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Saluda Grade to reopen?

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, March 16, 2023 9:39 PM

dubch87

Wonder if they will engineer in 'safety escape' trails for bikers that lose their brakes coming down grade?

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by dubch87 on Thursday, March 16, 2023 7:08 PM

   

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Posted by csxns on Thursday, March 16, 2023 6:25 PM

Just don't eat the BBQ.

Russell

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Posted by Ulrich on Thursday, March 16, 2023 5:44 PM

csxns

NS is going to sale Saluda grade it is going to be a rail trail.

 

Well, hopefully it happens soon.. I look forward to riding it.

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Posted by csxns on Thursday, March 16, 2023 3:19 PM

NS is going to sale Saluda grade it is going to be a rail trail.

Russell

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Posted by C40_9w on Saturday, September 17, 2022 1:51 AM

I honestly wish I was around to see trains run up saluda, it seemed like such an interesting piece of engineering which is was and still is. I went there a few months ago and the state of the track is just sad. I wish one day something would happen but thats never gonna happen with whats going on now. Now im just curious to see the outcome of it today.

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Posted by Backshop on Tuesday, August 2, 2022 6:12 PM

I wonder how many of the NIMBYs ride rail trails when they go on vacation somewhere else?  I've never know any trails that had a littering or vandalism problem.

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, August 2, 2022 5:42 PM

kgbw49
I would suspect for Saluda on a standard bike most people will have to get down in the lower gears of their sprocket and grind uphill,

Oftimes, it's easier to just get off and walk...

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Ulrich on Tuesday, August 2, 2022 3:28 PM

kgbw49

Colleagues, I bike (not e-bike) 2000+ miles per year. Not the most and not the least but a decent number. 3% or more for a sustained length of several miles will really get your heart pumping as BaltACD mentioned. I would suspect for Saluda on a standard bike most people will have to get down in the lower gears of their sprocket and grind uphill, not unlike all those Southern long-hood-forward locomotives had to do. Quads would likely feel the burn a bit even for those who clip in.

 

 

Yes, getting into lower gears is also a good way to save one's knees from serious  damage. 

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Posted by kgbw49 on Sunday, July 31, 2022 11:44 AM

Colleagues, I bike (not e-bike) 2000+ miles per year. Not the most and not the least but a decent number. 3% or more for a sustained length of several miles will really get your heart pumping as BaltACD mentioned. I would suspect for Saluda on a standard bike most people will have to get down in the lower gears of their sprocket and grind uphill, not unlike all those Southern long-hood-forward locomotives had to do. Quads would likely feel the burn a bit even for those who clip in.

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Posted by diningcar on Sunday, July 31, 2022 8:25 AM

It is my experience that each State is different, due to legislation and past legal judgements. 

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, July 30, 2022 9:14 PM

blue streak 1

What is the situation of the land owner ship underneath the tracks and ROW?  There is a conduit under at least part of the line in question.  Permanent easements, rail only easemens, NS ( nee SOU RR ) owned, combined easemets,  different owners on different sections, leased from different owners, etc ?

This is how MC makes his living.  

And the agreements involved (leases, easements, etc, and so on) often go back well over 100 years.  

If NS owns the line "fee simple" (ie, the land was bought and paid for by the railroad in the first place), no big deal.  If the line is cobbled together of said easements, etc, and the property owners lawyer up, it could get interesting.

I'm sure the real estate folks at NS have been doing their due diligence.  Or not...

LarryWhistling
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Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
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There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

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Posted by C40_9w on Friday, July 29, 2022 3:16 PM

I was reading an article about the rails to trails propositio for saluda and many of the residents that live track side were very adament about not wanting it to become a bike path. The reason is most of the people the track runs in their backyards and letting it sit will not intervene with their privac. If they make it a trail they say its gonna bring too much attention and would probably cause a lot of issues regarding land and people. I dont remember the article but if I find it I will post it. Honestly I agree with them in the sense of privacy. People could easily just walk into their land or litter around the area basically ruining the land around it. Honestly they should just make it sit. 

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Posted by dubch87 on Friday, July 29, 2022 6:50 AM

C40_9w

Personally I dont think Rails to Trails would get it. Theyve asked for the past 20 years and from what I hear NS declines everytime. Who knows, only the future will tell. Whistling

 


That's what's different this time. Several times in the past, NS said NO right from the start. They're not saying that this time. They're not commenting and stating they won't "provide any information on the railway's strategic assets out of respect for the inquiring party." That's business-speak for negotiating a price. The non-profits have already said as much.

A new article from The Tryon Daily Bulletin reports an estimated cost of $30 million to purchase and $30 million to build the trail.

blue streak 1

What is the situation of the land owner ship underneath the tracks and ROW?  There is a conduit under at least part of the line in question.  Permanent easements, rail only easemens, NS ( nee SOU RR ) owned, combined easemets,  different owners on different sections, leased from different owners, etc ?

 



This is what complicates it. My understanding is that the property owners own the land that the railroad goes over and that it is only a right-of-way. Norfolk Southern is the only railroad involved. I assume the Sprint fiber lease would simply transfer to the next owner of the right-of-way. I am definitely not an expert in landownership, rights-of-way and deeds.

Landowners along the nearby Ecusta Trail were in the process of starting a federal lawsuit claiming their land was taken without compensation. I'm not sure of the status, but the trail is still moving forward. The North Carolina General Assembly was responsible for the push to get the railroads completed into western North Carolina and there may be all sorts of loopholes and legalese. I can't imagine having to go through 140 years worth of land deeds to figure that one out.

https://wlos.com/news/local/property-owners-along-proposed-ecusta-trail-are-part-of-lawsuit-against-federal-government 

In years past, several landowners put up a fuss when rails-to-trails were mentioned (see article posted above and this one). The county and Town of Tryon have both rescinded letters supporting rail-to-trails in the past after receiving some backlash. Things seem to be farther along this time around, but it could still fall apart.
 
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that part of the proposed trail is currently still an active (but unused) rail line. The section from Landrum to Inman is still maintained and fully accessible. The only potential customer is Capps Brothers Woodyard in Landrum. They used to be one of the sources of the woodchips that went up the Saluda Grade, but they stopped shipping by rail at least a decade ago.

   

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, July 29, 2022 4:38 AM

What is the situation of the land owner ship underneath the tracks and ROW?  There is a conduit under at least part of the line in question.  Permanent easements, rail only easemens, NS ( nee SOU RR ) owned, combined easemets,  different owners on different sections, leased from different owners, etc ?

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Posted by C40_9w on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 3:55 PM

Honestly NS could lease it out to the Rails to Trails guys so NS could retain ownership of the line just under a lease. They would be making more money off of it. RTR would pay to repair the washouts and put ashphalt in and if NS sees the need for the line, they just terminate the lease and pour ballast ontop. Its been done before. Personally I dont think Rails to Trails would get it. Theyve asked for the past 20 years and from what I hear NS declines everytime. Who knows, only the future will tell. Whistling

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, July 25, 2022 1:17 PM

Properly-designed e-bikes... whether rail or trail... would also be of strong benefit in dynamic.  One lever for proportional regenerative braking; a "pull-out' or magnetic switch as on a treadmill that smoothly stops at maximum rate; a computer that can sense unsafe operation or project collisions, and ATC-apply the brake as needed. 

The idea from the other thread, of an electric assist that 'makes up' everything beyond comfortable pedaling exercise for a particular 'crew', would likely be a better factor in increasing the effective 'take rate' of a rail-bike operation over this trackage.

The required bridging (or fills, if you have government-size pockets) can be of lighter construction... we have examples of this on the ex-NC&StL main as rebuilt into the "Green Line". 

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Posted by Ulrich on Monday, July 25, 2022 12:56 PM

BaltACD

 

 
Ulrich
E bikes are a nice compromise for people who want exercise yet need a little bit of assistence on the hilly stretches. Around here alot of people, young and old, have come to prefer them as the terrain is rather hilly. Most people envision Ontario as rather flat.. until they've tried to cycle here. I would imagine that would go triple for the Saluda grade area.. nothing but mountains there. 

 

For all those who don't think the number representing the percent of grade mean anything - go buy yourself a heart rate monitor for your exercise walk/run/biking activities.  Note your heart rate when navigating on level ground!  Note your heart rate when navigating desecnding ground!  Note your heart rate when navigating ascending ground!  Note your heartrate the longer your ascending grade is.

The human body is a machine, the harder it works, the hgher the heart rate is needed to supply the necessary level of energy for the body to accomplish its task.

 

 

Very true.. and as one gets older, note how your knees feel when you exert excessive pressure on hills. The E bike is also a great option for people with knee and back problems..i.e. 50% plus of people over 50. 

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, July 25, 2022 12:34 PM

Ulrich
E bikes are a nice compromise for people who want exercise yet need a little bit of assistence on the hilly stretches. Around here alot of people, young and old, have come to prefer them as the terrain is rather hilly. Most people envision Ontario as rather flat.. until they've tried to cycle here. I would imagine that would go triple for the Saluda grade area.. nothing but mountains there. 

For all those who don't think the number representing the percent of grade mean anything - go buy yourself a heart rate monitor for your exercise walk/run/biking activities.  Note your heart rate when navigating on level ground!  Note your heart rate when navigating desecnding ground!  Note your heart rate when navigating ascending ground!  Note your heartrate the longer your ascending grade is.

The human body is a machine, the harder it works, the hgher the heart rate is needed to supply the necessary level of energy for the body to accomplish its task.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Ulrich on Monday, July 25, 2022 10:54 AM

E bikes are a nice compromise for people who want exercise yet need a little bit of assistence on the hilly stretches. Around here alot of people, young and old, have come to prefer them as the terrain is rather hilly. Most people envision Ontario as rather flat.. until they've tried to cycle here. I would imagine that would go triple for the Saluda grade area.. nothing but mountains there. 

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Posted by adkrr64 on Monday, July 25, 2022 9:34 AM

I think e-bikes, as originally envisioned, were targeted at someone who wanted to commute using a bike instead of a car. Showing up to work sweaty after a commute of any distance, using just your own legs, requires showering & changing facilities at your destination (I know - I have ridden my bike to and from work many times, some 23 miles).

Over time, though, I'm sure there is a market for people who would like to go out and spend some time on a bike who might not otherwise be in the physical condition to do so. Electric bikes fill the bill nicely for such people.

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Posted by Backshop on Monday, July 25, 2022 7:07 AM

I'm not sure that I get the concept of e-bikes.  I thought that bikes were for exercise.  In my younger days, I used to regularly ride centuries and metric centuries.

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Posted by Ulrich on Sunday, July 24, 2022 8:57 PM

That's right, electric assisted bikes are becoming ever more common. I think I can chuff up that grade under my own power, however the ebikes are a great option for those who might need a bit of a boost. 

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, July 24, 2022 12:17 PM

Gramp
And electric bikes are more prevalent for those who need a "helper" for the grade. 

Do those bikes have dynamics for the trip down?  They might want to put in runoffs for the bike riders.  And benches for those going up the hill.

4.3% is about 2.5 degres.  Doesn't sound like much, but I'll bet you ll be huffing and puffing by the time you get to the top of the three miles.  Even walking.

You're climbing 600 feet vertically.

That doesn't mean it can't be done, but forewarned is forearmed...

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Gramp on Saturday, July 23, 2022 10:56 PM

Ulrich

I believe the grade is 4.8%. Very steep for a train but quite manageable on a bicycle..

 

And electric bikes are more prevalent for those who need a "helper" for the grade. 

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Posted by dubch87 on Saturday, July 23, 2022 1:59 PM

I can't imagine this announcement would be made and state dollars already set aside if NS wasn't serious about selling. The non-profits just need to raise the amount NS wants for the line. It's been sitting for 20 years and will never see another train.

There are two nearby rail trails: the Thermal Belt Rail Trail in Rutherford County and the upcoming Ecusta Trail in Henderson and Transylvania counties. Both trails had ties and rails removed. The Thermal Belt Rail trail is a 12-ft asphalt path. I foresee the same or similar happening for Saluda Grade.

WATCO sold the 19-mile TR branch for $7.8 million last year. The first 6 miles of the Ecusta Trail are expected to be constructed soon at a cost of around $6.5 million. Total cost to construct the entire trail is estimated at $31 million.

Construction costs will probably be much higher for the Saluda stretch due to the aforementioned washouts. The majority are relatively minor and could be addressed with fill, but the big one east of the Big Fall Creek trestle will probably have to be addressed with a pedestrian bridge.

Assuming this goes forward, it will likely proceed in phases as funding becomes available. The 4-mile stetch connecting Tryon and Landrum would probably be first.

Hopefully some interpretive markers can be added at various points along the grade (stop boards, braking, runaway tracks, timing section, splitting up at Melrose, etc.) to provide a history of the line for future generations rather than letting it sit forgotten and reclaimed by nature.

   

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Posted by Ulrich on Saturday, July 23, 2022 10:54 AM

I believe the grade is 4.8%. Very steep for a train but quite manageable on a bicycle..

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Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, July 23, 2022 8:26 AM

I have biked the Mickelson Trail between Hill City and Custer, SD.

Going upgrade to the summit at Crazy Horse is one heck of a pull on a bicycle. I don't know what the grade is there but if Saluda Grade is similar or steeper people are in for one heck of a workout if it ever becomes either a railbike route or a traditional bike route.

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, July 22, 2022 9:17 PM

Overmod
Could they just lay topping over the existing track and 'leave it in place'?  That would give them their trail while keeping the railroad at least legally 'in place'...

Fixing the areas that have been washed out will be a chore - no matter if the right of way is to be used for rail or trail.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, July 22, 2022 8:08 PM

Could they just lay topping over the existing track and 'leave it in place'?  That would give them their trail while keeping the railroad at least legally 'in place'...

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