Off Topic - Why do americans need such big cars???

[TH&B]

25 mpg is NOT good fuel economy, of course it looks good compared to 15mpg, but that is just comparing bad to worse. If I was to spend real money to buy a new car 45mpg is minimum, preferably 50 or more. But as long as I'm saving big bucks buying used depreciated big junky vehicles and not realy putting away many miles it is easier and more interesting to drive the big cars that I do.
Ever drive a big American car in Europe? I did, test drove an early '70s T-bird buddy had imported from the USA, man what a head tuner, when testing the V-8 power I accidently accelerated down the wrong way street because they have to many road signs over there and then I had to drive up on the grass meridian to find the right road, but I could feel people watching and thinking "that big American car is realy cool and it makes that guy driving it look cool too!" I remember laughing at for a car this big there sure wasn't much room in the trunk for stuff hehe. American cars may be poorly made and all, but they are a hoot to drive! Until you run out of gas that is.

[oltmannd]

Oil is still plentiful and fairly cheap. There are alternatives waiting in the wings when the price of oil rises too high. Biodiesel and ethanol come to mind. Also, there is a new process to extract a diesel equivalent from coal than could produce fuel at roughly $2.50 a gallon, so, unless the US gov't gets tax happy, liquid petroleum or equivalent fuel should be abundant and priced no more than $4/gallon or so for years and years to come.

What to drive is an economic decision each person has to make for themselves. If you want different results, change the economics. BTW, I have a Ford Expedition which gets horrible gas mileage, but carries 8 people and tows my travel trailer and a Toyota Camry which I carpool in and gets 25 mpg.

[Modelcar]

...Yes, I have asked in previous post why we are not building more refineries...If they are profitable why not...? And V8 engines of present probably get nearly as good as milage as V6's in the recent past....Not all, but quite a few now have very good fuel numbers.
...If we have gone to Iraq to stablize the country and save the people from the worst dictator in recent history and now have the oil production under control...[forget the WMD], Why shouldn't we have the advantage of being the favorite customer to help our situation of short oil supply....We've paid for it with lives and American dollars. No that's not happening, instead we're being faced with the highest prices in history...! Good old America.....go save everyone and end up giving what's gained to everyone else.

[Anonymous]

i read in a newspaper that in 1990 only 40 percent of the new cars and trucks sold in America had V-8 engines, in 2002 over 52 percent of the new cars and trucks sold had V-8 engines.... Obviously the price of gasoline has not gone up enough..... We are buying bigger cars and trucks, not to mention buying bigger houses, at the very same time we have reached peak production of petroleum worldwide....As far as America is concerned, we now pump half the oil we did 30 years ago and consume twice as much....

Peak oil, I suggest all of us do a google search on this term.... The Europeans and the Asians are far ahead of us in conserving energy.... Americans act as if oil grew on trees.... The reason gas prices are higher even before summer is that we have reached peak oil, consuming more than we can produce.... supply and demand in the future will only get worst....

Keep in mind there hasn't been a new refinery built in American in 30 years.... Ever wonder why there hasn't been any built, especially in a free market system? Even if the world pumped more oil, we don't have the capacity to refine more..... Cheap gas is a thing of the past, with the free market alone, expect gas prices to reach $5 a gallon in five years, if not more. As long as there is a shortage of gas at the pumps, the price will increase more and more as the shortage gets larger....

I drive a VW Cabrio, a 2 liter 4 cyclinder car which gets around 30 mph highway. I wished VW offered the Cabrio in its 1.9 liter turbo diesel which gets over 45 mpg highway. I have almost paid off the Cabrio and am looking at a Golf or Jetta with the 1.9 liter turbo diesel as my next car... However, I wished VW sold the Lupo in America, it gets over 60 mph....

Is this the next newest SUV to hit America:

[daveklepper]

What about Hybrids? Dave

[ozarkrailfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Saw an interesting story on the news a few weeks back.

A professional woman had purchased a brand new "Hummer". After driving it for a few weeks, she wanted the dealership to take it back! She explained that "she didn't know that it would drink so much gas!"

Is it just me or do automobiles today have worse gas mileage than a decade or so? I don't think there's a good enough reason for a vehicle like the Hummer not to get at least 30 mpg.

[Anonymous]

Had to respond (check my profile!) The answer to the post is both consumer-driven and political in nature. We'll skip the long history lesson and jump straight to now.....ok- 5-6 years ago. Gas prices were down, the economy was up, we (Americans- the subject of the post) wanted more (bigger,badder- a new generation,mind you) and the car companies not only obliged- they vamped up before you knew you wanted them. SUV's and full-sized trucks have been best-sellers for the car companies. You know when you see Buick ( a conservative 'older-demographic') building suv's that there is a market they are missing out in. The suv market is huge but you have to realise that for every suv sold there are 2 or 3 economy or mid-size cars sold also. That's how the manufactures can do it politically- sell one ULEV vehicle (ultra-low-emission vehicle) say the Toyo Camry and that makes up for two Sequoia's (14-19 mpg, if that). Sell one Prius (sulev) and that makes up for three. In the US for auto manufacturers it's all about CAFE requirements- thats the bottom line. If the government dictates that number is 22 then you can sell a three houndred thousand suv's that get 12/16 mpg but sell ten thousand economy cars that get 28/36 and even-out. It is much more complicated than this with many more factors involved- but that's the skinny. BTW- at least in my area there is an 8 month waiting list for a Prius (Generation 2 is awesome!) and a year or more for the hybrid Highlander. Toyota rocks!

[M636C]

Modelcar,

I've never driven a Corvette. They were never built with the steering wheel on the correct side for local conditions, and although some were converted, it was a real work of art, because there was almost no vacant space in a Corvette, so you had to move the console and gauges to where the air conditioner had been....

I did get a ride in one that had been converted, and it seemed to be an excellent performer while not too sensitive to our often poor roads.

But they didn't rust! (not that that is a really big problem in Australia unless you live right on the coast). We had to put up with steel bodied Japanese copies, like the Toyota Supra, and they had to be imported specially. The GTO/Monaro was one of the first coupe's available in Australia for years, apart from the cars of Celica size and smaller.

The other thing about a population less than a tenth of the USA is a reduction in choice of lots of products, just due to the smaller market.

Peter

[Modelcar]

....Peter: And the 2005 Corvette will switch over from a 5.7L to a 6L engine for the normal regular model and it is said it will produce right around 400 hp and as I said before when the next model of the special Z06 comes on stream it will be in the neighborhood of 500 hp...!!!.....And They have taken some weight out of it so looks like it is going to be loaded for bear...! Quality has been upped and the interior has been upgraded as well....My personal experience with Corvettes goes way back when they were young and I was too...Had a black 1957 model.

[Anonymous]

We don't need to use our big cars so evyone ride AMTRAK

DOGGY

[Anonymous]

SUV's were created to abuse a legal loophole. They're classified as light trucks which have lower standards for safety, pollution, and fuel mileage. SUV's are cheaper to make than real cars but fetch a higher price (because they're bigger I guess). American automakers make all their profit in America from SUV's and light trucks so that's what they advertise.

SUV's are a throwback to pre WWII autos but they're the only way to go for the morbidly obease.

[M636C]

Now that I've calmed down about SUV handling, it appears from Modelcar's post that the AWD GTO/Monaro has the Corvette Z06 engine, so if they are offering that to the highway patrol, they must expect the AWD to take the beating (or maybe that's a quick way of finding out if it will last!

They built a 427 Cu In GTO for a 24 hr race here (one only) two years ago, and it won! It beat Porche GT4s and other really costly cars. Last year they ran two and they came in first and second! They were going to build it for the road but it ended up costing too much for the certification!

At the end of the second race, one of the drivers said that he was amazed at the fuel economy, because the 427 engine was never fully loaded. But I guess everything is relative - it wouldn't have been economical by many people's standards.

Peter

[Anonymous]

The only reason my car is as big as it is, is because my wife said I had to get a 4-door to carry the bambino in. I guess she didn't say I had to get a 260 hp Grand Prix GTP....

Dave

[M636C]

I'd like to back up AntonioFP45's comments about SUV handling. There was an accident just after Christmas (which is in summer here in Australia) involving a Toyota Land Cruiser, which is generally regarded as one of the best real 4x4 vehicles available in Australia.

A section of our most important highway Route 31, from Sydney to Melbourne, is still two lanes only, and this road carries really heavy truck traffic which can substantially delay traffic since there are some grades on that section of the road, although not very long climbs.

The Land Cruiser was carrying six people, two adults and four children in three rows of seats and their baggage was on a roof rack. The mother was driving.

Apparently she attempted to overtake a truck, not identified, but many of these are B-doubles with two trailers. The overtaking took longer than she expected, and she swerved back to the correct side, but the 4x4 rolled at about 75 mph.

The Toyota did not hit any other vehicle, but both adults and two children were killed in the rollover. I think the surviving children were in the centre row of seats.

I'm not trying to blame the manufacturer here! The Land Cruiser is one of the best vehicles of its type, and I've driven them around railroad yards when I was in the industry (and as Hi-Rails on track too - they take a long time to slow down on rails) and they are good vehicles.

But as Antonio said, they are trucks! You can't drive them like a sports sedan and expect them to handle like a 3-series BMW. In this case, the centre of gravity, already high, was raised by the baggage on the roof, and a manouvre that would have worked in an ordinary car ended up with two girls, 11 and 14 living with relatives, having lost the rest of their family.

This doesn't mean that using an SUV to drive the kids to school isn't safe. In a normal collision, the heavier vehicle is better off, and visibility is better. But in some emergencies, particularly where there is a risk of roll over, the standard 4x4 can be at a serious disadvantage.

In Australia, there are no standards for handling in those conditions that vehicles might be required to meet. Many people buy SUVs believing that they are safer in all conditions and this is not true. Fortunately most users will never discover their car's weaknesses, regardless of type.

But don't expect a truck to handle like a sports car, even in an emergency!

Peter

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

QUOTE: Originally posted by ozarkrailfan

Since we're on the topic of automobiles, is it possible to apply the principles of a diesel-electric locomotive on a smaller scale?

There have been a number of experiments with putting electric motors in each wheel, some dating to the very early days of the automobile. Don't recall exactly how they generated the electricity, though, and can't speak to why we aren't using the technology today. There must have been some drawbacks or we'd be seeing it used today.

There are at least two excellent hybrid cars at present, and more coming -- which partly solves one of the major problem of electric cars mentioned here: where does the power come from?

The problem with having the electric motor in the wheel is what is called unsprung weight: electric motors are heavy puppies, and anything that can be done to reduce the weight of the wheel helps handling and stability. Also, having the motor on the frame, with drive shafts, means you can use a lighter smaller motor -- and every pound counts. I would note that diesel electric engines, while the motors are mounted on the truck, have them partly sprung (suspended).

[oltmannd]

We don't need them. We just want them and can afford them, so why shouldn't we have them?

1. Gas is cheap here! In fact, it's cheaper now than it was in the 1960s (adjusted for inflation). Last tankful only cost me $1.59/gallon. So, driving a car with poor gas mileage is affordable.

2. We live sprawled-out, single family home on large lots, suburban lifestyles that favor big cars/trucks/SUVs (how else to get all that stuff home from Home Depot or all those kids to soccer practice?)

3. We tow boats and travel trailers all over the place. Can't tow a 4500 lb, 20 ft trailer with an Audi A6!

4. We prefer to have our highways subsidized by general tax revenue rather than the other way around, so driving is cheap and alternative are few. All things being equal, larger cars are more comfortable and flexible than smaller ones.

5. Many families own a car for each driver, so they may have an SUV or minivan plus a small sedan. Around here (Atlanta), many kids of driving age also have their own car, as well - usually an older sedan of some sort.

You won't a major shift to smaller cars in the US until gasoline rises to $2-$3/gallon.

[cpbloom]

"My ONLY criticism of many (not all) SUV drivers:

Many SUV drivers manuever SUVs like mid size cars which is a major mistake that can lead to tragic consequences if an emergency suddenly pops up. As a former part time Gray Line bus driver, I've witnessed this a number of times. These drivers need to recognize that an SUV is still a TRUCK! It needs to be treated and respected as such. "


That definitely needed to be said again, good point!

[AntonioFP45]

Saw an interesting story on the news a few weeks back.

A professional woman had purchased a brand new "Hummer". After driving it for a few weeks, she wanted the dealership to take it back! She explained that "she didn't know that it would drink so much gas!"

This response really blew me away considering that this person was an educated professional. Regardless of whether you want large, small, or both, consumers do need to perform research and get some basic commons sense edcucation instead of "Following Trends" or trying to present an artificial image.

As a tech ed. teacher, an SUV would be too expensive for me to maintain, but if a person wants to own one, GO FOR IT!

Re: Mileage?
My wife's 1999 4-cylinder Toyota Camry gets us from Tampa to Northern Georgia on 1/2 tank of gas! Our highway mileage is at about 30-32 mpg with luggage and 3 people in the car. That's driving at 75mph most of the way. Gas mileage for us is critical.

My ONLY criticism of many (not all) SUV drivers:

Many SUV drivers manuever SUVs like mid size cars which is a major mistake that can lead to tragic consequences if an emergency suddenly pops up. As a former part time Gray Line bus driver, I've witnessed this a number of times. These drivers need to recognize that an SUV is still a TRUCK! It needs to be treated and respected as such.

Peace, Amigos! [swg][tup]

[TH&B]

The big problem with electric cars is; where does the electricity come from? heavy batterys? gas or diesel with generator? extension cords? other new undeveloped clumsy sources? That's the problem because if you can get past that an electric motor needs no transmition and can be built extremely powerfull, an electric motor is quiet (needs no mufflers), reliable and you can bring it on to full pwer from a cold start.

[SALfan]

If you want to drive a tiny car, have fun, but don't criticize those of us who drive land yachts. As pointed out above, the situation here in the states is vastly different from that in Europe.

Just for info, my battleship-of-the-highway Mercury Grand Marquis will get 26 miles per gallon all day long cruising on the Interstate at 70 mph, carrying two large adults, a dog, and the 4000 pounds of crap that my wife needs on a two-week trip. It has plenty of power for merging onto the DC-area roads where everyone tries to drive 80 mph, and plenty of bulk to intimidate the punks and idiots who hop lanes like fleas on cocaine.

By contrast, my 14-year-old Isuzu pickup won't even go 70 mph without the engine screaming in protest, and it is so underpowered that merging into traffic going more than 40 mph is an exercise in terror. It only made 90 horsepower when new, and it definitely doesn't make that many now. I also need a can opener to get out of the thing. Oh, and by the way, it only gets a little over 20 miles per gallon cruising on the Interstate. Which do you think I prefer to drive?

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ozarkrailfan

Since we're on the topic of automobiles, is it possible to apply the principles of a diesel-electric locomotive on a smaller scale?

There have been a number of experiments with putting electric motors in each wheel, some dating to the very early days of the automobile. Don't recall exactly how they generated the electricity, though, and can't speak to why we aren't using the technology today. There must have been some drawbacks or we'd be seeing it used today.

[Supermicha]

Where did you hear that we in germany hav small roads? It sounds like you think our roads are just big enough for two bugs beneath. Thats not correct. On nearly every street you have a minimum space for two big trucks side by side, thats enough also for two SUV´s. Yes, germany is a small country if compared with the usa. But i have also 20 kilometer to work every day. And not over land, no, 20 kilometers thru the city, yes, we also have such big citys. [:D]

I find this thread very intersting, it shows me one more time how different europeans and americans are in thinking and living. Funny thing!

[ozarkrailfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wisser

Oh yea, And out here in the west there are plenty of places where speed limit is determined by how bold you are / how fast your car will go. Of course the speed limit by law is 75 MPH in Nevada and 70 in California, but the area is so vast in some places that the chances of seeing another car are slim ,and chances it's a cop are almost none.
As for myself I can't stand small cars. Just this morning I went on a 250mile trip with my dad in his Ford Ranger and I'm still sore from being cooped up. Give me a full size car / truck any day. And I don't care if I have to pay a few dollars more in gas to be comfortable.

I stand 6 foot 5 inches and I've sat more comfortably behind the wheel of a Toyota Corolla than a Ford Crown Victoria. Larger size doesn't always mean more room.
As for the topic question, I currently live a few miles down a rocky dirt road. Having a powerful 4wd vehicle unfortunately at times is essential.
Since we're on the topic of automobiles, is it possible to apply the principles of a diesel-electric locomotive on a smaller scale?

[Modelcar]

....LT-1 power is a 350 ci size [5.7L] @ 350 hp.....and the current Z06 [Corvette] engine of same size is rated at 405 hp...! This figure will change in the next version of Z06 Corvette as it is said to be coming with 3-valve heads and 6L in size and probably the horsepower to be around 500..!!!

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar



Little cars do not hold up to the vast expanses of our country. There are literally thousands of miles of roads that are rough and need a durable vehicle.

Sorry but that aurgument is just BS to me, I've had small cars all my life, a bug that i put 100,000 miles onto a car that had 60,000 miles driving all over california hwys backroads, dirtroads & desert trails, it held up fine. A Honda Civic that I drove 160,000 miles, and the BEST car I ever had was a Suzuki Samurai, I could take that little car ANYWHERE. dirt, trails, highways, you name it it went. For California mtns and deserts to No Cal woods to Texas hellonearth heat, eastern Mexico to baja California. So your arguement that small cars dont hold up doenst hold water with me. SOME small cars ARE crap i will agree there before someone replies to tell me about their faboulous Yugo. (if you bought a Yugo, THATS YOUR FAULT, dont vent on me). Peugot, FIAT, and a slew of Euro car dealers were sent packing due to the extremes of the US. But there are alot of good small cars out there. Toyota, Nissan, Suburu, etc.

I beleive it has more to do with wanting a big padded cushion under our collective big fat asses that has more to due with the big car craze right now. People will buy what they think they can afford , so after the fat 90's when gas was cheap and the economy was strong, peopl got use to the Luxo-mobiles and now dont want to go back to the smaller mid-size cars until they are literally screaming at the gas pump. Prices are going higher this summer, so we'll see if it looks bad i might get a Scion Xb breadvan or a smaller Nissan Frontier, we'll see.

BTW drive what ever you want, like what you drive...but one thing...just dont female dog at me at the pump about how unfair it is that your spending all your money filling that Hummer or that Sloburban, I have NO SYMPATHY, dont like it, trade it in get a smaller car but just SHUT UP, can you tell i'm getting tired of hearing this at the pump?

[M636C]

Modelcar,

The AWD GTO/Monaro prototype had 300kW badges, which I just calculated as 402HP, probably a rating like DIN, but using real horses of 746kw each not the smaller German 736kW horses. I agree that this AWD transmission might find it difficult with high power engines. What is the LT-1 power quoted as?

At the moment, the AWD system is only available with V8 engines (with about 200kW =268HP standard) because the 3.8 doesn't provide clearance for the front drive cross shaft. The new OHC V6 will allow this, and will be available with AWD, later this year, I think.

Nobody seems to have tried the AWD in the V8 racing sedans we have here, although with the sort of money GM and Ford throw at that, we could expect that they might build one to last a race.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Yeah but it still ain't as much torque as an LT-1!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

[Modelcar]

...You know they did have such a system some years ago in the form of the Cyclone and the GMC S-15 pickup but with a turbo and V6 but it really put out the performance and got it on the ground too.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....One more thing...I just was having 2nd thoughts of the AWD system I mentioned because it probably won't handle the torque of the LT-1 engine. [8D]

No! it would twist the guts out of the entire power train. But I want to watch if you decide to try.[8D]

P.S. I want a new Chevy SSR or an Avalanche [:D]

[Train Guy 3]

I don't like riding around in 500 pounds of plastic, it scares the crap out of me. I like my 67 Chevy pick-up... steal all the way around, so if something goes wrong i stay safe. I also like good old American Muscle, cause back roads are good dragstrips.