Off Topic - Why do americans need such big cars???

[ozarkrailfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jchnhtfd

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

QUOTE: Originally posted by ozarkrailfan

Since we're on the topic of automobiles, is it possible to apply the principles of a diesel-electric locomotive on a smaller scale?

There have been a number of experiments with putting electric motors in each wheel, some dating to the very early days of the automobile. Don't recall exactly how they generated the electricity, though, and can't speak to why we aren't using the technology today. There must have been some drawbacks or we'd be seeing it used today.

There are at least two excellent hybrid cars at present, and more coming -- which partly solves one of the major problem of electric cars mentioned here: where does the power come from?

The problem with having the electric motor in the wheel is what is called unsprung weight: electric motors are heavy puppies, and anything that can be done to reduce the weight of the wheel helps handling and stability. Also, having the motor on the frame, with drive shafts, means you can use a lighter smaller motor -- and every pound counts. I would note that diesel electric engines, while the motors are mounted on the truck, have them partly sprung (suspended).

Thanks for the input. Guess I'll just have to re-think my plans for a biodiesel-electric hybrid suv.

[ozarkrailfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz


My point is one that I did not see mentioned--that driving slower will drastically increase your mpg. And before you go off about haw you're so busy and can't afford to slow down, consider: at highway speeds, on average, each mph you go increases your fuel consumption about one percent. So at 70mph, you will get 5% less mpg. At 55mph, you will get 20% better mileage. (and at 0 mph you will get infinite mpg) :-)

That last part unfortunately isn't true for the average automobile. Unless you have an electric or hybrid, your car is burning gas whenever your engine is running.
Personally I don't think it's a point worth arguing over. Those who enjoy gas-guzzling roadhogs and can afford to own and operate them will probably do so. But those who make it a habit to conserve fuel however possible will definitely have the last laugh.

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

A number of responses here indicate very good reasons to own a larger vehicle. But if the reason is to haul a 4x8 sheet once a year, or the rare occasion that a need to haul arises (moving, buying a refrigerator, etc), one could rent a pickup truck for about $25/day.

IMHO, many people drive big due to feelings of inadequacy or impotence. The big, macho look is important to some people. And some like to feel intimidating to others on the road. Consider the popularity of that race car driver that died last year. He was known as the "Intimidator" and was very popular. I think that says something about some people's attitude.

And certainly, Mr & Mrs soccerparent do not need such a massive landbruiser.

Sure, what you say is true, but if people want one and can afford one, then why shouldn't they have one? Is that more frivelous than driving several hundred miles a month in pursuit of a hobby such as railfanning or any other frivelous thing we do with our discretionary income - even if it is making up for some inadequacy?

Good point.

[wallyworld]

Another can to kick is the transformation of communities throughout this country into an absurd level of reliance on the automobile. When I was growing up in the 1950”s my typical Midwestern family would walk up to Main Street and shop, see a movie, have a hamburger, etc. Now I have to drive five miles to the corporate mega-box wonder store off the perennially clogged interstate to shop and get in the car and repeat this routine another several miles to do something else. Ah, the wonders of so called Urban Planning seemingly stuck in arrested development back in 1960.. If gas was unavailable tomorrow, I would be up the creek without a paddle. I live near a major city where the expressway is in reality, a parking lot for us to burn gas while going nowhere. The other day I was stuck in traffic and a pedestrian beat me to my destination. I have been tailgated by many an SUV whose driver acted as though it was an urban combat vehicle designed to individually mow over anyone stupid enough to drive at the legal speed limit. I went back to my hometown recently after several decades had passed and it was for all purposes, not even a pale shadow of what it had been. All commerce had moved out to an outer belt of sprawl whose only access was the automobile. And so it goes.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

A number of responses here indicate very good reasons to own a larger vehicle. But if the reason is to haul a 4x8 sheet once a year, or the rare occasion that a need to haul arises (moving, buying a refrigerator, etc), one could rent a pickup truck for about $25/day.

IMHO, many people drive big due to feelings of inadequacy or impotence. The big, macho look is important to some people. And some like to feel intimidating to others on the road. Consider the popularity of that race car driver that died last year. He was known as the "Intimidator" and was very popular. I think that says something about some people's attitude.

And certainly, Mr & Mrs soccerparent do not need such a massive landbruiser.

Sure, what you say is true, but if people want one and can afford one, then why shouldn't they have one? Is that more frivelous than driving several hundred miles a month in pursuit of a hobby such as railfanning or any other frivelous thing we do with our discretionary income - even if it is making up for some inadequacy?

[Modelcar]

...Time flies....He [Earnhardt], died in Feb. 2001..! But he really was a winner over time.

[zardoz]

A number of responses here indicate very good reasons to own a larger vehicle. But if the reason is to haul a 4x8 sheet once a year, or the rare occasion that a need to haul arises (moving, buying a refrigerator, etc), one could rent a pickup truck for about $25/day.

IMHO, many people drive big due to feelings of inadequacy or impotence. The big, macho look is important to some people. And some like to feel intimidating to others on the road. Consider the popularity of that race car driver that died last year. He was known as the "Intimidator" and was very popular. I think that says something about some people's attitude.

And certainly, Mr & Mrs soccerparent do not need such a massive landbruiser.

[Train Guy 3]

It would be great to go for some little 4 cyclinder vehicle but they can get the job done that i need done. They might be great to ride around on but it when it comes to getting work done they cant last. A 800 pound truck vs. a 3/4 ton truck, which do you think can work the hardest?

[vsmith]

Hey Zardoz, and Antonio!

congrates on that 3rd star, it looks good!
[bday][bow][bday][bow][bday]

[zardoz]

A point was made somewhere in the previous six pages about vehicle profiles relating to wind resistance/drag, and how it increases exponentially the faster you go.

My point is one that I did not see mentioned--that driving slower will drastically increase your mpg. And before you go off about haw you're so busy and can't afford to slow down, consider: at highway speeds, on average, each mph you go increases your fuel consumption about one percent. So at 70mph, you will get 5% less mpg. At 55mph, you will get 20% better mileage. (and at 0 mph you will get infinite mpg) :-)

Sure, the trip takes longer, but how much? I commute 45 miles each way to work. If I drive 70mph, it takes me about 40 minutes. If I drive 60, it takes me 45 minutes. 5 minutes longer, but 15% better mileage. That adds up quickly at $2/gallon.

Of course, the problem with going slower, especially in daytime traffic, you really mess up the traffic flow for everyone else. So usually I go "normal" speeds until I can get behind a slower truck (JB Hunt are good ones to follow--very professional drivers).

BTW, I have notice a relationship between the price of gas and the number of cars going slower.

[AntonioFP45]

I admit that up until the 1990s, I was a GM V-8 nut. I'm greatful that my mentor at the transit agency that I used to work at suggested to me that I should try 4 Cylinder Japanese vehicles. Hesitantly I bought Toyotas and I've never look back! My wife suggested two years ago that we get an SUV as our income had increased. Looking now at gas pump prices, I'm so glad that we decided to stick with and payoff our 4 cylinder Camry and Tacoma! And as for merging onto traffic at speed, they're not Trans Ams but they will burn rubber!

[vsmith]

As someone who has driven both electric and hybrids some observations. Electric cars are only good for VERY short drives and errands, some of the electric fleet cars we had only had 50 mile ranges, the newer electric RAV4's can go about 100 miles on a charge which is pretty good, but the recharge time is long. We have 1st gen Toyota Hybrids and I like them, they drive a bit different and the brake charging system is unnerving at first (feels like a panic stop when you apply the brakes) but you get used to it and adapt. It wierd to drive over 50 miles and barely see the gas guage move!

I dont trust Ford or GM with a Hybrid, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, yes, but alternate energy American cars always seem to be big disasters from the onset. GM's EV1 was the BIGGEST automotive JOKE of the 90's, millions of $$ producing 50 mile range and a 8-hr recharge time, a golf cart had the same performance. They do this so they can say "see we told ya they were bad" and just go right back to pushing big ugly gas guzzlers.

[vsmith]

OPEC just cut production by a million barrels a day, and you know the oil companies will raise prices just "because" , I really wonder how high they will push prices, California and some east coast cities need special formula gas that is in very short supply right now. The prediction is that regular could hit $3 gallon in Ca and NY , we'll see what that does to driving habits, I'm already planning on taking the light rail to work if this occurs.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

Us westerners are way, way beyond "need" for anything. All we need are food and shelter, which can be had in the crudest forms for only a few dollars a day (ask a 3rd worlder). In terms of sucking up the worlds resources, driving a small car is only marginally worse than driving a large SUV. For a small car driver to call an SUV driver "socially irresponsible" really misses the point.

Good point. When the driver of the hybrid arrives home, he parks his environmentally friendly vehicle in his attached two car garage, goes into the 5000 square foot air conditioned house, opens up a refrigerator the size of Belize to get out a brew before sitting down in his recliner to watch the big game on his 72" plasma screen TV. Later, he'll use his 18HP lawn tractor to mow his 1/8 acre lawn, then cool off with a dip in his in-ground pool.

It's not about the cars. It's about the lifestyle. People do because they can. Those that can't, do sometimes anyhow.

[TH&B]

Gas price is still only part of it, North America is still very under populated compared to Europe and Japan, and that means alot in behavior paterns and "needs", there is a bigger space to tame. I also think that the Americans will make a bigger effort to keep gas prices resonable even at huge effort (it's not just because gas taxes is less). Perhaps the Europeans and Japanese just have other issues and priorities and "wants" then the cost of gas alone. USA is suposedly a free country but we are ball and chained to gasoline. In Europe you are also "free" to drive a big gas guzzeler if you so desired, I've seen them do that sometimes.
I'll take that 49 Chevy Fleetline any day, over any SUV or BMW! ha

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wallyworld

There is a major gulf in meaning between "need" and "want." When the cost of a barrel of oil exceeds $40.00, we'll see who can afford what.

I don't think $40.00/barrel oil will make much of a change. We're at $38/barrel now and gas is at $1.70 or so. (I paid $1.65 here yesterday). $40/barrel will only get gas up to $2.00 or so, roughly the same price it was in the 1960s (inflation adjusted). They typical family car in the 1960s was a 4000 # station wagon that got 10-15 mpg (gee, just like a large SUV! Has our behavoir changed any in the past 40 years?)

Us westerners are way, way beyond "need" for anything. All we need are food and shelter, which can be had in the crudest forms for only a few dollars a day (ask a 3rd worlder). In terms of sucking up the worlds resources, driving a small car is only marginally worse than driving a large SUV. For a small car driver to call an SUV driver "socially irresponsible" really misses the point.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark

Simply put, compared to the rest of the world, Americans are selfish.... There are mountainous regions in Asia and Europe and Latin America but the citizens in these locations are satisfied with the performance of a 4 cyclinder or even a 3 cyclinder car. As for hauling freight, the farmers of these locations are satisfied renting trucks when the need arises or contracting out the hauling, rather thån owning a family vehicle that consumes gas at less than 30 mph.

Most Europeans park their boats at marinas. They use tents for camping, which fit easily into many of their small hatchbacks....such as the Golf or Lupo.....

Well, I don't think Americans are any more selfi***han Europeans are stupid. Is their another reason why Europeans put up with outrageous taxes and quasi-socialist governments? See, I can trade ad-hominems as well as the next guy![:D]

Americans and Europeans (and everybody else, for that matter) make lifestyle decisions based on economics - IN THEIR OWN SELF INTEREST! If the gov't fuel tax and cost of fuel is low, then you get sprawled out suburbs, SUVs, etc. If energy costs are high, then people live closer to work, have smaller cars, and smaller housing, etc.

Other behavior follows. Europeans use marinas because, they don't have a place to store their boat at their home (most Americans do) and it is cheaper to store a boat at a marina than to tow it home each day. Why would I pay $100/month at a marina when it only costs me $20/month to tow the boat home and store it for free? I suspect there are more boat owners per capita in the US than Europe.

There is an entire RV lifestyle in the US where retired folks live full time in motorhomes or travel trailers. This is not "camping" in the traditional sense and using a tent is not an alternative. Similarly, much family camping is done in pop-up trailers or smaller travel trailers because it is affordable. I suspect there are more "campers" in the US because we can afford to provide our wifes with accomodations that include a bathroom they don't have to hike to in the middle of the night![;)]

[wallyworld]

There is a major gulf in meaning between "need" and "want." When the cost of a barrel of oil exceeds $40.00, we'll see who can afford what. We are spoiled by cheap energy prices when directly compared to filling up your gas tank in Europe.I could type all day and rant about the enviroment, transportation policy and the ethics of gas guzzling SUV's. But let's face it, everything is driven by the marke, not philosophy.t . I lived through the gas shortages in the past where you had to scrounge or work out a back door deal for gas to get to simply ariive at work.
This situation produced the gas efficencies of smaller cars which set back Detroit in the market as the Japan entered this misery with their smaller more fuel efficent cars. They clobbered Detroit. Anyone here remember that? Well, how quickly we forget history when it comes to the current situation. Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall...

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark

Simply put, compared to the rest of the world, Americans are selfish.... There are mountainous regions in Asia and Europe and Latin America but the citizens in these locations are satisfied with the performance of a 4 cyclinder or even a 3 cyclinder car. As for hauling freight, the farmers of these locations are satisfied renting trucks when the need arises or contracting out the hauling, rather thån owning a family vehicle that consumes gas at less than 30 mph.

Most Europeans park their boats at marinas. They use tents for camping, which fit easily into many of their small hatchbacks....such as the Golf or Lupo.....

Mr. Clark: I do not think that insulting one particular nationality is helpful, and I might point out the Canadians (such as myself, only transplanted) are every bit as selfish, if that is the correct term. I quite agree with your comment about mountainous regions in Asia and Europe and Latin America, but I think that stating that the farmers are 'satisfied renting' is misleading: they don't have a choice. I have a choice, and I am proud of the nations and the work of the people who gave me that choice, and I hope that I do not do anything to deny that choice to those who are less fortunate.
I and my neighbours use our trucks as trucks, and that use benefits many besides ourselves. If all I had available to me was a four cylinder mini-truck, I would use it because I had to -- and I would have to make twice as many trips to do what needs to be done, taking twice as much time, and using the same amount of gas as I do now anyway. This would not be helpful to anyone.
I doubt very much if it is really possible for a North American (Canadian or US) to really understand the compactness of Europe without actually living there, and most of us haven't. The style you mention above is wholly appropriate there. On the other hand, I also doubt that it is possible for a European to understand the size of North America without living there (perhaps a Great Russian might...). I have a cousin, for example, in Saskatchewan who is a wheat 'farmer'. He works a spread which isn't a whole lot smaller than Luxembourg, and drives a hundred miles to the big city (Saskatoon) for supplies and the like. Is this better? worse? Neither. Just different, my friend.
So relax a little, and recognise that what is appropriate in Europe or perhaps the eastern US megalopolis just doesn't work in most of North America -- and vice versa -- and that the poor peasants in Latin America aren't poor and confined to renting 30 year old 4 bangers to get market because they like it that way!

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark

Simply put, compared to the rest of the world, Americans are selfish.... There are mountainous regions in Asia and Europe and Latin America but the citizens in these locations are satisfied with the performance of a 4 cyclinder or even a 3 cyclinder car. As for hauling freight, the farmers of these locations are satisfied renting trucks when the need arises or contracting out the hauling, rather thån owning a family vehicle that consumes gas at less than 30 mph.

Most Europeans park their boats at marinas. They use tents for camping, which fit easily into many of their small hatchbacks....such as the Golf or Lupo.....

Living in a resort area, I see a lot of boats and camping paraphenalia. The big boats are at marinas. However, there are many different lakes and waterways in the area suitable for boating, and which cannot be reached by water in any form or are too far away by water to make visiting them worthwhile. For a fisherman, that's a problem, so he tows his boat. Many of the boats are being towed by trucks that are plainly marked for a business for which a truck is clearly appropriate.

While we do see a lot of the bigger camping vehicles, a lot of the campers at the area state parks are in tents or small camping trailers, towed with the family sedan, very often a modest affair, possibly with a 4 cylinder engine.

Consider, too, that many of the pickups on the road are not huge, gas guzzling 4WD V8's, but little 4 cyls (S-10s, Rangers, etc), very much comparable to your average "economy" car, but with a pickup bed.

I can't deny America's love affair with big cars and trucks, but if you spend some time on the road, you'll see a lot more "small" to "average" vehicles than "big" vehicles. Unfortunately, the following image seems to more close reflect some folks picture of American vehicles:

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by toyomantrains

Ahhh- the naysayers! Similar probably to when dieselization confronted the steam era. Don't fear- people Will go muddin' in a hybrid (Californicaters first!) and 'yer battry' won't go dead either. Embrace the 'new' technology- it's here to stay. If you don't end up owning one your children and/or their children probably will!

{Best Foghorn Leghorn voice} Ahh, that's a joke son, a joke! You're supposed to laugh!

No doubt the hybrids, and/or other technologies, will mature to the point where they become mainstream and are practical for the largest part of the population. Perhaps they'll take a path similar to the railroads, where diesels were at first rejected, then wholly embraced. Until that time, my V6 powered extended cab pickup carries everything I need and gets me where I'm going.

[edblysard]

Quite true, which is why I plan on keeping my 51 Willis Overland 4WD forever.
Somebody has to go rescue the kids....
Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by toyomantrains

Ahhh- the naysayers! Similar probably to when dieselization confronted the steam era. Don't fear- people Will go muddin' in a hybrid (Californicaters first!) and 'yer battry' won't go dead either. Embrace the 'new' technology- it's here to stay. If you don't end up owning one your children and/or their children probably will!

[Anonymous]

Simply put, compared to the rest of the world, Americans are selfish.... There are mountainous regions in Asia and Europe and Latin America but the citizens in these locations are satisfied with the performance of a 4 cyclinder or even a 3 cyclinder car. As for hauling freight, the farmers of these locations are satisfied renting trucks when the need arises or contracting out the hauling, rather thån owning a family vehicle that consumes gas at less than 30 mph.

Most Europeans park their boats at marinas. They use tents for camping, which fit easily into many of their small hatchbacks....such as the Golf or Lupo.....

[daveklepper]

What about Hybrids/ Ford's SUV looks like in can run on straight battery power as well as gas and battery together . But it's availability will be this Autumn. Will it be winner?

[Anonymous]

Hah! Good point. If it works for an idiot...
Scary though- give the non-thinking class new technology

[M636C]

toyomantrains,

I had worked out what happened in your quote!

I've read reviews of the new Prius, but I'm not sure whether I've seen one. There are a few original Prius running in government fleets here. That should check whether they can be operated by users who don't know and don't care!

Peter

[Anonymous]

Ahhh- the naysayers! Similar probably to when dieselization confronted the steam era. Don't fear- people Will go muddin' in a hybrid (Californicaters first!) and 'yer battry' won't go dead either. Embrace the 'new' technology- it's here to stay. If you don't end up owning one your children and/or their children probably will!

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by UPTRAIN

I'd like to go muddin in a hybrid...lol.

Waddayamean the battery's dead?!? YOU get out and push!

[UPTRAIN]

I'd like to go muddin in a hybrid...lol.

[Anonymous]

Hmmm... I can diagnose and repair hybrid vehicles but I can't use a quote and respond properly! Must be my keyboard- yeah, thats it.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Dave,

So far Hybrid vehicles are fairly small vehicles, really city cars, but there is no reason why the principle couldn't be applied to mid size cars, or smaller SUVs. The weight and capacity of the battery would be a problem, so the performance on electric power might be more restricted, but the energy saving from regenerating would still be there.

Peter

The second generation Prius has more interior room than a Corolla and almost as much as a Camry. Torque and horsepower have been increased- it really gets up and goes! (much better than gen 1). The main (high-voltage) battery weighs around 100 pounds. Hybrid v-6 and v-8's are coming- Toyota is restructuring some of its production facilities to be able to produce the same model in gasoline or hybrid on the same assembly line. Look for them soon at a Toyota dealer near you!

[UPTRAIN]

I'd drive em all!!!

[Train Guy 3]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CBQ_Guy

QUOTE: Originally posted by Train Guy 3

I hate the cars of today, to ugly for me. Sure they got a bunch of neat gizmos but they dont have the class of the past. I crave for the old days for the great wheels of the roads.... The Stringrays, the Novas, the Chevelles, the Roadrunners/Superbirds, the Chargers/Challerger/Daytonas, the Torinos, the Olds 442s, the Trans AMs, the Cameros, the Mach 1s, the AC Cobras, the El Caminos......... I'll take those cars and there big gas burning engines anyday of the week.

Well I'll agree, there's that, too! (Don't forget the GTX...)

I can't believe i forgot the GTX..... i even have a picture of a red one beside a SD45-2 above my bed. Well i forgot the Bel-Air too and the GTO and th...... well i could list great cars for days like i could list trains, so I'm gonna stop while I'm ahead. haha

[Modelcar]

....Good American C I and gobs of torque= delightful fun.

[UPTRAIN]

I drive a 2004 Chevy Extended Cab V8 4x4 mo-pac blue...and damn proud of it!!!

[Anonymous]

I LOVE HORSEPOWER!!!! I have a 1985 Ford Mustang GT, which is currently at 245 horsepower, and when finances will allow, I'll pump it up to the 350hp + range, but that still probably won't be enough! I'm not happy unless I can pass EVERYTHING on the highway EXCEPT the gas stations[:D]. Remember, there is NO replacement for displacement!! Has your Audi ever gone from 0 to 60 in 5 seconds[:0], or less[:D]??? That is the ultimate experience, being thrown back against the seat so hard that the passengers can't lift thier arms off the seats!!![:D][:D] G-forces, my friend, G-forces!!!![:D]

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

I'll just have to keep asking the question: 'What about hybrids? Dave Klepper

Dave -- I think several people have answered the question, in effect. Peter, just after your post, and myself, a number of posts earlier, for example. Hybrids are certainly viable, and have some real advantages. The one I have driven -- the Honda flavour -- is a fine, fun little car. The bigger hybrids in trucks will be out in a year or two; no reason why they won't be just as good, although, as Peter noted, you do lose carrying capacity with the batteries (and carrying capacity is what a truck is all about).
To relate to rail: the Green Goat locomotive currently on the market and in use in several areas is a hybrid, and seems to work quite well. In the market for which it is designed -- switching -- the weight penalty from the batteries is not a problem: you need weight, and you don't need big-time horsepower all that often.
It's worth noting that the advantage of the hybrid design decreases as the proportion of 'highway' mileage (whether open road or mainline rail) goes up related to 'stop and go' (city driving or switching). The advantages of the hybrid come from two sources: prmarily from being able to use an engine which has the average horsepower necessary to perform the mission, and secondarily from optimizing that engine to run its very best at one specific power output.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Train Guy 3

I hate the cars of today, to ugly for me. Sure they got a bunch of neat gizmos but they dont have the class of the past. I crave for the old days for the great wheels of the roads.... The Stringrays, the Novas, the Chevelles, the Roadrunners/Superbirds, the Chargers/Challerger/Daytonas, the Torinos, the Olds 442s, the Trans AMs, the Cameros, the Mach 1s, the AC Cobras, the El Caminos......... I'll take those cars and there big gas burning engines anyday of the week.

So..... where does GM sell beter, locomtives or cars?

picture the Mookie in a roadrunner - orange, a mustang convertible - red with white rag top and a Nova. Owned the RR, borrowed the Mustang and got the Nova well past it's prime! But fond memories, anyway!

[M636C]

Dave,

So far Hybrid vehicles are fairly small vehicles, really city cars, but there is no reason why the principle couldn't be applied to mid size cars, or smaller SUVs. The weight and capacity of the battery would be a problem, so the performance on electric power might be more restricted, but the energy saving from regenerating would still be there.

Peter

[daveklepper]

I'll just have to keep asking the question: 'What about hybrids? Dave Klepper

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Train Guy 3

I hate the cars of today, to ugly for me. Sure they got a bunch of neat gizmos but they dont have the class of the past. I crave for the old days for the great wheels of the roads.... The Stringrays, the Novas, the Chevelles, the Roadrunners/Superbirds, the Chargers/Challerger/Daytonas, the Torinos, the Olds 442s, the Trans AMs, the Cameros, the Mach 1s, the AC Cobras, the El Caminos......... I'll take those cars and there big gas burning engines anyday of the week.

Well I'll agree, there's that, too! (Don't forget the GTX...)

[Anonymous]

I need a big car to have room to take my 2 hour naps coming home from my terminal when I am working on my rest sometimes it's all the rest I can get...

Having a V-8 is nice too in a mid-size SUV that can get out of it's own way...

LC

[dave9999]

It's not that we need big cars, it's that we can get big cars. Big vehicles are as available as small vehicles. I work in construction and would destroy a small truck in a
matter of days. For example, last week I pulled a trailer loaded with well over 1500 lbs of
wood to Defuniak Springs, Fl ( about 85 miles from Pensacola). A TOYota would have been coughing and chocking on the first hill.
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=87&subpageid=126522&ck=

BTW, to make this post train related, I saw a lot of MOW work along Hwy 90 from Mossy Head to Defuniak. They were replacing rail, taking up the old in loooong sections and
laying them along the right of way. The Mow trains were parked on the Mossy Head wye.
Which I believe extends on towards Eglin AFB(?) Help me out dharmon. I'm sure you've
had a birds eye view of this area. Dave

[Train Guy 3]

I hate the cars of today, to ugly for me. Sure they got a bunch of neat gizmos but they dont have the class of the past. I crave for the old days for the great wheels of the roads.... The Stringrays, the Novas, the Chevelles, the Roadrunners/Superbirds, the Chargers/Challerger/Daytonas, the Torinos, the Olds 442s, the Trans AMs, the Cameros, the Mach 1s, the AC Cobras, the El Caminos......... I'll take those cars and there big gas burning engines anyday of the week.

So..... where does GM sell beter, locomtives or cars?

[Jordan6]

For the ladies.[(-D]

[Anonymous]

Six months ago in America unleaded gas 87 octane was cheaper than diesel, but that is not the case today.... diesel is around 10 cents cheaper today...

As for Iraq, like I said above, we are not short of oil, there is plenty of oil to last decades....the problem is that we are running our refineries at capacity. The reason why there aren't any refineries under construction is the simple fact that we need several, not one.... West coast oil is thicker than Sweet Texas Intermediate, and Persian Gulf oil is even thinner....Different areas of the country consume different types, and need different settings for the refineries..... Not even Saudi Arabia wants to build another refinery, they are happy refining the oil they use. Its up to us to refine what we use, but not one company is interested in building any.....or expanding current refineries... The simple truth is the fact that we won't pump any more than what we are currently pumping worldwide, and demand has surpassed pumping and refinery capacities....

In other words, peak oil....

Ever since Jimmy Carter killed the oil depreciation allowance, that is when refineries stopped being built..... Refineries are not buildings, they are machines, and every other machine can be depreciated, but not in the oil business.....

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 440cuin

Jamie; you're right about that weight of vehicle is a major factor in fuel economy, and so is wind drag at higher speeds. But the thing is a Bavarian BMW is NOT the same as a BMW over here (USA), many BMW's here are made in Mexico, the ones that are imported from Germany are made to American specs, including the motor. The Bavarian Beamers are slightly more efficient, so unless you have a BMW built in Germany that wasn't intended to go to the USA then it's not the same.

True, oh sage, on the Bavarian Beemers... and the build quality you can get here isn't quite as good. On the other hand, where I live, premium gas (which they both seem to need) costs... mucho bucks. When you can find it. Whereas my rat motored truck is perfectly happy on the 87[:D].

I deliberately left out driver habits when talking about fuel economy... and modelcar, you are so right! A lead-foot can eat twice the gas of a smoothie, regardless of what he's driving. As well as terrorizing the rest of us...[:)]

[M636C]

Supermicha

Using the following factors:

1 kilometre = 0.621 miles

1 US gallon = 3.79 litres

Your car gets 33.62 miles per US gallon.(which is good, but not amazing!)

A 150HP car getting 10litres/100km will get 23.5 miles per US gallon

My Australian car gets 10 litres/100 km, but we tend to think of gallons as having 4.54 litres (A British or perhaps "Imperial" gallon) so we like to say "28 miles per gallon" . All the English readers will understand this!

When Australia converted to Metric units (more formally "SI" for "Systeme Internationale") in 1973, the old system was invariably called "Imperial", which didn't go down well in the USA when I called it that. But there were enough differences from the US system for it to have a separate name.

Another point is the octane rating of the fuel. Is 95 octane the basic fuel in Germany, or is that a premium fuel? Most of the discussion here probably refers to 87 octane, if my recollection of Modelcar's postings is correct. So you have to make some adjustment for the additional energy value of 95 octane, because fuel consumption with higher octane fuel is reduced compared to lower octane fuel.

The weight of a car is important in fuel consumption, and so is frontal area and streamlining, sometimes measured as a coefficient, Cx, with a rectangular block being equal to 1.

But the power to weight ratio is important, and often a car with say a 3 litre V-6 engine will return better fuel consumption in the real world compared to the same car with a 2 litre 4 cylinder, depending on the relative loading experienced by the engines.

In dynamometer tests, of course with the car standing still inside a building, the smaller engine will always be more economical. Some government tests are carried out on dynamometers, and should be treated with scepticism until real road tests confirm (or not) the result.

Peter

[Anonymous]

I WANT ONE OF THOSE KW'S !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TH&B]

Jamie; you're right about that weight of vehicle is a major factor in fuel economy, and so is wind drag at higher speeds. But the thing is a Bavarian BMW is NOT the same as a BMW over here (USA), many BMW's here are made in Mexico, the ones that are imported from Germany are made to American specs, including the motor. The Bavarian Beamers are slightly more efficient, so unless you have a BMW built in Germany that wasn't intended to go to the USA then it's not the same.

[CBQ_Guy]

It's a guy thing!

[Modelcar]

....Yes, of course MPG stands for miles per gallon.....and in above post on variables in achieving fuel mileage. Fuel consumption is very much influenced by the driver. Some people can accomplish a drive with smooth moderate start ups and steady driving, etc...and another driver will consume much more fuel in same type of vehicle by his habit of foot heavy into the throttle in start ups and in his on throttle off throttle driving over the road using much more fuel than first driver. [8D]

[jchnhtfd]

PS -- I might add that the superior efficiency of the hybrid vehicles does not come through some kind of magic: it is because of the regenerative braking which can be used (the batteries are recharged when the car is slowing or braking) instead of dissipating all the energy as heat in the brakes...

[jchnhtfd]

A word or two on fuel economy and a few other sundries here...

First off, fuel economy: all else being equal (which it almost never is![:)]) the fuel usage of a given vehicle is influenced, more than anything else, by the weight of the vehicle. Heavy vehicle, more fuel. The relationship is almost exactly linear (that is, if your vehicle is twice as heavy as mine, it will use twice as much fuel) at relatively low speeds. As speeds increase, say above perhaps 30 mph (50 kmph), the drag of the vehicle becomes increasingly important -- and the drag is very closely related (within a factor of 2) to the front end area (height times width) of the vehicle.

One might observe at this point that SUVs, for example, lose rather badly on both counts... oh well.

But what about engine size? What about 4 cylinders vs. 6 or V6 or V8? Doesn't that make a difference. In a nutshell, not much. It will make a difference if the vehicle is sufficiently underpowered that it is simply not capable of the road speed that a larger engine might provide -- that is one of the things I meant by 'other things being equal'[:D] -- but if one were to restrict the vehicle with the larger engine to the same speeds as the little engine, the difference would disappear. The number of cylinders is almost entirely an engineering decision, and has almost no effect on fuel efficiency. The compression ratio of an engine has a substantial effect, however, which is why diesels (high compression) have better fuel efficiency than gasoline (lower compression) engines, and why supercharged or turbocharged engines have better efficiency that naturally aspirated engines.

The fuel used also has a definite effect: recently here in the US many states have decided that we will all be better off using gasoline spiked with ethanol -- but that fuel has only about 90% of the energy per gallon that straight gasoline does. Guess what: your gas mileage gets worse on ethanol spiked gas.

In response to supermicha's comments that our cars are 'really thirsty', I would note that a BMW in North America is exactly as efficient as one in Bavaria. But as many have pointed out, it simply won't take the pounding that a lot of us (especially on this forum!) have, of necessity, to give our cars.

[Anonymous]

A lot of this has to do with how we use our vehicles and road conditions and the size of our country. I drive a 3/4 ton pickup because we have a pickup camper that we use for vacations. My wife drives an SUV. Both are 4 wheel drive because on any given day, for five months out of the year, it may snow, ice, sleet in combination to almost any depth. We both commute over 50 miles a day and there is no public transport in our rural area. Would I rather drive more efficient, environmentally friendly vehicles? Sure! They just don't make sense for the way I live.

[Supermicha]

Excuse my question, but what are mpg´s? I could imagine "miles per gallon". Is that right? If yes, your cars are really thursty i think. My car just needs 7 liters of unloaded gas (95 octan) for 100 kilometers, a normal 150 hp engine is going with 10 till 12 liters per 100 kilomters, and 15 till 20 liters are much and very rare here in germany.

[Anonymous]

Easy! Trucks have 4wd, cars don't. When you live in an area that gets snow, you will be glad that you have the ability to put in 4wd and burn like rubber. With a 2wd you'll be sliddin all over the road when ever you have to make a turn or come to a stop. The only problem is that some people feel overcomfident when they have 4wd. Plus when the time comes when you can experience what its like to go off road and splashin through the mud puddles and goin up hills and goin through the woods, you will want a truck. Trust me its a cheap thrill but its fun.[:D]

Like a few have said, how are ya gonna pull a trailer or haul a load of dirt, lumber, block, etc with a car? It just can't be done. You'll be lucky to even get it out of the driveway. But than again most people who own a truck, dont use it for any of the purpose, specifically the "soccer moms" out there.

Also like I always say, if you can't afford to drive a truck, you shouldnt be driving one. Simple as that. Its not cheap to drive a truck, but I dont complain.

Personally I think cars of today just look ugly but than again some of the new trucks do too. I do like the older cars and trucks. Those were made of steel unlike these new vehicles out there that have more plastic than anything else.

Well thats my 2 cents.

[Modelcar]

25 mpg is not bad fuel economy...It's all relevant. Matters to what you compare it too....I think back to over 50 years ago and driving a 1949 Fleetline Deluxe Chevrolet...and getting 21 mpg and that was good for that era and autos of then...so now our vehicles that can get 25 mpg aren't really that bad. Sure little vehicles can be bought that get much more...but is it all that necessary. My over the road passenger car I drive now can run for hundreds of miles at 28 to 30 mpg at interstate speeds easy and that is just fine with me too....

[cpbloom]

The new Kenworth Pilgrimage, LOL!
No, LOL x 10!

[TH&B]

25 mpg is NOT good fuel economy, of course it looks good compared to 15mpg, but that is just comparing bad to worse. If I was to spend real money to buy a new car 45mpg is minimum, preferably 50 or more. But as long as I'm saving big bucks buying used depreciated big junky vehicles and not realy putting away many miles it is easier and more interesting to drive the big cars that I do.
Ever drive a big American car in Europe? I did, test drove an early '70s T-bird buddy had imported from the USA, man what a head tuner, when testing the V-8 power I accidently accelerated down the wrong way street because they have to many road signs over there and then I had to drive up on the grass meridian to find the right road, but I could feel people watching and thinking "that big American car is realy cool and it makes that guy driving it look cool too!" I remember laughing at for a car this big there sure wasn't much room in the trunk for stuff hehe. American cars may be poorly made and all, but they are a hoot to drive! Until you run out of gas that is.

[oltmannd]

Oil is still plentiful and fairly cheap. There are alternatives waiting in the wings when the price of oil rises too high. Biodiesel and ethanol come to mind. Also, there is a new process to extract a diesel equivalent from coal than could produce fuel at roughly $2.50 a gallon, so, unless the US gov't gets tax happy, liquid petroleum or equivalent fuel should be abundant and priced no more than $4/gallon or so for years and years to come.

What to drive is an economic decision each person has to make for themselves. If you want different results, change the economics. BTW, I have a Ford Expedition which gets horrible gas mileage, but carries 8 people and tows my travel trailer and a Toyota Camry which I carpool in and gets 25 mpg.

[Modelcar]

...Yes, I have asked in previous post why we are not building more refineries...If they are profitable why not...? And V8 engines of present probably get nearly as good as milage as V6's in the recent past....Not all, but quite a few now have very good fuel numbers.
...If we have gone to Iraq to stablize the country and save the people from the worst dictator in recent history and now have the oil production under control...[forget the WMD], Why shouldn't we have the advantage of being the favorite customer to help our situation of short oil supply....We've paid for it with lives and American dollars. No that's not happening, instead we're being faced with the highest prices in history...! Good old America.....go save everyone and end up giving what's gained to everyone else.

[Anonymous]

i read in a newspaper that in 1990 only 40 percent of the new cars and trucks sold in America had V-8 engines, in 2002 over 52 percent of the new cars and trucks sold had V-8 engines.... Obviously the price of gasoline has not gone up enough..... We are buying bigger cars and trucks, not to mention buying bigger houses, at the very same time we have reached peak production of petroleum worldwide....As far as America is concerned, we now pump half the oil we did 30 years ago and consume twice as much....

Peak oil, I suggest all of us do a google search on this term.... The Europeans and the Asians are far ahead of us in conserving energy.... Americans act as if oil grew on trees.... The reason gas prices are higher even before summer is that we have reached peak oil, consuming more than we can produce.... supply and demand in the future will only get worst....

Keep in mind there hasn't been a new refinery built in American in 30 years.... Ever wonder why there hasn't been any built, especially in a free market system? Even if the world pumped more oil, we don't have the capacity to refine more..... Cheap gas is a thing of the past, with the free market alone, expect gas prices to reach $5 a gallon in five years, if not more. As long as there is a shortage of gas at the pumps, the price will increase more and more as the shortage gets larger....

I drive a VW Cabrio, a 2 liter 4 cyclinder car which gets around 30 mph highway. I wished VW offered the Cabrio in its 1.9 liter turbo diesel which gets over 45 mpg highway. I have almost paid off the Cabrio and am looking at a Golf or Jetta with the 1.9 liter turbo diesel as my next car... However, I wished VW sold the Lupo in America, it gets over 60 mph....

Is this the next newest SUV to hit America:

[daveklepper]

What about Hybrids? Dave

[ozarkrailfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Saw an interesting story on the news a few weeks back.

A professional woman had purchased a brand new "Hummer". After driving it for a few weeks, she wanted the dealership to take it back! She explained that "she didn't know that it would drink so much gas!"

Is it just me or do automobiles today have worse gas mileage than a decade or so? I don't think there's a good enough reason for a vehicle like the Hummer not to get at least 30 mpg.

[Anonymous]

Had to respond (check my profile!) The answer to the post is both consumer-driven and political in nature. We'll skip the long history lesson and jump straight to now.....ok- 5-6 years ago. Gas prices were down, the economy was up, we (Americans- the subject of the post) wanted more (bigger,badder- a new generation,mind you) and the car companies not only obliged- they vamped up before you knew you wanted them. SUV's and full-sized trucks have been best-sellers for the car companies. You know when you see Buick ( a conservative 'older-demographic') building suv's that there is a market they are missing out in. The suv market is huge but you have to realise that for every suv sold there are 2 or 3 economy or mid-size cars sold also. That's how the manufactures can do it politically- sell one ULEV vehicle (ultra-low-emission vehicle) say the Toyo Camry and that makes up for two Sequoia's (14-19 mpg, if that). Sell one Prius (sulev) and that makes up for three. In the US for auto manufacturers it's all about CAFE requirements- thats the bottom line. If the government dictates that number is 22 then you can sell a three houndred thousand suv's that get 12/16 mpg but sell ten thousand economy cars that get 28/36 and even-out. It is much more complicated than this with many more factors involved- but that's the skinny. BTW- at least in my area there is an 8 month waiting list for a Prius (Generation 2 is awesome!) and a year or more for the hybrid Highlander. Toyota rocks!

[M636C]

Modelcar,

I've never driven a Corvette. They were never built with the steering wheel on the correct side for local conditions, and although some were converted, it was a real work of art, because there was almost no vacant space in a Corvette, so you had to move the console and gauges to where the air conditioner had been....

I did get a ride in one that had been converted, and it seemed to be an excellent performer while not too sensitive to our often poor roads.

But they didn't rust! (not that that is a really big problem in Australia unless you live right on the coast). We had to put up with steel bodied Japanese copies, like the Toyota Supra, and they had to be imported specially. The GTO/Monaro was one of the first coupe's available in Australia for years, apart from the cars of Celica size and smaller.

The other thing about a population less than a tenth of the USA is a reduction in choice of lots of products, just due to the smaller market.

Peter

[Modelcar]

....Peter: And the 2005 Corvette will switch over from a 5.7L to a 6L engine for the normal regular model and it is said it will produce right around 400 hp and as I said before when the next model of the special Z06 comes on stream it will be in the neighborhood of 500 hp...!!!.....And They have taken some weight out of it so looks like it is going to be loaded for bear...! Quality has been upped and the interior has been upgraded as well....My personal experience with Corvettes goes way back when they were young and I was too...Had a black 1957 model.

[Anonymous]

We don't need to use our big cars so evyone ride AMTRAK

DOGGY

[Anonymous]

SUV's were created to abuse a legal loophole. They're classified as light trucks which have lower standards for safety, pollution, and fuel mileage. SUV's are cheaper to make than real cars but fetch a higher price (because they're bigger I guess). American automakers make all their profit in America from SUV's and light trucks so that's what they advertise.

SUV's are a throwback to pre WWII autos but they're the only way to go for the morbidly obease.

[M636C]

Now that I've calmed down about SUV handling, it appears from Modelcar's post that the AWD GTO/Monaro has the Corvette Z06 engine, so if they are offering that to the highway patrol, they must expect the AWD to take the beating (or maybe that's a quick way of finding out if it will last!

They built a 427 Cu In GTO for a 24 hr race here (one only) two years ago, and it won! It beat Porche GT4s and other really costly cars. Last year they ran two and they came in first and second! They were going to build it for the road but it ended up costing too much for the certification!

At the end of the second race, one of the drivers said that he was amazed at the fuel economy, because the 427 engine was never fully loaded. But I guess everything is relative - it wouldn't have been economical by many people's standards.

Peter

[Anonymous]

The only reason my car is as big as it is, is because my wife said I had to get a 4-door to carry the bambino in. I guess she didn't say I had to get a 260 hp Grand Prix GTP....

Dave

[M636C]

I'd like to back up AntonioFP45's comments about SUV handling. There was an accident just after Christmas (which is in summer here in Australia) involving a Toyota Land Cruiser, which is generally regarded as one of the best real 4x4 vehicles available in Australia.

A section of our most important highway Route 31, from Sydney to Melbourne, is still two lanes only, and this road carries really heavy truck traffic which can substantially delay traffic since there are some grades on that section of the road, although not very long climbs.

The Land Cruiser was carrying six people, two adults and four children in three rows of seats and their baggage was on a roof rack. The mother was driving.

Apparently she attempted to overtake a truck, not identified, but many of these are B-doubles with two trailers. The overtaking took longer than she expected, and she swerved back to the correct side, but the 4x4 rolled at about 75 mph.

The Toyota did not hit any other vehicle, but both adults and two children were killed in the rollover. I think the surviving children were in the centre row of seats.

I'm not trying to blame the manufacturer here! The Land Cruiser is one of the best vehicles of its type, and I've driven them around railroad yards when I was in the industry (and as Hi-Rails on track too - they take a long time to slow down on rails) and they are good vehicles.

But as Antonio said, they are trucks! You can't drive them like a sports sedan and expect them to handle like a 3-series BMW. In this case, the centre of gravity, already high, was raised by the baggage on the roof, and a manouvre that would have worked in an ordinary car ended up with two girls, 11 and 14 living with relatives, having lost the rest of their family.

This doesn't mean that using an SUV to drive the kids to school isn't safe. In a normal collision, the heavier vehicle is better off, and visibility is better. But in some emergencies, particularly where there is a risk of roll over, the standard 4x4 can be at a serious disadvantage.

In Australia, there are no standards for handling in those conditions that vehicles might be required to meet. Many people buy SUVs believing that they are safer in all conditions and this is not true. Fortunately most users will never discover their car's weaknesses, regardless of type.

But don't expect a truck to handle like a sports car, even in an emergency!

Peter

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

QUOTE: Originally posted by ozarkrailfan

Since we're on the topic of automobiles, is it possible to apply the principles of a diesel-electric locomotive on a smaller scale?

There have been a number of experiments with putting electric motors in each wheel, some dating to the very early days of the automobile. Don't recall exactly how they generated the electricity, though, and can't speak to why we aren't using the technology today. There must have been some drawbacks or we'd be seeing it used today.

There are at least two excellent hybrid cars at present, and more coming -- which partly solves one of the major problem of electric cars mentioned here: where does the power come from?

The problem with having the electric motor in the wheel is what is called unsprung weight: electric motors are heavy puppies, and anything that can be done to reduce the weight of the wheel helps handling and stability. Also, having the motor on the frame, with drive shafts, means you can use a lighter smaller motor -- and every pound counts. I would note that diesel electric engines, while the motors are mounted on the truck, have them partly sprung (suspended).

[oltmannd]

We don't need them. We just want them and can afford them, so why shouldn't we have them?

1. Gas is cheap here! In fact, it's cheaper now than it was in the 1960s (adjusted for inflation). Last tankful only cost me $1.59/gallon. So, driving a car with poor gas mileage is affordable.

2. We live sprawled-out, single family home on large lots, suburban lifestyles that favor big cars/trucks/SUVs (how else to get all that stuff home from Home Depot or all those kids to soccer practice?)

3. We tow boats and travel trailers all over the place. Can't tow a 4500 lb, 20 ft trailer with an Audi A6!

4. We prefer to have our highways subsidized by general tax revenue rather than the other way around, so driving is cheap and alternative are few. All things being equal, larger cars are more comfortable and flexible than smaller ones.

5. Many families own a car for each driver, so they may have an SUV or minivan plus a small sedan. Around here (Atlanta), many kids of driving age also have their own car, as well - usually an older sedan of some sort.

You won't a major shift to smaller cars in the US until gasoline rises to $2-$3/gallon.

[cpbloom]

"My ONLY criticism of many (not all) SUV drivers:

Many SUV drivers manuever SUVs like mid size cars which is a major mistake that can lead to tragic consequences if an emergency suddenly pops up. As a former part time Gray Line bus driver, I've witnessed this a number of times. These drivers need to recognize that an SUV is still a TRUCK! It needs to be treated and respected as such. "


That definitely needed to be said again, good point!

[AntonioFP45]

Saw an interesting story on the news a few weeks back.

A professional woman had purchased a brand new "Hummer". After driving it for a few weeks, she wanted the dealership to take it back! She explained that "she didn't know that it would drink so much gas!"

This response really blew me away considering that this person was an educated professional. Regardless of whether you want large, small, or both, consumers do need to perform research and get some basic commons sense edcucation instead of "Following Trends" or trying to present an artificial image.

As a tech ed. teacher, an SUV would be too expensive for me to maintain, but if a person wants to own one, GO FOR IT!

Re: Mileage?
My wife's 1999 4-cylinder Toyota Camry gets us from Tampa to Northern Georgia on 1/2 tank of gas! Our highway mileage is at about 30-32 mpg with luggage and 3 people in the car. That's driving at 75mph most of the way. Gas mileage for us is critical.

My ONLY criticism of many (not all) SUV drivers:

Many SUV drivers manuever SUVs like mid size cars which is a major mistake that can lead to tragic consequences if an emergency suddenly pops up. As a former part time Gray Line bus driver, I've witnessed this a number of times. These drivers need to recognize that an SUV is still a TRUCK! It needs to be treated and respected as such.

Peace, Amigos! [swg][tup]

[TH&B]

The big problem with electric cars is; where does the electricity come from? heavy batterys? gas or diesel with generator? extension cords? other new undeveloped clumsy sources? That's the problem because if you can get past that an electric motor needs no transmition and can be built extremely powerfull, an electric motor is quiet (needs no mufflers), reliable and you can bring it on to full pwer from a cold start.

[SALfan]

If you want to drive a tiny car, have fun, but don't criticize those of us who drive land yachts. As pointed out above, the situation here in the states is vastly different from that in Europe.

Just for info, my battleship-of-the-highway Mercury Grand Marquis will get 26 miles per gallon all day long cruising on the Interstate at 70 mph, carrying two large adults, a dog, and the 4000 pounds of crap that my wife needs on a two-week trip. It has plenty of power for merging onto the DC-area roads where everyone tries to drive 80 mph, and plenty of bulk to intimidate the punks and idiots who hop lanes like fleas on cocaine.

By contrast, my 14-year-old Isuzu pickup won't even go 70 mph without the engine screaming in protest, and it is so underpowered that merging into traffic going more than 40 mph is an exercise in terror. It only made 90 horsepower when new, and it definitely doesn't make that many now. I also need a can opener to get out of the thing. Oh, and by the way, it only gets a little over 20 miles per gallon cruising on the Interstate. Which do you think I prefer to drive?

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ozarkrailfan

Since we're on the topic of automobiles, is it possible to apply the principles of a diesel-electric locomotive on a smaller scale?

There have been a number of experiments with putting electric motors in each wheel, some dating to the very early days of the automobile. Don't recall exactly how they generated the electricity, though, and can't speak to why we aren't using the technology today. There must have been some drawbacks or we'd be seeing it used today.

[Supermicha]

Where did you hear that we in germany hav small roads? It sounds like you think our roads are just big enough for two bugs beneath. Thats not correct. On nearly every street you have a minimum space for two big trucks side by side, thats enough also for two SUV´s. Yes, germany is a small country if compared with the usa. But i have also 20 kilometer to work every day. And not over land, no, 20 kilometers thru the city, yes, we also have such big citys. [:D]

I find this thread very intersting, it shows me one more time how different europeans and americans are in thinking and living. Funny thing!

[ozarkrailfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wisser

Oh yea, And out here in the west there are plenty of places where speed limit is determined by how bold you are / how fast your car will go. Of course the speed limit by law is 75 MPH in Nevada and 70 in California, but the area is so vast in some places that the chances of seeing another car are slim ,and chances it's a cop are almost none.
As for myself I can't stand small cars. Just this morning I went on a 250mile trip with my dad in his Ford Ranger and I'm still sore from being cooped up. Give me a full size car / truck any day. And I don't care if I have to pay a few dollars more in gas to be comfortable.

I stand 6 foot 5 inches and I've sat more comfortably behind the wheel of a Toyota Corolla than a Ford Crown Victoria. Larger size doesn't always mean more room.
As for the topic question, I currently live a few miles down a rocky dirt road. Having a powerful 4wd vehicle unfortunately at times is essential.
Since we're on the topic of automobiles, is it possible to apply the principles of a diesel-electric locomotive on a smaller scale?

[Modelcar]

....LT-1 power is a 350 ci size [5.7L] @ 350 hp.....and the current Z06 [Corvette] engine of same size is rated at 405 hp...! This figure will change in the next version of Z06 Corvette as it is said to be coming with 3-valve heads and 6L in size and probably the horsepower to be around 500..!!!

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar



Little cars do not hold up to the vast expanses of our country. There are literally thousands of miles of roads that are rough and need a durable vehicle.

Sorry but that aurgument is just BS to me, I've had small cars all my life, a bug that i put 100,000 miles onto a car that had 60,000 miles driving all over california hwys backroads, dirtroads & desert trails, it held up fine. A Honda Civic that I drove 160,000 miles, and the BEST car I ever had was a Suzuki Samurai, I could take that little car ANYWHERE. dirt, trails, highways, you name it it went. For California mtns and deserts to No Cal woods to Texas hellonearth heat, eastern Mexico to baja California. So your arguement that small cars dont hold up doenst hold water with me. SOME small cars ARE crap i will agree there before someone replies to tell me about their faboulous Yugo. (if you bought a Yugo, THATS YOUR FAULT, dont vent on me). Peugot, FIAT, and a slew of Euro car dealers were sent packing due to the extremes of the US. But there are alot of good small cars out there. Toyota, Nissan, Suburu, etc.

I beleive it has more to do with wanting a big padded cushion under our collective big fat asses that has more to due with the big car craze right now. People will buy what they think they can afford , so after the fat 90's when gas was cheap and the economy was strong, peopl got use to the Luxo-mobiles and now dont want to go back to the smaller mid-size cars until they are literally screaming at the gas pump. Prices are going higher this summer, so we'll see if it looks bad i might get a Scion Xb breadvan or a smaller Nissan Frontier, we'll see.

BTW drive what ever you want, like what you drive...but one thing...just dont female dog at me at the pump about how unfair it is that your spending all your money filling that Hummer or that Sloburban, I have NO SYMPATHY, dont like it, trade it in get a smaller car but just SHUT UP, can you tell i'm getting tired of hearing this at the pump?

[M636C]

Modelcar,

The AWD GTO/Monaro prototype had 300kW badges, which I just calculated as 402HP, probably a rating like DIN, but using real horses of 746kw each not the smaller German 736kW horses. I agree that this AWD transmission might find it difficult with high power engines. What is the LT-1 power quoted as?

At the moment, the AWD system is only available with V8 engines (with about 200kW =268HP standard) because the 3.8 doesn't provide clearance for the front drive cross shaft. The new OHC V6 will allow this, and will be available with AWD, later this year, I think.

Nobody seems to have tried the AWD in the V8 racing sedans we have here, although with the sort of money GM and Ford throw at that, we could expect that they might build one to last a race.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Yeah but it still ain't as much torque as an LT-1!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

[Modelcar]

...You know they did have such a system some years ago in the form of the Cyclone and the GMC S-15 pickup but with a turbo and V6 but it really put out the performance and got it on the ground too.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....One more thing...I just was having 2nd thoughts of the AWD system I mentioned because it probably won't handle the torque of the LT-1 engine. [8D]

No! it would twist the guts out of the entire power train. But I want to watch if you decide to try.[8D]

P.S. I want a new Chevy SSR or an Avalanche [:D]

[Train Guy 3]

I don't like riding around in 500 pounds of plastic, it scares the crap out of me. I like my 67 Chevy pick-up... steal all the way around, so if something goes wrong i stay safe. I also like good old American Muscle, cause back roads are good dragstrips.

[Modelcar]

....One more thing...I just was having 2nd thoughts of the AWD system I mentioned because it probably won't handle the torque of the LT-1 engine. [8D]

[Modelcar]

Peter:
Yes, I'm aware of the El Camino......and it's Corvette LT-1 engine...and I wonder why the AWD system that GM has now [full time system], couldn't be installed in that vehicle. That sure would help the traction issue and it is virtually seamless now from what I understand. And by the way our Octane rating here for unleaded Regular is 87 and seems to do the job rather well. Of course some higher performance engines requiire the higher OT number which is available.

[M636C]

Modelcar,

The GTO/Monaro was sold here with the supercharged 3.8 litre, but our (Australian)octane ratings are such that the supercharged engine needs premium unleaded fuel, maybe 10 cents per litre more, or the ignition and knock sensors derate the supercharged engine back to pretty much the standard engine performance.

That option was dropped late last year. They keep promising an improvement in our octane ratings, so that European cars can run on standard unleaded. There is a sort of mini-pickup, a Proton "Jumbuck" built in Malaysia, based on Mitsubishi Lancer/Mirage components, but that has to use premium fuel here! That's hardly an exotic car!

One thing that has been discussed here is that the Commodore car based pickup (we call them "utilities" or "utes") might be sold in the USA reviving the Chevrolet "El Camino" name. That can be optioned with most of the GTO features at about half the price, (and includes the independent rear suspension), and once you've worked out what you can put in the tray to give some adhesion (bag of sand, maybe?) you can do some frightening things in the V8 version of that while still being able to claim that you have a "practical" vehicle. The 4x4 version is yet to appear.

Maybe I should look at picking up a used supercharged Monaro, and wait for the improved octane ratings?

But quite a few years ago, I was working for the Federal Government when unleaded gasoline was introduced to Australia. At that stage, it appeared that US pollution regulations were stricter than those in Europe, particularly those in California. While US fuel pricing has encouraged larger vehicles, the emissions per litre of fuel used are probably no worse than in Europe. The narrower streets in the European cities encourage smaller cars, and the shorter distances allow more highly stressed engines. But nobody can say that a Mercedes AMG E55 with five hundred horsepower is respectful of the environment or more responsible in any way than a Corvette, for example.

Peter

[jchnhtfd]

What a fascinating variety of answers and comments -- supermicha, you really hit one! I don't see too many responses from my Canadian cousins -- but there isn't all that much difference, really (no surprise there, eh?). I don't think I really have time to summarize it all (although there are some posts which can be left out rather easily... since they contain no information, just somewhat derogatory commentary). Someone did mention what happened to the station wagon? Got regulated out of existence by some do-gooders who got in power. It was a very good compromise for a large family (I've owned two over the years; a Buick Special which was really fun, and an Estate Wagon which had all the maneouvrability of an aircraft carrier, but was real handy for what I do). Several people, myself included, though, have hit on one theme which is important: a lot of us really do need a big tough vehicle at least part of the time. This is simply not true in Europe or the Orient (although it is in Australia). It's got to run, and run right, and take a h___ of a beating, and it can't be in the shop. Highly stressed engines are lovely pieces of machinery, but what do you do with one when you are halfway between here and there, and halfway is 100 miles from the nearest gas station, never mind repair shop where they speak little car, and the thing breaks down? Mudchicken mentioned this too. Yeah, our Chevy, Ford, and Dodge trucks are big. Yeah, they're heavy. Yeah, they're overbuilt. Yeah, they run forever on a regular oil change and a little love.

I'm sorry someone mentioned the Kyoto protocols. Whether we all agree or not (and we aren't going to), it is difficult for me at least to see a significant cost/benefit ratio for any developed country, and they really freeze out the third world. They sure sound good (before someone gets really anxious, and not to blow my own horn, but I wrote one of the first computer models which showed the seriousness of global warming, 20 years ago; it's still in use, by CSIRO -- and I am genuinely worried about it) and they make you feel all warm and fuzzy, though.

Anyway... fun topic. Now if someone will a) show me how I can do what I need to do with a vehicle with a little car which will run 500,000 miles without aircraft style maintenance, which I can't afford and b) will tell me how to afford to buy one, I'll think about dropping my 454 cu.in. K2500. Not until!

[Modelcar]

M636C...Good report on your country's autos........and I have knowledge on some of what you related. I believe the GTO will be a successful model reestablished in this country. Our Auto mag's already have presented road tests with it and it gets a pretty good write up...On the Commodore, we've had some rumors of maby the next GM effort might be an Impala SS from that model as the GTO was created from the Monaro. As it is now we have a front driver for the Impala SS and using the 3800 V6 supercharged to produce 240 hp. And that model even gets good EPA mileage rating....and again I suppose, if one keeps his foot out of it at least part of the time.
Sounds like your fuel is really on the expensive side....Right now here in our area the fuel is $1.77 per gal.....

[M636C]

Modelcar,

A delayed response to your questions about Australian GM cars. (It's all about when we have to sleep) . The 3.8 litre is pretty good really, and driven carefully will give about 30 miles per gallon (although we (used to) use British Gallons that are bigger than American gallons. That gives about 9 litres per hundred kilometres in the measures we use now.

Fuel costs less than in Germany but more than in the USA (it is approaching one Australian Dollar (US$0.75) per litre). It was worse earlier, but our exchange rate improved and the price (very gradually) fell (a little).

Our Federal Government had a tax on fuel based on Cost of Living increases, which took into account fuel cost rises. You don't need to be an economist to realise that this ensured a rising fuel price, but the tax adjustment was stopped (just before the last elections - what a surprise!) About two thirds of the fuel price here is tax.

So for a while, the second most popular car in the country was the Hyundai Accent, which is a small and basic 1.5 litre car. This stopped when some wheels fell off and the company refused to recall the cars for checking, and public lost confidence in a big way.

GM are building the car on which the GTO is based in a very wide range of bodies and in two and four wheel drive. There is a four wheel drive GTO prototype which has been tested as a police pursuit car (looks and sounds like good fun to me). The basic type is called "Commodore" after one of the earlier Opel cars it was based on, and the GTO is called "Monaro" here, after some mountains in the South East. There are pickups with two and four doors and two and four wheel drive, and high clearance 4x4 station wagons.

My own car, which is nine years old now, is a basic four door sedan, but it has the independent rear suspension and a limited slip differential. It has only required tyres, a headlight bulb and an alternator replaced in that time, and has run about 120 000 miles. On a sealed road, you can enter a curve at any speed you like and can expect to come out the other side, just scared to the extent you went in too fast!

The GTO was tested in England by the BBC TV program "Top Gear" and they did quite terrifying things to the car, and ended up by beating a Jaguar XK8 on a drag strip.

The only down side for me is a lack of headroom (but I'm quite tall 6'5") but if I dump the electrically adjusted seat for a manual one, that's OK. If you can find a GTO, take a test drive. We are all very proud of that car.

And Ford have had to build really good cars to compete. Until last year, GM were outselling Ford two to one in that market sector, but the new car (still called a "Falcon") has an excellent 4 litre DOHC inline 6 (or a special 5.6 litre quad cam V8 based on the US 4.6 litre) and a new independent rear suspension. If you get a chance to drive the turbocharged 6 cylinder Falcon, try it! (But Ford aren't exporting yet, they are still trying to meet demand here)

Peter

[BaltACD]

The American Ethic.....

If a little is good.....MORE is BETTER!

with its corrolary thought

BECAUSE WE CAN!

[Modelcar]

Supermicha....Koto protocols, irrelevant.....I'm talking about our omission controls on our passenger cars...and even with them..big blocks and small multi-cam units we get performance from our engines now and decent fuel economies...What else do you want.

[dcgrosvold]

Wow! What a wild collection of opinions! Some good.. Some bad ('Mericans are stoopid...) Yeah, well. morons always have to mouth off.

Why do earopeans always stereotype Americans as the morons they see on Hollywood's kalidescope?

Supermicha -- how far is it across Germany? I mean - from end to end or top to bottom?

Have you ever traveled 2500 miles towing 4 horses, tack, and equipment? I have both - a small car - well relatively (I'm 6'1", 250 lbs,) that I drive to work (incidentally work's a 204-mile round trip commute every day.)

I have a truck - a Ford F250 6.3L V10 for pulling horse trailers and hauling feed, hay, water, plywood (yeah - a model railroad,) fence posts, and whatever else is required to care for livestock, and land.

No - I'm not a rancher by trade - it takes too much land and not enough return any more - that's where the big corporations can operate. I'm a network engineer - specializing in 802.11 wireless devices - BUT I also have a small ranch because I love the lifestyle - and my family loves it. So I drive a long ways every day to make a living to provide that which my family loves. Big cars? We just have what we need.

If I lived in Europe, I don't imagine I would have to travel more than 5 minutes to get to work, the market, etc. even if I did have livestock. In fact, I'd probably have to lead my little cart into town with a couple of oxen to get my feed, and haul the water up from a little well with a bucket, right? Or is that stereotyping too?

[:D]

-- Dave

[Anonymous]

my car:

well, i am almost always behind the wheel of a Peterbuilt 387 with a 475 Cat engine and an Eaton 10 speed tranny, pulling a 53 foot refrigerated trailer. when you have things like that wandering the interstates, most people want bigger cars and SUV's to make them feel safer, even tho there is not really any reason for it. 80% of all fatal car/18 wheeler accidents are the fault of the car.


but when i am at home i drive a Dodge ram pickup truck. why you may ask? because it is pretty hard to stuff a bunch of 12 foot surf fishing rods, coolers, and other fishing gear in a mazda or toyota compact car[:D]

and how am i gonna haul all the 4x8 sheets of plywood i need for my model railroad if i didnt have my long bed pickup?


SHORT BED PICKUPS SUCK!!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 440cuin

Ya man, a big old Oldsmobile!
Actualy I find the 383 is fairly good on gas and some "seem" as strong as the 440. The Buick 455 puts you back in the seat too, but it's also bad on gas, but reliable. My buddy had a 72 Cutlas with a 350, it was mint condition, but you know what? it was uncomfortable to sit in even though it is not a tiny car, I raced against him with my BIG BLACK RUSTY 71 IMPERIAL WITH 440 and I would blow him away every time from start or on the highway with him and his cute sister in his car, I was laughing "gutless cutless", But how can 350 cubic inches be so weak? And what's the deal with viynal roof? what crap. And automatic transmitions, even today's newer vehicles with 4wd, always pushing for automatic, sure standards exist, but always hard to come by on American cars.
What I NEED is a 440 with an A833 4-speed!! But seriously some American cars are fun, but most are kind of crappy, even newer vehicles, poor build quality, bad handeling, cheesy details, and big and clumsy, compared to the more "refined and tighter" import cars.

Yea I totally agree that the newer american stuff is crappy. I definatly dislike cars made in the 80's for a multitude of reasons. The 90's were not much better. Although there seems to be some improvements these days, only time will tell.
And about automatics, I hate em. I'll take a manual any day for several reasons. The main one being reliability. I worked in a transmission shop for a while. I learned quite a bit about automatic trannys doing rebuilds, But not manuals. Why? because they don't break down. Shure the clutches wear out, thats to be expected, but a gearbox failure is rare. To give you an idea of what I mean, for every 1000 automatics that came through that shop there would be 1 or 2 manuals. Speaks volumes.

[Anonymous]

Ill tell you why we like big cars.

Little cars do not hold up to the vast expanses of our country. There are literally thousands of miles of roads that are rough and need a durable vehicle.

In Speed Limit question, the majority of our drivers are not trained to your exacting German standards. No offense to our American Driver but half may be unfit for high speed and skid recovery due to the fact that we do not train for this.

Drivers class in our schools run for several weeks and we gain a license at completion. It is no where near the professionalism of your German Schools.

I speak as a Professional Driver with 16 years in a Heavy Commercial Vehicle and having seen basically every thing there is.

I still take joy in fast cars but need room to run em and not necessarily the Law either. =)

Enjoy!

[Anonymous]

Well Micha, I have a big GMC Surburban with a 7 liter V-8 and I'm hating life right now with gas prices as high as they are now. It only gets 9 mpg.

[CG9602]

Here's my take on why some USAmericans enjoy their big cars: In Europe, and in several other parts of the world (most other places, as a matter of fact) the elected representatives of the local citizenry tax the living daylights out of the gas tax. There are certain countries the governemtns of which have decided that it isn't in their national interest to be so heavily depenedent upon natural resources that come from unstable areas that are riddled with religious strife. Some countries also can't afford to or are unwilling to prop up regiemes that oppress their own citizens in the name of cheap oil. Most other countries gas prices are nowhere near as cheap as it is here in the USA. For example:
(gas price - $ per gallon in 2003)

Hong Kong 5.34
London, England 4.55
Paris, France 4.41
Amsterdam, Netherlands 4.38
Seoul, S. Korea 4.35
Copenhagen, Denmark 4.24
Tokyo, Japan 4.20
Milan, Italy 4.14
Oslo, Norway 4.13
Frankfurt, Germany 4.00

Yes, those are in US $.

The vehicle is as much about lifestyle as it is about just getting around. If folks were just concerned about getting around, we would all be driving Prisms ( I have one of these. Very low maintenance, great MPG. Also I have no problem driving in it, and I'm over 6 ft tall).

One more note: Auto makers have been muti-national corporations for over a decade now, there is no such thing as a "Japanese" or "German" or " American" (read: Canadian or Mexican) car anymore, especially when Hondas and Mitsubishi have been making them in the US for 15 years or more. Same with the BMWs: BMW has an assembly plant in the Carolinas. For all of these companies, the parts come from all over the world. One of the largest Toyota plants is located in (guess where) Louisville KY, and many Nissans are assembled in CA.

Back to the original question: Do USAmericans "need" big cars? In Europe, many of the roads and cities were originally built when one had no other choice to get around other than walking or riding horseback. The Streets and buildings didn't need to be that wide. The end result is that unless you want to do a lot of expensive demolition and re-construction, you have to have smaller cars just to get around in those side streets. The typical SUV just will not manuver in such tight circumstances. Then there is alos the super high gas prices ( and fuel taxes) on top of that. You also have the US cultural concept of personal space. Each person's idea of personal space is more larger than in other countries/cultures. Americans are just accustomed to having more personal space compared to other countries and cultures.

There is also the (Salient, IMO) statement that many Americans, including the women, are tryng to make up for some ( how shall I put this politely?) shortcomings and inadequacies.

Some Americans don't need enormous beached whales, its just that the lifestyle that we desire and are led to enjoy makes such things almost mandatory.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

One of the BEST cars I ever owned I purchased used. It was a 1978 Delta 88 Royale. It had over 100,000 miles on it when I got it. I put another 100,000 on it. I never needed any major rework on the engine. I sold the car for one dollar to someone who badly needed a car but couldn't afford to buy anything.

It makes me sad that you can no longer buy a nice large Olds anymore. They were excellent cars. I loved mine to death. I am not a Pontiac fan and my family traditionally has a ton of trouble with Chevys. I also don't care much for Buicks. So GM's future as far as this driver is concerned doesn't look good. Give me a Lincoln over a Caddy anyday. [;)] [:D]

I still drive a 1990 Delta 88, my mom bought it 2nd hand with about 75 000KM on it, then gave it to me, it's now got about 270 000KM on it.

I tell you it's gotta be the smoothest ride I've ever had, it feels like the thing just glides over the pavement, you really feel like you're floating when you get out on the highway.

Regular oil changes, and I've yet to have any major problems with it (knock on wood).

My dad recently bough one of those small trackers, and I tell you that thing has nothing on the olds......it seems like you can really glide a lot on the oldsmobile (take the foot off the petal and still be moving), and save on fuel, yet when you take your foot off the gas in that tracker the thing slows down immediately, no momentum play.

My goal is a million KMs........

[vsmith]

I was shocked when I read the fuel requirements and dam near cussed out the salesperson! Turns out EVERY BMW requires super, they've never heard of regular unleaded in Bavaria i guess.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Once the renovation stuff is done I plan to trade in for a smaller fuel efficient car, I would like a MiniCooper but some true idiot at BMWs brain trust decided it would be a great idea if the mini run on super unleaded which is 40% more expensive. i'd like to smack that idiot upside the head. We aslo have a Toyota MR2 that we used to carpool to work and I have a '71 Honda N600 minicar that I'm going to restore. If I hit the lotto, I'll have a stable of mini cars, MG Midget, Fiat 500, AC Mini, BMW Isetta, All would be there.[8D]

And we were just looking at Mini's online last night. Going to put one in the back of the Suburban..like a Captains Gig. We can anchor the Suburban out in far parking lot and drive the Mini in close to the door at the mall. [:)]

My 4Runner gets awful mileage and commuting 70 miles a day........ Didn't know about the high test..kinda defeats the cost benefit analysis I was feeding my wife.....

Like most folks we could probably make do with a smaller car...talking about the Suburban..but why make do..it fits our lifestyle and allows us the freedom to do what we want. Now that is worth going and beating up third world countries for oil.

[Anonymous]

One of the BEST cars I ever owned I purchased used. It was a 1978 Delta 88 Royale. It had over 100,000 miles on it when I got it. I put another 100,000 on it. I never needed any major rework on the engine. I sold the car for one dollar to someone who badly needed a car but couldn't afford to buy anything.

It makes me sad that you can no longer buy a nice large Olds anymore. They were excellent cars. I loved mine to death. I am not a Pontiac fan and my family traditionally has a ton of trouble with Chevys. I also don't care much for Buicks. So GM's future as far as this driver is concerned doesn't look good. Give me a Lincoln over a Caddy anyday. [;)] [:D]

[vsmith]

The answer's are simple.

American's are stupid and have small slacker's.

There Stupid. Otherwise how do you explain all the Ford Excrements and Exploders clogging the freeways here in LA with only one person in them, The idiots driving 1/4 a block to the store instead of walking to buy a 6-pack of Spudwieser ( the beer that made Idaho famous). How else do you explain people who buy a giant 9mpg Chevy Sloburban and then female dog about how much it costs to fill it at the pump (i have experienced this)

They have small slacker's. Otherwise how do you explain the idiots who buy a truck that already almost 7 feet high then put a lift kit and tractor tires onto it to make it 11 feet tall, scraping overpasses and falling over at the sightest curves.

Americans are stupid and have small wankers, my final proof positive of this...
how else do you explain the popularity of the Hummer monster cars?

People in this country will not change until prices hit $5 a gallon. But whats one of the most populer new cars out here? The new Hybrids by Toyota and Honda! so there is hope. American cars have been crap since 1972! Theyve gotten slightly less crappier in 90's but are still inferior to the Japanese cars, But I feel they are getting better that the Euro cars.

My first car was a VW bug that i put about 100,000 miles onto a car that already had 60,000 miles. I had a '71 Nova hand me down in college after the bug finally died , I hated it, 10 mpg, uncomfortable and ugly interior. Next was a Honda Civic, that I put 140,000 onto, Then I got a Suzuki Samurai that was the best car i ever had, 10 years 160,000 miles ranged from No Cal east to Texas and eastern Mexico and down to Baja Ca. I'm 6-1 250lbs and I fit fine in it. I now have a V6 Nissan Frontier Crewcab pickup because I needed a sedan and a pickup to carry construction materials, it get 20mpg which is considered very good for a truck but i'm not happy with the milage I would have prefered a 4banger but it wasnt offered in the crewcab version. I almost got a Scion Xb but its limited suspension nixed it. Once the renovation stuff is done I plan to trade in for a smaller fuel efficient car, I would like a MiniCooper but some true idiot at BMWs brain trust decided it would be a great idea if the mini run on super unleaded which is 40% more expensive. i'd like to smack that idiot upside the head. We aslo have a Toyota MR2 that we used to carpool to work and I have a '71 Honda N600 minicar that I'm going to restore. If I hit the lotto, I'll have a stable of mini cars, MG Midget, Fiat 500, AC Mini, BMW Isetta, All would be there.[8D]

[Anonymous]

We drive an '85 Lincoln Towncar. The thing's huge and I love it! We used to drive a green Towncar from '88 before that, but it got wrecked in an accident. Before that we had a blue Towncar (not sure what year) that we sold when I was like 5 years old. We also have a '99 Ford F-150, which is also quite large. My dad's always had 2 Ford trucks-an automatic for summer and a standard for winter. But now that he's got this one (just traded it in for the standard a few months ago), we're going to have only one truck. I've always loved big cars, I guess probably because I always grew up with big cars. To me a car should have some power and size to it. My mom says that I shouldn't get a big car because it's not practical for city driving when I go to university, but I still want one anyway. It's kind of more of an image thing more so than practicality for me.

[TH&B]

Modelcar; ya but only in California wich is the strictest in the US, a California engine is usualy different then the rest, Cal is a world of its own. Much of the country now has emision teasting but the factory specs are even tougher in Europe.
Another crappy example is the Jeep Cherokees! I hear they are even popular in Europe as American cars go, but it's a top heavy, crowded, gas guzzeling poor quality car. I drive one at work and I drove my buddies and they were both crap. If you wanna go off road, remember the vw bug, set it up like a dune buggy and go. Look at the way small Imports drive in the ralies, big clumsy hi horse power American 4x4's can't keep up with that. Some suped-turbo 4 bangers have the hp of a nascar engine. Like I said though, I love the old 440 (wich is an historic engine anyways) but I know better that European and Japanese vehicles are much better in almost every way in todays cars.......
technicaly that is.

[Supermicha]

QUOTE: They have honed them to the point we can now get high performance out of our power plants and still pass omission regs.

If that is real, why did the USA quits the Kyoto protocolls? [:0]

[Modelcar]

Supermica....We do have strict pollution regulations that pertain to our vehicles...since about 1968 we've been using various systems on our engines to counteract unwanted pollutants.....They have honed them to the point we can now get high performance out of our power plants and still pass omission regs.

[Modelcar]

M636C....It really seems strange to hear of a car with a 3.8L Buick engine being a gas hog....That engine in this country is used in many applications and has been around since about 1961 has a great reputation for being great on low fuel consumption.
We here in the states have just started to get a great variant of one of your GM cars to make our GTO once again...and with the Corvette great LT-1 in it....and I understand your country makes several rear wheel drive vehicles with a version of that power plant for use in your country.
Years ago we used to acquire different Aussie cars to work with here at my Co. in our engineering lab for power train work...Falcon, and another with a Cossworth turbo 4 in it....forgot the name now....related to Mercury, etc....
I agree with 440ci that large American cars used to be poor handlers...but now one can choose what ever kind of vehicle is required....IT IS available here to do what you want to do with it....Pickup trucks too....But not all made here.

[Supermicha]

Oh, i startet a hot discussion i think. You all are right. Big Cars are cool. If i had the money, i also would buy an Ford F150 or something else. But with our high gas prices here, its nearly impossible to drive a car with such a big engine.

The other problem are the laws. We have very strong pollution laws for cars here, so with a big engine you must pay much more.
So with my little 75 hp car (its a Van, so i have also enough space), i can save money and the nature, because it makes a low pollution. I don´t think that some of you with an 5.2 litre engine can say that!
Please allow me to be critical, but i think you can be lucky that your government has so "easy" traffic and pollution laws! Or not?

Somebody said, a big car is safer. Yes, sometimes. But when i have a crash with 120 mph, it never minds as you are in a big or small car!

From my own experience i know, that the driver get more aggressive when driving a big and not a small car!

Micha

[daveklepper]

Didn't see any mention of hybrids. Maybe Stokerk's new Fird might be one? Dave

[greyhounds]

I guess it all boils down to the fact that we obtain the vehicles that best fit our individual life styles and incomes. It's called Freedom. Rent 'em, own 'em, restore 'em. They're what we choose for ourselves.

Ken Strawbridge

[TH&B]

Ya man, a big old Oldsmobile!
Actualy I find the 383 is fairly good on gas and some "seem" as strong as the 440. The Buick 455 puts you back in the seat too, but it's also bad on gas, but reliable. My buddy had a 72 Cutlas with a 350, it was mint condition, but you know what? it was uncomfortable to sit in even though it is not a tiny car, I raced against him with my BIG BLACK RUSTY 71 IMPERIAL WITH 440 and I would blow him away every time from start or on the highway with him and his cute sister in his car, I was laughing "gutless cutless", But how can 350 cubic inches be so weak? And what's the deal with viynal roof? what crap. And automatic transmitions, even today's newer vehicles with 4wd, always pushing for automatic, sure standards exist, but always hard to come by on American cars.
What I NEED is a 440 with an A833 4-speed!! But seriously some American cars are fun, but most are kind of crappy, even newer vehicles, poor build quality, bad handeling, cheesy details, and big and clumsy, compared to the more "refined and tighter" import cars.

[Anonymous]

440cuin , I'm glad to hear that you love em'. I know most are real gas hogs. But don't ya love being sucked back in the seat when your right foot hits the floor ? I know I do.
But not all big blocks are big pigs. i know most of you wont belive this, but I had a 79 Olds 98 with a 403 that had headers an flowmasters that could get 35 MPG. That is when I kept my foot out of the throttle. The beauty of it was the other end, I could get that 5800Lb. pig to do 140 MPH if I wanted to. The great thing was it was up to me wheather I wanted mileage or speed. A lot depends on how you drive.

[dharmon]

Soccer mom in our house used to have to drive 1/4 mile of gravel road in Maine winters..4wd...manditory...any vehicle that weighs 6300 lbs has to be able to extract itself......................I've used 4wd on vehicles more than most...and not in recreation.....well okay a little...

[Anonymous]

....last I heard there are now more non-cars on the road in the US than cars.

Pretty weird.

I always do have a little laugh when I think about the stereotypical soccer mom driving the 4x4 supersized extended SUV that never goes anywhere other than home to soccer to the grocery store and back.

Whatever happened to the station wagon?

[JoeKoh]

Cars?How about a Van? We need the matt mobile because of all the stuff ya haul around when ya have kids(and i know someday grandkids). Got a loaner while the van windshield was being replaced under warranty.need more space.
stay safe
joe

[TH&B]

Well I love the old American big block cars, but that is mostly for centimental reasons (kind of like steam trains and F-units and 6 axled passenger cars), and I've owned and barowed and worked on enough cars to notice the the differences. As much as I love the carburated 440, it sure is an impractical gas hog.

[Anonymous]

I don't know about all Americans but I suppose some American railfans like big cars because the zoning laws in their neighborhoods won't allow them to keep a locomotive on the property. I heard that when Otto Kuhler was with the German army in Belgium in World War I he would fire up a locomotive to go take his girlfriend on a date.

[Anonymous]

Well at 6'-4" 224lbs. It gets a little cramped in a smaller vehicle, My first vehicle was a Toyota pickup, & it was very cramped. I now have a 1 ton 4x4 Chevy dualy cab & a half with a 454 under the hood. Basically a gas hog but it pays for itself. I need the power & durability to pull a 12,000 lb. 40' horse trailer. I also cut trees & plow snow for a side job on my own . So you can see why I need a big vehicle. & I realy don't care if my vehicles can go over 100 mph. My next will have a diesel under the hood & I am switching to Ford. Due to Chevys "Mechanical Reasons" PS; The mobility sure is nice, Need to tow or haul something,. no problem, Even pulled a tractor trailer truck out of a ditch with it , Let's see your Audi do that............All in fun.......Have a good day.

[Anonymous]

440cuin, I think it's funny that someone with that handle would call american cars crap.
I wonder why you have that handle and have that opinion.
and yes in Montana during daylight hours and out on the open interstate there is no set speed limit. I believe the law says "drive no faster than safe" just like Nevada used to be.

[TH&B]

Big American cars are crap!! I know because I drive a realy big one, I always do because they are cheap to buy used, because American cars depreciate fast enough for me, and then I buy it cheap and run it into the ground and then dump it. I do not believe they are safe because they have bad handling compared to small European cars. Gas is cheap over here partly because it's less taxed but also because it's brewed cheaper and it's dirtier and polutes more then European gas. American tires are crap too. BUT you get more fun per gallon of gas in these crappy monster cars and trucks, so I do enjoy myself.
Many smaller European cars are faster (at least in top speed) and more solid, even the VW DTI diesel turbo is fast and great on "gas".
-I beleive though that in Montana there are some roads with no speed limit certain areas.

[rixflix]

Take The Train Instead!!!
Happy Motoring.
Since I live in downtown Washington DC, it's crazy to own a car at all!!!
When I need a car or a truck I just rent the thing.
Saves having to buy, park, maintain, insure, secure, license, and generally fuss over something that ought to be a minor part of my life. For some people here in the States THE CAR(S) are not just means of transport, but expressions of how they live and
Rick spend, feel about themselves and appear to others. If, as Bob Dylan said, "The geometry of innocence is flesh on the bone", then we are a big fat nation with vague feelings of inadequacy that cause us to compensate with more and bigger stuff.
Why are people buying all these tough-lookig sneaker styled, bunched up, butt-ugly cars? I'll tell you when I know.
Good night.
Rick

[dharmon]

I have three cars right now...

A 10 year old Toyota 4Runner that carries me to work everyday.....it used to be the family car before the kids got big......It was great when we lived overseas (Europe)..took it everywhere..narrow enough to navigate European cites and enough ground clearance to pass by the Euro..cars when the puddles got more than 3 " deep. (Though I did have my combat 1980 BMW when we were there...a true warrior..power nothing....and fast...)But its paid for and I have a son nearing driving age...I don't think it qualifies as big though.

The other car...the Suburban...the required item for a family that 1) likes to hunt/camp/ski/etc..., 2) has trailers for toys/beds to pull, 3) has canoes/kayaks to toss on the top 4) has two kids that cannot be allowed to touch each other or look out the other's window and 5) has two dogs that go too....one of which that weighs 150 lbs....got to be able to carry all of the above.....not many vehicles made in Japan or Europe (Unimog maybe) gonna fit the bill....

And the last is the 1970 Chevy Pick-Up.......need I say more about that...I need to find a good 8 track to put in it though????

[M636C]

Guys,

This has been an interesting thread for an Australian. We have a country the size of the contiguous United States (that's me trying to say that I'm leaving you out, Alaskaman, but only because you live in a big state that spoils my comparison) but with about twenty million people total, about one twentieth of the US poulation.

This means we have really long distances with very few people and very few good roads, and for many years, big, relatively simple (front emgine rear drive) cars have been very popular. American cars were very popular here until about 1960, when the big cars became impractical. The compact cars of that time, the Ford Falcon and Plymouth Valiant were introduced and local derivatives of these have been most poular since then. My own car is the GM equivalent, a German Opel (Omega. I think) body modified to take a 3.8 litre Buick engine imported from the USA. These cars are criticised for their high fuel consumption, but they are good for long trips on medium to poor roads.

To get almost back on topic, I was out yesterday (Saturday) chasing two special trains with Alco cab units. One was a transformer wagon being transferred to a museum heading North, and the other was four passenger cars and a 4-4-0 (in steam) being brought South. I picked my spot right, and only waited ten minutes between them. Later I saw more Alcos on a container train. (This was run by a small operator, and one of the units had to be brought out of storage.) I saw the most amazing smoke screen from that last two units after a long down grade followed by a sharp climb).

But when I got home, I'd driven 250 miles, a lot on secondary roads, but all sealed roads. No real need for a 4x4, but a really small European car would have seemed very cramped by sundown.

Peter

[Anonymous]

I agree with mudchicken on longevity. I own 3 american cars, all made in the 60's, and between them have over a million miles on them. I have only done a major rebuild on one, and the rest have only had minor work done on them.

[edblysard]

Mica,
Own a British car, a MGB, three of them in fact.
After I figured out all the electrical problems, and replaced that ...thing... the British call a SU carb with Weber two stage down draft, they run great, 4clys, 110 cubic inches five speed tranny..
Love em.
But heres the rub.
I got married, and now have three kids.
Now, I could fit the littlest in the trunk, cram one in the back where the top folds down into, and let the other one hang on the roll bar, with my wife riding shotgun, but I think the local cops wouldnt take that too well.

I own a Jeep Wrangler, 4WD, 4 clys, 2.5 L, five speed.
Will run all day long at 75mph. Great on gas, well, as great as a square car can be.
And the great part, if I run out of road, so what!
"We dont need no stinking roads"

Wife has one of those SUVs, a Dodge durango, because it has three full seats, will hold all the junk five people need to go camping with, will run at 100mph no sweat, loaded down.
Trailer hitch too.
Dont think your Audi would do to well hauling a boat, or a loaded horse trailer....
Starting to get the picture?
We have different lifestyles, with different needs than most Europeans.
Distances are greater, loads different, needs different.
Ed

[Modelcar]

Jamie....Yes, I understand the engine you have is "real" horsepower....I've had 2 full size Chevy's in the past with that engine family...one a 402 and one a 427ci and those babies put out the torque. Rat motor..! Believe your verson is a 454.

[mudchicken]

Larger engines do not suffer the stresses and strains that smaller engines do...they tend to last longer....

Micha....your driving habits and distances are much shorter than ours tend to be...your population density is much higher than ours (except for parts of the coasts), our fuel costs are still less...the basic conditions in both places are NOT the same...

Wife used to own a 4-cylinder Volvo 240DL, OK for running errands in town, but absolute torture to ride in during a 600-1200 mile trip. The thing also was gutless to the point that it could not get out of its own way at the altitudes here (4000-9000 feet above sea level). Also with our gasoline, it is not as well filtered as what europe expects. The Volvo was forever going through clogged fuel filters or not running right. Observation here is that european folks expect their cars to be in the assumed position in the shop for normal preventative maintenance much more often than what north americans do.

TomTrain pretty well hit the high points. Especially that many of us here are not the midgets that the european and japanese designers are targeting.

(At work, my pickup truck is an 8-cylinder, 3/4 ton machine because the smaller trucks do not survive as well in a railroad environment where you average 40-60,000 miles a year in adverse conditions with little downtime allowed ......sort of explains also why Sulzer's diesel locomotive engines failed here as well)

Mudchicken

PS...Speed limit here is 75MPH[:D][:D][:D].....Fewer people falling asleep on long trips then at 55mph....

[csxengineer98]

BECOUSE ITS OUR GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO HAVE AS BIG A CAR AS WE WANT... IF YOU GOT THE CASH...WHY BUY A GEO METRO WHEN YOU CAN HAVE A STRECH H2...
but then agin... if you feel unsafe on the road in your small car... just drive defensivaly...buy a TANK
csx engineer

[jchnhtfd]

Just another response... I need, on occasion, a big truck to haul 'stuff' -- including a 5,000 pound horse trailer. My solution? A Chevy K2500, crew cab, 8' bed, 7.4 litre engine, 230 real horse power, automatic, four wheel drive. Lousy gas mileage. I drive it to work. I'd love to drive a 'little' car (I lust after the Honda hybrid Civic -- there's no accounting for tastes, guys!). Why don't I get one to drive to work? Can't afford it. I can only afford to own one vehicle, and since I need the truck on occasion (can you see a Honda Civic towing a horse trailer, or bringing back 3,000 pounds of gravel to the farm? Neither can I...) I own a truck. I also happen to have a CDL, so presumably I know how to drive the thing.

I have to agree, however, that if you don't need one, but just want one for size, it's a little questionable -- particularly if you have no clue as to how to drive somethng that size (and most folks don't seem to). As tomtrain pointed out, though, a lot of the drive for the SUV and minivan came from the legislation on gas mileage, which killed the station wagon, which a lot of folks had and loved.

[Anonymous]

Oh yea, And out here in the west there are plenty of places where speed limit is determined by how bold you are / how fast your car will go. Of course the speed limit by law is 75 MPH in Nevada and 70 in California, but the area is so vast in some places that the chances of seeing another car are slim ,and chances it's a cop are almost none.
As for myself I can't stand small cars. Just this morning I went on a 250mile trip with my dad in his Ford Ranger and I'm still sore from being cooped up. Give me a full size car / truck any day. And I don't care if I have to pay a few dollars more in gas to be comfortable.

[Anonymous]

More power, more room, more cargo area, more towing capy., .....shall I go on ?

[Anonymous]

There are many people who buy a big SUV just to own that type of vehicle, and never really use the capacity and power.

I own a V6 car, and it is very powerful and nice to drive. I didn't want a four cylinder because they are too slow when passing. I don't really need the v6, but it is only 2.7L and it gets 30mpg in a 4500 lb car. Not bad.

My last vehicle was a toyota truck. It had the 4 cylinder 22r-e engine. I had slightly bigger tires, but only maybe an inch or two bigger. It did not have enough power. I had to hold the pedal down most of the way to cruise at 70. Any hills required dropping a gear and not being able to drive 55.

Maybe they rate horsepower different over there. They rate the engine horsepower here, not the power to the ground. Drawbar HP on a tractor is an example of this. My car has a 200 HP engine, and a JD 4020 puts out about 100. On paper, my car is much more powerful. Try hooking them up end to end. Even if my car had enough traction, the tractor would easily drag it backwards. Part of this is gearing, but power is work divided by time. A tractor might pull something that weighs 50,000 lbs 5 feet in one second. This would be the same as a 5,000 lb object moving 50 feet in one second, so it should all relate back to each other.

[Anonymous]

I am 5' 10" and 220 not skinny and not overweight (maybe just a little) but trying to make a trip of 3 or 4 hours in a small car is just not comfortable by any means. My pickup is a 4 cyc. It most definately IS NOT overpowered. [}:)] [;)]

I cannot pull a hill with the a/c on without dropping down a gear. So it most definately is not your gas hog on the road. [:0]

[Modelcar]

...Yes we Americans love our vehicles....and a good many Germans must like lots of horsepower too..re: Mercedes with 2.3, 3.2, 5.0L engines, etc.....And as stated above we have many miles of interstates of 65 and 70 mph speed limits and out west some highter. Many of us like horsepower to have to use when one might need it in passing and just feeling the power moving away from the stoplight. In my case I drive as my daily dirver around town...a small pick up with 180 hp and 245 '# of torque and an automobile [Lexus], at 200 hp and 214 '# of torque....and that makes it cruise at any speed you care to drive. We just happen to like our cars...

[BaltACD]

I can only speak for myself.

I own a 235hp SUV that I use to tow a trailer to support my hobby of Sports Car Racing. I need the SUV cargo capacity for the tools and accessory equipment, I need the horsepower and torque from the engine to hold the trailer at cruising speeds of 70 MPH (which are legal on most Interstates). As a toy car (different from the race car) I have a 2..0L 4cyl Sports Car that puts out about 96hp. A fun car but not capabile of the utility functions that the SUV performs.

Supermicha - don't know if you have ever seen the TV show 'Home Improvement'. If you have Tim Allen's role is a near portrait of the American mentality on all things that move, be they tools or vehicles....
MORE POWER!

[tree68]

Believe it or not there are huge numbers of 4 bangers running around the country, comparable in size to your Audi. A lot of them won't do 100 either.

My full sized pickup, on the other hand, has a V6. I'd have to check the actual HP, but it's not overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. Why a big vehicle for just me? As a fire chief and EMT, I carry a lot of "stuff." Your Audi would be quite full.

Where are the high HP engines? Mostly trucks and sports cars. And we just can't let go of our muscle cars and SUVs.