Off Topic - Why do americans need such big cars???

[Modelcar]

....One more thing...I just was having 2nd thoughts of the AWD system I mentioned because it probably won't handle the torque of the LT-1 engine. [8D]

[Modelcar]

Peter:
Yes, I'm aware of the El Camino......and it's Corvette LT-1 engine...and I wonder why the AWD system that GM has now [full time system], couldn't be installed in that vehicle. That sure would help the traction issue and it is virtually seamless now from what I understand. And by the way our Octane rating here for unleaded Regular is 87 and seems to do the job rather well. Of course some higher performance engines requiire the higher OT number which is available.

[M636C]

Modelcar,

The GTO/Monaro was sold here with the supercharged 3.8 litre, but our (Australian)octane ratings are such that the supercharged engine needs premium unleaded fuel, maybe 10 cents per litre more, or the ignition and knock sensors derate the supercharged engine back to pretty much the standard engine performance.

That option was dropped late last year. They keep promising an improvement in our octane ratings, so that European cars can run on standard unleaded. There is a sort of mini-pickup, a Proton "Jumbuck" built in Malaysia, based on Mitsubishi Lancer/Mirage components, but that has to use premium fuel here! That's hardly an exotic car!

One thing that has been discussed here is that the Commodore car based pickup (we call them "utilities" or "utes") might be sold in the USA reviving the Chevrolet "El Camino" name. That can be optioned with most of the GTO features at about half the price, (and includes the independent rear suspension), and once you've worked out what you can put in the tray to give some adhesion (bag of sand, maybe?) you can do some frightening things in the V8 version of that while still being able to claim that you have a "practical" vehicle. The 4x4 version is yet to appear.

Maybe I should look at picking up a used supercharged Monaro, and wait for the improved octane ratings?

But quite a few years ago, I was working for the Federal Government when unleaded gasoline was introduced to Australia. At that stage, it appeared that US pollution regulations were stricter than those in Europe, particularly those in California. While US fuel pricing has encouraged larger vehicles, the emissions per litre of fuel used are probably no worse than in Europe. The narrower streets in the European cities encourage smaller cars, and the shorter distances allow more highly stressed engines. But nobody can say that a Mercedes AMG E55 with five hundred horsepower is respectful of the environment or more responsible in any way than a Corvette, for example.

Peter

[jchnhtfd]

What a fascinating variety of answers and comments -- supermicha, you really hit one! I don't see too many responses from my Canadian cousins -- but there isn't all that much difference, really (no surprise there, eh?). I don't think I really have time to summarize it all (although there are some posts which can be left out rather easily... since they contain no information, just somewhat derogatory commentary). Someone did mention what happened to the station wagon? Got regulated out of existence by some do-gooders who got in power. It was a very good compromise for a large family (I've owned two over the years; a Buick Special which was really fun, and an Estate Wagon which had all the maneouvrability of an aircraft carrier, but was real handy for what I do). Several people, myself included, though, have hit on one theme which is important: a lot of us really do need a big tough vehicle at least part of the time. This is simply not true in Europe or the Orient (although it is in Australia). It's got to run, and run right, and take a h___ of a beating, and it can't be in the shop. Highly stressed engines are lovely pieces of machinery, but what do you do with one when you are halfway between here and there, and halfway is 100 miles from the nearest gas station, never mind repair shop where they speak little car, and the thing breaks down? Mudchicken mentioned this too. Yeah, our Chevy, Ford, and Dodge trucks are big. Yeah, they're heavy. Yeah, they're overbuilt. Yeah, they run forever on a regular oil change and a little love.

I'm sorry someone mentioned the Kyoto protocols. Whether we all agree or not (and we aren't going to), it is difficult for me at least to see a significant cost/benefit ratio for any developed country, and they really freeze out the third world. They sure sound good (before someone gets really anxious, and not to blow my own horn, but I wrote one of the first computer models which showed the seriousness of global warming, 20 years ago; it's still in use, by CSIRO -- and I am genuinely worried about it) and they make you feel all warm and fuzzy, though.

Anyway... fun topic. Now if someone will a) show me how I can do what I need to do with a vehicle with a little car which will run 500,000 miles without aircraft style maintenance, which I can't afford and b) will tell me how to afford to buy one, I'll think about dropping my 454 cu.in. K2500. Not until!

[Modelcar]

M636C...Good report on your country's autos........and I have knowledge on some of what you related. I believe the GTO will be a successful model reestablished in this country. Our Auto mag's already have presented road tests with it and it gets a pretty good write up...On the Commodore, we've had some rumors of maby the next GM effort might be an Impala SS from that model as the GTO was created from the Monaro. As it is now we have a front driver for the Impala SS and using the 3800 V6 supercharged to produce 240 hp. And that model even gets good EPA mileage rating....and again I suppose, if one keeps his foot out of it at least part of the time.
Sounds like your fuel is really on the expensive side....Right now here in our area the fuel is $1.77 per gal.....

[M636C]

Modelcar,

A delayed response to your questions about Australian GM cars. (It's all about when we have to sleep) . The 3.8 litre is pretty good really, and driven carefully will give about 30 miles per gallon (although we (used to) use British Gallons that are bigger than American gallons. That gives about 9 litres per hundred kilometres in the measures we use now.

Fuel costs less than in Germany but more than in the USA (it is approaching one Australian Dollar (US$0.75) per litre). It was worse earlier, but our exchange rate improved and the price (very gradually) fell (a little).

Our Federal Government had a tax on fuel based on Cost of Living increases, which took into account fuel cost rises. You don't need to be an economist to realise that this ensured a rising fuel price, but the tax adjustment was stopped (just before the last elections - what a surprise!) About two thirds of the fuel price here is tax.

So for a while, the second most popular car in the country was the Hyundai Accent, which is a small and basic 1.5 litre car. This stopped when some wheels fell off and the company refused to recall the cars for checking, and public lost confidence in a big way.

GM are building the car on which the GTO is based in a very wide range of bodies and in two and four wheel drive. There is a four wheel drive GTO prototype which has been tested as a police pursuit car (looks and sounds like good fun to me). The basic type is called "Commodore" after one of the earlier Opel cars it was based on, and the GTO is called "Monaro" here, after some mountains in the South East. There are pickups with two and four doors and two and four wheel drive, and high clearance 4x4 station wagons.

My own car, which is nine years old now, is a basic four door sedan, but it has the independent rear suspension and a limited slip differential. It has only required tyres, a headlight bulb and an alternator replaced in that time, and has run about 120 000 miles. On a sealed road, you can enter a curve at any speed you like and can expect to come out the other side, just scared to the extent you went in too fast!

The GTO was tested in England by the BBC TV program "Top Gear" and they did quite terrifying things to the car, and ended up by beating a Jaguar XK8 on a drag strip.

The only down side for me is a lack of headroom (but I'm quite tall 6'5") but if I dump the electrically adjusted seat for a manual one, that's OK. If you can find a GTO, take a test drive. We are all very proud of that car.

And Ford have had to build really good cars to compete. Until last year, GM were outselling Ford two to one in that market sector, but the new car (still called a "Falcon") has an excellent 4 litre DOHC inline 6 (or a special 5.6 litre quad cam V8 based on the US 4.6 litre) and a new independent rear suspension. If you get a chance to drive the turbocharged 6 cylinder Falcon, try it! (But Ford aren't exporting yet, they are still trying to meet demand here)

Peter

[BaltACD]

The American Ethic.....

If a little is good.....MORE is BETTER!

with its corrolary thought

BECAUSE WE CAN!

[Modelcar]

Supermicha....Koto protocols, irrelevant.....I'm talking about our omission controls on our passenger cars...and even with them..big blocks and small multi-cam units we get performance from our engines now and decent fuel economies...What else do you want.

[dcgrosvold]

Wow! What a wild collection of opinions! Some good.. Some bad ('Mericans are stoopid...) Yeah, well. morons always have to mouth off.

Why do earopeans always stereotype Americans as the morons they see on Hollywood's kalidescope?

Supermicha -- how far is it across Germany? I mean - from end to end or top to bottom?

Have you ever traveled 2500 miles towing 4 horses, tack, and equipment? I have both - a small car - well relatively (I'm 6'1", 250 lbs,) that I drive to work (incidentally work's a 204-mile round trip commute every day.)

I have a truck - a Ford F250 6.3L V10 for pulling horse trailers and hauling feed, hay, water, plywood (yeah - a model railroad,) fence posts, and whatever else is required to care for livestock, and land.

No - I'm not a rancher by trade - it takes too much land and not enough return any more - that's where the big corporations can operate. I'm a network engineer - specializing in 802.11 wireless devices - BUT I also have a small ranch because I love the lifestyle - and my family loves it. So I drive a long ways every day to make a living to provide that which my family loves. Big cars? We just have what we need.

If I lived in Europe, I don't imagine I would have to travel more than 5 minutes to get to work, the market, etc. even if I did have livestock. In fact, I'd probably have to lead my little cart into town with a couple of oxen to get my feed, and haul the water up from a little well with a bucket, right? Or is that stereotyping too?

[:D]

-- Dave

[Anonymous]

my car:

well, i am almost always behind the wheel of a Peterbuilt 387 with a 475 Cat engine and an Eaton 10 speed tranny, pulling a 53 foot refrigerated trailer. when you have things like that wandering the interstates, most people want bigger cars and SUV's to make them feel safer, even tho there is not really any reason for it. 80% of all fatal car/18 wheeler accidents are the fault of the car.


but when i am at home i drive a Dodge ram pickup truck. why you may ask? because it is pretty hard to stuff a bunch of 12 foot surf fishing rods, coolers, and other fishing gear in a mazda or toyota compact car[:D]

and how am i gonna haul all the 4x8 sheets of plywood i need for my model railroad if i didnt have my long bed pickup?


SHORT BED PICKUPS SUCK!!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 440cuin

Ya man, a big old Oldsmobile!
Actualy I find the 383 is fairly good on gas and some "seem" as strong as the 440. The Buick 455 puts you back in the seat too, but it's also bad on gas, but reliable. My buddy had a 72 Cutlas with a 350, it was mint condition, but you know what? it was uncomfortable to sit in even though it is not a tiny car, I raced against him with my BIG BLACK RUSTY 71 IMPERIAL WITH 440 and I would blow him away every time from start or on the highway with him and his cute sister in his car, I was laughing "gutless cutless", But how can 350 cubic inches be so weak? And what's the deal with viynal roof? what crap. And automatic transmitions, even today's newer vehicles with 4wd, always pushing for automatic, sure standards exist, but always hard to come by on American cars.
What I NEED is a 440 with an A833 4-speed!! But seriously some American cars are fun, but most are kind of crappy, even newer vehicles, poor build quality, bad handeling, cheesy details, and big and clumsy, compared to the more "refined and tighter" import cars.

Yea I totally agree that the newer american stuff is crappy. I definatly dislike cars made in the 80's for a multitude of reasons. The 90's were not much better. Although there seems to be some improvements these days, only time will tell.
And about automatics, I hate em. I'll take a manual any day for several reasons. The main one being reliability. I worked in a transmission shop for a while. I learned quite a bit about automatic trannys doing rebuilds, But not manuals. Why? because they don't break down. Shure the clutches wear out, thats to be expected, but a gearbox failure is rare. To give you an idea of what I mean, for every 1000 automatics that came through that shop there would be 1 or 2 manuals. Speaks volumes.

[Anonymous]

Ill tell you why we like big cars.

Little cars do not hold up to the vast expanses of our country. There are literally thousands of miles of roads that are rough and need a durable vehicle.

In Speed Limit question, the majority of our drivers are not trained to your exacting German standards. No offense to our American Driver but half may be unfit for high speed and skid recovery due to the fact that we do not train for this.

Drivers class in our schools run for several weeks and we gain a license at completion. It is no where near the professionalism of your German Schools.

I speak as a Professional Driver with 16 years in a Heavy Commercial Vehicle and having seen basically every thing there is.

I still take joy in fast cars but need room to run em and not necessarily the Law either. =)

Enjoy!

[Anonymous]

Well Micha, I have a big GMC Surburban with a 7 liter V-8 and I'm hating life right now with gas prices as high as they are now. It only gets 9 mpg.

[CG9602]

Here's my take on why some USAmericans enjoy their big cars: In Europe, and in several other parts of the world (most other places, as a matter of fact) the elected representatives of the local citizenry tax the living daylights out of the gas tax. There are certain countries the governemtns of which have decided that it isn't in their national interest to be so heavily depenedent upon natural resources that come from unstable areas that are riddled with religious strife. Some countries also can't afford to or are unwilling to prop up regiemes that oppress their own citizens in the name of cheap oil. Most other countries gas prices are nowhere near as cheap as it is here in the USA. For example:
(gas price - $ per gallon in 2003)

Hong Kong 5.34
London, England 4.55
Paris, France 4.41
Amsterdam, Netherlands 4.38
Seoul, S. Korea 4.35
Copenhagen, Denmark 4.24
Tokyo, Japan 4.20
Milan, Italy 4.14
Oslo, Norway 4.13
Frankfurt, Germany 4.00

Yes, those are in US $.

The vehicle is as much about lifestyle as it is about just getting around. If folks were just concerned about getting around, we would all be driving Prisms ( I have one of these. Very low maintenance, great MPG. Also I have no problem driving in it, and I'm over 6 ft tall).

One more note: Auto makers have been muti-national corporations for over a decade now, there is no such thing as a "Japanese" or "German" or " American" (read: Canadian or Mexican) car anymore, especially when Hondas and Mitsubishi have been making them in the US for 15 years or more. Same with the BMWs: BMW has an assembly plant in the Carolinas. For all of these companies, the parts come from all over the world. One of the largest Toyota plants is located in (guess where) Louisville KY, and many Nissans are assembled in CA.

Back to the original question: Do USAmericans "need" big cars? In Europe, many of the roads and cities were originally built when one had no other choice to get around other than walking or riding horseback. The Streets and buildings didn't need to be that wide. The end result is that unless you want to do a lot of expensive demolition and re-construction, you have to have smaller cars just to get around in those side streets. The typical SUV just will not manuver in such tight circumstances. Then there is alos the super high gas prices ( and fuel taxes) on top of that. You also have the US cultural concept of personal space. Each person's idea of personal space is more larger than in other countries/cultures. Americans are just accustomed to having more personal space compared to other countries and cultures.

There is also the (Salient, IMO) statement that many Americans, including the women, are tryng to make up for some ( how shall I put this politely?) shortcomings and inadequacies.

Some Americans don't need enormous beached whales, its just that the lifestyle that we desire and are led to enjoy makes such things almost mandatory.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

One of the BEST cars I ever owned I purchased used. It was a 1978 Delta 88 Royale. It had over 100,000 miles on it when I got it. I put another 100,000 on it. I never needed any major rework on the engine. I sold the car for one dollar to someone who badly needed a car but couldn't afford to buy anything.

It makes me sad that you can no longer buy a nice large Olds anymore. They were excellent cars. I loved mine to death. I am not a Pontiac fan and my family traditionally has a ton of trouble with Chevys. I also don't care much for Buicks. So GM's future as far as this driver is concerned doesn't look good. Give me a Lincoln over a Caddy anyday. [;)] [:D]

I still drive a 1990 Delta 88, my mom bought it 2nd hand with about 75 000KM on it, then gave it to me, it's now got about 270 000KM on it.

I tell you it's gotta be the smoothest ride I've ever had, it feels like the thing just glides over the pavement, you really feel like you're floating when you get out on the highway.

Regular oil changes, and I've yet to have any major problems with it (knock on wood).

My dad recently bough one of those small trackers, and I tell you that thing has nothing on the olds......it seems like you can really glide a lot on the oldsmobile (take the foot off the petal and still be moving), and save on fuel, yet when you take your foot off the gas in that tracker the thing slows down immediately, no momentum play.

My goal is a million KMs........

[vsmith]

I was shocked when I read the fuel requirements and dam near cussed out the salesperson! Turns out EVERY BMW requires super, they've never heard of regular unleaded in Bavaria i guess.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Once the renovation stuff is done I plan to trade in for a smaller fuel efficient car, I would like a MiniCooper but some true idiot at BMWs brain trust decided it would be a great idea if the mini run on super unleaded which is 40% more expensive. i'd like to smack that idiot upside the head. We aslo have a Toyota MR2 that we used to carpool to work and I have a '71 Honda N600 minicar that I'm going to restore. If I hit the lotto, I'll have a stable of mini cars, MG Midget, Fiat 500, AC Mini, BMW Isetta, All would be there.[8D]

And we were just looking at Mini's online last night. Going to put one in the back of the Suburban..like a Captains Gig. We can anchor the Suburban out in far parking lot and drive the Mini in close to the door at the mall. [:)]

My 4Runner gets awful mileage and commuting 70 miles a day........ Didn't know about the high test..kinda defeats the cost benefit analysis I was feeding my wife.....

Like most folks we could probably make do with a smaller car...talking about the Suburban..but why make do..it fits our lifestyle and allows us the freedom to do what we want. Now that is worth going and beating up third world countries for oil.

[Anonymous]

One of the BEST cars I ever owned I purchased used. It was a 1978 Delta 88 Royale. It had over 100,000 miles on it when I got it. I put another 100,000 on it. I never needed any major rework on the engine. I sold the car for one dollar to someone who badly needed a car but couldn't afford to buy anything.

It makes me sad that you can no longer buy a nice large Olds anymore. They were excellent cars. I loved mine to death. I am not a Pontiac fan and my family traditionally has a ton of trouble with Chevys. I also don't care much for Buicks. So GM's future as far as this driver is concerned doesn't look good. Give me a Lincoln over a Caddy anyday. [;)] [:D]

[vsmith]

The answer's are simple.

American's are stupid and have small slacker's.

There Stupid. Otherwise how do you explain all the Ford Excrements and Exploders clogging the freeways here in LA with only one person in them, The idiots driving 1/4 a block to the store instead of walking to buy a 6-pack of Spudwieser ( the beer that made Idaho famous). How else do you explain people who buy a giant 9mpg Chevy Sloburban and then female dog about how much it costs to fill it at the pump (i have experienced this)

They have small slacker's. Otherwise how do you explain the idiots who buy a truck that already almost 7 feet high then put a lift kit and tractor tires onto it to make it 11 feet tall, scraping overpasses and falling over at the sightest curves.

Americans are stupid and have small wankers, my final proof positive of this...
how else do you explain the popularity of the Hummer monster cars?

People in this country will not change until prices hit $5 a gallon. But whats one of the most populer new cars out here? The new Hybrids by Toyota and Honda! so there is hope. American cars have been crap since 1972! Theyve gotten slightly less crappier in 90's but are still inferior to the Japanese cars, But I feel they are getting better that the Euro cars.

My first car was a VW bug that i put about 100,000 miles onto a car that already had 60,000 miles. I had a '71 Nova hand me down in college after the bug finally died , I hated it, 10 mpg, uncomfortable and ugly interior. Next was a Honda Civic, that I put 140,000 onto, Then I got a Suzuki Samurai that was the best car i ever had, 10 years 160,000 miles ranged from No Cal east to Texas and eastern Mexico and down to Baja Ca. I'm 6-1 250lbs and I fit fine in it. I now have a V6 Nissan Frontier Crewcab pickup because I needed a sedan and a pickup to carry construction materials, it get 20mpg which is considered very good for a truck but i'm not happy with the milage I would have prefered a 4banger but it wasnt offered in the crewcab version. I almost got a Scion Xb but its limited suspension nixed it. Once the renovation stuff is done I plan to trade in for a smaller fuel efficient car, I would like a MiniCooper but some true idiot at BMWs brain trust decided it would be a great idea if the mini run on super unleaded which is 40% more expensive. i'd like to smack that idiot upside the head. We aslo have a Toyota MR2 that we used to carpool to work and I have a '71 Honda N600 minicar that I'm going to restore. If I hit the lotto, I'll have a stable of mini cars, MG Midget, Fiat 500, AC Mini, BMW Isetta, All would be there.[8D]

[Anonymous]

We drive an '85 Lincoln Towncar. The thing's huge and I love it! We used to drive a green Towncar from '88 before that, but it got wrecked in an accident. Before that we had a blue Towncar (not sure what year) that we sold when I was like 5 years old. We also have a '99 Ford F-150, which is also quite large. My dad's always had 2 Ford trucks-an automatic for summer and a standard for winter. But now that he's got this one (just traded it in for the standard a few months ago), we're going to have only one truck. I've always loved big cars, I guess probably because I always grew up with big cars. To me a car should have some power and size to it. My mom says that I shouldn't get a big car because it's not practical for city driving when I go to university, but I still want one anyway. It's kind of more of an image thing more so than practicality for me.

[TH&B]

Modelcar; ya but only in California wich is the strictest in the US, a California engine is usualy different then the rest, Cal is a world of its own. Much of the country now has emision teasting but the factory specs are even tougher in Europe.
Another crappy example is the Jeep Cherokees! I hear they are even popular in Europe as American cars go, but it's a top heavy, crowded, gas guzzeling poor quality car. I drive one at work and I drove my buddies and they were both crap. If you wanna go off road, remember the vw bug, set it up like a dune buggy and go. Look at the way small Imports drive in the ralies, big clumsy hi horse power American 4x4's can't keep up with that. Some suped-turbo 4 bangers have the hp of a nascar engine. Like I said though, I love the old 440 (wich is an historic engine anyways) but I know better that European and Japanese vehicles are much better in almost every way in todays cars.......
technicaly that is.

[Supermicha]

QUOTE: They have honed them to the point we can now get high performance out of our power plants and still pass omission regs.

If that is real, why did the USA quits the Kyoto protocolls? [:0]

[Modelcar]

Supermica....We do have strict pollution regulations that pertain to our vehicles...since about 1968 we've been using various systems on our engines to counteract unwanted pollutants.....They have honed them to the point we can now get high performance out of our power plants and still pass omission regs.

[Modelcar]

M636C....It really seems strange to hear of a car with a 3.8L Buick engine being a gas hog....That engine in this country is used in many applications and has been around since about 1961 has a great reputation for being great on low fuel consumption.
We here in the states have just started to get a great variant of one of your GM cars to make our GTO once again...and with the Corvette great LT-1 in it....and I understand your country makes several rear wheel drive vehicles with a version of that power plant for use in your country.
Years ago we used to acquire different Aussie cars to work with here at my Co. in our engineering lab for power train work...Falcon, and another with a Cossworth turbo 4 in it....forgot the name now....related to Mercury, etc....
I agree with 440ci that large American cars used to be poor handlers...but now one can choose what ever kind of vehicle is required....IT IS available here to do what you want to do with it....Pickup trucks too....But not all made here.

[Supermicha]

Oh, i startet a hot discussion i think. You all are right. Big Cars are cool. If i had the money, i also would buy an Ford F150 or something else. But with our high gas prices here, its nearly impossible to drive a car with such a big engine.

The other problem are the laws. We have very strong pollution laws for cars here, so with a big engine you must pay much more.
So with my little 75 hp car (its a Van, so i have also enough space), i can save money and the nature, because it makes a low pollution. I don´t think that some of you with an 5.2 litre engine can say that!
Please allow me to be critical, but i think you can be lucky that your government has so "easy" traffic and pollution laws! Or not?

Somebody said, a big car is safer. Yes, sometimes. But when i have a crash with 120 mph, it never minds as you are in a big or small car!

From my own experience i know, that the driver get more aggressive when driving a big and not a small car!

Micha

[daveklepper]

Didn't see any mention of hybrids. Maybe Stokerk's new Fird might be one? Dave

[greyhounds]

I guess it all boils down to the fact that we obtain the vehicles that best fit our individual life styles and incomes. It's called Freedom. Rent 'em, own 'em, restore 'em. They're what we choose for ourselves.

Ken Strawbridge

[TH&B]

Ya man, a big old Oldsmobile!
Actualy I find the 383 is fairly good on gas and some "seem" as strong as the 440. The Buick 455 puts you back in the seat too, but it's also bad on gas, but reliable. My buddy had a 72 Cutlas with a 350, it was mint condition, but you know what? it was uncomfortable to sit in even though it is not a tiny car, I raced against him with my BIG BLACK RUSTY 71 IMPERIAL WITH 440 and I would blow him away every time from start or on the highway with him and his cute sister in his car, I was laughing "gutless cutless", But how can 350 cubic inches be so weak? And what's the deal with viynal roof? what crap. And automatic transmitions, even today's newer vehicles with 4wd, always pushing for automatic, sure standards exist, but always hard to come by on American cars.
What I NEED is a 440 with an A833 4-speed!! But seriously some American cars are fun, but most are kind of crappy, even newer vehicles, poor build quality, bad handeling, cheesy details, and big and clumsy, compared to the more "refined and tighter" import cars.

[Anonymous]

440cuin , I'm glad to hear that you love em'. I know most are real gas hogs. But don't ya love being sucked back in the seat when your right foot hits the floor ? I know I do.
But not all big blocks are big pigs. i know most of you wont belive this, but I had a 79 Olds 98 with a 403 that had headers an flowmasters that could get 35 MPG. That is when I kept my foot out of the throttle. The beauty of it was the other end, I could get that 5800Lb. pig to do 140 MPH if I wanted to. The great thing was it was up to me wheather I wanted mileage or speed. A lot depends on how you drive.

[dharmon]

Soccer mom in our house used to have to drive 1/4 mile of gravel road in Maine winters..4wd...manditory...any vehicle that weighs 6300 lbs has to be able to extract itself......................I've used 4wd on vehicles more than most...and not in recreation.....well okay a little...