Nope, not a schmick. There are changes that I am dealing with as a mod that leave me less than enthusiastic, too. Twice in the past four days I have moved threads that clearly needed moving, and when I clicked on the function, it hung up until I got a blue font oops message on the white background. Closed the browser, opened, found the site, checked the old location, and the thread is gone, moved. Something's weird and using my time in a way I don't appreciate. . I can't email anyone, nor can you, and now we can't edit PM's to each other. If I goof and don't see a doozie, or dispatch an intemperate composition, we are both stuck with it.
If this problem persists, please contact customer service. It has to be 40% of what they do, looking after problems of accessibility to the forums for several weeks after a new package is rolled out.
Also, Wade notified us that he and team have been busy on the other magazine fora dealing with their issues. I think they may be about to tackle some of the problems people have posted here.
-Crandell
selector True enough, CO, and I can understand that it invites a debate about the relative merits or value of what one person thinks we all 'should' do vs. what we are permitted and wish to do. It's like the matter of kneeling when/if we pray; all may, some should, none must. -Crandell
True enough, CO, and I can understand that it invites a debate about the relative merits or value of what one person thinks we all 'should' do vs. what we are permitted and wish to do. It's like the matter of kneeling when/if we pray; all may, some should, none must.
Frailey is a great writer, as evidenced by the interest stimulated by subject magazine article. I always look forward to his contributions.
off topic, but how come I have to log in twice now, under the new framework?
What I'm talking about is, suppose I am not logged on, and hit the [REPLY] button on a thread, I am immediately taken to a page headed with the words " You must be logged on to contribute" with a list box on the left margin for my e-mail address and password on the left margin, and a Red box on the right side sporting a sub heading that reads "Get our free e-mail newsletters"
So, I enter my e-mail addy and password, and when I try to log on I am kicked right back to the same page headed "You must be logged on to contribute", with the list boxes on the left side, and the same red box on the right, but now under that red box is a whitebox that contains my Avatar plus listed bullets reading :
Obviously, your system knows I've logged on or it wouldn't be displaying my avatar, yet I am required to log on a second time before I can access the customary text composition box to make the intended reply.
Any idea why?
schlimm Rather a long pause inn this thread, but maybe time for reflection after 1/2 year. Seems to me everyone should feel free to railfan in the way he/she wants to enjoy themselves, as long as their actions don't hurt or interfere with anyone else or others' properties.
Rather a long pause inn this thread, but maybe time for reflection after 1/2 year.
Seems to me everyone should feel free to railfan in the way he/she wants to enjoy themselves, as long as their actions don't hurt or interfere with anyone else or others' properties.
Wanted to give a couple of rising tempers a chance to simmer down
As far as freedom to pursue ones own destiny goes, Personally i'll agree with you, but this thread is about Mr Frailey's column editorializing on what (he evidently thinks) we SHOULD be doing.
I can't disagree, any more than I could if someone said this about photography in general, railroad modelling, and a myriad of other pursuits. If a person is reasonably in tune with others around them, and makes a conscious effort to refrain from interfering with another's enjoyment, but otherwise pursues her own way through a favourite pastime, what could the problem be? Each of us should be free to do as little or as much in the way of learning and evolvement, call it 'progess', as we wish to. To some, enjoyment comes largely out of discovery, and for others the discovery is fine only being incidental to other aspects of creating enjoyment, even if it is repeating the same old patterns of behaviour.
Rather a long pause inn this thread, but maybe time for reflection after 1/2 year. Seems to me everyone should feel free to railfan in the way he/she wants to enjoy themselves, as long as their actions don't hurt or interfere with anyone else or others' properties.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Perhaps what Fred was trying to convey was that by limiting ones self to too narrow a spectrum, we are depriving ouselves the full, robust experience that the hobby has to offer?
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edblysard wrote the following post on Thursday, February 25, 2010:
Which is why I was slightly put out at the Mr. Frailey's implied concept of there being a "Better" rail fan, which implies that those who don't follow his recommendations are part of a lesser type of rail fan.
oltmanndhenry6If I were a columnist like Fred Frailey or Don Phillips I would be thrilled to get the responses those two generate!I think they'd rather we react to their ideas than how they expressed them!
henry6If I were a columnist like Fred Frailey or Don Phillips I would be thrilled to get the responses those two generate!
Why not both? I'm sure they get all kinds of responses-----
I mean, if everyone agreed with them I'd be thinking they'd be finding it kind of boring--
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
oltmannd. What's really unfair is to pin Fred to a cross for having an opinion we don't particularly like or agree with.
If you ask me, it appears more like those here trying hardest to defend Fred are the ones who really have him 'up on the cross'... fwiw.
oltmanndThe second is what do we use in this case as the measure for better. With tennis, it's pretty easy, if you win more against the same level of opponent, then you are the better player. In this case, we have a pretty well connected guy within the industry laying out those things he thinks would make us "better".
I believe that Fred was crystal clear over the grounds and areas which he feels are most in need of improvement in order for us to qualify as 'better" under his sieve. Considering he began with a rant over why his industry buddies feel uncomfortable sharing online forums with 'un-better' railfans who might harbor an opinion thatconflicts with their preferred personal out look, and his 7 bullets that follow seem tailored towards creating a more "coco-and-marshmallows" type environment for their comfort and pleasure.
henry6But when you can't come up with a good arguement on the facts you always go for character asassination. It is the American way!
But when you can't come up with a good arguement on the facts you always go for character asassination. It is the American way!
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
BucyrusWhy is it unfair for us to criticize Fred while it is not unfair for Fred to criticize us?
You can criticize what Fred said , but when you criticize Fred himself, it's personal. An example would be if one of the "seven ways" was"never jaywalk - a friend of mine was killed by a car while jaywaking". But, someone would argue, "what if it was an emergency?" , or "what if I'm very careful and it's 7 AM on a Sunday morning?", or even "I don't believe in crosswalks?" So, it would that make it wrong to write "never jaywalk?" Would you have to carefully word your statement around every possible argument for fear that someone may internalize your generality? You should write, "for some of you I would suggest that you don't jaywalk unless you are very careful, have a deeply held need to jaywalk or otherwise feel jay walking is a reasonable thing to do,at least some of the time."? No. I don't think so. "Never jaywalk" is a good succinct expression of the point you're trying to make. Should you be offended by someone writing "don't jaywalk"? No. it wasn't personal. But, if someone writes back, "I don't believe you know someone who was killed while jaywalking.", that's calling a specific person a liar and that's personal.
If I were a columnist like Fred Frailey or Don Phillips I would be thrilled to get the responses those two generate!
megh--I think that part of the problem may also be that there is a kind of relationship here between the writer (one who is currently having a column in a publication), and the reader--who is in a position usually seen as mainly passive.
This creates an uneasy situation wherein one has access to a media source( hence, has more influence) than a reader, who, most of the time can shrug his shoulders and carry on---in a somewhat less active position. I heard this termed a type of "power relationship". In that the columnist has a type of power--in this case he has access to print media---that others, ourselves, the reader---do not. Myself I'd rather stick with active/passive pairings here----
All in all, for a reader to criticize a columnist in his/her position will be seen, by some, as "unfair"... for me---not so much----if he can, then we can too....
oltmannd So, we are free to do what we chose to do and measure "better" anyway that we care to rationalize it in our heads. What's really unfair is to pin Fred to a cross for having an opinion we don't particularly like or agree with.
So, we are free to do what we chose to do and measure "better" anyway that we care to rationalize it in our heads. What's really unfair is to pin Fred to a cross for having an opinion we don't particularly like or agree with.
Don,
I generally agree with much of what you say except that I don’t understand this part:
Why is it unfair for us to criticize Fred while it is not unfair for Fred to criticize us?
You seem to be exaggerating our criticism of Fred (saying we are pinning Fred to a cross) while deemphasizing Fred’s criticism of railfan behavior that he does not prefer. I don’t think anything said here is any harsher than what Fred has said about certain fan behavior.
edblysardCould he be a "better" rail fan? ...Why, what's wrong with being the type of fan he currently is?
Could he be a "better" rail fan?
...Why, what's wrong with being the type of fan he currently is?
I think we are confusing a couple of things. First, is whether or not someone wants to get "better" or is happy with the status quo. I could be a better tennis player, but I'd have to be more motivated to practice, care about winning more and spend some money for lessons. However, I like where I am and enjoy tennis just fine. That does not invalidate those things that would make me better, just because I don't chose to do them.
The second is what do we use in this case as the measure for better. With tennis, it's pretty easy, if you win more against the same level of opponent, then you are the better player. In this case, we have a pretty well connected guy within the industry laying out those things he thinks would make us "better". This is his opinion and is no different than some newpaper columnist telling us "what's wrong with America" or why we should support some cause they hold near and dear. It's all their opinion based on a loose (usually) collection of facts and their value system and view of the issue.
Ed:
You stated it quite well. My interest in railroading has changed dramatically over the years. I will take an occassional photo, but find that being on or near railroad property is something which I am uncomfortable about. Just my personal view. The railroaders have a job to do. The last thing they need to worry about is an extra person near the tracks. Plus, there is danger involved.
I recall back in the 70's having absolutely no problems with marching up the steps to a tower and walking in and discussing the lineup....and hopefully staying around a bit.
Flash forward to earlier this decade when I did that at Lennox Tower near St. Louis and the glares from the occupants when I walked in with a camera around my neck. This was their property, their jobs, their responsibility. I quickly apologized and left. Since then I have been invited into a tower, but feel like I shouldnt be there. The operator is hospitable and has invited me in a couple of times, but still.
A few years ago a person got very intrusive into my job. It bugged me. He kept calling (made the mistake of giving him my card) and asking about the industry, my accounts, my employer, etc. It really bugged me when my boss said he was using me as a recommendation for a sales job.
So, sometimes we have to ask ourselves how would we like to be treated...on our jobs.
Even at times here on this forum I feel as if I am pushing a bit too hard for info. No doubt an outsider to this forum would scratch their heads and say...."why does this MP173 want to know about _______(HBD, grades, signals, etc)".
Probably the same reason I want to know why a major 7th chord sounds so different than a minor 7th, or why my 3.5mm ETX cannot resolve certain double stars on certain nights, but can on others, or why curling is so fascinating.
We all have interests, sometimes we are guilty of allowing those interests to cross the line. We all collect things, whether it is Official Guides, photos of locomotives (or cars), the ability to play a song on a guitar, Messier objects, miles on bicyles, or laps in a pool. At this point in my life, safety and consideration are critical for me.
Just my opinion.
Ed
edblysard My opinion only, not intended to be instructions on rail fanning nor intended to be taken any more seriously than my avatar. I really get tickled with the myth that all railroaders dislike or have no respect for railfans.
My opinion only, not intended to be instructions on rail fanning nor intended to be taken any more seriously than my avatar.
I really get tickled with the myth that all railroaders dislike or have no respect for railfans.
Johnny
Not so, in fact, most railroaders are closet fans themselves.
Trust me, you really have to like the equipment and attendant hardware to work around this stuff every day, if you didn't enjoy the sights, sounds, smells and feel of railroading, this stuff is really scary and frightening up close...it only takes a few seconds of being a foot away from a covered hopper rolling at 10 mph to realize how easy this stuff can kill you and how dangerous it is.
It really doesn't bother us that you are out there taking photos, or recording locomotive numbers in a notebook, as long as you follow the common sense rules...stay off the property and stay out of the way.
Don't take what isn't yours ( steal stuff), and don't interrupt me while I am working.
When you break these simple rules, you put yourself in danger, which in turn puts me and my crew in danger, because now we have the extra burden of watching out not only for our selves and fellow crew, but we have to make sure we don't kill you in the meantime.
No, you don't have to steal stuff...if you catch us when we are having a water break, and walk up and ask, "Hey, can I have one of those tie plates and a spike?"...well, odds are yes, we will makes jokes about you when we get back in the cab, but the odds are just as good that one of us will pick up a old tie plate and spike and walk it over to you, heck, we might even toss in a switch list or train sheet too, because while these things are nothing more than hardware and tools of the trade to us, we really do understand that to you, they are artifacts.
But most of us do get a little ego boost when you show up, its kinda neat to think that what we do as job elicits such a large amount of interest.
Sorta cool to realize what I consider a simple part of my daily routine seems to be such a enjoyable mystery to others.
Yup, some of us do vocalize a dislike of fans, because inside the culture of railroading that is what is expected...just like firefighters who spend their day putting out fires, when they also get a rush at the sheer power and energy the fire has, and they enjoy being near it...publicly, they tell you they hate what fire does, privately they get their groove on watching the show, and then gaining control over the monster.
You don't fight fires if you don't like fire, and you don't work for a railroad if you don't like trains.
As to this thread and Mr. Frailey's column.
Never knew there was a protocol about being a rail fan, I was under the impression they come in all different styles, shapes and flavors.
It seems to say that regardless of how your currently enjoy this hobby, you have to do something different to upgrade to being a better fan.
Discussed and derided here was the guy who spends a entire day at the end of a bridge taking the same basic photo of every train that crosses the bridge.
Maybe he should plug his ears with cotton balls and blindfold himself, and spend the day smelling the trains...or leave his camera at home and simply watch...maybe the blindfold along with hearing and smelling would make him a "better" fan...
Or....
Did it ever occur to anyone he may simply enjoy doing what he does more than any other aspect of rail fanning?
I know of a forum member who "collects" cars...not in the strict sense of actually buying the cars, but he collects the car number, he belongs to a group that tracks and catalogs cars in certain series, some rare cars, some old almost vanished cars, modern groups of new car types, they trade and swap the info and thoroughly enjoy what they do.
Are they weird, or bad rail fans?
No, they just have discovered a different way of enjoying trains and freight cars.
By the way, this same fan has co authored a few excellent books on freight cars, and is considered a expert in that field, if he can't answer your question about a particular car himself, he knows someone who can.
Why, what's wrong with being the type of fan he currently is?
I have read this thread, noticed that every thing from the semantics of the column to the intent and opinion of the author has been folded, bent, spindled and militated, cussed and discussed and pretty much turned inside out, in what appears to be an attempt to find or define the "basic model" of a "better" rail fan.
Good luck with that.
By the way, most of us who work for a railroad despise being called "rails"... which are the steel things the train wheels roll on.
We're railroaders, not rails.
23 17 46 11
Enuf!, methinks!!! Fred was only expressing his opinion. Don't get your 'panties-in-a-wad' so quickly. Let's revisit this subject in six months. After all, it did pass the 'censors' in Milwaukee.
Hays -- Nikon D50, three Sony Hi8s, and a Pentax filmer, none of which I really use. I'd rather watch, most of the time. Hmmm... I remember an XXX-Rated film by that.... 'Nuff said, before I get in trouble again! Out.
We all have egos. If we didn’t, we would not believe that we know who we are. Any ego that feels unjustly chastised by another ego will feel defensive and insecure. Insecurity is also a hallmark of egos that want others to believe what they believe.
oltmanndJayPotterIf my protecting-the-relationship theory is at all accurateInteresting idea. I'm more inclined to think it's about protecting ego. It's tied to an internal measure of self-worth.
JayPotterIf my protecting-the-relationship theory is at all accurate
It's tied to an internal measure of self-worth.
I agree entirely, at least in relation to myself.
I think that, with the exception of relationships with members of my family and people with whom I served in the military, all of my relationships involve ego. And I suspect that the relationship with the greatest ego factor is the one with CSXT because that's the relationship which I've made the greatest effort, over the longest period of time, to maintain.
Convicted OneJust as an illustration, where he claims in #3 that "no-one is interested in your opinion" it was just plain foolish for him to write the way he did, claiming that not one other person has any such interest. Any reader can immediately invalidate such a spansive claim, if through no other means than the knowing of just one other friend who might have such an interest. I enjoy debating current events with friends while waiting between trains, and frequently those topics include political topics.So, Fred has clearly made a mis-statement here, one that was too easy to invalidate ...perhaps what he was hoping to achieve was to inject a little insecurity into the more outspoken with his over the top summation, but made it so poorly that it's easy to disqualify. Now perhaps if he had worded a little smarter with a comment such as "You'd might be surprised to learn that MOST of the rest of us are not that interested in what your opinion is" (or wording to that effect) it still delivers the same message, without the easy to assail flaw in logic.
Just as an illustration, where he claims in #3 that "no-one is interested in your opinion" it was just plain foolish for him to write the way he did, claiming that not one other person has any such interest. Any reader can immediately invalidate such a spansive claim, if through no other means than the knowing of just one other friend who might have such an interest. I enjoy debating current events with friends while waiting between trains, and frequently those topics include political topics.
So, Fred has clearly made a mis-statement here, one that was too easy to invalidate ...perhaps what he was hoping to achieve was to inject a little insecurity into the more outspoken with his over the top summation, but made it so poorly that it's easy to disqualify. Now perhaps if he had worded a little smarter with a comment such as "You'd might be surprised to learn that MOST of the rest of us are not that interested in what your opinion is" (or wording to that effect) it still delivers the same message, without the easy to assail flaw in logic.
timzschlimmalready have done so."Contemptuous and condescending", you said. Show us an example of that, and show us how you'd rewrite it. No one has done any of that.
schlimmalready have done so.
While I don't feel Fred Frailey has to be defended, I do think his views have to. I have organized and operated train trips (500+ passenger, etc.) on several occasions; I have worked with a museum group; I have been member and officer of several railfan clubs. And I have tried to shy away from railfans for the very problems Frailey discusses and states in his column and because of a lot of remarks seen on these threads. Fans can be difficult to deal with in a real railroad situation, they have to be told what to do and what not to do (told because asking them brings on an arguement) about everything from behavior for safety, propriety in front of railroaders (from the lowest ranks to the President!), and in front of a public which reaches conclusions about railroads and railfans. I've had member wanting to pirate and dupe commercial tapes and sell them, I've seen newpaper letters undercutting the relataionships of the clubs and the railroads because the fan didn't think. I have been a fan, too. But I think, at least hope, that I've been respectiful of those whose property I have been on and whose business I have monitored and whose employees I have made friends with. If no one understands that this is what Frailey's remarks are all about, then railfans are in big trouble. I know I have pulled back from many so called railfan activities, not gotten invloved with several organizations, and have chosen my "railfan buddies" carefully so as to avoid the bores Frailey addresses.
oltmanndThat's what I don't get. Why are some so piqued over the tone used to state an opinion?!
I obviously have no way of knowing why others feel the way that they do; but I suspect that it has something to do with a tendency of railfans to be protective, for lack of a better term, of whatever relationships we have with the industry. My interest in the industry is focused on CSXT. If I worked for CSXT, my relationship to it would be relatively well defined; and I presumably would have some idea of, and control over, the factors that could effect that relationship. But because I don't work for CSXT, my relationship to it is not well defined; and so I pay particularly close attention to factors that might effect that relationship. Nothing that Frailey wrote fit within that category, so I had no more than a passing interest in what he wrote. But if -- as may have been the case with other people -- he phrased some statement in a way that I felt might have an adverse effect on whatever relationship I had with some segment of the industry, I expect that I would have been troubled by that statement.
If my protecting-the-relationship theory is at all accurate, the reason that comments about Frailey's statements and/or tone vary so much is that each of the commentators has a different relationship with the industry. For example, if (1) my activities as a railfan brought me into contact with railroaders who knew me only as as an unfamiliar visiting railfan and (2) I felt that what Frailey said, or how he said it, portrayed railfans in general unfavorably, then I might feel that even this very general relationship might have been weakened. I don't know if it would be realistic for me to feel that way; but I still might feel that way.
A perceptive question. No, I glanced over it and decided it wasn't of interest. I'm only responding to what I read here.
timz,
I'm just curious. Did you read the column?
timzYou say "If someone says to another (or you) -- " and you're right, if Frailey had busted down your front door and walked in and said that to you, you could reasonably be piqued.
schlimmIf someone says to another (or you) -- 1) Get off your butt 2) Be better informed 3) Shut up -- many would regard that mode of written address as fitting the adjectives I used [i.e. "contemptuous and condescending"].
So let's try the rewrite. Instead of saying "Get off your butt", he should have said "You really ought to try to get out more, unless of course you're too busy working around the house, or your job or some very worthwhile facet of your hobby entails sitting in that chair, or perhaps you're disabled, in which case please ignore what I just said."
You say "If someone says to another (or you) -- " and you're right, if Frailey had busted down your front door and walked in and said that to you, you could reasonably be piqued. But he didn't do that. He figured his readers had sense enough to know the difference between a magazine essay and one-on-one conversation; next time he'll know better.
If Frailey had wanted to be "contemptuous and condescending" in a magazine essay, he would write "Each and every one of you Trains readers is a hilariously useless schlub. Yes, I mean you! And oh yes, you're ugly, too."
blownout cylinderoltmanndYes, he believes that railfans haven't earned the respect of railroaders and in the piece he tells what he thinks the reasons are. That is all opinion, no? Why does that opinion bother you so much? You care what Fred might think of you? A little blow to the ego, perhaps? It is opinion---and, like Fred, others have their opinion. Mine is that if I'm expected to earn someone's respect that there be some allowance for that recognition of OTHERS attempts at such 'cleaning' up of that reputation. As it is, it appears that all of the law abiding railfans seemed to have been dumped into the same bucket as the people who cause the issues. This comes across as one of those scenarios that we see when university starts up and a FEW idiots cause a problem----the rest get to be told how terrible they are. That is why I crab about stereotyping---
oltmanndYes, he believes that railfans haven't earned the respect of railroaders and in the piece he tells what he thinks the reasons are. That is all opinion, no? Why does that opinion bother you so much? You care what Fred might think of you? A little blow to the ego, perhaps?
It is opinion---and, like Fred, others have their opinion.
Mine is that if I'm expected to earn someone's respect that there be some allowance for that recognition of OTHERS attempts at such 'cleaning' up of that reputation. As it is, it appears that all of the law abiding railfans seemed to have been dumped into the same bucket as the people who cause the issues.
This comes across as one of those scenarios that we see when university starts up and a FEW idiots cause a problem----the rest get to be told how terrible they are.
That is why I crab about stereotyping---
Normally I admire and enjoy Mr. Frailey's writing, but this one left me puzzled. In point #2 he advocates for a scanner, laptop with wireless capability and timetables. Those are all good suggestions. However, then comes point #4 about leaving your camera at home.
This forum doesn't sponsor a weekly contest for the best audio recording! If I am going to railfan without some gagets, the camera is going to be the last one to go.
timzPeople have quoted things they didn't like. Nobody has spelled out what he said that was "contemptuous and condescending"-- that description having just been used a few posts ago. In any case, makes more sense for the person that used those words to tell us which writing he's referring to. No way for the rest of us to know.
People have quoted things they didn't like. Nobody has spelled out what he said that was "contemptuous and condescending"-- that description having just been used a few posts ago.
In any case, makes more sense for the person that used those words to tell us which writing he's referring to. No way for the rest of us to know.
Many apparently know, just not you. If someone says to another (or you) --
1) Get off your butt
2) Be better informed
3) Shut up
-- many would regard that mode of written address as fitting the adjectives I used.
Bucyrus It should be noted that item #2 Be better informed, is not about becoming more knowledgeable about the railroad industry in general, so you can gain the respect of railroaders. Insead, it is about being better informed about the location of trains on a particular piece of railroad. Mr. Frailey advises getting a scanner and timetables. And he says you would be crazy not to join Yahoo’s ATCS Monitor group. He mentions fans that have set up a system of radio receivers and computers servers every 30 or so miles from Richmond, VA. To Miami, giving you on the Internet a dispatcher’s view of the whole route. He says you can go on the road and get the big picture by bringing a laptop and wireless modem.
It should be noted that item #2 Be better informed, is not about becoming more knowledgeable about the railroad industry in general, so you can gain the respect of railroaders.
Insead, it is about being better informed about the location of trains on a particular piece of railroad. Mr. Frailey advises getting a scanner and timetables. And he says you would be crazy not to join Yahoo’s ATCS Monitor group. He mentions fans that have set up a system of radio receivers and computers servers every 30 or so miles from Richmond, VA. To Miami, giving you on the Internet a dispatcher’s view of the whole route. He says you can go on the road and get the big picture by bringing a laptop and wireless modem.
To me that sounds too much like a job...my idea of railfanning is vegging out at trackside on a Sunday afternoon with sandwich in hand. But like I said earlier..to each his own. There's alot to be said for keeping things simple..
DeggestyI agree with Larry and Barry. You were NOT too late, but just right in taking this picture; I get the sense of speed in this picture--she's movin' on!
timz schlimmalready have done so."Contemptuous and condescending", you said. Show us an example of that, and show us how you'd rewrite it. No one has done any of that.
Why don't you attempt to read the posts already posted? The comments are all over this thread---
Maybe you are just baiting?
timzGive us an example of his contemptuous and condescending tone. Might as well show us how you'd rewrite it, too.
I, Bucyrus, tree, and others already have done so. I wouldn't have written to tell/suggest to anyone how to be a better fan other than to respect others' rights and property.
I'm reminded of a common character in the rail modelling world - the "armchair modeller."
For any of a number of reasons, the armchair modeller doesn't have a layout. Maybe no space, maybe no money, maybe no desire to actually construct a layout as he's perfectly happy just planning one.
One modeller, featured numerous times in MR, built buildings. Large and small (outhouses a specialty, including a brick number in the shape of a woman's torso), he built them all, then gave them to the folks that had layouts to put them on. IIRC, he might have had a small layout once, but after that stuck to buildings.
I rather liken some of Mr Frailey's advice to telling an armchair modeller that he needs to build a layout. There's a reason they don't, and all the advice in the world isn't going to change that.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
schlimmThe problem is his heavy-handed tone of contempt and condescension
BucyrusFred’s seven ways to become a better railfan: 1) Get off your butt: 2) Be better informed: 3) Shut up: 4) Leave your camera at home: 5) Use common sense online: 6) Accept that you don’t know everything: 7) Never become part of the action
This is one of those occasions where I find I agree with Bucyrus and fail to quite see Don Oltmann's point, a reversal of my usual reaction. As I have said, Frailey is entitled to his opinion but the tone strikes me as overly strident if he really expects to persuade anyone to do what he preaches. Points # 2, 5, and 7 seem reasonable in tone. #6 goes without saying, unless Frailey is projecting there. But # 1, 3, 4 ?
schlimmThe problem is his heavy-handed tone of contempt and condescension, as though he were lecturing a group of youthful miscreants and delinquents, when I imagine the median age of railfans and Trains readers is well beyond 30 and 98%+ are law-abiding, tax-paying solid citizens of the community..
I realize Frailey is entitled to his opinion. The problem is his heavy-handed tone of contempt and condescension, as though he were lecturing a group of youthful miscreants and delinquents, when I imagine the median age of railfans and Trains readers is well beyond 30 and 98%+ are law-abiding, tax-paying solid citizens of the community..
schlimmPretty clearly, Convicted One recognizes Frailey's piece as an opinion piece.
As Poppa Zit was fond of saying : "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They ARE NOT, however, entitled to their own facts" lol
Convicted One It would be more acceptable if'n he had framed his posture as being one of opinion only
Convicted One...What really caught my attention was what seems a glaring faux pas for a seasoned author of his reputation. Writing in absolute terms, he should know better.
That chill pill that I'm starting to babble on about might've been of use here---Sumbunall
What if he used a phrase like "Some But Not All-------" in introducing this screed? Qualifiers---remember them?
A bit of sanity might have occured then----
oltmannd Are you having trouble telling the difference between an opinion piece and a factual article? Every opinion doesn't have to start with the words "in my opinion"... Yes, he believes that railfans haven't earned the respect of railroaders and in the piece he tells what he thinks the reasons are. That is all opinion, no? Why does that opinion bother you so much? You care what Fred might think of you? A little blow to the ego, perhaps?
Are you having trouble telling the difference between an opinion piece and a factual article? Every opinion doesn't have to start with the words "in my opinion"...
Yes, he believes that railfans haven't earned the respect of railroaders and in the piece he tells what he thinks the reasons are. That is all opinion, no? Why does that opinion bother you so much? You care what Fred might think of you? A little blow to the ego, perhaps?
NO!. lol. It would be more acceptable if'n he had framed his posture as being one of opinion only, but by choosing words as he does (the "I'll tell you why..." bit) he borders upon framing his opinion as "fact" then he proceeds on a rant, harangue, or whatever you want to call it, faulting those who evidently fall outside the set of parameters of what he perceives as "acceptable"
And his opinion of me, or any possible affect it might have on my ego is not the driving force here...What really caught my attention was what seems a glaring faux pas for a seasoned author of his reputation. Writing in absolute terms, he should know better.
oltmanndblownout cylinderAgain. Why should a law abiding railfan have to work THAT MUCH HARDER to gain someone else's respect because a CRIMINAL steals bells?Because that's the way it is. It may not be fair, but when you are fighting a bad image, you have try all that much harder to clear it up. You have two choices. You can whine and complain about the injustice of it all - which changes nothing, or you can get busy and prove the perception is wrong - which might help. You must not have any teenagers in your house.....
blownout cylinderAgain. Why should a law abiding railfan have to work THAT MUCH HARDER to gain someone else's respect because a CRIMINAL steals bells?
You have two choices. You can whine and complain about the injustice of it all - which changes nothing, or you can get busy and prove the perception is wrong - which might help.
You must not have any teenagers in your house.....
Oh yes I have---it's just that there isn't that much hormonal things going with these'uns---yet.
As far as that other stuff goes, one must realize that others don't go 'round beating their chests about being law abiding and all that--we just go quietly about doing the railfanning the way we always done. In my case, making sure that my permits and such are up to date and keeping in regular touch with a few of the guys who work in the areas I usually do my railfanning.
All I ask is that we start to acknowledge that there are those out there who are trying to clean up that image---and not let the idiots become the sole examples of railfandom. Don't let stereotyping become the norm here----
oltmanndConvicted OneAs a footnote it might be worth mentioning that within the very first paragraph of Fred's piece he is blasting (using the posture of an alleged 'friend' in the industry) online discussion groups for having "too many stupid people spouting off things they know nothing about" Gee, I wonder who he's "opining" about? He further goes on to write "do you wonder why railroaders don't have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lense? I'LL TELL YOU WHY: we haven't earned it" his insistence that he knows full well the nature of the "problem" he describes, goes WELL PAST the posture of "sharing an opinion" Are you having trouble telling the difference between an opinion piece and a factual article? Every opinion doesn't have to start with the words "in my opinion"...
Convicted OneAs a footnote it might be worth mentioning that within the very first paragraph of Fred's piece he is blasting (using the posture of an alleged 'friend' in the industry) online discussion groups for having "too many stupid people spouting off things they know nothing about" Gee, I wonder who he's "opining" about? He further goes on to write "do you wonder why railroaders don't have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lense? I'LL TELL YOU WHY: we haven't earned it" his insistence that he knows full well the nature of the "problem" he describes, goes WELL PAST the posture of "sharing an opinion"
As a footnote it might be worth mentioning that within the very first paragraph of Fred's piece he is blasting (using the posture of an alleged 'friend' in the industry) online discussion groups for having "too many stupid people spouting off things they know nothing about"
Gee, I wonder who he's "opining" about?
He further goes on to write "do you wonder why railroaders don't have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lense? I'LL TELL YOU WHY: we haven't earned it"
his insistence that he knows full well the nature of the "problem" he describes, goes WELL PAST the posture of "sharing an opinion"
Pretty clearly, Convicted One recognizes Frailey's piece as an opinion piece. I believe it is a special type of opinion piece, usually known as a harangue.
oltmanndConvicted One As a footnote it might be worth mentioning that within the very first paragraph of Fred's piece he is blasting (using the posture of an alleged 'friend' in the industry) online discussion groups for having "too many stupid people spouting off things they know nothing about" Gee, I wonder who he's "opining" about? He further goes on to write "do you wonder why railroaders don't have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lense? I'LL TELL YOU WHY: we haven't earned it" his insistence that he knows full well the nature of the "problem" he describes, goes WELL PAST the posture of "sharing an opinion" Are you having trouble telling the difference between an opinion piece and a factual article? Every opinion doesn't have to start with the words "in my opinion"... Yes, he believes that railfans haven't earned the respect of railroaders and in the piece he tells what he thinks the reasons are. That is all opinion, no? Why does that opinion bother you so much? You care what Fred might think of you? A little blow to the ego, perhaps?
Convicted One As a footnote it might be worth mentioning that within the very first paragraph of Fred's piece he is blasting (using the posture of an alleged 'friend' in the industry) online discussion groups for having "too many stupid people spouting off things they know nothing about" Gee, I wonder who he's "opining" about? He further goes on to write "do you wonder why railroaders don't have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lense? I'LL TELL YOU WHY: we haven't earned it" his insistence that he knows full well the nature of the "problem" he describes, goes WELL PAST the posture of "sharing an opinion"
I don’t see any evidence that anyone believes that Frailey had done anything other than offer an opinion. What else could it be? You seem to be suggesting that because a statement is only an opinion, it cannot be disagreed with or criticized.
blownout cylinder tree68 CopCarSSAs you can see, I ended up missing the focus on the shot because she was simply moving too fast for me to follow focus effectively. But, you ended up with a photo that conveys that far better than words alone would have - both to us and for your own memory - and you were still trackside when she went by. These kinds of shots I think are more effective in communicating the presence of a locomotive better than some technically 'perfect' shot. Then again, I hear a lot of artists saying that such and such a piece they've made is a load of hoooey and yet they'd get some art collector buying the dang piece right out under their nose. My wife gets that a lot---
tree68 CopCarSSAs you can see, I ended up missing the focus on the shot because she was simply moving too fast for me to follow focus effectively. But, you ended up with a photo that conveys that far better than words alone would have - both to us and for your own memory - and you were still trackside when she went by.
CopCarSSAs you can see, I ended up missing the focus on the shot because she was simply moving too fast for me to follow focus effectively.
But, you ended up with a photo that conveys that far better than words alone would have - both to us and for your own memory - and you were still trackside when she went by.
These kinds of shots I think are more effective in communicating the presence of a locomotive better than some technically 'perfect' shot.
Then again, I hear a lot of artists saying that such and such a piece they've made is a load of hoooey and yet they'd get some art collector buying the dang piece right out under their nose. My wife gets that a lot---
blownout cylindercoborn35 So I should assume everyone is a little angel and nothing ever goes missing? Thats just stupid. Railfans steal things. Not all of them for sure, and not even 1/3 of them. But there are those that do, and I would be an idiot not to prepare for that/ be wary. Maybe if we weren't so paranoid about all kinds of things and filled with doubt and suspicion of everyone who walk around there might not be any of this looniness to begin with----I'm just saying Be careful yes---but do not assume that everyone is out to get you----
coborn35 So I should assume everyone is a little angel and nothing ever goes missing? Thats just stupid. Railfans steal things. Not all of them for sure, and not even 1/3 of them. But there are those that do, and I would be an idiot not to prepare for that/ be wary.
Maybe if we weren't so paranoid about all kinds of things and filled with doubt and suspicion of everyone who walk around there might not be any of this looniness to begin with----I'm just saying
Be careful yes---but do not assume that everyone is out to get you----
If Coburn and other railroaders' attitudes on here are at all representative, I guess I for one will be rather cautious around "their" property. Barry's right; there is way too much paranoia, hysteria and lunacy.
It takes but one apple to spoil the whole barrel. What I fine kettle of fish we're in!
blownout cylindercoborn35schlimm When all's said and done, most people who are interested in the rails will pursue their interest in the specific ways that they have found to be personally satisfying. It is hard to imagine that very many will railfans engage in behaviors that disturb others or are illegal. Those that do so are unlikely to change their ways or become enlightened because of words of wisdom from FF or anyone else. Tell that to John Larkin, or ask me why we paint our brass bells black. Again. Why should a law abiding railfan have to work THAT MUCH HARDER to gain someone else's respect because a CRIMINAL steals bells? It used to be that we trusted one another to NOT be doing this kind of illegal, risky behaviour. Remember the phrase----innocent until proven guilty? How about respecting others as well as yourself? Do you go around thinking of yourself as a thief? If not then why do you go around assuming that others are? Now we gotta work hard to do simple things because we ALLOWED the criminal behaviour to assume the role of NORMAL behaviour
coborn35schlimm When all's said and done, most people who are interested in the rails will pursue their interest in the specific ways that they have found to be personally satisfying. It is hard to imagine that very many will railfans engage in behaviors that disturb others or are illegal. Those that do so are unlikely to change their ways or become enlightened because of words of wisdom from FF or anyone else. Tell that to John Larkin, or ask me why we paint our brass bells black.
schlimm When all's said and done, most people who are interested in the rails will pursue their interest in the specific ways that they have found to be personally satisfying. It is hard to imagine that very many will railfans engage in behaviors that disturb others or are illegal. Those that do so are unlikely to change their ways or become enlightened because of words of wisdom from FF or anyone else.
When all's said and done, most people who are interested in the rails will pursue their interest in the specific ways that they have found to be personally satisfying. It is hard to imagine that very many will railfans engage in behaviors that disturb others or are illegal. Those that do so are unlikely to change their ways or become enlightened because of words of wisdom from FF or anyone else.
Again. Why should a law abiding railfan have to work THAT MUCH HARDER to gain someone else's respect because a CRIMINAL steals bells?
It used to be that we trusted one another to NOT be doing this kind of illegal, risky behaviour. Remember the phrase----innocent until proven guilty? How about respecting others as well as yourself? Do you go around thinking of yourself as a thief? If not then why do you go around assuming that others are?
Now we gotta work hard to do simple things because we ALLOWED the criminal behaviour to assume the role of NORMAL behaviour
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
I'll give my perspective on the "Leave the Camera at Home" viewpoint. And this may surprise you, because you all know that one of my main passions in the hobby is photography. I kind of agree with the sentiment for two reasons:
1) My rail knowledge is pathetic, and I'm actually kind of ashamed of it. All it takes is a look at some of the members of this forum to know that I know nothing. I look at posts from MC, RWM, Carl, etc. etc and realize that I don't know enough to even begin to understand what they're talking about. Additionally, I'd love to have enough knowledge to ask intelligent questions like Murph and Gabe do!
Alas, my rail knowledge is very, very limited. Yes, I know what an SD40-2 is, what CTC is, etc, but that's about it. I wish I knew more about railroading as a whole. As a single illustrative example, I wish I understood signalling better so that when a topic about an accident investigation and the signals relating to that accident is brought up I could follow along. There are countless more aspects of railroading I wish I understood.
When I get trackside, it's usually to try and capture an image. Sometimes I think that if I'd set the camera down for a bit and just watch my photography might improve. Or, perhaps if I spent more time in the library learning about the subject I was interested in, it would help me, too.
Alas, I'm so driven by the thought of getting the next shot that I never really do either. Interestingly enough, it's not just rail related. I wish I had half a clue about the landscapes I photograph, too. I wish I understood the geology of what's going on. I wish I knew the names of the flora and fauna in my shots. I wish I understood coyotes better, because I know I'd gett better shots of them. Etc. etc. etc.
Unfortunately, photography is an addiction. I can't go anywhere sans camera. And it seems like I'm always searching for a magic bullet in the form of a new lens or different camera that will suddenly make things better. One of these days I'll learn that learning about my subject might be the magic bullet I've been searching for for a very long time.
2) On the rare occasions that I do set the camera aside, I find that railroading is a great subject to experience in ways beyond a tiny, dark viewfinder. Of course, sometimes I find that out too late. Here's a great example of that:
This is a shot from the 2007 Frontier Days train. Lynn Nystrom had 844 HIGHBALLING! through Brighton here. As you can see, I ended up missing the focus on the shot because she was simply moving too fast for me to follow focus effectively. In retrospect, I wish I had just taken that opportunity to watch and experience a big, beautiful, fast locomotive running like she was meant to.
So yes, I think Fred's advice here is solid. Leaving the camera at home from time to time just might make me a better railfan.
-ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams
schlimmWhen all's said and done, most people who are interested in the rails will pursue their interest in the specific ways that they have found to be personally satisfying. It is hard to imagine that very many will railfans engage in behaviors that disturb others or are illegal. Those that do so are unlikely to change their ways or become enlightened because of words of wisdom from FF or anyone else.
Best way to be a railfan is to do whatever it is that you enjoy doing without getting in the way of the people doing the work or breaking any laws..PERIOD. For some people that means photographing the trains while others simply enjoy watching the action and reading about railroads. One thing I've learned over the years...regardless of what it is you do..someone will disapprove... another thing I've learned..it doesn't matter...As for respect..it is always nice to have that...and I don't think respect requires a track record. It can simply be acknowlegement of another's interest or value system. For example...one can have respect for certain professions without knowing anything about the track record fo the individuals who practice those professions...same goes for anything else.
schlimm It is hard to imagine that very many will railfans engage in behaviors that disturb others or are illegal.
henry6Right or wrong, it is an old farts perogerative.
BucyrusI agree that the column is Fred Frailey’s opinion, and he has a perfect right to it. Let me offer my opinion. I think this needs to be broken down because Fred’s seven points are somewhat like apples and oranges in that some are illegal, and some are merely personal choices that Fred disapproves of. And furthermore, while some of the seven points are based on forum behavior as well as field behavior, some of them are based only on field behavior. Fred is talking about railfans, but it is not clear how many or which ones. He clearly is referring to all railfan photographers, including himself when he says: “Do you wonder why railroaders don’t have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lens? I’ll tell you why: We haven’t earned it.” Do non-railroaders have to earn the respect of railroaders? I don’t require anybody to earn my respect. I give it out for free, and then withdraw it only if necessary. Fred’s seven ways to become a better railfan: 1) Get off your butt: I disagree that this has anything to do with how good of a railfan you are. Some railfans spend their whole life researching railroading in the 1800s. Why would they be better fans if they devoted some of their time to experiencing current day “real thing” railroading, as Fred asserts? Is railroading in the 1800’s not the real thing? Would a railfan who spends all his or her time watching current era trains be “better” if he or she spent a little time researching railroading in the 1800s? 2) Be better informed: I disagree that this necessarily makes one a better railfan. One could argue that the innocent spontaneity of simply hanging around the railroad to see what shows up is more enjoyable than making a big obsessive effort to learn the lineup of what it coming. It is a similar to the assertion that looking at trains through the camera lens detracts from the full sensation of the train experience. 3) Shut up: This seems to reveal something about the Kalmbach culture, how they view this forum, their collective political ideology, how they impose that ideology on this forum and on Trains magazine, and how they view the role of this forum compared to the roll of Trains magazine. I’m not sure which forums Mr. Frailey is referring to with his example of engaging in “vicious so’s-your-mama ideological warfare,” but fortunately we have never had that happen here. It has come close, however, with threads about waving and labor/management issues. 4) Leave your camera at home: I disagree that this has anything to do with how good of a railfan you are. I know people who take lots of photographs, and have become conflicted over whether it is really worthwhile. They may wonder what the ultimate point is in having a big collection of images among their worldly possessions. Compulsively taking photographs can become like an addiction, and some people quit in order to alleviate the burden. And some of these quitters can become like ex-smokers who lecture and condescend to those who still smoke. I would not presume to lecture a photographer about what he or she is missing by using a camera to capture an experience. 5) Use common sense online: I do indeed believe than any railfan would be better if they did not do things that are illegal or damaging to others. 6) Accept that you don’t know everything: Very few people believe that they know everything, and it may or may not be a problem for the ones that do. Mr. Frailey needs to explain how this leads to good reputations getting recklessly shredded, as he asserts. 7) Never become part of the action: I agree with this and my response is a repeat of that for item #5.
I will toss in my own opinion on one question of yours. Does respect have to be earned? I think the answer is "always". To be well respected for something implies that a positive track record exists and is known. The problem with railfan-railroader relations is that railroaders have the impression that railfans are merely geeks behind a shutter. Whether that is correct or not, is immaterial. That's the current state of things. Railroaders don't generally respect railfans. If you are OK with that, then nothing needs to be done. If you want the respect of the railroader, then it has to be demonstrated to them.
In labor towards objectivity, I conceed that Fred has been a railfan longer than I, and during that time has climbed to an esteemed level within rail journalism as well as the hobby itself, and therefore his opinion of what constitutes a "better" railfan is more qualified than mine.
And, I tend to respect informed opinion more so than uninformed opinion, so My hat is off to him in that regard.
And perhaps we can interpret his recommendations that we try to become more knowledgeable, and keep our uninformed opinions to ourselves during the learning process UNTIL such time as we can make informed assessments....as being his way of saying exactly that...that informed opinion is of greatest value, and we can never start too early building our own?
Ah well, now we go next into that "Roundhouse" issue
Mebbe so. Certainly, in my assessment, opinion pieces deserve a response of some kind, but they do invite responses of every conceivable kind. That goes from devout affirmation to derisive dismissal.
Trouble is, neither one is given much credence from those whose responses are honestly more measured. Those people know that a temperate response with some depth of thought will invite further dialog. And in that respect, I think you fellas have done quite well.
For me, a better message in the article might boil down to, "Try this...you may like it!" Or, maybe, "Have you considered doing this or that?" But I would have to agree that all-inclusive and absolutist language tends to get a good chunk of the readership's backs up because they feel they're being judged in terms they don't support or subscribe to. We have these arguments in the hobby forums all the time...my modeling is better than your modeling because I use more raw materials and put them together after measuring and cutting, whereas you buy most of your stuff ready-made. Tsk tsk!! The message is that my enjoyment is a purer form than your mere enjoyment. Piffle! We're to take the speaker's word for it?
Should someone with a $50 point-and-shoot camera be more a purist than the guy with a $2000 DSLR and a fixed focus telephoto worth $7000? And neither is worth more than condescension from the even greater purist who only uses his Mark I eyeball when he watches trains? Puhleese!
henry6 I don't hold it against anybody who does any one of the above. Or all of the above. But I am against any one who does any one of the above and shows no respect for those who pursue any of the other pursuits and take it as a personal affront to his pursuit.
I don't hold it against anybody who does any one of the above. Or all of the above. But I am against any one who does any one of the above and shows no respect for those who pursue any of the other pursuits and take it as a personal affront to his pursuit.
Such as admonishing selected groups of the fellowship for failing to behave in ways that industry insiders might find warm-n-fuzzy?
Know what I think? I think that over the past several years there has been far too little discussion here about magazine content.
henry6 Its too bad so many have taken affront with what Frailey had to say. At least, maybe, he got some to think about what they and/or fellow fans do or not do and to talk about it...it being "being a railfan". Yes, his view is opinion, and yes I pretty much understand and agree with most of what he said. Even still, if we all come away with the understanding that being a railfan can be practiced in so many different ways and, more important, to recognize and respect those different practices.
Its too bad so many have taken affront with what Frailey had to say. At least, maybe, he got some to think about what they and/or fellow fans do or not do and to talk about it...it being "being a railfan". Yes, his view is opinion, and yes I pretty much understand and agree with most of what he said. Even still, if we all come away with the understanding that being a railfan can be practiced in so many different ways and, more important, to recognize and respect those different practices.
I agree with you in the sense of building tolerance of others practices of railfanning. This whole issue of bashing someone over the beak just because they do their railfanning in 'x' method vs Harry Soandso's method is kind of boring to me.
As for this puppy, I take my camera when I go railfanning. I use the camera a lot. I am attentive to light/shadow/birds/smells---standing by a field of sweet williams and hyacinths in full bloom while one of CP's red GP9's go barrelling by Beachville is my idea of fun times---sounds/people as they all fascinate me. Just because I have a camera in my hand should not mean that I am a dullard and that, therefore, I am not "in the moment"
Convicted One Ahh, I see, so what you're REALLY saying is "unfortunately, not everyone agrees" (with your and Fred's POV)
Ahh, I see, so what you're REALLY saying is "unfortunately, not everyone agrees" (with your and Fred's POV)
I really don't give a (instert explitive of choice here) what anybody thinks here...don't put words in my mouth or read anything into what I said more than the words spoken. The fact is that many who have disagreed with Fred (and me to an extent) have had real emotional negative reactions feeling they've been personally attacked. And that's not true of me (and I don't think of Fred, either, but you better ask him). Rather than defend themselves they have lashed out at the message and the messenger(s). Some of it is from a perspective of age, of what was going on in the hobby and the world when we got involved as opposed to today. I think there is more, and has been more, to the railroad hobby than just taking pictures. I also think there is more to it than scale modeling and replication; more than colllecting and assembling toy trains; more than reading history books or collecting memorabalia; more than watchng slide shows, eating donuts and drinking coffee, and going home at the end of a show; more than preserving equipment and buildings; more than just riding trains or sitting and watching them go by. The rail hobby is all of the above and much, much more than I have noted. I don't hold it against anybody who does any one of the above. Or all of the above. But I am against any one who does any one of the above and shows no respect for those who pursue any of the other pursuits and take it as a personal affront to his pursuit.
Just to clarify:
I listed Fred’s seven bullet points in bold text. They are Fred’s words. What follows each of them is my response. In Fred’s actual column, he follows the bold headings with his own thorough explanation of what he means by each heading. Perhaps some have not actually seen the column, and that might lead to conjecture about what his bold bullet points mean. If you read his full elaboration of each point, there is no question about what he means.
BucyrusI agree that the column is Fred Frailey’s opinion, and he has a perfect right to it. Let me offer my opinion. 2) Be better informed: I disagree that this necessarily makes one a better railfan. One could argue that the innocent spontaneity of simply hanging around the railroad to see what shows up is more enjoyable than making a big obsessive effort to learn the lineup of what it coming. It is a similar to the assertion that looking at trains through the camera lens detracts from the full sensation of the train experience.
I think what Fred was suggesting is that by only mindlessly watching trains go by you are missing out on greater enjoyment. Don't you ever have a bit of curiosity as to where that dimensional load was going, or what is in the tank car, or why there are three units pulling that short train, or how steep that grade is. If one has a question, try to find the answer and enjoy the satisfaction of being better informed.
And another side to this same issue is by being better informed you won't seem as ignorant to the professional railroaders, thus confirming our poor reputation. As an example of ignorance, one fan stated "that locomotive must be really powerful because it is numbered way up in the 9000s". It's an extreme example, perhaps, but similar naivete and ignorance when talking to railroaders just makes them shake their head in disbelief.
Overall I think Fred had some good ideas, even if they need not be taken absolutely literally. In essence he is suggesting we broaden and develop our interests in the hobby, instead of focusing on one narrow aspect. And of course, reminding us to stay safe and courteous.
John
henry6 "Unfortunate" because it seems to foster vehement and retailiatory statements from those who don't agree or understand what he was saying.. ////{SNIP!!} \\\ Right or wrong, it is an old farts perogerative.
"Unfortunate" because it seems to foster vehement and retailiatory statements from those who don't agree or understand what he was saying.. ////{SNIP!!} \\\ Right or wrong, it is an old farts perogerative.
fair enough I suppose. do you consider those comments to be 'vehement' simply because they contrast against your views? It's probably not very realistic to expect everyone to agree with you, on ANY one particular subject...which is one of the the things that taints Fred's "Do the rest of us a favor" comment...it's faulty logic for him to assume that all other railfans support his particular disdain(s)
As far as suggesting to the shutterbug addicts that they may have narrowed their potential enjoyment of the hobby, and that they should consider broadening their interests (by leaving the camera at home) I fully agree with him there.
Zug's 8th way to become a better railfan:
Work for a railroad. Then you will gain a whole new appreciation of the industry. The few times when I actually go out foaming, I take my camera. If I just want to sit there and watch trains pass, I'll go to work where they pay me to do that.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
mmmm--interesting stuff this---
I thought that OPINION pieces were just that--OPINION pieces.
Ergo---not written as a directive from some party apparatchik.
OPINION pieces generate other OPINIONS and, from that then, generate debate. If my opinion is different from someone else's why should this then generate so much heat?
Just saying---------
"Unfortunate" because it seems to foster vehement and retailiatory statements from those who don't agree or understand what he was saying.
Alright, let me say it: I am an old fart. So is Fred. He and I, and others of course, came up in a non technical, non digital, non instant communicative world where soul satifying grataification comes at the click of a button and all ills go away with the popping of a pill; where and when walking, reading, researching, discussing (d i s c u s s i n g not argueing or taking quick offense), relaxing, and learning about, being curious about, and trying to understand the world around one was more the norm than pigeon holing everything and then selectively pick and blindly follow that one interest one way at total expense of all other things and people. Railroading (as a fan) led me into an understanding of georgraphy, commerce, and history, an interest in photography and writing and an opening of other worlds I didn't know existed, and meeting hundreds of people with the same and diverse interests as me Sometime we old farts don't think the younger generation has taken the time to open the available vistas and say something about it. Right or wrong, it is an old farts perogerative.
henry6 Its too bad so many have taken affront with what Frailey had to say. .
Its too bad so many have taken affront with what Frailey had to say. .
I suspect that he's probably delighted that one of his columns managed to raise so much interest. That is, afterall, what they are paid to do, write story's that catch the reader's attention.
henry6 Unfortunately Convicted One, I am one who agrees very much with what Fred said.
Unfortunately Convicted One, I am one who agrees very much with what Fred said.
Why is it at all "unfortunate" that you agree with Fred? Seems as though that is your entitlement.
I still wonder what you were 'convicted' of, but that is another story. I think Fred got it right. I did the ex-SP 4449 trip over the Rocky Mountains, in "NYC 3" last year. I didn't take "picture-#1" with my Nikon D50, or my film camera. I left my videocams at home. I was having too much fun! Living in the area, I, kind'a, was the 'tour guide' for my fellow PV travelers. Surprisingly, the women were the ones looking out the windows and marveling at the scenery. The men were wondering where lunch was! I was a "Prince" that day! I brought some books with me, about the line over Marias Pass, and shared them with all. They were avidly perused! It was a great trip, especially when we passed thru Essex, MT. There must have been over 200 people waving/greeting us at the Isaac Walton Inn! Sorry! No pix! I do think it was a better trip for not being seen thru the viewfinder alone. On the 4449's WB return, I was on the ground and got a few pix, but my new Mustang GT couldn't keep up with it west of Shelby! Of course, there were a lot of very loonie 'chasers' on the road to Cut Bank, so I turned for home.
Hays
I agree that the column is Fred Frailey’s opinion, and he has a perfect right to it. Let me offer my opinion.
I think this needs to be broken down because Fred’s seven points are somewhat like apples and oranges in that some are illegal, and some are merely personal choices that Fred disapproves of. And furthermore, while some of the seven points are based on forum behavior as well as field behavior, some of them are based only on field behavior.
Fred is talking about railfans, but it is not clear how many or which ones. He clearly is referring to all railfan photographers, including himself when he says: “Do you wonder why railroaders don’t have more respect for those of us on the other side of the camera lens? I’ll tell you why: We haven’t earned it.”
Do non-railroaders have to earn the respect of railroaders? I don’t require anybody to earn my respect. I give it out for free, and then withdraw it only if necessary.
Fred’s seven ways to become a better railfan:
1) Get off your butt: I disagree that this has anything to do with how good of a railfan you are. Some railfans spend their whole life researching railroading in the 1800s. Why would they be better fans if they devoted some of their time to experiencing current day “real thing” railroading, as Fred asserts? Is railroading in the 1800’s not the real thing? Would a railfan who spends all his or her time watching current era trains be “better” if he or she spent a little time researching railroading in the 1800s?
2) Be better informed: I disagree that this necessarily makes one a better railfan. One could argue that the innocent spontaneity of simply hanging around the railroad to see what shows up is more enjoyable than making a big obsessive effort to learn the lineup of what it coming. It is a similar to the assertion that looking at trains through the camera lens detracts from the full sensation of the train experience.
3) Shut up: This seems to reveal something about the Kalmbach culture, how they view this forum, their collective political ideology, how they impose that ideology on this forum and on Trains magazine, and how they view the role of this forum compared to the roll of Trains magazine. I’m not sure which forums Mr. Frailey is referring to with his example of engaging in “vicious so’s-your-mama ideological warfare,” but fortunately we have never had that happen here. It has come close, however, with threads about waving and labor/management issues.
4) Leave your camera at home: I disagree that this has anything to do with how good of a railfan you are. I know people who take lots of photographs, and have become conflicted over whether it is really worthwhile. They may wonder what the ultimate point is in having a big collection of images among their worldly possessions. Compulsively taking photographs can become like an addiction, and some people quit in order to alleviate the burden. And some of these quitters can become like ex-smokers who lecture and condescend to those who still smoke. I would not presume to lecture a photographer about what he or she is missing by using a camera to capture an experience.
5) Use common sense online: I do indeed believe than any railfan would be better if they did not do things that are illegal or damaging to others.
6) Accept that you don’t know everything: Very few people believe that they know everything, and it may or may not be a problem for the ones that do. Mr. Frailey needs to explain how this leads to good reputations getting recklessly shredded, as he asserts.
7) Never become part of the action: I agree with this and my response is a repeat of that for item #5.
SSSSHHHHHHH--------Sumbunall people----think Sumbunall
Think "Some But Not All"----I did not think I was being intolerant of what he said so much as pointed out that taking a certain viewpoint could get stretched into some awful dang weird positions---hence the need for a new kind of chill pill called "SUMBUNALL"=some but not all----
Sheeesh what a bunch of curmudgeons-------
When in the world did we become so intolerant of other's opinions?
Fred doesn't need to apologize for anything. It's everyone who jumped on his case that need to apologize for being uncivilized.
I suspect the ones that reacted most strongly are the ones who don't like the twinge of guilt they felt when they read it. Can't imagine anything else that would motivate such vitriol.
Unfortunately Convicted One, I am one who agrees very much with what Fred said. My dealings with many railfans, and I'll admit or point out that it is here in the east, reflects with the why he can say what he does. Further I hate to point at age being a factor, but it is, too. The younger ones are the one's who appear to define railfaning as what is captured through a lens. Period. Point blank. Nothing else. The older, and those who grow older, will branch out into history, operations, replicate modeling, and collecting. And some who stay with the camera sometimes even learn photography enough so as to get away from the zillion milimeter zoom head on shot or the wedgie which goes from one side of the frame to the next (yeah, I said wedgie) or the same spot shot over and over with just the number or color of the locomotive being different each time. Worst of all is the attitude of indignation by them when something else is suggested.
oltmanndSo, I'll retract the "suggest" and even the "recommend". He didn't even go that far. He just stated a belief that you are free to buy into or ignore.
You are being FAR too charitable in your rush to appologize for his overt statements. let's not forget that our current discussion has now evolved into a rebuttal of your statement that he was "taking a beating for stuff he didn't say or even imply "
When he chose to assert in the first person that we should "do the rest of us a favor" he was in fact implying that his POV was representative of the majority (and by definition against those railfans who do NOT see the world "according to Fred")
It was a moderately arrogant summation at best, framing those who might not agree with him as being the odd man out.
LOL, he must be living in a cocoon
Convicted OneWell, actually he did opine in absolute terms...
"I believe that to be a better citizen, a person should read more and watch TV news less." This doesn't mean that you are wrong or that I am judging you if you only watch Fox News and never read a paper, does it?
BucyrusHe said you would be BETTER if you get off your butt, be better informed, shut up, leave your camera at home, use common sense, and accept that you don’t know everything. I don’t see how that is anything like simply offering a friendly suggestion to try something new.
oltmanndWow. Poor Fred is taking a beating for stuff he didn't say or even imply. His whole point was that for many (not all) railfans, the hobby starts and ends with photography and that there can be more to railfanning and you might even find it makes the experience more enjoyable! That's it! Crucifying Fred for making a suggestion, that you are free to act on or leave alone, is evil.
Crucifying Fred for making a suggestion, that you are free to act on or leave alone, is evil.
Well, actually he did opine in absolute terms when he stated that NO one was interested in our political opinions and thne went into a rather smug representation that hewas speaking on behalf of all railfans with his comment of "do the rest of us a favor and keep it to yourself" which I thought was pure arrogance on his part. Seldom is it wise to make absolute assessments such as this.
And, his willingness to speak on absolute terms on those areas were not distinguished as seperate from the rest of his suggestions, so one might assume that his intended posture (speaking to ALL on behalf of ALL) remained the same.
he makes some good points though and he also mentioned about getting chewed out himself by an engineer once for standing too close. I don't see Fred's comments as out of line...he's right about the camera (I don't take pictures but still enjoy the hobby) and he's probably right in that as a group we haven't earned the respect of the folks who work on the railroad...I can see that.
I agree with all of them but only partially to the "Leave your camera at home" mentality. This is because I have the mindset of a collector. And as such, I feel like I need to photograph any and every locomotive I haven't yet shot and thus fill out my photo roster nicely. But amidst my mounds of similar photos of different locomotives, I hand pick unique and interesting ones to actually show off and post on forums, with the rest staying on rrpicturearchives.net or one of my CDs.
I also thought I'd add to the "get off your butt" tip. I agree with this completely, but I just don't have the money to travel to distant mainlines and yards. As it stands, I'm pretty much stuck with Altoona, WI and the whole 4 trains it sees every night. A difficult line to fan, but better than nothing. Thankfully my parents understand and let me make such night runs.
Your friendly neighborhood CNW fan.
He said you would be BETTER if you get off your butt, be better informed, shut up, leave your camera at home, use common sense, and accept that you don’t know everything.
I don’t see how that is anything like simply offering a friendly suggestion to try something new.
oltmanndWow. Poor Fred is taking a beating for stuff he didn't say or even imply. His whole point was that for many (not all) railfans, the hobby starts and ends with photography and that there can be more to railfanning and you might even find it makes the experience more enjoyable! That's it! An analogy. Your favorite pizza might be pepperoni. Some one suggests you try ham and pineapple. You have three choices. Try it - you may like it! Don't try it - pepperoni is good enough for you forever. Don't try it and berate the person who suggested it. Crucifying Fred for making a suggestion, that you are free to act on or leave alone, is evil.
An analogy. Your favorite pizza might be pepperoni. Some one suggests you try ham and pineapple. You have three choices.
Try it - you may like it!
Don't try it - pepperoni is good enough for you forever.
Don't try it and berate the person who suggested it.
Hmmm.. ham and pineapple..must give that a try.
Convicted Onetree68 I have to disagree with the whole "don't bring your camera" thing. By the time the train gets to me, I've usually put the camera down. Not only do I get to enjoy the sights and sounds first hand, but I've got a picture to "take me back" to that moment. (Just guessing) Since his general "thrust" this month seems aimed at fostering better relations with his "inside the industry" chums, let's look at his comment from that aspect. Where I work, if some stranger showed up at my jobsite, set up some fairly sophisticated camera gear, and started snapping away, I'd be put on the defensive. I'd be forced to assume that some lawyer was fishing for "slip and fall" support for a client, or some other liability...or that perhaps my own employer had hired a snooping service. Either way the presence constitutes a potential nuisance that interferes with the quiet, productivity conducive environment that I'd prefer to maintain whenever possible. So, I can understand Fred's suggestion on that basis. Beyond that and in particular reference to the comments I made earlier, same guy goes out and sets up the same sophisticated equipment at the end of some bridge, waits 40 minutes for a freight toshow up...then spends 3 minutes snapping pictures,....and then waits 2 more hours for the next freight, snapping six more, and then goes home.....he's spent half a day, and for what? a dozen pictures that are uncannily similar to the dozen he shot at the same location the weekend before,...and the weekend before that... and the weekend before that...etc? Sure, I guess you can argue that each opportunity presented unique lighting challenges for him to apply his skill and knowledgebase to overcome, but then the guy is more a camera buff ...than railfan. Not that there is anything wrong with that, per se, but I just think Fred is warning us not to fall into that rut.
tree68 I have to disagree with the whole "don't bring your camera" thing. By the time the train gets to me, I've usually put the camera down. Not only do I get to enjoy the sights and sounds first hand, but I've got a picture to "take me back" to that moment.
I have to disagree with the whole "don't bring your camera" thing.
By the time the train gets to me, I've usually put the camera down. Not only do I get to enjoy the sights and sounds first hand, but I've got a picture to "take me back" to that moment.
(Just guessing) Since his general "thrust" this month seems aimed at fostering better relations with his "inside the industry" chums, let's look at his comment from that aspect.
Where I work, if some stranger showed up at my jobsite, set up some fairly sophisticated camera gear, and started snapping away, I'd be put on the defensive. I'd be forced to assume that some lawyer was fishing for "slip and fall" support for a client, or some other liability...or that perhaps my own employer had hired a snooping service. Either way the presence constitutes a potential nuisance that interferes with the quiet, productivity conducive environment that I'd prefer to maintain whenever possible. So, I can understand Fred's suggestion on that basis.
Beyond that and in particular reference to the comments I made earlier, same guy goes out and sets up the same sophisticated equipment at the end of some bridge, waits 40 minutes for a freight toshow up...then spends 3 minutes snapping pictures,....and then waits 2 more hours for the next freight, snapping six more, and then goes home.....he's spent half a day, and for what? a dozen pictures that are uncannily similar to the dozen he shot at the same location the weekend before,...and the weekend before that... and the weekend before that...etc? Sure, I guess you can argue that each opportunity presented unique lighting challenges for him to apply his skill and knowledgebase to overcome, but then the guy is more a camera buff ...than railfan. Not that there is anything wrong with that, per se, but I just think Fred is warning us not to fall into that rut.
For those who agree with Frailey's idea of riding trains as part of being a railfan, join RIDEWITHMEHENRY...that's me...and my friends Thur Feb 25 for an MNRR-NJT trip from Port Jervis, NY to Gladstone, NJ and return. To be upfront, I get my expenses paid (fares, gas, food) split amongs all, you get a planned and escorted trip and comeraderie of like thinking railfans. Be with us from the start or join us enroute. Camera's of course (but not overencombering getting in other's way), railroad radios are no nos. I have other such trips for both fans and non fans....
oltmanndThe only thing I have to add here is that I'd much rather hire a knowledgeable railfan to come to work in my office than a run of the mill college grad. Anybody can have a good business skill set, but it's the context that's hard to come by. A knowledgeable railfan has a leg up on everybody else - and he will tend to be more motivated and have his head in the game more often.
I feel the same way... it is always a pleasure to work with people who have an interest in what they do.
henry6I don't think the discussion is aimed at dictating how, but suggesting other ways.
I don’t perceive that Mr. Frailey is just offering suggestions for alternate railfan activity. In his column, he offered seven ways to be a better railfan, so he clearly signaled that he feels his suggestions are superior to what they would replace. And he definitely implies that all railfans are guilty of some of his examples of unapproved behavior. So he purports to make us into better railfans in order to make railroad managers and operating men like us better. Mr. Frailey, give me a break.
henry6Tree, the point is that those railfans who make asses of themselves make asses of the rest of us. So anything that can be said or done to prevent such behavior has got to help the rest of us normal railfans.
Take a look at the voting on the Trackside "competitions." The votes far outnumber the comments. Since it's not real easy to vote more than once, that means that some number of fans quietly voiced their opinions. They're just sitting back and enjoying the trains.
Tree, the point is that those railfans who make asses of themselves make asses of the rest of us. So anything that can be said or done to prevent such behavior has got to help the rest of us normal railfans.
And John, I like your "8th way" up to a point. What has to be understood by all is that each of us, as a railfan, has a different reason for becoming a fan, a different georgraphy, different railroad, different type of train or locomotive, in otherwords, there are as more reasons and interests than there are railfans. And often we weave in and out of different angles and interests. I endorse and applaud virtually every historic endeavor be it museum, static dispalys, or operations, preservation, or whatever. But like taking pictures, just sitting watching, modeling, collecting memorabelia, collecting libraries, not everyone is cut out to be part of museum or historic preservation. I have been on the picture taking binge; collected all kinds of stuff (right now, into railroad fiction novels and stories); I have operated musuems and ran fan trips, I have always been enamored with operations, having listened to dispatchers at work when I was kid and seeing how it all worked out over the timetable day (that's probably why today I prefer finding my way to a commuter operation and ride all day). But don't put hisorica preservation or a musuem aside because all of a sudden one gets vaccinated with the needle of a certain locomotive or piece of equipment or station or right of way,and, voila! one's immersed and hooked. I guess what I am trying to say here is that there are no absolutes in railfanning: no one interest beyond rails and wheels can define us nor should or should be expected to. But one other thing has to be included universally, and that is respect of our hosts (the railroads and railroaders) and respect for each other's choice of pursuit.
Let me wade in with a few thoughts.
First of all Fred should have included an 8th way. Namely, get involved with a museum operation. They are usually crying for more volunteers, and getting your hands dirty working on the real thing is a great way to gain a deeper understanding of what happens when you are watching trackside. Sometimes you might be working alongside a retired railroader, and it's incredible the wealth of information, instruction, and stories that can be available. Even the other amateurs will bring you a new level of sophistication.
By getting your hands dirty I mean more than only wanting to play engineer. That's often best done with a model railway where nobody gets hurt. Learn how track is built and maintained, or how a heavyweight coach is constructed. You still won't know much compared with the professionals, but it should provide a base to make any conversation or questions more intelligent (and less annoying).
4. Leave your camera at home, -our interests in the hobby should be deeper than our slide collection
There has been a lot of discussion on this one, and I would certainly disagree with any literal interpretation. As I look through my slides taken over the last 40 years, some of them trigger long buried memories of events or people I have seen or met. Spending an afternoon watching trains go by, or taking a picture of every train at the same place - is there really much difference? Yes, some folks essentially take the same picture over and over, only the locomotive number changes, but others hunt up different angles, seek out new locations, and otherwise try to be creative.
On the other hand, there are times when experiencing the moment is best done without the distraction of a camera. Listening to CP's Hudson, 2816, barking upgrade in Kicking Horse Pass, and then the whistle echoing off the mountains as she approached the grade crossing half a mile away was awesome. Standing on the front vestibule of a commuter coach next to a GP9 listening and feeling the 567 engine throbbing through the Mount Royal tunnel in Montreal is another memory. In a different style, I had the pleasure of watching an Algoma Central crew switching mostly 40 foot boxcars using hand signals in a throwback to an earlier era. They did have radios, and occasionally used it, but most of the time found hand signals more effective. Often there is the opportunity to capture a few images at the same time.
Again, looking at some of the older pictures I now notice things that my early naive self had overlooked at the time. Perhaps surprisingly, having my eyes opened about past events also makes me more aware of what is happening now when I am out watching and/or photographing trains.
Some years ago Ben Bachman wrote a pretty interesting and funny piece about the various types of railfans, and what/ how they like to do that:
On watching trains Trains, May 1979 page 28 action on and under the bridge at East Deerfield ( B&M, "BACHMAN, BEN", RAILFANNING, TRN )
I believe that's the one where he compared us to an acquaintance who was 'obsessed' with and an expert on a particular seabird - Leach's Storm Petrel, if I recall correctly - which spends most of its life far out at sea, beyond any reasonable hope of observation. Next to that, we look pretty normal - but he's the one whose hobby is considered socially acceptable, while we're usually viewed as the oddballs. Maybe something out of kilter here ?
- Paul North.
Convicted OneIf you act foolishly, or act arrogant like you have a right to be there, heh, you'll probably be seeing a white blazer before too long, and trust me...the guy inside'll want to talk to you!!
[rant]
I dug that issue out again (having accidentally sent it to the "stacks" already).
The highlighted bullet point he makes in his second paragraph kind of chafes.
"Do you wonder why railroaders don't have more respect for us? We haven't earned it."
Bull hockey.
Railfans "log" thousands of hours of trainwatching every year that the railroaders apparently aren't even aware of. From sitting patiently at a crossing (I know, you won't wave), to eating at establishments with a favorable view of the tracks, to frequenting hotels that cater to railfans, to spending time at established watching spots (like Rochelle, Jessup, Folkston, etc), to checking out distant webcams, we quietly watch the objects we admire, and the people who operate them.
We live by Fred's seven ways to become a better railfan, but we don't get credit for that. Instead we get cast in the mold of the one clown who decides to set up his tripod in the middle of the tracks, hoping for that great oncoming-train shot.
This forum generally lives by his suggestions as well. Sure, speculation runs rampant when something like the derailment on Sand Patch happens, but eventually the truth comes out and most of us learn something. "Stupid" questions get answered, even if we've answered them before.
Yes there are railfans who don't have a clue, or can't seem to get it. The same is true with just about everything. I cringe every time a reporter misstates something about a fire.
So, give the average railfan some credit. You haven't noticed him (or her) because you've never had the opportunity to do so. They've just been quietly watching.
[/rant]
well, as a matter of pure candor, I have gotten into a number of good conversations with rails out in the field, track guys, signal guys, engineers waiting on meets, and I think that it's mostly a matter of how you present yourself. If you're decent, personable, act a little knowledgable about the line they are on, and ACT LIKE YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR OWN SAFETY most of them are happy to share a few words.
If you act foolishly, or act arrogant like you have a right to be there, heh, you'll probably be seeing a white blazer before too long, and trust me...the guy inside'll want to talk to you!!
Convicted OneBucyrus . Frankly, I don’t believe his antidote about his friend who works for a Class-I railroad in a mid-level management position having been driven off forums because there are too many stupid people there. the thought that his anecdote might have been a construct fashioned to shape the herd here, ...did cross my mind. ala "OHHH, so if we BEHAVE ourselves,.. then maybe we'll get a chance to talk to more COOL guys"...etc
Bucyrus . Frankly, I don’t believe his antidote about his friend who works for a Class-I railroad in a mid-level management position having been driven off forums because there are too many stupid people there.
. Frankly, I don’t believe his antidote about his friend who works for a Class-I railroad in a mid-level management position having been driven off forums because there are too many stupid people there.
the thought that his anecdote might have been a construct fashioned to shape the herd here, ...did cross my mind. ala "OHHH, so if we BEHAVE ourselves,.. then maybe we'll get a chance to talk to more COOL guys"...etc
At first I thought Bucyrus' malapropism was one of the funnier ones I've heard of late. On second glance, perhaps he really meant a substance to undo the poisonous railfans?
I don't think the discussion is aimed at dictating how, but suggesting other ways. Frailey's point I think was to suggest ways in which professional railroaders might be encouraged to take some railfans more seriously, i.e., in one case he suggested go out to look at railroads and trains without a camera. He wasn't dictating, he was suggesting. There are those who do define the railroad hobby being only an exercise in taking pictures without getting to know the railroad, the operations, the history, the business, or the people involved. Some apparently are wrapped so tight that this point in particular has caused quite a stir! Of course there are as many definitions of what a railfan is as there are individual railfans. And what they are interested in, why, and how they pursue the hobby is just as vague and varied. The only rules: do it safely, do it unobtrusively.
How about we adopt Outback Steakhouse's philosophy of "no rules"? If you enjoy it, then do it. I don't understand why some people feel the compulsion to dictate to everyone else how their HOBBY should be done. It's all about what makes you happy, folks.
I find the tone of the whole column to be rather preachy. Mr. Frailey stereotypes railfans and railroaders by suggesting that the latter all regard the former as lazy, uninformed, know-it-alls. Frankly, I don’t believe his antidote about his friend who works for a Class-I railroad in a mid-level management position having been driven off forums because there are too many stupid people there.
henry6I am sure the concept "leave your camera at home" is metaphoric, encouraging a mind set if not really leaving the camera home. In other words, don't just think "pictures" when you go railfaning but also think seeing, learning, enjoying, and, yes, the cameraderie of fellow fans. There is a lot more to railfaning than how many frames per minute you can take or how many pixels per print. Enjoy the whole scene through your eye and mind at the moment and savor forever.
I am sure the concept "leave your camera at home" is metaphoric, encouraging a mind set if not really leaving the camera home. In other words, don't just think "pictures" when you go railfaning but also think seeing, learning, enjoying, and, yes, the cameraderie of fellow fans. There is a lot more to railfaning than how many frames per minute you can take or how many pixels per print. Enjoy the whole scene through your eye and mind at the moment and savor forever.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Convicted OneWhere I work, if some stranger showed up at my jobsite, set up some fairly sophisticated camera gear, and started snapping away, I'd be put on the defensive.
As I've mentioned before - one place I "work," it's very common to have someone show up taking pictures and videos, and not just from the news media. In fact, odds are I'm going to ask them for a copy, especially if it's a major event.
That would be firefighting.
We take pride in what we've accomplished, and if something goes wrong, we're all over those pictures and videos to figure out what happened and how we can prevent it.
In other words, we embrace it.
We know it's a two-edged sword. The video that ends up on YouTube might be a glowing tribute to our trade, or might show us doing something we wish wouldn't see the light of day.
To complicate things for the photographer, we might declare a previously "public" area as out-of-bounds for safety reasons.
Beyond that and in particular reference to the comments I made earlier, same guy goes out and sets up the same sophisticated equipment at the end of some bridge, waits 40 minutes for a freight toshow up...then spends 3 minutes snapping pictures,....and then waits 2 more hours for the next freight, snapping six more, and then goes home.....he's spent half a day, and for what? a dozen pictures that are uncannily similar to the dozen he shot at the same location the weekend before,...and the weekend before that... and the weekend before that...etc?
On the other hand, he might have as a goal getting pictures of as many different locomotives as possible. What seems like a waste of time to you has been very productive for him.
Some people keep track car or locomotive information. Instead of taking pictures, they've got a notebook in their hand and they're busily taking notes on the passing train. It's what they do and how they enjoy the hobby.
In both cases, just standing trackside, watching trains go by would be a tremendous waste of time.
henry6I am sure the concept "leave your camera at home" is metaphoric, encouraging a mind set if not really leaving the camera home. In other words, don't just think "pictures" when you go railfaning but also think seeing, learning, enjoying, and, yes, the cameraderie of fellow fans.
Yeah well I did get a few people jump on me over the fact that I had a camera--"Why didn't you leave it at home?" And they meant it, literally.
henry6 There is a lot more to railfaning than how many frames per minute you can take or how many pixels per print. Enjoy the whole scene through your eye and mind at the moment and savor forever.
OK. When you are "with the moment" are you standing there talking to your railfan brother about what you and your wife are having tomorrow at so and so's place? I'd say no. Yet some other people would say yes. Primary reason? The camera is not involved. That is a strange kind of In The Moment. As long as the camera is not there you are in the moment. You can do everything else--be talking to one another while the train you were there for goes by but you were In The Moment while doing so.
I can be just as In The Moment as the next guy. Just because I have a camera and I use the dang thing--hey, I catch my memories on film as well as in my heart/brain--does not mean that, therefore I am NOT in the moment.
BTW---just to flummox the thing. I know someone who has short term memory issues. This fellow loves his trains. The way he does this is by photography. Last winter his family went to Hawaii. He has some neat shots of several trains you would not find here. The dangest thing about all this is that he was consistantly poked at because he used a camera and was therefore not really paying attention to what he was "Really Seeing".
We need to understand where each of us comes from and how each of us are truly "in the moment" in our own way---there really is no ONE way---
henry6Most important to being a railfan is the difference between when we of the older generation came along as opposed to today's railfan. We had our people. Dozens of them. The station agent, the local train crew, the interlocking operator, the trainmaster, the yardmaster, the crews on the many passenger trains, the crossing guard or watchman, the track foreman, so many more. We got to know them, they got to know us, they got us to know railroading like today's railfan can't.
blownout cylinderI often wondered why there is this idea that to really enjoy trains the camera should stay at home.
I agree. Sounds like one of those statements that sounds catchy, to be put in a list, like Letterman. Standing around with the camera up to your eye the whole time is one thing; having one around your neck, in a pocket or in a bag to be used p.r.n., is quite a different matter.
blhanel htgguy Plus, I have made some terrific friends this way. Usually it starts out as a virtual friendship, but in many cases it has developed into meeting people trackside to enjoy not only the railroad but companionship with those who share a common interest. Here is an example of that kind of event: http://www.morris.umn.edu/~vandenbm/journaljun_09.html You know Mike? I met him at the Izaak Walton Inn back last August- he rode out there on Amtrak. I certainly have to agree with you there, I've made some great friends!
htgguy Plus, I have made some terrific friends this way. Usually it starts out as a virtual friendship, but in many cases it has developed into meeting people trackside to enjoy not only the railroad but companionship with those who share a common interest. Here is an example of that kind of event: http://www.morris.umn.edu/~vandenbm/journaljun_09.html
Plus, I have made some terrific friends this way. Usually it starts out as a virtual friendship, but in many cases it has developed into meeting people trackside to enjoy not only the railroad but companionship with those who share a common interest. Here is an example of that kind of event:
http://www.morris.umn.edu/~vandenbm/journaljun_09.html
You know Mike? I met him at the Izaak Walton Inn back last August- he rode out there on Amtrak. I certainly have to agree with you there, I've made some great friends!
I know Mike-he is a great guy to railfan with.
http://look4trains.com/2010/01/brrr.html
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2026630&id=1306926001&l=aa0fc77b10#!/photo.php?pid=30436721&id=1306926001&fbid=1177551961426
For me, another example of the best part of railfanning-spending time with people who share your interest out along the tracks, and sharing what you have seen and photographed with them when they are not there.
Jim
Visit look4trains.com
I often wondered why there is this idea that to really enjoy trains the camera should stay at home. I've seen other people have camera in hand and really notice all kinds of stuff going on and not have to push the button. Camera was still there but they chose not to use it at that time.
This made me think, too, that one can be there without the camera and yet not really be there as well. Whether I have a camera or not has little bearing on whether I'm 'Really There". I can be someplace that is really cool and yet be thinking --"did I turn off the TV"---am I Really There? In the moment? Not particularly---- I just love it when one thinks a piece of technology and its usage is deemed not in the moment when it is in fact that person, themselves, that is having the issue. Whether the camera is there or not is totally besides the point.
A case of thinking other than either/or
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
And Jim, lets not forget the thousands of books available in libraries and owned by other railfans, plus the historical societies and model clubs devoted to trains. And just plain watching trains.
henry6But Tree, you went to a special even designed for photography.
I don't grab the camera every time I see a train, but if I'm actively watching, the camera is near.
Well, sadly, I don't have the January issue. However, from reading your roundup, an important thought occurs to me.
In my mind, one of the most important things I can do to be a "better" railfan is to share-share information, share photos, share knowledge, share experiences. Now I know that I am much more knowledgable of operations on my local lines (BNSF Staples and Brainerd Sub), as well as other areas that I have had the opportunity to visit such as Marias Pass, the Powder River Basin, Boone, CP River Sub, former DMIR trackage, and on and on, than I would have been without the generosity of those who are more familiar with the areas than I. That has made my railfanning more enjoyable, more efficient, and safer, since I know where I can safely get photos or views that I am looking for rather than just charging in without knowledge.
http://look4trains.com/2009/06/verndale-rail-2009.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/railtalk/3646323700/
So I would add the sharing of resources and information, and the resulting relationships developed along the tracks as something that makes you a better railfan. Just my opinion.
And if anyone is interested in an event like this, we will likely be doing it again, very possibly June 19, 2010.
But Tree, you went to a special even designed for photography. What Frailey, me, and others are talking about is going to the railroad to ride or to just watch without camera in hand. I know I've seen a lot more railroading, broader scenes, more action, with my eyes instead of peeking through view finders, focusing and f-stopping, the winding and winding again. No. Fan trips, railfan weekends, night photo ops, etc. are all for the fun of photography. So do it and don't feel bad. And while even these events might be enjoyed differently without the camera, certainly to learn the day to day duties, operatons, and people, of everyday railroading, leaving the camera home or in the bag even just once, might really be an eye opener!
When I was at Deshler last summer, the video camera went on a tripod. I usually caught a still or two of the trains as well, but now I've got both to refresh my memory. And had I not been taking pictures, I wouldn't have gotten the video of those five switchers DIT behind the head end power. Actually, I didn't get a still of that - we'd just gotten drenched and the Rebel was misbehaving.
The rest I can agree with.
The two easiest ways today to be a railfan appear to be either purchashing ready made models or toys or to take pictures. Now, don't come down on me on anything, I'm not opposed to either nor do I look down on either. I admire modelers, those who spend so much time with so much skill to recreate or outright create scenes and scenerios; I don't have the skill or the patience. Picture taking, I am not as patient with. I used to be a rabid photographer. But that was only part of bieng a fan then. Today, however, there seems to be a group who think you are only a railfan if you take pictures. Lots of pictures. Or is it lots of shot of the same picture. No, Fred Frailey is pretty much right, that picture taking is not all there is to railfanning: there is history, corporate history, anichdotal history, people, jobs, operations, those who like only one railroad or only one segment of one railroad, or railroads of one state or other geographical constraint. Actually I could probably go on to hundreds of things that could define a railfan's interest. Just look at the various subjects, posts, threads, etc. on the Kalmbach pages alone. But also sometimes it seems that fewer take the time to step back and look at the whole picture nor do they tolerate the other views.
I like the train riding part of Mr. Frailey's list. But I don't like his restriction of "ride Amtrak". Understood, probably the broad picture of railroading and railfans would capture Amtrak somewhere nearby. But it probably is not practical because there are too few trains in the system for a day trip for many and too expensive. With my Ride With Me Henry program several friends accompany me on trips riding commuter trains in the New York Metropolitan area after a three hour drive to the nearest MNRR or NJT station. But we will spend the whole day riding hundreds of miles and see thousands of real railroad occurances of equipment, crafts, skills, layouts, operations, and more in real railroad operations scenerios. It is fun, relaxing, informative, and very railfan. So many fans live within commuting zones but don't think about riding the trains. And there are more who, like us, live a modest driving distance from the trains. The important point is that such riding is more available than one would think.
Most important to being a railfan is the difference between when we of the older generation came along as opposed to today's railfan. We had our people. Dozens of them. The station agent, the local train crew, the interlocking operator, the trainmaster, the yardmaster, the crews on the many passenger trains, the crossing guard or watchman, the track foreman, so many more. We got to know them, they got to know us, they got us to know railroading like today's railfan can't. So while I am not overly impressed with the picture taking only contingent, I also understand, and point out to others, without the people we had, the only way they can be a railfan is by taking pictures! I just hope enough of them learn that picture taking isn't the only thing that can make them a railfan.
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