BackshopMaybe they've forgotten that it's there? With workforce turnover and transfers, the number of people that remember its operation is probably a small percentage.
I would venture EVERYBODY that operated Saluda in the past has retired.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Maybe they've forgotten that it's there? With workforce turnover and transfers, the number of people that remember its operation is probably a small percentage.
ns145 dubch87 Two decades... pretty sure I read somewhere that the last freight ran on December 9, 2001.And before anyone starts... it will never reopen.
dubch87 Two decades... pretty sure I read somewhere that the last freight ran on December 9, 2001.And before anyone starts... it will never reopen.
Two decades... pretty sure I read somewhere that the last freight ran on December 9, 2001.And before anyone starts... it will never reopen.
To date NS has not undertaken formal abandonment procedures and started to reclaim the track materials for scrap value.
MrBassman81 Any news on Saluda? I was up there a few weeks back & it's a sad sight.
Any news on Saluda? I was up there a few weeks back & it's a sad sight.
I agree, tree 68, sounds like it was dangerous route and if they have an alternative, why not use it. And some of today's employees are not up to the challengers that the old times did routinely. A friend who is retired BNSF engineer, started with the Q, said it was time to retire when the other guy in the cab learned how to drive a train on a simulator. He had spent 3 years on the left side of cab learning how it all worked before he could even think about becoming an engineer.
Sunnyland...I expect it will never see a train again.
Back when Class 1's were the size of today's regionals, a railroad might be stuck using a route because it was the only one they had.
I would opine that today's availability of other routes, on the same railroad, diminishes that need. That they haven't run traffic over the line in almost 20 years tends to confirm such a conclusion.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
i was in Saluda with friends in 2016 and no signs of anything being done. The tracks are still there but the signal lights at crossing have been covered. Did not look bad there, but things I have read about the Grade and pics I have seen, I do not ever expect railroading to come back there. Looked like a brutal ROW and if they do need it for some unknown reason, I expect it will never see a train again.
thanks; this gives us some idea
blue streak 1 How did the passenger trains operate on the grade ? Did the F units have dynamic brakes ? Those were not very efficient ? How many F units and many passenger cars ?
How did the passenger trains operate on the grade ? Did the F units have dynamic brakes ? Those were not very efficient ? How many F units and many passenger cars ?
Johnny
BoydOr make it the first mainline cog railway in the US. Imagine the sound the first time a locomotive jumped the cog.
Now you would want an emergency release of excessive load on the rack gear, and it would likely make one hell of an interesting noise if that happened, but it would be less likely, and better managed, than cogs lifting and stripping vertically...
I have an old N&W training video (not the one on youtube) given to me by a retired conductor about how to operate on Saluda, it's awesome and thrilling at the same time, to imagine being an engineer or conductor getting a coal train up and down that grade, the heart pounding one must have felt running that route as well as the professionalism and pride doing something that's difficult to do, even if part of Saluda was opened, the history and reputation of Saluda would be great.
Or make it the first mainline cog railway in the US. Imagine the sound the first time a locomotive jumped the cog.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
The thing about Saluda is that the trains were stopped more often than they were moving. I remember seeing trains stopped at Melrose, stopped at the crest, or being assembled at the top all of the time. Very rarely did you catch one on the move. It's amazing it stayed open as long as it did.
Downgrade required a stop at the crest to set retainers, then downhill at 8 mph, then stopping again at Melrose to turn the retainers. Upgrade required stopping at Melrose, disconnecting the first sixteen or so cars, pulling those upgrade, dropping off, then going back downhill to grab another set. Do that a few more times, put the train back together and you can keep going.In the last few years, the uphill trains were mostly woodchips bound for the paper mill in Canton. There were still a few mixed freights up and down through the week. I think there was enough horsepower before the end that they could pull the empty coal hoppers up in one or two goes.I don't recall there being any mid-train units during the 90's. Sometimes there were units at the end on the downgrade coal, and I think they were always manned helpers.
If the tracks of the Saluda grade were ever abandoned I think that Salud's could be the first RR ROW ever turned into a ski hill! â›·
Not a Saluda expert by any means, however, I think the primary tonnage was operted downgrad. Coal loads downgrade, empty hoppers upgrade.
I wonder if one aspect of DPU operation would be the coupler strength. The number of cars being pulled by the DPU would be limited to about 15 - 20 cars with the 250K couplers, or about 25 cars with the 350K couplers. However, they could push many more cars since the couplers would be in compression. Practical limit would be not too much 'buff' so as to push the cars near the DPU off the track in a sharp curve, or other bad train-track dynamics.
- PDN.
I've watched that NS training video a couple of times and admire how 5% grades were tackled over 35 yrs. ago. Though NS had been in existance for 2 years at the time the film was made, the locomotives shown were still wearing their SR black and gold 'tuxedo' paint schemes.
BaltACD I don't know if the SOU ever used LocoTrol on their operations on Saluda.
It seemed pretty clear to me that 13,000-ton unit coal trains would demand distributed power, and indeed the 'Saluda, Mountain of Challenge' training video from 1984 clearly covers the 'radio' operation at the time. More modern versions of the technology would augment the 'uphill' part of the operation and probably at least facilitate safe downhill.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9IABM8UPplY
06/13/2020...Re: SALUDA GRADE.... There is a You Tube Video that has an excelent report on 'The Grade'. dates from about a year ago [Sept.9,2019]
See linked @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAlK61l6yQI
It is a video mentioned by one of Jim Wrinn's blog columns about that same time frame. It features some technical data on the saluda grade, many photos from the operational era, and explanations of the'whys, and wherefores' for the existance of the Saluda Grade vs. other lcations in the Western North Carolina area.
It features narrations by locals who are members of the Saluda Depot Museum, in Saluda.
From JimWrinn's colum
FTA:"...The other video offering is on your computer. A young Michigan filmmaker, Drayton Blackgrove, through his Delay in Block Productions, has started a series on abandoned railroads. His first subject is dear to my heart: Saluda grade in Western North Carolina..."
linked @ http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/staff/archive/2019/09/12/two-videos-you-need-to-see-country-music-and-saluda-grade.aspx
dubch87... With the prevalent use of DPUs now, you could have a mid-train unit(s) and rear units and probably make the hill in one go. Could they not have ran DPUs in the late 90's/early 2000's? Downhill would still be a monster. I remember in the last few years of operations seeing rear units on the down-grade coal trains. I’m assuming these were manned, but maybe not. I don’t know if they were for additional dynamic braking or pushing from Asheville to Saluda (or maybe both). Ignoring the costs of rebuilding the line, would it ever make sense to reopen? Intermodal is here and big. The Port of Charleston is growing with a new terminal opening and the upcoming harbor dredging making it the deepest on the east coast. Intermodal traffic from Charleston has to go through Atlanta or Roanoke to get to the Midwest by rail. It’s probably 5 hours between Spartanburg and Atlanta, plus time north through Georgia to Tennessee. Saluda would cut off a lot of hours, at least going uphill. Safety wasn’t as big of a concern going up. Just add more horsepower and throw down sand. Would the cost of rebuilding be cheaper than expansion elsewhere and alleviate any potential bottlenecks along the “Crescent corridor”, even if it was only operated one-way? I know it will never happen, but you have to wonder if there isn’t someone sitting at NS management wondering “would it work?”
With the prevalent use of DPUs now, you could have a mid-train unit(s) and rear units and probably make the hill in one go. Could they not have ran DPUs in the late 90's/early 2000's? Downhill would still be a monster. I remember in the last few years of operations seeing rear units on the down-grade coal trains. I’m assuming these were manned, but maybe not. I don’t know if they were for additional dynamic braking or pushing from Asheville to Saluda (or maybe both).
Ignoring the costs of rebuilding the line, would it ever make sense to reopen? Intermodal is here and big. The Port of Charleston is growing with a new terminal opening and the upcoming harbor dredging making it the deepest on the east coast. Intermodal traffic from Charleston has to go through Atlanta or Roanoke to get to the Midwest by rail. It’s probably 5 hours between Spartanburg and Atlanta, plus time north through Georgia to Tennessee. Saluda would cut off a lot of hours, at least going uphill. Safety wasn’t as big of a concern going up. Just add more horsepower and throw down sand.
Would the cost of rebuilding be cheaper than expansion elsewhere and alleviate any potential bottlenecks along the “Crescent corridor”, even if it was only operated one-way? I know it will never happen, but you have to wonder if there isn’t someone sitting at NS management wondering “would it work?”
SOU was one of the early users of 'LocoTrol' - a predecessor to today's Distributed Power. I don't know if the SOU ever used LocoTrol on their operations on Saluda.
While the line is not operatable at present. From the videos, a work train and MofW crew with the proper supplies could have it operating in a week or less. Being able to opeate tonnage trains on a continuing basis would require a major installment of new rail and ties.
What the economics of the line in today's railroading are is a question I don't have any answer to.
dubch87With the prevalent use of DPUs now, you could have a mid-train unit(s) and rear units and probably make the hill in one go. Downhill would still be a monster.
And therein lies the real issue: you can't control the train using the dynamic as an integral part of the anticipated braking (in case you exceed the all-too-quickly-reached 22 to 23mph range where brake fade becomes infinite with the dynamics disabled or incompetent to hold the whole train) so you'd still have the whole retainer and setting manual brakes thing even with the DB distributed into the equivalent of 2 or 3 shorter consists.
The other half is, of course, that speed is less and less important to PSR and customers both: what's in demand is accurate scheduled delivery. And trains over Saluda in any kind of inclement weather will remain an interesting exercise.
Perhaps if Elon Musk succeeds in getting the Boring Company to make equipment that tunnels in rock at 1/10 current costs, there will be some routing that eliminates the peak gradients...
No one should be asking “When will Saluda reopen?” after watching this video. It is slowly rotting and washing away. Not to mention running Saluda in the age of reflective safety vests and PSR. Not a chance….
HOWEVER… I still have a couple of questions I’ve wanted to ask, but I didn’t want to beat a dead horse.
The “Saluda shuffle” of tripling the hill took a lot of time. In the old days they had helpers waiting at Melrose. Why didn’t they have helpers in the later years? Time/labor = money lost?
blue streak 1 One item that I've noticed. 1. NS does not seem to want to abandon any of their lines at the present time. Maybe they have seen the mistakes that CSX and its predecessors made in abandoing the "S" lines from Norlina - Petersburg & Savannah - JAX , the B&O from Parkersburg - STL., etc. t The Old Fort line may have the potential for a many mile wipe out due to weather ? If so Saluda in that case might be able to go back into service faster ?
One item that I've noticed.
1. NS does not seem to want to abandon any of their lines at the present time. Maybe they have seen the mistakes that CSX and its predecessors made in abandoing the "S" lines from Norlina - Petersburg & Savannah - JAX , the B&O from Parkersburg - STL., etc. t
The Old Fort line may have the potential for a many mile wipe out due to weather ? If so Saluda in that case might be able to go back into service faster ?
Newbie here, so go easy! In response to the above quote, I would agree. The remaining ROW for the AC&Y ends in my village. The Ohio Department of Transportation approached NS about abandoning the ROW so that the overpass (over a county road and the AC&Y) for Interstate 75 could be removed instead of replaced. NS said no, they have no intention of giving up ownership of any additional portions of the ROW. The last train through here was in 81', and the tracks were pulled up between Carey and Delphos, and the entire ROW and grade removed from Delphos to Bluffton. Unless the W&LE decides to lease it and replace all the rails, I highly doubt I will see another train on it in my lifetime.
I found the video of Saluda Grade quite interesting. I am thankful that I was able to take a trip down from Asheville to Hayne and and back in the summer of 1964. Just before we started up the grade, we met a weedkiller train which was spraying the vegetation along the track--and also spraying the track. Somehow the sanders on the engines of our train (four or five cars) were not working, so we were delayed (I did not time the delay), and arrived in Asheville late.
In the srping of 1967, I took an uneventful trip down, riding from Knoxville to Columbia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xNus37RhWA&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR0FeDxtmGjzeZD5hmRh2rGDS-fZP3BxKni6k0wTG9RayaSQXSirq3gXr3Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpTko5oaJhU
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