KingConrail76 wrote: Railway Man wrote:A unit train by definition is a trainload of a single commodity moving for a single shipper on a single waybill. Usually but not always the entire train is loaded at a single location and entirely unloaded at a single location, the notable exception being grain and sometimes coal, too.2-part question:Name the commodity, origin and destination (approximate will do), two competing railroads, and timeframe of the first regularly operated, commercial unit trains in the U.S., which ceased because something lower-cost was built to take its place.Name the commodity, origin and destination, railroad, and date of the first unit train operated in the U.S. with ICC approval, which began operating because something lower-cost (at least when this commodity was moved on single-car rates) was built to take its place. (Is this a Typo? something began because something took it's place???)Hint to steer you in the right direction -- income from one of these commodities built a university of gothic proportions, and the other commodity once flooded a market. RWM
Railway Man wrote:A unit train by definition is a trainload of a single commodity moving for a single shipper on a single waybill. Usually but not always the entire train is loaded at a single location and entirely unloaded at a single location, the notable exception being grain and sometimes coal, too.2-part question:Name the commodity, origin and destination (approximate will do), two competing railroads, and timeframe of the first regularly operated, commercial unit trains in the U.S., which ceased because something lower-cost was built to take its place.Name the commodity, origin and destination, railroad, and date of the first unit train operated in the U.S. with ICC approval, which began operating because something lower-cost (at least when this commodity was moved on single-car rates) was built to take its place. (Is this a Typo? something began because something took it's place???)Hint to steer you in the right direction -- income from one of these commodities built a university of gothic proportions, and the other commodity once flooded a market. RWM
A unit train by definition is a trainload of a single commodity moving for a single shipper on a single waybill. Usually but not always the entire train is loaded at a single location and entirely unloaded at a single location, the notable exception being grain and sometimes coal, too.
2-part question:
Name the commodity, origin and destination (approximate will do), two competing railroads, and timeframe of the first regularly operated, commercial unit trains in the U.S., which ceased because something lower-cost was built to take its place.
Name the commodity, origin and destination, railroad, and date of the first unit train operated in the U.S. with ICC approval, which began operating because something lower-cost (at least when this commodity was moved on single-car rates) was built to take its place. (Is this a Typo? something began because something took it's place???)
Hint to steer you in the right direction -- income from one of these commodities built a university of gothic proportions, and the other commodity once flooded a market.
RWM
Not a typo. Something lower cost was built to supersede the railroad, because the railroad cost, using single-car rates, was higher than the competing system. The railroad initiated the unit train to lower its costs beneath the competitor and keep the competitor out of the trade.
That is a very common occurance in transportation and business. A business model exists at cost X. A competitor deduces he can build a delivery system at cost X minus 1. The original business sees the competitor taking action, and devises something that costs X minus 2. In this case the railroad saw the competitor chewing into its traffic and convinced the ICC to allow it to offer unit-train rates in order to lower its costs below the competitor.
Murphy named commodity #1, Krazykat commodity #2. Good job.
Murph, since you're the only one willing to play along so far ...
Train #1 you need to go waaaaaay back. But you're thinking in the correct path.
Train #2 think of a commodity that LITERALLY flooded a market. Kind of a famous accident. When you have that Jay ought to be able to reach back into his way-back machine and tell you the railroad and the Origin-Destination.
If you think about it, there's nothing novel about unit trains. They simply require a shipper with a lot of a single commodity moving over and over between the same places. Those kinds of shippers weren't real common before the late 1800s, and about the time they became common the ICC got involved and forbade the practice. So what commodities moved in trainload volumes prior to the ICC? Maybe coal, maybe iron ore, maybe oil, but not grain. An really big elevator might have filled one trainload once a year but not over and over, and what shipper could have consumed it?
A stab at part 2: Illinois Central Railroad, grain from Chicago or thereabouts, to New Orleans, late 60's/early70's?
(The little man in my head thinks it's an eastern railroad, like Erie, sometime way before WW II. Since he can't type, I went with the guess above.)
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
KCSfan wrote:BINGO. You got both the railroads and the dates correct RWM so it's your turn to pose a question.Mark
BINGO. You got both the railroads and the dates correct RWM so it's your turn to pose a question.
Mark
Oh heck. That's hard. Umm, let's see. Something hardly anyone knows but could deduce if they thought about it. OK, here goes.
Name the commodity, origin and destination, railroad, and date of the first unit train operated in the U.S. with ICC approval, which began operating because something lower-cost (at least when this commodity was moved on single-car rates) was built to take its place.
Railway Man wrote: KCSfan wrote: OK here's the next question. Welded rail was first used in the US by a number of streetcar lines. Credit for the introduction of welded rail on US steam railroads is shared by two roads. What were the two railroads and the year that they first installed sections of welded rail?MarkAccording to William Hay, the first steam railways in the U.S. to install welded rail were Central of Georgia in a tunnel in 1930, and Delaware & Hudson in open-track in 1933, but street railways had made extensive use of it beginning in the early 1900s and European steam railways at the same time to some extent.First installation I know of in the West was in the Moffat Tunnel, 112lb in 1938. RWM
KCSfan wrote: OK here's the next question. Welded rail was first used in the US by a number of streetcar lines. Credit for the introduction of welded rail on US steam railroads is shared by two roads. What were the two railroads and the year that they first installed sections of welded rail?Mark
OK here's the next question. Welded rail was first used in the US by a number of streetcar lines. Credit for the introduction of welded rail on US steam railroads is shared by two roads. What were the two railroads and the year that they first installed sections of welded rail?
According to William Hay, the first steam railways in the U.S. to install welded rail were Central of Georgia in a tunnel in 1930, and Delaware & Hudson in open-track in 1933, but street railways had made extensive use of it beginning in the early 1900s and European steam railways at the same time to some extent.
First installation I know of in the West was in the Moffat Tunnel, 112lb in 1938.
KCSfan wrote:OK here's the next question. Welded rail was first used in the US by a number of streetcar lines. Credit for the introduction of welded rail on US steam railroads is shared by two roads. What were the two railroads and the year that they first installed sections of welded rail?Mark
RWM,
I got all of the roads that you listed except for the following. The ones that I prefaced with an asterisk (*) are railroads that I have long ago forgotten if in fact I ever even knew of them. I grew up about 5 miles from Chicago Heights and often saw the CHTT so I have no excuse for overlooking that road. I seem to recall that the CHTT was a subsidiary of the C&EI like the B&OCTRR was a subsidiary of the B&O but IIRC both operated at least semi autonomously.
*Chicago & Calumet River Railroad Co.*Chicago & Illinois Western Railroad Chicago Heights Terminal Transfer Railroad Co.*Chicago Produce Terminal Co.*Chicago River & Indiana Railroad Co.*Chicago Short Line Railway Co. Chicago Union Station Co.
KCSfan wrote: Railway Man wrote: Are you just counting Class Is, Mark? Because I count 27 railroads whose names just begin with "Chicago" in 1948, not counting the ones that have Chicago as 2nd, 3rd, or 4th word in their name. RWM Nope, I was counting ALL the roads that I knew of off the top of my head that had Chicago as a part of their names. I was not considering those that might have existed as corporate entities but were leased and operated by another road. My list consisted of the following:CNS&M, CNW, CStPM&P, CGW, CA&E, C&A, CRI&P, C&EI, C&WI, CI&L, NYC&StL, CSS&SB, CCC&StL (though as part of the NYC it didn't fit my criteria), BRC, CWP&S, B&OCTRR, CStPM&O, and C&IM.I said "at least 18" and may well have overlooked some. Let me know if there are others which fit my criteria as railroads that operated under their own name that should be included.Mark
Railway Man wrote: Are you just counting Class Is, Mark? Because I count 27 railroads whose names just begin with "Chicago" in 1948, not counting the ones that have Chicago as 2nd, 3rd, or 4th word in their name. RWM
Are you just counting Class Is, Mark? Because I count 27 railroads whose names just begin with "Chicago" in 1948, not counting the ones that have Chicago as 2nd, 3rd, or 4th word in their name.
Nope, I was counting ALL the roads that I knew of off the top of my head that had Chicago as a part of their names. I was not considering those that might have existed as corporate entities but were leased and operated by another road. My list consisted of the following:
CNS&M, CNW, CStPM&P, CGW, CA&E, C&A, CRI&P, C&EI, C&WI, CI&L, NYC&StL, CSS&SB, CCC&StL (though as part of the NYC it didn't fit my criteria), BRC, CWP&S, B&OCTRR, CStPM&O, and C&IM.
I said "at least 18" and may well have overlooked some. Let me know if there are others which fit my criteria as railroads that operated under their own name that should be included.
Chicago & Alton ceased to exist in 1931 (the Alton Railroad, its successor, ceased to exist in 1947). CCC&StL as you pointed out was leased to NYC and thus was a non-operating railroad.
I looked up the list of steam railways in 1948 and have a few more for your list. Definitions at least limit the argument, so using the ICC definition, an operating railway is one whose officers direct the actual transportation services and whose books contain operating as well as financial accounts. A lessor company maintains a separate legal existence but it is non-operating and its properties are operated by the lessees. For example, in 1948, the Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicago Railway Co. is a lessor and operated no trains and provided no transportation services; these were provided by its lessee, the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. There’s also subsidiary railway companies such as the B&OCT and Chicago, Rock Island & Gulf, whose accounts are folded into the parent road’s accounts.
In 1948, these were the operating steam railway companies with Chicago in their name. Not all of them had their name painted on a tender but they all sent someone a bill for transportation services.
Switching & Terminal Companies
Belt Railway Company of Chicago
Chicago & Calumet River Railroad Co.
Chicago & Illinois Western Railroad
Chicago & Western Indiana Railroad Co.
Chicago Heights Terminal Transfer Railroad Co.
Chicago Produce Terminal Co.
Chicago River & Indiana Railroad Co.
Chicago Short Line Railway Co.
Chicago Union Station Co.
Chicago, West Pullman & Southern Railroad Co.
Class III and Class II – none
Class I Railways:
Chicago & Eastern Illinois Railroad Co.
Chicago & Illinois Midland Railway Co.
Chicago & North Western Railway Co.
Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad Co.
Chicago Great Western Railway Co.
Chicago, Indianapolis & Louisville Railway Co. (Monon)
Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul & Pacific Railroad Co.
Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific Railroad Co.
Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis & Omaha Railway Co. (Omaha Road)
New York, Chicago & St. Louis Railroad Co. (Nickel Plate)
Couple of comments on the non-native "Chicago" railroads (and boy, do I feel dumb about not getting those!):
PFW&C and PCC&StL (the "Fort Wayne" and the "Panhandle", respectively) bacically were the two lines that came into Chicago from the east. So, when they were around as separate entities, they served Chicago.
As for the CA&S, I always think of 1946, rightly or wrongly, as the end of service on that line--definitely pre-1948. Also, its northern terminus (on its own tracks) was LaCrosse, Indiana, which is pretty close to, if not within, the 100-mile radius prescribed.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
nanaimo73 wrote:Well done Matt. You got it before Murph showed up.
nordique72 wrote: Thanks Dale, that was a good quiz question to ask. So I guess now it's my turn- keeping with the CStPM&O theme here- The CSTPM&O predecessor line the West Wisconsin railway was originally built from Hudson on the St. Croix River to a "friendly" railroad connection in the east- what was the name of the friendly railroad and what was the location that the two railroads connected?
Thanks Dale, that was a good quiz question to ask. So I guess now it's my turn- keeping with the CStPM&O theme here-
The CSTPM&O predecessor line the West Wisconsin railway was originally built from Hudson on the St. Croix River to a "friendly" railroad connection in the east- what was the name of the friendly railroad and what was the location that the two railroads connected?
Was it Tomah were it connected with the CMStP&P?
KCSfan wrote: Dale nailed this one. the C&IM and the CStPM&O are the answers I was looking for so it's his turn to ask a question. After posting my question I realized there might be a third road, the Chicago Attica & Southern. I don't have the exact date of its abandonment but believe it was in the 1946-7 time frame. Steve, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the PFtW&C and the PCC&StL had become a part of the PRR sometime well before the latter 1940 time period though they may have still existed as corporate entities and only been leased by the PRR. In any event I did not count them since they were operated as a part of the Pennsy and not as individual railroads.Mark
Dale nailed this one. the C&IM and the CStPM&O are the answers I was looking for so it's his turn to ask a question. After posting my question I realized there might be a third road, the Chicago Attica & Southern. I don't have the exact date of its abandonment but believe it was in the 1946-7 time frame.
Steve, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the PFtW&C and the PCC&StL had become a part of the PRR sometime well before the latter 1940 time period though they may have still existed as corporate entities and only been leased by the PRR. In any event I did not count them since they were operated as a part of the Pennsy and not as individual railroads.
Fair enough, I guess.
To the best of my knowledge they were the latter, Still exsisting, but LEASED to the PRR. I don't recall either of them ever fully "mergering" into a larger road. I based my selection of those two on the fact that they themselves did not connect or go within 100 miles of Chicago. I chaulk this one up to a "learning curve", Great fun though...Kudos to the OP'r.
A Midwestern State had its most populated city served by 5 Class 1 railroads, all of which are now Fallen Flags. Of the 5 Fallen Flags, (1)__________ also served California, (2)__________ reached Texas, (3)__________ operated in Mississippi, (4)__________, through its parent, served Wyoming, and (5)__________ was in every State starting with the 3rd vowel
City- Sioux Falls, South Dakota
Railroad 1- Great Northern
Railroad 2- Rock Island
Railroad 3- Illinois Central
Railroad 4- Chicago, Minneapolis, St. Paul & Omaha (to Wyoming via CNW)
Railroad 5- Milwaukee Road
Thanks Mark,
This question relates to 40 years ago, 1968.
A Midwestern State had its most populated city served by 5 Class 1 railroads, all of which are now Fallen Flags. Of the 5 Fallen Flags, (1)__________ also served California, (2)__________ reached Texas, (3)__________ operated in Mississippi, (4)__________, through its parent, served Wyoming, and (5)__________ was in every State starting with the 3rd vowel.
KCSfan wrote: NSlover92 wrote:Jeff Its, your turn to ask a question. MikeMike, rather than let this thread die since Jeff hasn't posted a question, I'll throw one out.60 years ago there were at least 18 railroads with Chicago as part of their name. All but two of them ran into or within the city. Name the two which didn't come to within 100 miles of Chicago.Mark
NSlover92 wrote:Jeff Its, your turn to ask a question. Mike
Mike, rather than let this thread die since Jeff hasn't posted a question, I'll throw one out.
60 years ago there were at least 18 railroads with Chicago as part of their name. All but two of them ran into or within the city. Name the two which didn't come to within 100 miles of Chicago.
Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne and Chicago Rail Road
Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago and St. Louis Railroad
Good question, Mark.
Without looking anything up, I'd guess the Omaha Road (CSPM&O) still existed on paper in 1948. I'm going to have to sleep on the other.
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