Reports over on that other site are saying that the engineer sent a text message to some railfans which was received a minute before the collision. That would be borne out rather easily upon investigation, if true.
That bodes no good to anyone--fans or railroaders.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Do Metrolink trains still run backwards sometimes, with the locomotive pushing?
Although it is not the case here, what if these trains had collided while the Metrolink train was being pushed? Would the loss of life have been a lot worse with more than one car telescoped?
www.oakhurstrailroad.com
"Oakhurst Railroad" on Facebook
jeaton wrote: The photos show that the engine telescoped almost halfway into the first car. It seems to me that once the heavier and somewhat smaller object (the engine) breaks through the front bulkhead of the passenger car, there is little structure to slow the movement of the engine into the car. I'm not going to pretend to be a mechanical engineer, but I can't envision any design that would overcome that particular problem other than having the end of the car built like a tank. Then, as RWM notes, the sudden decelaration of the entire train would probably produce many more fatalities.The photos seem to indicate little damage to the second and third car, so it would appear that most of the collision force was absorbed by the head car. Along that line, I suspect the NTSB will try to track the location of the injuries or fatalities as part of the development of any recommendations to improve safety.As a side note, in recent rides on Chicago Metra line off rush trains, I have noted that the lead car on the trains have been locked off to passengers. They are probably open as needed during rush hours, but I think I would rather take a seat a car or two back from the head end.
The photos show that the engine telescoped almost halfway into the first car. It seems to me that once the heavier and somewhat smaller object (the engine) breaks through the front bulkhead of the passenger car, there is little structure to slow the movement of the engine into the car. I'm not going to pretend to be a mechanical engineer, but I can't envision any design that would overcome that particular problem other than having the end of the car built like a tank. Then, as RWM notes, the sudden decelaration of the entire train would probably produce many more fatalities.
The photos seem to indicate little damage to the second and third car, so it would appear that most of the collision force was absorbed by the head car. Along that line, I suspect the NTSB will try to track the location of the injuries or fatalities as part of the development of any recommendations to improve safety.
As a side note, in recent rides on Chicago Metra line off rush trains, I have noted that the lead car on the trains have been locked off to passengers. They are probably open as needed during rush hours, but I think I would rather take a seat a car or two back from the head end.
It seems then that instead of making the cars rigid enough to stand the impact and worrying that human bodies will not be, perhaps it is more practical to build a "crushing block" car that sits between the locomotive and the passenger cars which would, in the case of a wreck, disfigure and crush to absorb the shock from the engine and cars hopefully preventing the telescoping effect.
How long it would take NTSB to determine the outcome of the investigation?
You're going to have to await toxicology tests and other investigation, this could take weeks. It will take longer if the event recorders do indeed turn up to be unusable.
An observation here - it was reported that the UP train had 4 crew on it and they suffered minor injuries at worst. Considering the forces involved here, and looking at the relative light damage of the locomotives on that train, that says a lot about the build and construction of the SD70ACe and incident survivability.
Oakhurst Railroad Engineer wrote:Do Metrolink trains still run backwards sometimes, with the locomotive pushing?
Yes, Metrolink trains do run in push mode, as do other passenger trains (Coaster commuter in San Diego and Amtrak's Pacific Surfliner, Capitol Corridor and San Joaquins).
In the aftermath of the Metrolink Glendale collision of 2005, Metrolink roped off some of the seats near the front of the cab car. I don't know if this is the case on every Metrolink train in push mode, though.
silicon212 wrote: How long it would take NTSB to determine the outcome of the investigation?You're going to have to await toxicology tests and other investigation, this could take weeks. It will take longer if the event recorders do indeed turn up to be unusable.An observation here - it was reported that the UP train had 4 crew on it and they suffered minor injuries at worst. Considering the forces involved here, and looking at the relative light damage of the locomotives on that train, that says a lot about the build and construction of the SD70ACe and incident survivability.
I am just curious to why Metrolink state, "their engineer ran a stop light". If the investigation is completed.
Awesome wrote: silicon212 wrote: How long it would take NTSB to determine the outcome of the investigation?You're going to have to await toxicology tests and other investigation, this could take weeks. It will take longer if the event recorders do indeed turn up to be unusable.An observation here - it was reported that the UP train had 4 crew on it and they suffered minor injuries at worst. Considering the forces involved here, and looking at the relative light damage of the locomotives on that train, that says a lot about the build and construction of the SD70ACe and incident survivability.I am just curious to why Metrolink state, "their engineer ran a stop light". If the investigation is completed.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Oakhurst Railroad Engineer wrote: Do Metrolink trains still run backwards sometimes, with the locomotive pushing? Although it is not the case here, what if these trains had collided while the Metrolink train was being pushed? Would the loss of life have been a lot worse with more than one car telescoped?
Looks to me like the damage done running loco first is the same as loco pushig with cab car leading. The pulling loco just got rammed into leading coach where the lead loco of the freight might have been. The pulling loco is coupled to the train so it has realy nowhere to go but telescope.
silicon212 wrote:An observation here - it was reported that the UP train had 4 crew on it and they suffered minor injuries at worst. Considering the forces involved here, and looking at the relative light damage of the locomotives on that train, that says a lot about the build and construction of the SD70ACe and incident survivability.
blue streak 1 wrote:a question for RWM: Reading rule books I see the use of an advisory dwarf signal in advance of a signal is provided for. Is that used much anymore and how expensive is it to add that kind now. Also I"ve observed that Tri-Rail has regular signals at both ends of most stations, this being the result of the MARC/AMTRAK accident.
I am not sure what an advisory dwarf signal is. It's outside of my signal engineering experience, which is mostly GCOR and Chicago and west. It sounds to me like a repeater signal. There's a lot of people in the operating side who have qualms about repeater signals as they have led to some bad outcomes. Many of the repeater signals I knew of that were once in place have been removed.
It's a good idea to have an absolute leaving signal or an intermediate signal in plain view of the engineer at each platform stop. That avoids a habit setting in of "I've left this platform 2,430 times and every time that next signal around the corner has been green."
RWM
So this collision occured not at a siding switch with signal, but between two signalled sidings? Does anyone know the number of signals between these sidings? I ask because I now have two questions in my mind:
All this talk about the Metrolink operator running past a red, but what about the other train and operator? Also if there are a few signals between the two sidings, and APB logic is included, there should have been a 'tumble down' effect where once the first train passes the headblock signal and enters the track between two sidings, the APB sets all opposing signals down to the next (opposing) headblock signal to red.
I'm curious to know/see the track and signal 'schematic', wether APB logic is included or not, and (I guess we'll have to wait) what the signal aspect(s) for the other direction was.
Signaling is supposed to protect both directions, not one, so we should also be asking questions related to "what about the other direction".
Link that explains APB:
http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/abs_apb/index.html
The "updates" keep comming. Passed a Red Signal?? Don't they have Automatic Train Stop???
They have both the "Black Boxes" from Metrolink and UP. A 45 mph zone. They have the Video Recorder from the UP Locomotive cab. CNN is reporting the Metrolink should have held at Chatsworth. They also said they were investigateing "Cellphone/Text Messing" by the engineer???
NTSB should take about a year to publish.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
wyomingrailfan wrote: ridesteel wrote:my step-dad works for amtrak and is a huge railfan and has alot of friends in high places and he thinks that the engineer of metrolink 111 had either a siezure or heart attack and so does another metrolink conductor.possibly. but we won't know if that happened unless they do an autopsy.
ridesteel wrote:my step-dad works for amtrak and is a huge railfan and has alot of friends in high places and he thinks that the engineer of metrolink 111 had either a siezure or heart attack and so does another metrolink conductor.
I'd bet the farm that they do an autopsy given the horrible results of this crash (it may even be the law that an autopsy be done in such cases)...so we will definetly find out if the issue was one related to his health or if it was caused by substance abuse.
Yes, one man in the Metrolink cab, but, after 20 second the Alerter goes off, another 10 seconds the brakes apply! No indication that I have heard that the Metrolink was breaking.
Did the "Cab Signals" in the UP drop to RED when another train entered HIS block??
Did all the Signals facing the Metrolink go Red when the UP was cleared into the Single Track Blocks???
Did this train stop at Chatsworth???
When the train pulled out north on to the Signal track, did anyone on the platform see the signal???
NTSB has lots of questions to ask.
I think based on the information we've heard so far, it appears that Metrolink may have to implement three safety changes:
1) Replace the passenger car with cab controls with a true cab car, perhaps a retired EMD F40PH with its prime mover and tractor motors removed and replaced with a standard wheels, ballast weight on the frame and a reinforced cab for better survivability in an accident. I believe they're starting to do this on Chicago's METRA system.
2) Put in a warning system on the engineer's controls so that if the train approaches or goes into a Red block it gives off a very loud warning signal.
3) Implement some sort of automatic brake application system if a train approaches and goes into a Red block.
DMUinCT wrote:NTSB has lots of questions to ask.
Absoulty....like why was the UP train still (allegedly) proceeding at 30-40 MPH? (These are the speeds being reported.)
If the signaling system is working the way it should (assuming APB logic included), the UP engineer should have seen the last few signal(s) displaying a downgraded aspect (stop, slow to stop, etc, but not CLEAR). At that point in time, he should have brought his train to a stop, and thus we would/should have had a collision involving a stopped UP and a still rolling Metrolink, thus reducing impact speed, thus reducing the 'size' of the crash. However it seems that the UP train too was also rolling. Maybe the UP operator had indeed already begun the stopping process. Those are the types of questions the NTSB will be looking into.
Signalling systems protect against every conceivable scenario, and from what I have read, the 'full cause of this type of crash' has already been generalized by the media, and/or Metrolink, and/or public. Yes many questions still to be resolved.
DMUinCT wrote: Did the "Cab Signals" in the UP drop to RED when another train entered HIS block??
If I am not mistaken, "cab signals" are mainly used on UP's Central Corrider where cab signal territory is in effect. Metrolink rails have no code pulse that UP's inducting equipment could pick up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
From the photos, it looks like a GP40 or F40PH leading the Metrolink that was ramed back 1/3 of the way into the first car (the diesel roof fans show in roof shots of first car on its side). Second car damaged, 3rd and 4th OK???? That means the UP Ace locomotives did there job with an "armored" and "Isolated" cab.
You West Coasters, what does Metrolink use for power? Do they run Diesel Outbound and Cab Car Control Inbound as in the northeast (to keep the diesel smoke out of the station)?
It could still easily be that the UP train passed a clear (green) signal last. If he has passed a signal before the Metrolink train passed the red it would be too late and too short a time probably to stop. The line is curved sharply so even if signals are spaced closely they could easily be out of view.
If the metorlink train was clear in the siding the moment the UP passes the most previous signal he could have had CLEAR. If the Metrolink was on the main clear of the siding the UP would have been in the process of slowing to match the speed permited at the siding, the wieght of the freight may be too much to suddenly stop short. This accident may have happened quickly, less then a minute after passing the stop, giving little time for other crews (UP or dispatcher in this case) to discover and react.
Judging by the UP loco being tipped on it's side is probably what saved the crew, in train wrecks you're better off tipping over then telescoping. Why do people think cab cars are less safe then loco pulled trains when the loco pulling the train telescopes in on it's own train anyways ?
Some kind of ATS may have helped.
Unfortunatly it sounds like the engineer of the Metrolink was sending text messages to railfans in that area one minute before the collision happened, no I am not kidding. http://cbs2.com/local/Metrolink.Engineer.Text.2.817045.html
This is a terrible turn of events, hopefully it won't cause commuter railroads to think railfans are distractions. I wouldn't doubt Metrolink police hunting down this group of railfans that knew this engineer and getting them away from Metrolink tracks. Most railways don't even allow cell phones to be turned on unless it is railroad related business. In any case this engineer broke the rules and paid the price, and took 20+ people with him.
THB wrote: It could still easily be that the UP train passed a clear (green) signal last. If he has passed a signal before the Metrolink train passed the red it would be too late and too short a time probably to stop. The line is curved sharply so even if signals are spaced closely they could easily be out of view. ...
It could still easily be that the UP train passed a clear (green) signal last. If he has passed a signal before the Metrolink train passed the red it would be too late and too short a time probably to stop. The line is curved sharply so even if signals are spaced closely they could easily be out of view. ...
Since the point of impact is about 0.25 miles north of the switch for the siding in question, it would seem that the UP train had already passed the most recent signal before the MetroLink train ran the siding (if indeed that is what heppened). In fact, based on what I know of that area, the southbound signals for that control point (north end of the siding) may have just been coming into view or were already already in view for the UP train. I know the SB signals are to the left of the tracks for southbound trains along that curve. It may even be possible that the UP crew saw that signal as red or green dropping to red and was already taking action, although time will tell. All speculation and "educated guesses" at this time. Jamie
CLICK HERE FOR THE CSX DIXIE LINE BLOG
EJE818 wrote:Unfortunatly it sounds like the engineer of the Metrolink was sending text messages to railfans in that area one minute before the collision happened, no I am not kidding. http://cbs2.com/local/Metrolink.Engineer.Text.2.817045.html This is a terrible turn of events, hopefully it won't cause commuter railroads to think railfans are distractions. I wouldn't doubt Metrolink police hunting down this group of railfans that knew this engineer and getting them away from Metrolink tracks. Most railways don't even allow cell phones to be turned on unless it is railroad related business. In any case this engineer broke the rules and paid the price, and took 20+ people with him.
From the LA Times:
"KCBS-AM (740) reported Saturday that several teenage train aficionados said they had received a text message from the engineer shortly before the crash. The NTSB said it was treating the report with caution, noting that similar accounts had circulated after a crash in Boston but were found to be inaccurate."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHGruLvW_m4
According to this link, Metrolink officials don't know if there is an official policy on the use of cell phones by engineers on duty.
I don't it would be an easy for the UP to have his last passed signal showing clear (green). This exact type of scenario as been well thought out in signaling engineering. I've got to think some more about this, but I am starting to think UP would have seen a downgraded aspect, had begun slowing down, but like you said, not enough time. Gotta think this out some more.
The thing that seems wrong about your diagram is that the UP train is lined around the Metrolink train, so it gets a clear signal of some sort depending on track speed. Then if the Mertrolink train runs a red and the switch then it may be too late to drop the signal and even too late to stop the UP even if the UP could know what was up, but it's a curve and probaly little time.
They should at least have applied the emergency brake if there was no time to do anything else, but with a heavy freight, speed would drop slowly.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.