Off Topic - Why do americans need such big cars???

[ozarkrailfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jchnhtfd

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

QUOTE: Originally posted by ozarkrailfan

Since we're on the topic of automobiles, is it possible to apply the principles of a diesel-electric locomotive on a smaller scale?

There have been a number of experiments with putting electric motors in each wheel, some dating to the very early days of the automobile. Don't recall exactly how they generated the electricity, though, and can't speak to why we aren't using the technology today. There must have been some drawbacks or we'd be seeing it used today.

There are at least two excellent hybrid cars at present, and more coming -- which partly solves one of the major problem of electric cars mentioned here: where does the power come from?

The problem with having the electric motor in the wheel is what is called unsprung weight: electric motors are heavy puppies, and anything that can be done to reduce the weight of the wheel helps handling and stability. Also, having the motor on the frame, with drive shafts, means you can use a lighter smaller motor -- and every pound counts. I would note that diesel electric engines, while the motors are mounted on the truck, have them partly sprung (suspended).

Thanks for the input. Guess I'll just have to re-think my plans for a biodiesel-electric hybrid suv.

[ozarkrailfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz


My point is one that I did not see mentioned--that driving slower will drastically increase your mpg. And before you go off about haw you're so busy and can't afford to slow down, consider: at highway speeds, on average, each mph you go increases your fuel consumption about one percent. So at 70mph, you will get 5% less mpg. At 55mph, you will get 20% better mileage. (and at 0 mph you will get infinite mpg) :-)

That last part unfortunately isn't true for the average automobile. Unless you have an electric or hybrid, your car is burning gas whenever your engine is running.
Personally I don't think it's a point worth arguing over. Those who enjoy gas-guzzling roadhogs and can afford to own and operate them will probably do so. But those who make it a habit to conserve fuel however possible will definitely have the last laugh.

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

A number of responses here indicate very good reasons to own a larger vehicle. But if the reason is to haul a 4x8 sheet once a year, or the rare occasion that a need to haul arises (moving, buying a refrigerator, etc), one could rent a pickup truck for about $25/day.

IMHO, many people drive big due to feelings of inadequacy or impotence. The big, macho look is important to some people. And some like to feel intimidating to others on the road. Consider the popularity of that race car driver that died last year. He was known as the "Intimidator" and was very popular. I think that says something about some people's attitude.

And certainly, Mr & Mrs soccerparent do not need such a massive landbruiser.

Sure, what you say is true, but if people want one and can afford one, then why shouldn't they have one? Is that more frivelous than driving several hundred miles a month in pursuit of a hobby such as railfanning or any other frivelous thing we do with our discretionary income - even if it is making up for some inadequacy?

Good point.

[wallyworld]

Another can to kick is the transformation of communities throughout this country into an absurd level of reliance on the automobile. When I was growing up in the 1950”s my typical Midwestern family would walk up to Main Street and shop, see a movie, have a hamburger, etc. Now I have to drive five miles to the corporate mega-box wonder store off the perennially clogged interstate to shop and get in the car and repeat this routine another several miles to do something else. Ah, the wonders of so called Urban Planning seemingly stuck in arrested development back in 1960.. If gas was unavailable tomorrow, I would be up the creek without a paddle. I live near a major city where the expressway is in reality, a parking lot for us to burn gas while going nowhere. The other day I was stuck in traffic and a pedestrian beat me to my destination. I have been tailgated by many an SUV whose driver acted as though it was an urban combat vehicle designed to individually mow over anyone stupid enough to drive at the legal speed limit. I went back to my hometown recently after several decades had passed and it was for all purposes, not even a pale shadow of what it had been. All commerce had moved out to an outer belt of sprawl whose only access was the automobile. And so it goes.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

A number of responses here indicate very good reasons to own a larger vehicle. But if the reason is to haul a 4x8 sheet once a year, or the rare occasion that a need to haul arises (moving, buying a refrigerator, etc), one could rent a pickup truck for about $25/day.

IMHO, many people drive big due to feelings of inadequacy or impotence. The big, macho look is important to some people. And some like to feel intimidating to others on the road. Consider the popularity of that race car driver that died last year. He was known as the "Intimidator" and was very popular. I think that says something about some people's attitude.

And certainly, Mr & Mrs soccerparent do not need such a massive landbruiser.

Sure, what you say is true, but if people want one and can afford one, then why shouldn't they have one? Is that more frivelous than driving several hundred miles a month in pursuit of a hobby such as railfanning or any other frivelous thing we do with our discretionary income - even if it is making up for some inadequacy?

[Modelcar]

...Time flies....He [Earnhardt], died in Feb. 2001..! But he really was a winner over time.

[zardoz]

A number of responses here indicate very good reasons to own a larger vehicle. But if the reason is to haul a 4x8 sheet once a year, or the rare occasion that a need to haul arises (moving, buying a refrigerator, etc), one could rent a pickup truck for about $25/day.

IMHO, many people drive big due to feelings of inadequacy or impotence. The big, macho look is important to some people. And some like to feel intimidating to others on the road. Consider the popularity of that race car driver that died last year. He was known as the "Intimidator" and was very popular. I think that says something about some people's attitude.

And certainly, Mr & Mrs soccerparent do not need such a massive landbruiser.

[Train Guy 3]

It would be great to go for some little 4 cyclinder vehicle but they can get the job done that i need done. They might be great to ride around on but it when it comes to getting work done they cant last. A 800 pound truck vs. a 3/4 ton truck, which do you think can work the hardest?

[vsmith]

Hey Zardoz, and Antonio!

congrates on that 3rd star, it looks good!
[bday][bow][bday][bow][bday]

[zardoz]

A point was made somewhere in the previous six pages about vehicle profiles relating to wind resistance/drag, and how it increases exponentially the faster you go.

My point is one that I did not see mentioned--that driving slower will drastically increase your mpg. And before you go off about haw you're so busy and can't afford to slow down, consider: at highway speeds, on average, each mph you go increases your fuel consumption about one percent. So at 70mph, you will get 5% less mpg. At 55mph, you will get 20% better mileage. (and at 0 mph you will get infinite mpg) :-)

Sure, the trip takes longer, but how much? I commute 45 miles each way to work. If I drive 70mph, it takes me about 40 minutes. If I drive 60, it takes me 45 minutes. 5 minutes longer, but 15% better mileage. That adds up quickly at $2/gallon.

Of course, the problem with going slower, especially in daytime traffic, you really mess up the traffic flow for everyone else. So usually I go "normal" speeds until I can get behind a slower truck (JB Hunt are good ones to follow--very professional drivers).

BTW, I have notice a relationship between the price of gas and the number of cars going slower.

[AntonioFP45]

I admit that up until the 1990s, I was a GM V-8 nut. I'm greatful that my mentor at the transit agency that I used to work at suggested to me that I should try 4 Cylinder Japanese vehicles. Hesitantly I bought Toyotas and I've never look back! My wife suggested two years ago that we get an SUV as our income had increased. Looking now at gas pump prices, I'm so glad that we decided to stick with and payoff our 4 cylinder Camry and Tacoma! And as for merging onto traffic at speed, they're not Trans Ams but they will burn rubber!

[vsmith]

As someone who has driven both electric and hybrids some observations. Electric cars are only good for VERY short drives and errands, some of the electric fleet cars we had only had 50 mile ranges, the newer electric RAV4's can go about 100 miles on a charge which is pretty good, but the recharge time is long. We have 1st gen Toyota Hybrids and I like them, they drive a bit different and the brake charging system is unnerving at first (feels like a panic stop when you apply the brakes) but you get used to it and adapt. It wierd to drive over 50 miles and barely see the gas guage move!

I dont trust Ford or GM with a Hybrid, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, yes, but alternate energy American cars always seem to be big disasters from the onset. GM's EV1 was the BIGGEST automotive JOKE of the 90's, millions of $$ producing 50 mile range and a 8-hr recharge time, a golf cart had the same performance. They do this so they can say "see we told ya they were bad" and just go right back to pushing big ugly gas guzzlers.

[vsmith]

OPEC just cut production by a million barrels a day, and you know the oil companies will raise prices just "because" , I really wonder how high they will push prices, California and some east coast cities need special formula gas that is in very short supply right now. The prediction is that regular could hit $3 gallon in Ca and NY , we'll see what that does to driving habits, I'm already planning on taking the light rail to work if this occurs.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

Us westerners are way, way beyond "need" for anything. All we need are food and shelter, which can be had in the crudest forms for only a few dollars a day (ask a 3rd worlder). In terms of sucking up the worlds resources, driving a small car is only marginally worse than driving a large SUV. For a small car driver to call an SUV driver "socially irresponsible" really misses the point.

Good point. When the driver of the hybrid arrives home, he parks his environmentally friendly vehicle in his attached two car garage, goes into the 5000 square foot air conditioned house, opens up a refrigerator the size of Belize to get out a brew before sitting down in his recliner to watch the big game on his 72" plasma screen TV. Later, he'll use his 18HP lawn tractor to mow his 1/8 acre lawn, then cool off with a dip in his in-ground pool.

It's not about the cars. It's about the lifestyle. People do because they can. Those that can't, do sometimes anyhow.

[TH&B]

Gas price is still only part of it, North America is still very under populated compared to Europe and Japan, and that means alot in behavior paterns and "needs", there is a bigger space to tame. I also think that the Americans will make a bigger effort to keep gas prices resonable even at huge effort (it's not just because gas taxes is less). Perhaps the Europeans and Japanese just have other issues and priorities and "wants" then the cost of gas alone. USA is suposedly a free country but we are ball and chained to gasoline. In Europe you are also "free" to drive a big gas guzzeler if you so desired, I've seen them do that sometimes.
I'll take that 49 Chevy Fleetline any day, over any SUV or BMW! ha

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wallyworld

There is a major gulf in meaning between "need" and "want." When the cost of a barrel of oil exceeds $40.00, we'll see who can afford what.

I don't think $40.00/barrel oil will make much of a change. We're at $38/barrel now and gas is at $1.70 or so. (I paid $1.65 here yesterday). $40/barrel will only get gas up to $2.00 or so, roughly the same price it was in the 1960s (inflation adjusted). They typical family car in the 1960s was a 4000 # station wagon that got 10-15 mpg (gee, just like a large SUV! Has our behavoir changed any in the past 40 years?)

Us westerners are way, way beyond "need" for anything. All we need are food and shelter, which can be had in the crudest forms for only a few dollars a day (ask a 3rd worlder). In terms of sucking up the worlds resources, driving a small car is only marginally worse than driving a large SUV. For a small car driver to call an SUV driver "socially irresponsible" really misses the point.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark

Simply put, compared to the rest of the world, Americans are selfish.... There are mountainous regions in Asia and Europe and Latin America but the citizens in these locations are satisfied with the performance of a 4 cyclinder or even a 3 cyclinder car. As for hauling freight, the farmers of these locations are satisfied renting trucks when the need arises or contracting out the hauling, rather thån owning a family vehicle that consumes gas at less than 30 mph.

Most Europeans park their boats at marinas. They use tents for camping, which fit easily into many of their small hatchbacks....such as the Golf or Lupo.....

Well, I don't think Americans are any more selfi***han Europeans are stupid. Is their another reason why Europeans put up with outrageous taxes and quasi-socialist governments? See, I can trade ad-hominems as well as the next guy![:D]

Americans and Europeans (and everybody else, for that matter) make lifestyle decisions based on economics - IN THEIR OWN SELF INTEREST! If the gov't fuel tax and cost of fuel is low, then you get sprawled out suburbs, SUVs, etc. If energy costs are high, then people live closer to work, have smaller cars, and smaller housing, etc.

Other behavior follows. Europeans use marinas because, they don't have a place to store their boat at their home (most Americans do) and it is cheaper to store a boat at a marina than to tow it home each day. Why would I pay $100/month at a marina when it only costs me $20/month to tow the boat home and store it for free? I suspect there are more boat owners per capita in the US than Europe.

There is an entire RV lifestyle in the US where retired folks live full time in motorhomes or travel trailers. This is not "camping" in the traditional sense and using a tent is not an alternative. Similarly, much family camping is done in pop-up trailers or smaller travel trailers because it is affordable. I suspect there are more "campers" in the US because we can afford to provide our wifes with accomodations that include a bathroom they don't have to hike to in the middle of the night![;)]

[wallyworld]

There is a major gulf in meaning between "need" and "want." When the cost of a barrel of oil exceeds $40.00, we'll see who can afford what. We are spoiled by cheap energy prices when directly compared to filling up your gas tank in Europe.I could type all day and rant about the enviroment, transportation policy and the ethics of gas guzzling SUV's. But let's face it, everything is driven by the marke, not philosophy.t . I lived through the gas shortages in the past where you had to scrounge or work out a back door deal for gas to get to simply ariive at work.
This situation produced the gas efficencies of smaller cars which set back Detroit in the market as the Japan entered this misery with their smaller more fuel efficent cars. They clobbered Detroit. Anyone here remember that? Well, how quickly we forget history when it comes to the current situation. Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall...

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark

Simply put, compared to the rest of the world, Americans are selfish.... There are mountainous regions in Asia and Europe and Latin America but the citizens in these locations are satisfied with the performance of a 4 cyclinder or even a 3 cyclinder car. As for hauling freight, the farmers of these locations are satisfied renting trucks when the need arises or contracting out the hauling, rather thån owning a family vehicle that consumes gas at less than 30 mph.

Most Europeans park their boats at marinas. They use tents for camping, which fit easily into many of their small hatchbacks....such as the Golf or Lupo.....

Mr. Clark: I do not think that insulting one particular nationality is helpful, and I might point out the Canadians (such as myself, only transplanted) are every bit as selfish, if that is the correct term. I quite agree with your comment about mountainous regions in Asia and Europe and Latin America, but I think that stating that the farmers are 'satisfied renting' is misleading: they don't have a choice. I have a choice, and I am proud of the nations and the work of the people who gave me that choice, and I hope that I do not do anything to deny that choice to those who are less fortunate.
I and my neighbours use our trucks as trucks, and that use benefits many besides ourselves. If all I had available to me was a four cylinder mini-truck, I would use it because I had to -- and I would have to make twice as many trips to do what needs to be done, taking twice as much time, and using the same amount of gas as I do now anyway. This would not be helpful to anyone.
I doubt very much if it is really possible for a North American (Canadian or US) to really understand the compactness of Europe without actually living there, and most of us haven't. The style you mention above is wholly appropriate there. On the other hand, I also doubt that it is possible for a European to understand the size of North America without living there (perhaps a Great Russian might...). I have a cousin, for example, in Saskatchewan who is a wheat 'farmer'. He works a spread which isn't a whole lot smaller than Luxembourg, and drives a hundred miles to the big city (Saskatoon) for supplies and the like. Is this better? worse? Neither. Just different, my friend.
So relax a little, and recognise that what is appropriate in Europe or perhaps the eastern US megalopolis just doesn't work in most of North America -- and vice versa -- and that the poor peasants in Latin America aren't poor and confined to renting 30 year old 4 bangers to get market because they like it that way!

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark

Simply put, compared to the rest of the world, Americans are selfish.... There are mountainous regions in Asia and Europe and Latin America but the citizens in these locations are satisfied with the performance of a 4 cyclinder or even a 3 cyclinder car. As for hauling freight, the farmers of these locations are satisfied renting trucks when the need arises or contracting out the hauling, rather thån owning a family vehicle that consumes gas at less than 30 mph.

Most Europeans park their boats at marinas. They use tents for camping, which fit easily into many of their small hatchbacks....such as the Golf or Lupo.....

Living in a resort area, I see a lot of boats and camping paraphenalia. The big boats are at marinas. However, there are many different lakes and waterways in the area suitable for boating, and which cannot be reached by water in any form or are too far away by water to make visiting them worthwhile. For a fisherman, that's a problem, so he tows his boat. Many of the boats are being towed by trucks that are plainly marked for a business for which a truck is clearly appropriate.

While we do see a lot of the bigger camping vehicles, a lot of the campers at the area state parks are in tents or small camping trailers, towed with the family sedan, very often a modest affair, possibly with a 4 cylinder engine.

Consider, too, that many of the pickups on the road are not huge, gas guzzling 4WD V8's, but little 4 cyls (S-10s, Rangers, etc), very much comparable to your average "economy" car, but with a pickup bed.

I can't deny America's love affair with big cars and trucks, but if you spend some time on the road, you'll see a lot more "small" to "average" vehicles than "big" vehicles. Unfortunately, the following image seems to more close reflect some folks picture of American vehicles:

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by toyomantrains

Ahhh- the naysayers! Similar probably to when dieselization confronted the steam era. Don't fear- people Will go muddin' in a hybrid (Californicaters first!) and 'yer battry' won't go dead either. Embrace the 'new' technology- it's here to stay. If you don't end up owning one your children and/or their children probably will!

{Best Foghorn Leghorn voice} Ahh, that's a joke son, a joke! You're supposed to laugh!

No doubt the hybrids, and/or other technologies, will mature to the point where they become mainstream and are practical for the largest part of the population. Perhaps they'll take a path similar to the railroads, where diesels were at first rejected, then wholly embraced. Until that time, my V6 powered extended cab pickup carries everything I need and gets me where I'm going.

[edblysard]

Quite true, which is why I plan on keeping my 51 Willis Overland 4WD forever.
Somebody has to go rescue the kids....
Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by toyomantrains

Ahhh- the naysayers! Similar probably to when dieselization confronted the steam era. Don't fear- people Will go muddin' in a hybrid (Californicaters first!) and 'yer battry' won't go dead either. Embrace the 'new' technology- it's here to stay. If you don't end up owning one your children and/or their children probably will!

[Anonymous]

Simply put, compared to the rest of the world, Americans are selfish.... There are mountainous regions in Asia and Europe and Latin America but the citizens in these locations are satisfied with the performance of a 4 cyclinder or even a 3 cyclinder car. As for hauling freight, the farmers of these locations are satisfied renting trucks when the need arises or contracting out the hauling, rather thån owning a family vehicle that consumes gas at less than 30 mph.

Most Europeans park their boats at marinas. They use tents for camping, which fit easily into many of their small hatchbacks....such as the Golf or Lupo.....

[daveklepper]

What about Hybrids/ Ford's SUV looks like in can run on straight battery power as well as gas and battery together . But it's availability will be this Autumn. Will it be winner?

[Anonymous]

Hah! Good point. If it works for an idiot...
Scary though- give the non-thinking class new technology

[M636C]

toyomantrains,

I had worked out what happened in your quote!

I've read reviews of the new Prius, but I'm not sure whether I've seen one. There are a few original Prius running in government fleets here. That should check whether they can be operated by users who don't know and don't care!

Peter

[Anonymous]

Ahhh- the naysayers! Similar probably to when dieselization confronted the steam era. Don't fear- people Will go muddin' in a hybrid (Californicaters first!) and 'yer battry' won't go dead either. Embrace the 'new' technology- it's here to stay. If you don't end up owning one your children and/or their children probably will!

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by UPTRAIN

I'd like to go muddin in a hybrid...lol.

Waddayamean the battery's dead?!? YOU get out and push!

[UPTRAIN]

I'd like to go muddin in a hybrid...lol.