You would have at least the 6 months -to- 24 months wait before anything would happen for a conventional rail trail. The AB- docket proceedings along with the potential line abandonment map (SDM) would need adjustment under the statutes. Right now the federally required dockets are silent.
There are other things out there that could blow-up any potential rail trail.
dubch87 Non-profit organizations are reportedly in "ongoing negotiations" with Norfolk Southern to purchase the inactive Saluda Grade and convert it to a rail trail. The South Carolina state budget has $5 million earmarked to help with the purchase. https://www.tryondailybulletin.com/2022/07/21/nonprofits-working-to-turn-saluda-grade-into-rail-trail/ https://www.goupstate.com/story/news/local/2022/07/21/spartanburg-earmarks-target-west-main-corridor-saluda-grade-trail/10062038002/ https://conservingcarolina.org/saluda-grade/
Non-profit organizations are reportedly in "ongoing negotiations" with Norfolk Southern to purchase the inactive Saluda Grade and convert it to a rail trail. The South Carolina state budget has $5 million earmarked to help with the purchase.
https://www.tryondailybulletin.com/2022/07/21/nonprofits-working-to-turn-saluda-grade-into-rail-trail/
https://www.goupstate.com/story/news/local/2022/07/21/spartanburg-earmarks-target-west-main-corridor-saluda-grade-trail/10062038002/
https://conservingcarolina.org/saluda-grade/
It still seeems to have 'Fans' here... I have not bveen to Saluda in years, but it still seems to garner interest
The following is a C&P from the TRYON DAILY BULLETIN :
FTA:"...The potential Saluda Grade rail trail would run from Inman to Zirconia. Approximately 16 miles of the line are in South Carolina while about 15 miles are in North Carolina. The route includes dramatic scenery along the Blue Ridge Escarpment and passes through historic downtowns in Saluda, Tryon, Landrum, and Inman. When active from 1878 to 2001, the line was renowned as the steepest standard gauge mainline railroad ever built in the United States.
“As we’ve seen with the Prisma Health Swamp Rabbit Trail in Greenville County, trails like this are transformational economic engines,” said Andrea Cooper, executive director of Upstate Forever. “They bring money and jobs to the local economy, boost the quality of life for residents, and offer a safe and accessible way to spend time outdoors. The Saluda Grade Rail Trail will yield a return far beyond any initial investment.”
“Saluda Grade Trail will be an extraordinary recreational amenity for the residents of our region and could become a hub for a burgeoning network of connecting parks, trails and greenways across several counties,” said Kieran Roe, executive director of Conserving Carolina. “The trail will also help preserve and promote awareness of the remarkable history of the Saluda Grade railroad, a 19th-century engineering marvel that was key to the growth and development of this part of the Carolinas...”
It might be the one plan that will utilize the old ROW? RailTrail, or maybe, Those 'rail bikes'(?) at least it would be a real use, particularly, when following some of the weathering, and deterioraton that has been documented on the Old 'Grade'.
AGAIN, I for one, appreciate your updates... Thanks
samfp1943Larry: your 'New York' is showing through :
And the Midwestern roots before that.
I'm not necessarily a fan of Utica Greens, although another local dish - chicken riggies - is pretty darned good. Some places offer a shrimp version, too.
I'm not a fan of cooked spinach, for that matter...
Now back to your regularly scheduled line renewal.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Larry: your 'New York' is showing through :
Having grown up in North Miss and West Tenn... Polk Greens graced our tables in the Spring with some frequency... "Polk Greens" or 'Poke Sallet' [ the latter is a very common Southern Mis-ppronunciation of the description of 'Polk Salad'.]
Just remember... Polk Greens are poision when picked fresh...Normal preperation calls for the fresh greens to be cooked at least TWICE! First boil generally, needs to last about five minutes(until a full boil is reached).
The the greens are drained, and reboiled, until they are mostly, colorless.(about thirty minutes). If the cook is not satisfied with the boiled product....A third time boiling, is not unheard of..
Some Southerners will serve the poke salad with their favorite rice recipe, or with a rice, and their favored condiment (vinegar, spices, peppers,etc.).
The Polk Greens are generally, a Spring 'weed'...They can be picked around about six inches high, and are found in areas of roadside ditches, and fence rows, around old farmsteads.
Might even locate them while railfanning some old, RR ROW; Down South.
So there's your Spring Cookin' Lesson !
OvermodReal southerners know it's 'poke' salad. How they ever figured out that stuff was edible, I don't know... that phytolaccine is vicious stuff.
Had to look it up....
One name for phytolaccine is "poke sallet..."
Sources say it's edible if picked at the right time and cooked.
rixflixAnd since it's in Polk County you'd need Polk Salad Annie to clear the vegetation. Dealing with her other attributes would be a problem.
Real southerners know it's 'poke' salad. How they ever figured out that stuff was edible, I don't know... that phytolaccine is vicious stuff.
A number of the proposed 'autonomous vehicle' schemes might be able to muster the necessary hpt to make it up the grade; zero-rpm dynamic would address concerns of brake fade or one-pipe specific runaways. Streetcars could regularly get adhesion on up to 12% grades loaded.
That the route is inherently 'unsuited' to economical locomotive-hauled trains may in fact make it more attractive if mandated separation of 'lighter' vehicles from trains continues without waivers...
And since it's in Polk County you'd need Polk Salad Annie to clear the vegetation. Dealing with her other attributes would be a problem.
Rick
rixflix aka Captain Video. Blessed be Jean Shepherd and all His works!!! Hooray for 1939, the all time movie year!!! I took that ride on the Reading but my Baby caught the Katy and left me a mule to ride.
UlrichPerhaps advances in the use of distributed power and the development of brake cars over the last 20 years make steeper grades less of a problem. Pulling a long train up a 5.1% grade or trying to control a long train coming down such a grade might be more manageable with lots of horsepower distributed throughout the train. Alternative routing involves running more miles which to date has been cheaper than the shorter routing over Saluda. Who knows, maybe fuel cell or electric locomotives will one day tip things in favor of Saluda once again.
I don't think any level of technological improvement will be able to make operating a line segment with 5.1 percent grade economically viable in relation to competing routes with more nominal graidents.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Perhaps advances in the use of distributed power and the development of brake cars over the last 20 years make steeper grades less of a problem. Pulling a long train up a 5.1% grade or trying to control a long train coming down such a grade might be more manageable with lots of horsepower distributed throughout the train. Alternative routing involves running more miles which to date has been cheaper than the shorter routing over Saluda. Who knows, maybe fuel cell or electric locomotives will one day tip things in favor of Saluda once again.
dubch87Polk County Register of Deeds, Book 225, Page 756
A awful lot of chicken scratching to correct errors in the typed contents.
Polk County Register of Deeds, Book 225, Page 756
Overmod The question I have about fiber optics on the actual grade is that there have been a few hellacious washouts that have cut deep gullies across the ballast prism and subgrade -- I don't see any evidence of a cable line in these areas.
The question I have about fiber optics on the actual grade is that there have been a few hellacious washouts that have cut deep gullies across the ballast prism and subgrade -- I don't see any evidence of a cable line in these areas.
I can't speak for the grade itself and can't identify any exposed cable in that area either, but you can see the fiber optic warning sign at Melrose at the bottom of the grade here. The link above was at the top of the grade in Saluda. Here is a washout near US 25 in Zirconia showing exposed fiber conduit. Below is exposed fiber conduit at the washout at the Vaughn Creek fill south of Tryon, summer of 2013. So it's definitely there, and I'm assuming still in use.
Way too many variables.
1: Fee title and/or reversion interests. If held in fee fiber agreement may be assigned to whomever fee is sold.
2. ROW title is comprised of many components as several prior owners were probably involved, and each fee parcel must be examined to determine what may be done in event of abandonment.
3. Each state has its own requirements regarding disposition, many established through litigation.
blue streak 1 Correct if wrong. Is there a fiber optic cable along the ROW? That might make it impossible to abandon depending on NC rules and how the land parcels were acquired.
Correct if wrong. Is there a fiber optic cable along the ROW? That might make it impossible to abandon depending on NC rules and how the land parcels were acquired.
Oh ok thanks.
C40_9w Hello, ive been following this thread for a while and thought id ask a questio. I dont know much about how railroads operate in this kind of field but howcome theyve kept it so long if it isnt in use? And due to recent events is it a possibility they would do something with it? i know they probably wouldnt use it but why not rip it up to use it for money if they want a profit so bad.
Hello, ive been following this thread for a while and thought id ask a questio. I dont know much about how railroads operate in this kind of field but howcome theyve kept it so long if it isnt in use? And due to recent events is it a possibility they would do something with it? i know they probably wouldnt use it but why not rip it up to use it for money if they want a profit so bad.
While suggestions of re-activating the line are generally met with denial, that doesn't mean the railroad doesn't have some idea that it could someday become necessary and/or desirable. Maintenance has apparently been negligible. Apparently property taxes are not a significant issue. And sometimes the scrap value is overshadowed by the cost of removal - never mind the rails themselves. Remediation is an expense, too.
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ns145 Have no fear, Trip Optimizer and PTC will know just what to do!
Have no fear, Trip Optimizer and PTC will know just what to do!
I walked from Saluda towards sand cut on Thanksgiving of this year. I took this picture about 1/4 mile down. I made it about half way to sand cut & turned around. Briars made it extremely difficult to navigate. Definetly no maintenance has been done.
I wish I had the opportunity to see trains roll through Saluda. It must have been quite an experience with the rail line up high paralleling the Main Street. As it is now, it's just depressing, though the museum is worth seeing.
DUBCH87's analysis makes sense, except for one point:
There are films and videos detailing the safe operation of the grade-- with enough detail to implement a rapid training program, possibly just a few days or week, if necessary.
The fiber lease is probably the real reason it hasn't been fiber banked or abandoned.
Saluda in the era of safety vests, PTC, precision scheduled railroading, and no coal… good luck with that.
The same washouts that have been there for 17+ years are still there. It would cost millions of dollars and take months to reopen the line. Likely no one working for the railroad now knows how to run a train on the mountain and it would take months to train and certify.
Norfolk Southern sold the W-Line from Asheville to Flat Rock to WATCO. They have since down-graded the S-Line through Asheville and pulled through freights. The railbanked section of the W-Line is twenty miles of mountainous line with no industry to serve. Intermodal can take other routes that are longer but faster.
There is still occasional maintenance, but much less now than in years past. The line stayed in pretty good shape (except for the washouts) up until NS sold to WATCO in 2014. It’s still not bad, considering the length of time that has passed and the warm, wet climate being very conducive for vegetative growth. Every now and then a crew will come in and spray herbicide on a section. My only guess as to why they still bother is because they’re required to maintain the right-of-way to some degree due to the lease they have with AT&T for their fiber optic line that shares the RoW.
It would likely cost more to go in and remove the tracks than the scrap could be sold for. Access is pretty limited between Saluda and Tryon.
Google Street View from this year:
Zirconia https://goo.gl/maps/eBxH29Cti9TLHi43A
Saluda 1 https://goo.gl/maps/Z67z1WLM1yUMZry68
Saluda 2 https://goo.gl/maps/L62UrndcGqkzxq2GA
Saluda 3 https://goo.gl/maps/Kfi3ajLvf4Nc59rh8
Landrum 1 https://goo.gl/maps/q5XQdF7y3FirSbhd8
Landrum 2 https://goo.gl/maps/hVhkAmVZWrA2CurT9
I wonder if any maintenance at all has been done to it?
I think I commented earlier that mergers and consolidations have allowed for other routing, avoiding the hassles of running the hill.
That leaves one possibility for keeping rail on the ROW having a "safety valve" should the other routes become a problem (ie, major, long term blockage of other routes).
After all, they already own it, and it has rail on it.
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