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Saluda Grade to reopen?

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Posted by Boyd on Tuesday, October 23, 2018 2:02 AM

If some day the RR line is abandoned and the tracks removed, some sections of the ROW could be turned into ski hills. 

Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.

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Posted by rdamon on Friday, October 12, 2018 4:39 PM

The meter by the silver box looks like it is for the traffic signal.  The crossing signal is that green box by the gazebo.  Looks like that meter is gone.

 

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, October 12, 2018 4:15 PM

dubch87

 
The Tyron street view has one puzzling item.  The electric meter for the crossing appears to be in service.  That makes no sense !
 
EDIT.  Further thought it may be the 100 watt service rate at that location may have no charge for no electrical use ?
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Posted by TrainChaste on Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:25 PM

Russell must work for NS. I feel it is presumptuous to say never. Some of us (myself included) feel that this piece of track will be very useful as the rail scean develops. Very strategic piece of track that can not only be repaired but improved. The population in the Carolinas has been steadily rising and the BMW plant near Spartanburg is thriving. Coal is not yet dead and rail traffic is on the rise. Not to mention the fact that a detour was severely needed a few months back when the old fort route had a washout. If you say "never" do you have information that none of us are 'privi' to? Thanks in advance.

Jack Kertzie (Saluda fan)

PS Thanks for the webcam!!!
 

 

PS2 if you don’t come to work drunk you can run Saluda!
 
Electroliner 1935
Has any train operated on this track this year?

 

No and never will.

 

 

[/quote]

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Posted by dubch87 on Thursday, October 11, 2018 3:53 PM

zardoz
 

In the image from the camera (so nicely offered for our viewing), I see that the rails have been paved over.

 
Not quite. Norfolk Southern replaced the wooden flangeways with asphalt about a decade ago due to rough crossings.

Google Street View Saluda

   

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, October 11, 2018 7:20 AM

csxns
No and never will.

One may wonder why - I would opine that when built the line was crucial to the builder, but with mergers over time, the line is superflous.  Clearly that's not what railfans want to hear.

Wikipedia says the line has been completely isolated - rails pulled, etc.  

One of the original lines in my area - the Utica and Black River - had a center portion pulled up in the 1960's.  The primary reason was taxes, however.  That 14 miles added nothing to the bottom line, and the remaining industries could all be reached by other routes.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, October 10, 2018 10:22 PM

csxns
No and never will.

In the image from the camera (so nicely offered for our viewing), I see that the rails have been paved over.

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Posted by csxns on Tuesday, October 9, 2018 3:09 PM

Electroliner 1935
Has any train operated on this track this year?

No and never will.

Russell

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Tuesday, October 9, 2018 12:56 PM

Thanks for the camera. Wish I had been able to have ridden the 611 trip up the hill. My Dad had told me of riding a scheduled train on this route back in the 40's. Has any train operated on this track this year?

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Posted by rktrekker on Monday, October 8, 2018 5:32 PM

Hi Everyone, 

It has been a while since I have posted anything, but wanted to post a link here for a new Streaming Youtube Webcam that I have installed for the City of Saluda, The Camera is installed on City Hall and has a clear view of town and just as importantly, a view of the crest in town of the actual Grade. You can also drag the bar in the bottom of the screen to go back in time up to (4) Hours.  The camera is running 24X7, hope everyone enjoys. Comments on Youtube are purposely disabled. The link is below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBloQ2fHDJU

Thanks

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Posted by JAKE MILLER on Wednesday, September 12, 2018 5:50 PM
Good to see that this forum is still being used. I remember hearing that the Great Smoky Mountains Railroad was once looking at trying to start a passenger train (Or something along the lines of that) out of Saluda, down the grade, and back. Is this still in the works, or have plans fallen through for that as well?
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Posted by MP173 on Sunday, March 11, 2018 8:51 AM

What a fascinating look at the world 50 years ago.

Ed

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, March 9, 2018 4:15 PM

BaltACD

 

 
dubch87
Somebody found some 8mm film of the last passenger train up the Saluda Grade in 1968.

https://www.facebook.com/matthew.lytle.56/videos/1793447414019245/

 

Surprised it was only a single unit to go upgrade.

 

Figure 60 tons per passenger car plus 120 for the locomotive.  That's 300 tons at 20x4 #/ton to get up the hill = 24,000# of TE.  No sweat for a four axle - even one geared for passenger service.

 

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, March 8, 2018 6:44 PM

dubch87
Somebody found some 8mm film of the last passenger train up the Saluda Grade in 1968.

https://www.facebook.com/matthew.lytle.56/videos/1793447414019245/

Surprised it was only a single unit to go upgrade.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by dubch87 on Thursday, March 8, 2018 4:14 PM

Somebody found some 8mm film of the last passenger train up the Saluda Grade in 1968.

https://www.facebook.com/matthew.lytle.56/videos/1793447414019245/

   

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Posted by rktrekker on Thursday, November 23, 2017 7:59 AM

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone, while I have not yet had time to collect my pictures from the Saluda Grade Walk in April of 2016, I have found pictures that I took of the track cut at mile marker 26 in East Flat Rock. I have seen many pictures of the cut at mile marker 45, and even visited that location. But, have few if any pictures of the East Flat Rock Location. This is located off of Zirconia Road behind the Church with a small Cemetary. The rail cars in the distance belong to Watco, who use the rails for storage. Enjoy and let me know what you think.

https://image.ibb.co/ed9EdR/IMG_1005.jpg https://image.ibb.co/bQkbsm/IMG_1006.jpg https://image.ibb.co/cfoqJR/IMG_1007.jpg https://image.ibb.co/ccZak6/IMG_1008.jpg https://image.ibb.co/h9jxyR/IMG_1009.jpg https://image.ibb.co/iezmsm/IMG_1010.jpg https://image.ibb.co/fP1XXm/IMG_1011.jpg

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Posted by dubch87 on Tuesday, November 21, 2017 2:51 PM

A Norfolk Southern MoW crew cleared the section between U.S. 176 (Trade St.) in Tryon and the washout at the Vaughan Creek fill in October. I didn't witness it, but later saw where it had been cleared at the Carson St. crossing. They've done this before in other sections. You can see an example in Google Map imagery where they cleared east of the Vaughan Creek washout to east of Ridge Rd. I guess it's cheaper just to clear a small section at a time and alternate years. They kept the entire right-of-way pretty well maintained up until 2014 when Blue Ridge Southern/WATCO bought the line between Asheville and Flat Rock.

What boggles my mind is that they still bother sixteen years later. Do they have to because of the fiber optic line sharing the right-of-way?

On another note, the Saluda Historic Depot board attended the "Railroads and Regional Economic Development Conference 2017" in Asheville on Sept. 22. Supposedly the Great Smoky Mountains RR is interested in helping to get an Asheville-Hendersonville-Saluda tourist train going. I'm not saying it's going to happen, just quoting the article.

If anyone is really bored, here is a list of all the washouts I'm aware of along the W-Line between Zirconia and Landrum. Going west to east:

   

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, November 21, 2017 10:58 AM

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for the report.  By all means post pictures if not too much trouble,  We would all enjoy seeing them,

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, November 21, 2017 10:50 AM

Thank you for that description of the current appearance of the track.

By the way, for the benefit of any who do not know what a "branch" (as mentioned) is, it is not another track, but is a small watercourse.

Johnny

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Posted by rktrekker on Monday, November 20, 2017 7:09 PM

Hello Train Fans, this is my first posting on any site, and wanted to comment on my walk on the Saluda Grade in late April of 2016. I am in Saluda often, have a number of computer customers in the Area along with City Hall. My mom and I parked at the top of the Grade in Saluda on a Saturday Morning, walked the entire grade from town to Melrose and to the Big Washout below Melrose. While this is a steep grade for trains, we are both in great shape, and other than some worn out feet from all of the rocks on the ties, we had a great walk. While we did encounter some Kudzu before Melrose, it was mostly just a tripping hazard, no leaves, just vines and we were able to pass thru it at that time. Also, just before the Kudzu, a small branch is now running down the center of the rails for some distance. I did not know about the trestle that is about 1/3 of a mile before the washout, and we almost turned back due to the height. Came across several snakes, wild turkey and other smaller wild life. The runaway track at the bottom of the grade is completely grown over, and the tracks just disappear into the mountain and vegetation. The tracks were surprisingly free of vegetation otherwise, and crossing the Pacolet River was no problem. I was unable to figure out where the second runaway track once was. I can post some pictures if anyone is curious. The tracks are quite rusty, and the Wash Out is VERY serious, along with another washout that is about 2 miles down the grade from the crest in the town of Saluda. I can say with certainy, that some effort is still being made by Norfolk Southern to keep the right of way clear, noticed that one tree that was crossing one set of rails had been cut and pulled out of the way. I did see the timing section signs that are mentioned often. Any Electrical Signal Panels along the way have been vandalized and would take considerable effort to repair since they have been left open to the elements for some time. It took us about 4 hours for the whole walk, taking time for pictures along the way. 

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Posted by TrainChaste on Monday, April 24, 2017 8:53 AM

[quote user="mbinsewi"]

I'm sure everyone has seen this, if not, it's a great video.  Like a training video by the Southern.

 Yes I have seen that video many times but thanks just the same. That may be the only Belmont we get to watch on the grade so if anyone has not yet seen it they should give it a view. I walked the grade in September 2016 down from the town of Saluda but once you get near Melrose the Kudzu vine in impassable. I was in up to my neck and turned around. Then I drove to Melrose and walked up as far as possible again until the vines were too thick. I guessed that about 1/2 mile of the grade is impassable with the tracks invisible. Never found the trestle over the river branch off of the Pacolet river which I believe is about 3/4 of a mile west of Melrose but I may try again. I was really trying to find the timing signal (in the video frame above) but could find no evidence of it or the "end timing section" sign as well. I would guess someone took that! The actual signal is likely covered with vines. Anyway I would be interested to know if it is still there if anyone knows.
 
Jack Kertzie

 

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, April 23, 2017 2:13 PM

Coincidence Department -

Yesterday I picked up a copy of Classic Trains I had laying around and found it contained a story about a Southern wreck at Glenita.  

The train?  The Belmont...

LarryWhistling
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Posted by mbinsewi on Friday, April 21, 2017 1:32 PM

I'm sure everyone has seen this, if not, it's a great video.  Like a training video by the Southern.

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Posted by TrainChaste on Wednesday, April 19, 2017 9:04 AM
NS has said no to many uses of this line over the past twelve years or so. Lets just hope they say no this time. I heard that NS pays almost nothing in taxes on this line however that could be a rumor. Also, the argument of NS selling the line to Asheville to WATCO is not an indication that NS does not intend to use the grade. I am sure they would be able to work out an agreement for trackage rights. At least those tracks are being maintained. Jack Kertzie
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Posted by samfp1943 on Tuesday, April 18, 2017 7:10 PM

dubch87

Local communities are starting another push for Rails to Trails. Their points are that it has been 15+ years since any rail activity and the line will likely never see traffic again, part of the line has already been sold, and NS is looking to downgrade or sell numerous lines in the coming years.

Saluda discusses rails to trails project at commission meeting

 

      Seems as if the Local Communities, and their Political entities are possibly asking for something they might regret at a later date ?

    THe NS's "W" line seems to qualify as a candidate for Rail-Banking, and a Rails to Trails Project. It is definitely an Interstate facility.

For starters, Here is something to read:   FTL: "...The Rails-to-Trails Act ("Trails Act") provides localities and nonprofits with a useful tool for transforming dormant rail rights-of-way (“ROWs”) into recreational trails.  16 USC § 1247(d).[1]  The Act streamlines the legal complexity of trail conversion by providing a clear and systemic framework for the railroad to transfer ownership of the corridor to a third party sponsor organization (known as the “interim trail manager”).  Only a ROW in the interstate, common carrier rail network (hereinafter, a “common carrier line”) [2] is eligible for trail conversion under the procedures of the Trails Act.  16 USC § 1247(d).[3]  All railbanked ROWs are subject to reactivation for rail service,[4] so potential trail sponsors should consider this risk when drafting the railbanking agreement and investing in the trail corridor.  Finally, railbanking is a voluntary transaction between the railroad and the trail manager—nothing in the statute obligates the railroad to negotiate or agree to railbanking.[5]  However, because the Act allows railroads to shed property tax liability without foreclosing the possibility of future rail service along the corridor, it is often an attractive proposition for inactive common carrier lines...."

[First paragraph copied from the following linked site] "Stanford Environmental Law Journal (SELJ) "  

@ https://journals.law.stanford.edu/stanford-environmental-law-journal-elj/blog/primer-rails-trails-conversions-eastern-us

Sections (1) and(2) of that same paragraph also bear some reading as well;Rails to Trails, is not the total resolution of their issues with the  un-used "W" line, and adjacent properties...  As the folks up in New York State found when trying to scoop up the ROW of The Adirondack Scenic.

          As Mudchicken has warned, One MUST have to start at the very beginning with the Original Deeds, and how they spelled out the property rights of the original owners (and/or grantors) of the original railline.

   I recall from some years back that the original(A&SRR) railroad ROW was subject of much rancor and 'political wrangling' in the established Legislatures of both N.C. and S.C.  Not to mention the Corporate, intramural maneuvers during the original phases of construction of the Asheville& Spartanburg RR. The first train was in 1878 (4th of July).      

 

 

 


 

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Posted by dubch87 on Tuesday, April 18, 2017 6:18 PM

Local communities are starting another push for Rails to Trails. Their points are that it has been 15+ years since any rail activity and the line will likely never see traffic again, part of the line has already been sold, and NS is looking to downgrade or sell numerous lines in the coming years.

Saluda discusses rails to trails project at commission meeting

   

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Posted by Mike123 on Monday, March 27, 2017 1:22 PM

Does anyone know when this industry at Inman Mills, SC ceased rail service? I read somewhere that the industry itself closed in 2001, but I can't find the date of closure for rail service.

 

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Posted by Sunnyland on Tuesday, December 20, 2016 6:33 PM

Railfan friends and I stopped at Saluda to see the tracks which are still there, but the crossing is bagged.  It doesn't look that steep at the summit but you can see where  it starts to go downhill. Saw pics of wrecks on the Grade, so it was wicked and I doubt if they will ever reopen it.   

We also stopped to see Old Fort Loops and just missed a NS freight on the Loops. It was coming into the town when we arrived.  NCTM is worth visiting, so we had an enjoyable time in NC, my first time in the state.  also rode Great Smokies Scenic train. 

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Posted by TrainChaste on Saturday, December 10, 2016 11:34 AM
    Nice to see action on this thread. I think that I am likely a bit of an optimist but there are several reasons that this line could open again or at least stay intact. There are some very small hints or reasons why NS has not yet removed anything on this line other than the signal batteries. My brother-n-law and I walked the grade from Saluda down as far as we could with Melrose just out of our sight in September 2016. Too much Kudzu to walk through. I stopped walking when it go up to my neck! We drove down to Melrose and walked up as far as we could as well. Anyway, here goes....
 
1. The tracks are still there! No big secret but if they come out then that is it. From what I understand there are many landowners that have those tracks running through there private property because of family agreements (easements) when the line was built. Now some of there surviving family members want money for this property so there is some active issues occuring.
 
2. Are all the crossings exempt? I do not really know but if not then there have been thousands of school buses stopping at these crossings for many years now in Tryon and Saluda and in a few other places.
 
3. This three mile segment of the W line cuts out over a hundred miles for trains running between Spartanburg and Ashville. It is no longer legal to build a main line with over a  2.2% ruling grade. Saluda is just over 5%. Why give that up?
 
4. The S line from what I understand has seven tunnels and I believe a seventeen mile 2.2% grade out of Old Fort, NC which ain't no picnic. This is the line that some of the former traffic from Saluda runs. I have heard that these tunnels will not accommodate stack (junk) trains. Saluda does not have those restraints.
 
5. Engines and track are much better than they were fifteen years ago.
 
6. Traffic patterns change. Yes we have heard that before but it is true. NS would have a heck of an advantage with the W line.
 
7. The W line has been reconnect up to Saluda on the NS system map. They had taken that out a while back. Maybe they want potential customers to see that line going through on their map. BMW is in Spartanburg. Just a thought. A large customer or two might sway the rr to fix the line. They know how to do that!
 
8. There are some small signs of maintenance to the line. Not much though. However when I was there in September I noticed that nothing on the line has been removed. Propane tanks, signals, out buildings... Some things may have been taken but not by the RR. Just west of Melrose just beyond the bridge over the river there is an old private crossing. It is overgrown and unused as far as I could tell. However there is a new sign there with contact information in case there is a problem. Likely a requirement since the line is not actually abandoned. Also, the vegetation at Melrose is much less now in 2016 than in the 2014 photo above and by September in that part of the south it would have been fully overgrown by then. In the town of Saluda the tracks look very clean. I am sure the town would like to keep it that way. Lastly when I went by the depot in Saluda I noticed one of the three tracks had evidence of a highrail going through. Just a little bit of tire tread on the railhead. I do not know how long that tread mark was there but it was there.
 
9. The military might not want this line removed either.
 
I could really go on and on but I need to stop somewhere! If all went well you should see some of my photos below. 

 

Jack Kertzie
 
 
 
 
 
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Posted by dubch87 on Friday, December 9, 2016 1:46 PM

Fifteen years ago today, the last regular service freight train ran up the Saluda Grade. The line has been railbanked/out-of-service since 2003. Norfolk Southern still maintains ownership of the line, and the line has not been officially abandoned. The company has stated in the past that it does not intend to abandon the line, but will continue to hold onto it should future traffic patterns warrant its reopening. While rumors of reopening have come and gone over the past fifteen years, there has been no indication that this will ever happen. Below is a timeline with links of the events that have occurred over the past fifteen years.

  • December 9, 2001 – Last regular service freight train runs up the grade.
  • Summer 2002(?) – A Norfolk Southern inspection train traverses the line. This may have been the last train to run the line. (6:00 mark in the video, photographed near Landrum).
  • April 2, 2003 – The line is severed in East Flat Rock and Landrum, S.C. All signals are deactivated.
  • September 2004 – Torrential rains from three back-to-back tropical storms cause a large washout of the line between Melrose and Tryon, rendering the line impassable. Additional, smaller washouts have also formed in the time since.
  • Late Winter 2012 – Norfolk Southern performs extensive T&S work between Landrum and Hayne Yard in Spartanburg, S.C., leading to speculation about the line reopening. (See discussion beginning on page 4 of this very thread.)
  • December 6, 2012 – The Norfolk Southern Exhibit Car is scheduled to appear in Landrum as part of Norfolk Southern’s 30th anniversary tour, leading to further speculation about the line’s reopening. The exhibit car was originally planned to be on display at the Landrum Depot, on the disconnected side of the line, but was ultimately placed outside of town on an accessible portion of the line.
  • July 2014 – Norfolk Southern sells the segment of the W-Line between Asheville and East Flat Rock to WATCO. The line is now part of the Blue Ridge Southern Railroad.
  • Present – After selling a portion of the line to WATCO, Norfolk Southern appears to not be maintaining the right-of-way to its previous standards.

With its staggeringly steep grade, stringent operating procedures, and high operating costs, it’s a surprise that the Saluda Grade remained open as long as it did. With the unprecedented decline in coal volumes over the past few years, and with no other sources of revenue in the picture, the line appears to be in a position to never reopen.

   

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