common sense, and accept that you don’t know everything. I don’t see how that is anything like simply offering a friendly suggestion to try something new.
Convicted OneWell, actually he did opine in absolute terms...
"I believe that to be a better citizen, a person should read more and watch TV news less." This doesn't mean that you are wrong or that I am judging you if you only watch Fox News and never read a paper, does it?
oltmanndSo, I'll retract the "suggest" and even the "recommend". He didn't even go that far. He just stated a belief that you are free to buy into or ignore.
You are being FAR too charitable in your rush to appologize for his overt statements. let's not forget that our current discussion has now evolved into a rebuttal of your statement that he was "taking a beating for stuff he didn't say or even imply "
When he chose to assert in the first person that we should "do the rest of us a favor" he was in fact implying that his POV was representative of the majority (and by definition against those railfans who do NOT see the world "according to Fred")
It was a moderately arrogant summation at best, framing those who might not agree with him as being the odd man out.
LOL, he must be living in a cocoon
Unfortunately Convicted One, I am one who agrees very much with what Fred said. My dealings with many railfans, and I'll admit or point out that it is here in the east, reflects with the why he can say what he does. Further I hate to point at age being a factor, but it is, too. The younger ones are the one's who appear to define railfaning as what is captured through a lens. Period. Point blank. Nothing else. The older, and those who grow older, will branch out into history, operations, replicate modeling, and collecting. And some who stay with the camera sometimes even learn photography enough so as to get away from the zillion milimeter zoom head on shot or the wedgie which goes from one side of the frame to the next (yeah, I said wedgie) or the same spot shot over and over with just the number or color of the locomotive being different each time. Worst of all is the attitude of indignation by them when something else is suggested.
When in the world did we become so intolerant of other's opinions?
Fred doesn't need to apologize for anything. It's everyone who jumped on his case that need to apologize for being uncivilized.
I suspect the ones that reacted most strongly are the ones who don't like the twinge of guilt they felt when they read it. Can't imagine anything else that would motivate such vitriol.
SSSSHHHHHHH--------Sumbunall people----think Sumbunall
Think "Some But Not All"----I did not think I was being intolerant of what he said so much as pointed out that taking a certain viewpoint could get stretched into some awful dang weird positions---hence the need for a new kind of chill pill called "SUMBUNALL"=some but not all----
Sheeesh what a bunch of curmudgeons-------
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I agree that the column is Fred Frailey’s opinion, and he has a perfect right to it. Let me offer my opinion.
I think this needs to be broken down because Fred’s seven points are somewhat like apples and oranges in that some are illegal, and some are merely personal choices that Fred disapproves of. And furthermore, while some of the seven points are based on forum behavior as well as field behavior, some of them are based only on field behavior.
Fred is talking about railfans, but it is not clear how many or which ones. He clearly is referring to all railfan photographers, including himself when he says: “Do you wonder why railroaders don’t have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lens? I’ll tell you why: We haven’t earned it.”
Do non-railroaders have to earn the respect of railroaders? I don’t require anybody to earn my respect. I give it out for free, and then withdraw it only if necessary.
Fred’s seven ways to become a better railfan:
1) Get off your butt: I disagree that this has anything to do with how good of a railfan you are. Some railfans spend their whole life researching railroading in the 1800s. Why would they be better fans if they devoted some of their time to experiencing current day “real thing” railroading, as Fred asserts? Is railroading in the 1800’s not the real thing? Would a railfan who spends all his or her time watching current era trains be “better” if he or she spent a little time researching railroading in the 1800s?
2) Be better informed: I disagree that this necessarily makes one a better railfan. One could argue that the innocent spontaneity of simply hanging around the railroad to see what shows up is more enjoyable than making a big obsessive effort to learn the lineup of what it coming. It is a similar to the assertion that looking at trains through the camera lens detracts from the full sensation of the train experience.
3) Shut up: This seems to reveal something about the Kalmbach culture, how they view this forum, their collective political ideology, how they impose that ideology on this forum and on Trains magazine, and how they view the role of this forum compared to the roll of Trains magazine. I’m not sure which forums Mr. Frailey is referring to with his example of engaging in “vicious so’s-your-mama ideological warfare,” but fortunately we have never had that happen here. It has come close, however, with threads about waving and labor/management issues.
4) Leave your camera at home: I disagree that this has anything to do with how good of a railfan you are. I know people who take lots of photographs, and have become conflicted over whether it is really worthwhile. They may wonder what the ultimate point is in having a big collection of images among their worldly possessions. Compulsively taking photographs can become like an addiction, and some people quit in order to alleviate the burden. And some of these quitters can become like ex-smokers who lecture and condescend to those who still smoke. I would not presume to lecture a photographer about what he or she is missing by using a camera to capture an experience.
5) Use common sense online: I do indeed believe than any railfan would be better if they did not do things that are illegal or damaging to others.
6) Accept that you don’t know everything: Very few people believe that they know everything, and it may or may not be a problem for the ones that do. Mr. Frailey needs to explain how this leads to good reputations getting recklessly shredded, as he asserts.
7) Never become part of the action: I agree with this and my response is a repeat of that for item #5.
I still wonder what you were 'convicted' of, but that is another story. I think Fred got it right. I did the ex-SP 4449 trip over the Rocky Mountains, in "NYC 3" last year. I didn't take "picture-#1" with my Nikon D50, or my film camera. I left my videocams at home. I was having too much fun! Living in the area, I, kind'a, was the 'tour guide' for my fellow PV travelers. Surprisingly, the women were the ones looking out the windows and marveling at the scenery. The men were wondering where lunch was! I was a "Prince" that day! I brought some books with me, about the line over Marias Pass, and shared them with all. They were avidly perused! It was a great trip, especially when we passed thru Essex, MT. There must have been over 200 people waving/greeting us at the Isaac Walton Inn! Sorry! No pix! I do think it was a better trip for not being seen thru the viewfinder alone. On the 4449's WB return, I was on the ground and got a few pix, but my new Mustang GT couldn't keep up with it west of Shelby! Of course, there were a lot of very loonie 'chasers' on the road to Cut Bank, so I turned for home.
Hays
Its too bad so many have taken affront with what Frailey had to say. At least, maybe, he got some to think about what they and/or fellow fans do or not do and to talk about it...it being "being a railfan". Yes, his view is opinion, and yes I pretty much understand and agree with most of what he said. Even still, if we all come away with the understanding that being a railfan can be practiced in so many different ways and, more important, to recognize and respect those different practices.
henry6 Unfortunately Convicted One, I am one who agrees very much with what Fred said.
Unfortunately Convicted One, I am one who agrees very much with what Fred said.
Why is it at all "unfortunate" that you agree with Fred? Seems as though that is your entitlement.
henry6 Its too bad so many have taken affront with what Frailey had to say. .
Its too bad so many have taken affront with what Frailey had to say. .
I suspect that he's probably delighted that one of his columns managed to raise so much interest. That is, afterall, what they are paid to do, write story's that catch the reader's attention.
"Unfortunate" because it seems to foster vehement and retailiatory statements from those who don't agree or understand what he was saying.
Alright, let me say it: I am an old fart. So is Fred. He and I, and others of course, came up in a non technical, non digital, non instant communicative world where soul satifying grataification comes at the click of a button and all ills go away with the popping of a pill; where and when walking, reading, researching, discussing (d i s c u s s i n g not argueing or taking quick offense), relaxing, and learning about, being curious about, and trying to understand the world around one was more the norm than pigeon holing everything and then selectively pick and blindly follow that one interest one way at total expense of all other things and people. Railroading (as a fan) led me into an understanding of georgraphy, commerce, and history, an interest in photography and writing and an opening of other worlds I didn't know existed, and meeting hundreds of people with the same and diverse interests as me Sometime we old farts don't think the younger generation has taken the time to open the available vistas and say something about it. Right or wrong, it is an old farts perogerative.
mmmm--interesting stuff this---
I thought that OPINION pieces were just that--OPINION pieces.
Ergo---not written as a directive from some party apparatchik.
OPINION pieces generate other OPINIONS and, from that then, generate debate. If my opinion is different from someone else's why should this then generate so much heat?
Just saying---------
Zug's 8th way to become a better railfan:
Work for a railroad. Then you will gain a whole new appreciation of the industry. The few times when I actually go out foaming, I take my camera. If I just want to sit there and watch trains pass, I'll go to work where they pay me to do that.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
henry6 "Unfortunate" because it seems to foster vehement and retailiatory statements from those who don't agree or understand what he was saying.. ////{SNIP!!} \\\ Right or wrong, it is an old farts perogerative.
"Unfortunate" because it seems to foster vehement and retailiatory statements from those who don't agree or understand what he was saying.. ////{SNIP!!} \\\ Right or wrong, it is an old farts perogerative.
Ahh, I see, so what you're REALLY saying is "unfortunately, not everyone agrees" (with your and Fred's POV)
fair enough I suppose. do you consider those comments to be 'vehement' simply because they contrast against your views? It's probably not very realistic to expect everyone to agree with you, on ANY one particular subject...which is one of the the things that taints Fred's "Do the rest of us a favor" comment...it's faulty logic for him to assume that all other railfans support his particular disdain(s)
As far as suggesting to the shutterbug addicts that they may have narrowed their potential enjoyment of the hobby, and that they should consider broadening their interests (by leaving the camera at home) I fully agree with him there.
BucyrusI agree that the column is Fred Frailey’s opinion, and he has a perfect right to it. Let me offer my opinion. 2) Be better informed: I disagree that this necessarily makes one a better railfan. One could argue that the innocent spontaneity of simply hanging around the railroad to see what shows up is more enjoyable than making a big obsessive effort to learn the lineup of what it coming. It is a similar to the assertion that looking at trains through the camera lens detracts from the full sensation of the train experience.
I think what Fred was suggesting is that by only mindlessly watching trains go by you are missing out on greater enjoyment. Don't you ever have a bit of curiosity as to where that dimensional load was going, or what is in the tank car, or why there are three units pulling that short train, or how steep that grade is. If one has a question, try to find the answer and enjoy the satisfaction of being better informed.
And another side to this same issue is by being better informed you won't seem as ignorant to the professional railroaders, thus confirming our poor reputation. As an example of ignorance, one fan stated "that locomotive must be really powerful because it is numbered way up in the 9000s". It's an extreme example, perhaps, but similar naivete and ignorance when talking to railroaders just makes them shake their head in disbelief.
Overall I think Fred had some good ideas, even if they need not be taken absolutely literally. In essence he is suggesting we broaden and develop our interests in the hobby, instead of focusing on one narrow aspect. And of course, reminding us to stay safe and courteous.
John
Just to clarify:
I listed Fred’s seven bullet points in bold text. They are Fred’s words. What follows each of them is my response. In Fred’s actual column, he follows the bold headings with his own thorough explanation of what he means by each heading. Perhaps some have not actually seen the column, and that might lead to conjecture about what his bold bullet points mean. If you read his full elaboration of each point, there is no question about what he means.
Convicted One Ahh, I see, so what you're REALLY saying is "unfortunately, not everyone agrees" (with your and Fred's POV)
I really don't give a (instert explitive of choice here) what anybody thinks here...don't put words in my mouth or read anything into what I said more than the words spoken. The fact is that many who have disagreed with Fred (and me to an extent) have had real emotional negative reactions feeling they've been personally attacked. And that's not true of me (and I don't think of Fred, either, but you better ask him). Rather than defend themselves they have lashed out at the message and the messenger(s). Some of it is from a perspective of age, of what was going on in the hobby and the world when we got involved as opposed to today. I think there is more, and has been more, to the railroad hobby than just taking pictures. I also think there is more to it than scale modeling and replication; more than colllecting and assembling toy trains; more than reading history books or collecting memorabalia; more than watchng slide shows, eating donuts and drinking coffee, and going home at the end of a show; more than preserving equipment and buildings; more than just riding trains or sitting and watching them go by. The rail hobby is all of the above and much, much more than I have noted. I don't hold it against anybody who does any one of the above. Or all of the above. But I am against any one who does any one of the above and shows no respect for those who pursue any of the other pursuits and take it as a personal affront to his pursuit.
henry6 Its too bad so many have taken affront with what Frailey had to say. At least, maybe, he got some to think about what they and/or fellow fans do or not do and to talk about it...it being "being a railfan". Yes, his view is opinion, and yes I pretty much understand and agree with most of what he said. Even still, if we all come away with the understanding that being a railfan can be practiced in so many different ways and, more important, to recognize and respect those different practices.
I agree with you in the sense of building tolerance of others practices of railfanning. This whole issue of bashing someone over the beak just because they do their railfanning in 'x' method vs Harry Soandso's method is kind of boring to me.
As for this puppy, I take my camera when I go railfanning. I use the camera a lot. I am attentive to light/shadow/birds/smells---standing by a field of sweet williams and hyacinths in full bloom while one of CP's red GP9's go barrelling by Beachville is my idea of fun times---sounds/people as they all fascinate me. Just because I have a camera in my hand should not mean that I am a dullard and that, therefore, I am not "in the moment"
henry6 I don't hold it against anybody who does any one of the above. Or all of the above. But I am against any one who does any one of the above and shows no respect for those who pursue any of the other pursuits and take it as a personal affront to his pursuit.
I don't hold it against anybody who does any one of the above. Or all of the above. But I am against any one who does any one of the above and shows no respect for those who pursue any of the other pursuits and take it as a personal affront to his pursuit.
Such as admonishing selected groups of the fellowship for failing to behave in ways that industry insiders might find warm-n-fuzzy?
Know what I think? I think that over the past several years there has been far too little discussion here about magazine content.
Mebbe so. Certainly, in my assessment, opinion pieces deserve a response of some kind, but they do invite responses of every conceivable kind. That goes from devout affirmation to derisive dismissal.
Trouble is, neither one is given much credence from those whose responses are honestly more measured. Those people know that a temperate response with some depth of thought will invite further dialog. And in that respect, I think you fellas have done quite well.
For me, a better message in the article might boil down to, "Try this...you may like it!" Or, maybe, "Have you considered doing this or that?" But I would have to agree that all-inclusive and absolutist language tends to get a good chunk of the readership's backs up because they feel they're being judged in terms they don't support or subscribe to. We have these arguments in the hobby forums all the time...my modeling is better than your modeling because I use more raw materials and put them together after measuring and cutting, whereas you buy most of your stuff ready-made. Tsk tsk!! The message is that my enjoyment is a purer form than your mere enjoyment. Piffle! We're to take the speaker's word for it?
Should someone with a $50 point-and-shoot camera be more a purist than the guy with a $2000 DSLR and a fixed focus telephoto worth $7000? And neither is worth more than condescension from the even greater purist who only uses his Mark I eyeball when he watches trains? Puhleese!
-Crandell
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