Fred Frailey: "Seven ways to become a better railfan"

[Convicted One]

In labor towards objectivity, I conceed that Fred has been a railfan longer than I, and during that time has climbed to an esteemed level within rail journalism as well as the hobby itself, and therefore his opinion of what constitutes a "better" railfan is more qualified than mine.

And, I tend to respect informed opinion more so than uninformed opinion, so My hat is off to him in that regard.

And perhaps we can interpret his recommendations that we try to become more knowledgeable, and keep our uninformed opinions to ourselves during the learning process UNTIL such time as we can make informed assessments....as being his way of saying exactly that...that informed opinion is of greatest value, and we can never start  too early building our own?  

 

Ah well, now we go next into that "Roundhouse" issue

[oltmannd]

Bucyrus

I agree that the column is Fred Frailey’s opinion, and he has a perfect right to it.  Let me offer my opinion.

 

I think this needs to be broken down because Fred’s seven points are somewhat like apples and oranges in that some are illegal, and some are merely personal choices that Fred disapproves of.  And furthermore, while some of the seven points are based on forum behavior as well as field behavior, some of them are based only on field behavior.

 

Fred is talking about railfans, but it is not clear how many or which ones.  He clearly is referring to all railfan photographers, including himself when he says:  “Do you wonder why railroaders don’t have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lens?  I’ll tell you why:  We haven’t earned it.”

 

Do non-railroaders have to earn the respect of railroaders?  I don’t require anybody to earn my respect.  I give it out for free, and then withdraw it only if necessary.  

 

Fred’s seven ways to become a better railfan:

 

1)      Get off your butt:  I disagree that this has anything to do with how good of a railfan you are.  Some railfans spend their whole life researching railroading in the 1800s.  Why would they be better fans if they devoted some of their time to experiencing current day “real thing” railroading, as Fred asserts?  Is railroading in the 1800’s not the real thing?  Would a railfan who spends all his or her time watching current era trains be “better” if he or she spent a little time researching railroading in the 1800s?

 

2)      Be better informed:  I disagree that this necessarily makes one a better railfan.  One could argue that the innocent spontaneity of simply hanging around the railroad to see what shows up is more enjoyable than making a big obsessive effort to learn the lineup of what it coming.  It is a similar to the assertion that looking at trains through the camera lens detracts from the full sensation of the train experience.

 

3)      Shut up:  This seems to reveal something about the Kalmbach culture, how they view this forum, their collective political ideology, how they impose that ideology on this forum and on Trains magazine, and how they view the role of this forum compared to the roll of Trains magazine.  I’m not sure which forums Mr. Frailey is referring to with his example of engaging in “vicious so’s-your-mama ideological warfare,” but fortunately we have never had that happen here.  It has come close, however, with threads about waving and labor/management issues.

 

4)      Leave your camera at home:  I disagree that this has anything to do with how good of a railfan you are.  I know people who take lots of photographs, and have become conflicted over whether it is really worthwhile.  They may wonder what the ultimate point is in having a big collection of images among their worldly possessions.  Compulsively taking photographs can become like an addiction, and some people quit in order to alleviate the burden.  And some of these quitters can become like ex-smokers who lecture and condescend to those who still smoke.  I would not presume to lecture a photographer about what he or she is missing by using a camera to capture an experience.

 

5)      Use common sense online:  I do indeed believe than any railfan would be better if they did not do things that are illegal or damaging to others.

 

6)      Accept that you don’t know everything:  Very few people believe that they know everything, and it may or may not be a problem for the ones that do.  Mr. Frailey needs to explain how this leads to good reputations getting recklessly shredded, as he asserts.

 

7)      Never become part of the action:  I agree with this and my response is a repeat of that for item #5.  

 

I like this form of response. A reasoned rebuttal.

I will toss in my own opinion on one question of yours. Does respect have to be earned? I think the answer is "always". To be well respected for something implies that a positive track record exists and is known. The problem with railfan-railroader relations is that railroaders have the impression that railfans are merely geeks behind a shutter. Whether that is correct or not, is immaterial. That's the current state of things. Railroaders don't generally respect railfans. If you are OK with that, then nothing needs to be done. If you want the respect of the railroader, then it has to be demonstrated to them.

[oltmannd]

henry6

Right or wrong, it is an old farts perogerative.

My laugh for the day! Thanks.

[schlimm]

When all's said and done, most people who are interested in the rails will pursue their interest in the specific ways that they have found to be personally satisfying.  It is hard to imagine that very many will railfans engage in behaviors that disturb others or are illegal.  Those that do so are unlikely to change their ways or become enlightened because of words of wisdom from FF or anyone else.

[oltmannd]

schlimm

It is hard to imagine that very many will railfans engage in behaviors that disturb others or are illegal. 

Do you get out much? Second laugh for the day..... (OK, not "very many" may be true, but so would have "too many")

[Ulrich]

Best way to be a railfan is to do whatever it is that you enjoy doing without getting in the way of the people doing the work or breaking any laws..PERIOD. For some people that means photographing the trains while others simply enjoy watching the action and reading about railroads. One thing I've learned over the years...regardless of what it is you do..someone will disapprove... another thing I've learned..it doesn't matter...As for respect..it is always nice to have that...and I don't think respect requires a track record. It can simply be acknowlegement of another's interest or value system. For example...one can have respect for certain professions without knowing anything about the track record fo the individuals who practice those professions...same goes for anything else.

[coborn35]

schlimm

When all's said and done, most people who are interested in the rails will pursue their interest in the specific ways that they have found to be personally satisfying.  It is hard to imagine that very many will railfans engage in behaviors that disturb others or are illegal.  Those that do so are unlikely to change their ways or become enlightened because of words of wisdom from FF or anyone else.

Tell that to John Larkin, or ask me why we paint our brass bells black.

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coborn35

schlimm

When all's said and done, most people who are interested in the rails will pursue their interest in the specific ways that they have found to be personally satisfying.  It is hard to imagine that very many will railfans engage in behaviors that disturb others or are illegal.  Those that do so are unlikely to change their ways or become enlightened because of words of wisdom from FF or anyone else.

Tell that to John Larkin, or ask me why we paint our brass bells black.

Again. Why should a law abiding railfan have to work THAT MUCH HARDER to gain someone else's respect because a CRIMINAL steals bells?

It used to be that we trusted one another to NOT be doing this kind of illegal, risky behaviour. Remember the phrase----innocent until proven guilty? How about respecting others as well as yourself? Do you go around thinking of yourself as a thief? If not then why do you go around assuming that others are?

Now we gotta work hard to do simple things because we ALLOWED the criminal behaviour to assume the role of NORMAL behaviour

[Convicted One]

As a footnote it might be worth mentioning that within the very first paragraph of Fred's piece he is blasting (using the posture of an alleged 'friend' in the industry) online discussion groups for having "too many stupid people spouting off things they know nothing about"

 

Gee, I wonder  who he's "opining" about? 

 

He further goes on to write "do you wonder why railroaders don't have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lense? I'LL TELL YOU WHY: we haven't earned it"

 

his insistence that he knows full well the nature of the "problem" he describes, goes WELL PAST the  posture of "sharing an opinion"

[CopCarSS]

I'll give my perspective on the "Leave the Camera at Home" viewpoint. And this may surprise you, because you all know that one of my main passions in the hobby is photography. I kind of agree with the sentiment for two reasons:

1) My rail knowledge is pathetic, and I'm actually kind of ashamed of it. All it takes is a look at some of the members of this forum to know that I know nothing. I look at posts from MC, RWM, Carl, etc. etc and realize that I don't know enough to even begin to understand what they're talking about. Additionally, I'd love to have enough knowledge to ask intelligent questions like Murph and Gabe do!

Alas, my rail knowledge is very, very limited. Yes, I know what an SD40-2 is, what CTC is, etc, but that's about it. I wish I knew more about railroading as a whole. As a single illustrative example, I wish I understood signalling better so that when a topic about an accident investigation and the signals relating to that accident is brought up I could follow along. There are countless more aspects of railroading I wish I understood.

When I get trackside, it's usually to try and capture an image. Sometimes I think that if I'd set the camera down for a bit and just watch my photography might improve. Or, perhaps if I spent more time in the library learning about the subject I was interested in, it would help me, too.

Alas, I'm so driven by the thought of getting the next shot that I never really do either. Interestingly enough, it's not just rail related. I wish I had half a clue about the landscapes I photograph, too. I wish I understood the geology of what's going on. I wish I knew the names of the flora and fauna in my shots. I wish I understood coyotes better, because I know I'd gett better shots of them. Etc. etc. etc.

Unfortunately, photography is an addiction. I can't go anywhere sans camera. And it seems like I'm always searching for a magic bullet in the form of a new lens or different camera that will suddenly make things better. One of these days I'll learn that learning about my subject might be the magic bullet I've been searching for for a very long time.

2) On the rare occasions that I do set the camera aside, I find that railroading is a great subject to experience in ways beyond a tiny, dark viewfinder. Of course, sometimes I find that out too late. Here's a great example of that:

This is a shot from the 2007 Frontier Days train. Lynn Nystrom had 844 HIGHBALLING! through Brighton here. As you can see, I ended up missing the focus on the shot because she was simply moving too fast for me to follow focus effectively. In retrospect, I wish I had just taken that opportunity to watch and experience a big, beautiful, fast locomotive running like she was meant to.

So yes, I think Fred's advice here is solid. Leaving the camera at home from time to time just might make me a better railfan.

[tree68]

CopCarSS

As you can see, I ended up missing the focus on the shot because she was simply moving too fast for me to follow focus effectively.

But, you ended up with a photo that conveys that far better than words alone would have - both to us and for your own memory - and you were still trackside when she went by.

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tree68

CopCarSS

As you can see, I ended up missing the focus on the shot because she was simply moving too fast for me to follow focus effectively.

But, you ended up with a photo that conveys that far better than words alone would have - both to us and for your own memory - and you were still trackside when she went by.

These kinds of shots I think are more effective in communicating the presence of a locomotive better than some technically 'perfect' shot.

Then again, I hear a lot of artists saying that such and such a piece they've made is a load of hoooey and yet they'd get some art collector buying the dang piece right out under their nose. My wife gets that a lot---

[coborn35]

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coborn35

schlimm

When all's said and done, most people who are interested in the rails will pursue their interest in the specific ways that they have found to be personally satisfying.  It is hard to imagine that very many will railfans engage in behaviors that disturb others or are illegal.  Those that do so are unlikely to change their ways or become enlightened because of words of wisdom from FF or anyone else.

Tell that to John Larkin, or ask me why we paint our brass bells black.

Again. Why should a law abiding railfan have to work THAT MUCH HARDER to gain someone else's respect because a CRIMINAL steals bells?

It used to be that we trusted one another to NOT be doing this kind of illegal, risky behaviour. Remember the phrase----innocent until proven guilty? How about respecting others as well as yourself? Do you go around thinking of yourself as a thief? If not then why do you go around assuming that others are?

Now we gotta work hard to do simple things because we ALLOWED the criminal behaviour to assume the role of NORMAL behaviour

So I should assume everyone is a little angel and nothing ever goes missing? Thats just stupid. Railfans steal things. Not all of them for sure, and not even 1/3 of them. But there are those that do, and I would be an idiot not to prepare for that/ be wary.

[henry6]

It takes but one apple to spoil the whole barrel.  What I fine kettle of fish we're in!

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coborn35

So I should assume everyone is a little angel and nothing ever goes missing? Thats just stupid. Railfans steal things. Not all of them for sure, and not even 1/3 of them. But there are those that do, and I would be an idiot not to prepare for that/ be wary.

Maybe if we weren't so paranoid about all kinds of things and filled with doubt and suspicion of everyone who walk around there might not be any of this looniness to begin with----I'm just saying

Be careful yes---but do not assume that everyone is out to get you----

 

[schlimm]

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coborn35

So I should assume everyone is a little angel and nothing ever goes missing? Thats just stupid. Railfans steal things. Not all of them for sure, and not even 1/3 of them. But there are those that do, and I would be an idiot not to prepare for that/ be wary.

Maybe if we weren't so paranoid about all kinds of things and filled with doubt and suspicion of everyone who walk around there might not be any of this looniness to begin with----I'm just saying

Be careful yes---but do not assume that everyone is out to get you----

 

If Coburn and other railroaders' attitudes on here are at all representative, I guess I for one will be rather cautious around "their" property.  Barry's right; there is way too much paranoia, hysteria and lunacy.

[Deggesty]

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tree68

CopCarSS

As you can see, I ended up missing the focus on the shot because she was simply moving too fast for me to follow focus effectively.

But, you ended up with a photo that conveys that far better than words alone would have - both to us and for your own memory - and you were still trackside when she went by.

These kinds of shots I think are more effective in communicating the presence of a locomotive better than some technically 'perfect' shot.

Then again, I hear a lot of artists saying that such and such a piece they've made is a load of hoooey and yet they'd get some art collector buying the dang piece right out under their nose. My wife gets that a lot---

I agree with Larry and Barry. You were NOT too late, but just right in taking this picture; I get the sense of speed in this picture--she's movin' on!

[oltmannd]

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Again. Why should a law abiding railfan have to work THAT MUCH HARDER to gain someone else's respect because a CRIMINAL steals bells?

Because that's the way it is. It may not be fair, but when you are fighting a bad image, you have try all that much harder to clear it up.

You have two choices. You can whine and complain about the injustice of it all - which changes nothing, or you can get busy and prove the perception is wrong - which might help.

You must not have any teenagers in your house.....

[oltmannd]

Convicted One

As a footnote it might be worth mentioning that within the very first paragraph of Fred's piece he is blasting (using the posture of an alleged 'friend' in the industry) online discussion groups for having "too many stupid people spouting off things they know nothing about"

 

Gee, I wonder  who he's "opining" about? 

 

He further goes on to write "do you wonder why railroaders don't have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lense? I'LL TELL YOU WHY: we haven't earned it"

 

his insistence that he knows full well the nature of the "problem" he describes, goes WELL PAST the  posture of "sharing an opinion"

Are you having trouble telling the difference between an opinion piece and a factual article? Every opinion doesn't have to start with the words "in my opinion"...

Yes, he believes that railfans haven't earned the respect of railroaders and in the piece he tells what he thinks the reasons are. That is all opinion, no? Why does that opinion bother you so much? You care what Fred might think of you? A little blow to the ego, perhaps?

[Anonymous]

oltmannd

Convicted One

As a footnote it might be worth mentioning that within the very first paragraph of Fred's piece he is blasting (using the posture of an alleged 'friend' in the industry) online discussion groups for having "too many stupid people spouting off things they know nothing about"

 

Gee, I wonder  who he's "opining" about? 

 

He further goes on to write "do you wonder why railroaders don't have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lense? I'LL TELL YOU WHY: we haven't earned it"

 

his insistence that he knows full well the nature of the "problem" he describes, goes WELL PAST the  posture of "sharing an opinion"

Are you having trouble telling the difference between an opinion piece and a factual article? Every opinion doesn't have to start with the words "in my opinion"...

Yes, he believes that railfans haven't earned the respect of railroaders and in the piece he tells what he thinks the reasons are. That is all opinion, no? Why does that opinion bother you so much? You care what Fred might think of you? A little blow to the ego, perhaps?

I don’t see any evidence that anyone believes that Frailey had done anything other than offer an opinion.  What else could it be?  You seem to be suggesting that because a statement is only an opinion, it cannot be disagreed with or criticized.    

 

[schlimm]

oltmannd

Convicted One

As a footnote it might be worth mentioning that within the very first paragraph of Fred's piece he is blasting (using the posture of an alleged 'friend' in the industry) online discussion groups for having "too many stupid people spouting off things they know nothing about"

 

Gee, I wonder  who he's "opining" about? 

 

He further goes on to write "do you wonder why railroaders don't have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lense? I'LL TELL YOU WHY: we haven't earned it"

 

his insistence that he knows full well the nature of the "problem" he describes, goes WELL PAST the  posture of "sharing an opinion"

Are you having trouble telling the difference between an opinion piece and a factual article? Every opinion doesn't have to start with the words "in my opinion"...

 

Pretty clearly, Convicted One recognizes Frailey's piece as an opinion piece.   I believe it is a special type of opinion piece, usually known as a harangue.

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oltmannd

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Again. Why should a law abiding railfan have to work THAT MUCH HARDER to gain someone else's respect because a CRIMINAL steals bells?

Because that's the way it is. It may not be fair, but when you are fighting a bad image, you have try all that much harder to clear it up.

You have two choices. You can whine and complain about the injustice of it all - which changes nothing, or you can get busy and prove the perception is wrong - which might help.

You must not have any teenagers in your house.....

Oh yes I have---it's just that there isn't that much hormonal things going with these'uns---yet.

As far as that other stuff goes, one must realize that others don't go 'round beating their chests about being law abiding and all that--we just go quietly about doing the railfanning the way we always done. In my case, making sure that my permits and such are up to date and keeping in regular touch with a few of the guys who work in the areas I usually do my railfanning.

All I ask is that we start to acknowledge that there are those out there who are trying to clean up that image---and not let the idiots become the sole examples of railfandom. Don't let stereotyping become the norm here----

 

[Convicted One]

oltmannd

 Are you having trouble telling the difference between an opinion piece and a factual article? Every opinion doesn't have to start with the words "in my opinion"...

Yes, he believes that railfans haven't earned the respect of railroaders and in the piece he tells what he thinks the reasons are. That is all opinion, no? Why does that opinion bother you so much? You care what Fred might think of you? A little blow to the ego, perhaps?

 

NO!.  lol. It would be more acceptable if'n he had framed his posture as being one of opinion only, but by choosing words as he does (the "I'll tell you why..." bit) he borders upon framing his opinion as "fact" then he proceeds on a rant, harangue,  or whatever you want to call it, faulting those who  evidently fall outside the set of parameters of what he perceives as  "acceptable"

And his opinion of me, or any possible affect it might have on my ego is not the driving force here...What really caught my attention was what seems a glaring faux pas for a seasoned author of his reputation. Writing in absolute terms, he should know better.

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Convicted One

...What really caught my attention was what seems a glaring faux pas for a seasoned author of his reputation. Writing in absolute terms, he should know better.

That chill pill that I'm starting to babble on about might've been of use here---Sumbunall

What if he used a phrase like "Some But Not All-------" in introducing this screed? Qualifiers---remember them?

A bit of sanity might have occured then----

[oltmannd]

Convicted One

It would be more acceptable if'n he had framed his posture as being one of opinion only

It was by definition! His column is an opinion piece every time, just like Phillips.

[Convicted One]

As Poppa Zit was fond of saying : "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They ARE NOT, however, entitled to their own facts"  lol

[timz]

schlimm

Pretty clearly, Convicted One recognizes Frailey's piece as an opinion piece.  

When he says "his insistence that he knows full well the nature of the "problem" he describes, goes WELL PAST the  posture of "sharing an opinion" " it seems clear he doesn't. The mystery is, what does he think it is?

[schlimm]

I realize Frailey is entitled to his opinion.  The problem is his heavy-handed tone of contempt and condescension, as though he were lecturing a group of youthful miscreants and delinquents, when I imagine the median age of railfans and Trains readers is well beyond 30 and 98%+ are law-abiding, tax-paying solid citizens of the community..

[Convicted One]

[oltmannd]

schlimm

The problem is his heavy-handed tone of contempt and condescension, as though he were lecturing a group of youthful miscreants and delinquents, when I imagine the median age of railfans and Trains readers is well beyond 30 and 98%+ are law-abiding, tax-paying solid citizens of the community..

Wow. In my opinion, it was neither heavy-handed in tone, contemptuous nor condescending... YMMV.