Seatrain was formed in 1929 to carry entire rail cars on specially designed vessels between the ports of New Orleans and West Palm Beach, and Havana, Cuba. The Cuban Revolution in 1960 and subsequent trade embargoes killed that profitable service, and it switched to offering coastwise service between New York and Texas City, and ports inbetween. Rate cuts by railroads drove it from this trade and it changed to U.S.-Puerto Rico service, which was a market 1/10 that of U.S.-Cuba. An offer to purchase was made in 1963 by U.S. Freight Forwarders but the ICC dithered and in May 1965 it was purchased by Transeastern Associates, a creation of a couple of former furriers that started running Liberty ships in tramp service in 1950 and soon branched into tankers, later building the Manhattan of Northwest Passage-Prudhoe Bay crude oil fame (the costs of which almost ruined the company). Seatrain had the name and the organization so it became the surviving entity. An innovator, Seatrain was an early proponent of containerization and built a new business serving the U.S. Government in Vietnam with tankers and containerized freight, then pioneered the first landbridge service from the Orient to the U.S. west coast by ocean, and coast to coast by rail, in 1971, reducing by 10 days the 30 day all-water journey via the Panama Canal. Cutthroat competition from foreign shipping lines, U.S. government policy that ensured it could not compete on even terms, and some bad decisions made in desperation, forced it into selling its assets one by one to foreign shipping lines or other U.S. lines that were barely hanging on, until it declared bankruptcy on the shell in 1981. It was never owned by a railroad that I know of.
Look to the other half of Murphy's guess. Actually there were two different steamship lines involved there with railroad ownership.
RWM
I've always heard the West India Fruit and Steamship Company mentioned in connection with railroads. That would possibly tie in with Cuba.
As for Seatrain Lines, I'm curious. I once saw an RBNX reefer fully painted gray, with a "Seatrain" logo. After that, I heard practically nothing about them.
I'd bet that the Cuban "crisis" had a bit to do with the demise of both. Or was Seatrain a new name for WIF?
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Railway Man wrote:Chris: This ain't Queen's Rules history quiz. Like one of my bosses used to say, "Cheat 'till you get caught, then lie." RWM
That's great. I'll have to use that in the future.
I think I'll still sit back and let Murph or someone else run with it for awhile. If we don't get it in a day or so, I'll post my cheated researched answer again.
-ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Murphy Siding wrote: Railway Man wrote: But can no one name the most important railroad-owned steamship line of all? The one that owned its ocean basin for decades, enriching the U.S. and creating trade dominance, until essentially put out of business by Congress for inexplicable reasons other than misbegotten infatuation with ideology?RWMAn *out there* wild guess- Something to do with FEC and trade to Cuba? I seem to think maybe SP was involved in steamship lines as well?
Railway Man wrote: But can no one name the most important railroad-owned steamship line of all? The one that owned its ocean basin for decades, enriching the U.S. and creating trade dominance, until essentially put out of business by Congress for inexplicable reasons other than misbegotten infatuation with ideology?RWM
But can no one name the most important railroad-owned steamship line of all? The one that owned its ocean basin for decades, enriching the U.S. and creating trade dominance, until essentially put out of business by Congress for inexplicable reasons other than misbegotten infatuation with ideology?
Murph: Guessing is good. You're halfway there ...
Chris: This ain't Queen's Rules history quiz. Like one of my bosses used to say, "Cheat 'till you get caught, then lie."
Railway Man wrote: I wouldn't worry about it, us traditionalists are always beet red about something or another.But can no one name the most important railroad-owned steamship line of all? The one that owned its ocean basin for decades, enriching the U.S. and creating trade dominance, until essentially put out of business by Congress for inexplicable reasons other than misbegotten infatuation with ideology?RWM
I wouldn't worry about it, us traditionalists are always beet red about something or another.
Ooops...just read the rules and found out internet usage is cheating, so I deleted my last answer. My apologies...
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Railway Man wrote: That's the two EASY ones. Of course traditionalists are turning beet red that you referred to The Canadian Pacific Steamships Ltd. by that ghastly name "CP Ships". RWM
That's the two EASY ones. Of course traditionalists are turning beet red that you referred to The Canadian Pacific Steamships Ltd. by that ghastly name "CP Ships".
Ooops...my apologies to the traditionalists. How about a totally random guess, then. Did the Pennsy every own any steamship lines? For some reason, I could see the Pennsy owning a shipping line.
Chris:
Norris:
That's three of four. Great Northern Steamship Company had seven ships in service by 1906, including the two largest on the Pacific Ocean, the Minnesota and the Dakota, each 22,500 DWT and hopelessly uneconomic by virtue of their size and slowness, one of Hill's few big blunders. The Dakota was lost on a clear, calm day in 1907 when only two years old, due to gross negligence on the part of the captain, who spent the rest of his career as a night watchman. The Minnesota lumbered back and forth to the Orient four times a year, sitting in ports for weeks while sufficient cargo was rounded up to fill its cavernous holds, until 1917 when sold to J.P. Morgan's International Mercantile Marine for Atlantic service, ending the GN Steamship Company.
Railway Man wrote: Here's my question: At least four major ocean-going steamship lines have been owned by Class I railroads. Name any two of them plus the railroad that owned it and approximate time frame. Extra credit to anyone who names a fifth one I don't know about!RWM
At least four major ocean-going steamship lines have been owned by Class I railroads. Name any two of them plus the railroad that owned it and approximate time frame. Extra credit to anyone who names a fifth one I don't know about!
Quick guess:
1) CSX with Sea-land
2) CP Rail with CP shipping?
CP was merged into SP well before 1955 but it DID reach the Pacific Ocean, just not at first. But credit to Wyoming for knowing that the CP started at Sacramento and not San Francisco as often assumed.
Here's my question:
Railway Man wrote: Chicago, Rock Island & PacificMissouri PacificTexas & PacificCincinnati, New Orleans & Texas PacificDuluth, Winnepeg & PacificAnd honorary mention, St. Louis-San Francisco
And honorary mention, St. Louis-San Francisco
Very good RWM you are the winner and it's your turn to ask the next question. Being leased by, and operated as part of,the Southern Railway System I thought the CNO&TP might stump a few people.
Wyoming, I don't think the AP was ever a Class I and the Central Pacific (unless I am terribly mistaken) no longer existed as an entity in the 1950's which was the time period I referenced in my question.
Mark
even though it was chartered and never built(and it's my model railroad's name)
Arkansas Pacific
Don't forget Central Pacific, which only went to Sacramento
I don't have time right now to research the question I'd like to ask so I'll just throw out a quickie that should be easy to answer.
Flash back to say 1955. What were the Class I roads that had the word Pacific in their names that did not come within hundreds of miles of the Pacific shores?
nordique72 wrote: KCSfan,You're up! It indeed was the Chicago New York Electric Air Line- proposed between those two cities but only completed in a short section between LaPorte and Gary, IN- definately one of the more curious ventures ever struck upon in the interurban era-can't imagine what the cost would have become once they reached the mountains!
KCSfan,
You're up! It indeed was the Chicago New York Electric Air Line- proposed between those two cities but only completed in a short section between LaPorte and Gary, IN- definately one of the more curious ventures ever struck upon in the interurban era-can't imagine what the cost would have become once they reached the mountains!
Oh, , and I was gonna list either the no. 100 or the no. 102 SEPTA lines between 69th St. terminal and Norristown or Media. I now realize either choice doesn't answer the city of origin/city of destination nearly so well as the winner. - a. s.
nordique72 wrote: No problem Carl- hope the vacation went well in Michigan. May question is as follows- In the early 1900s there was a group of people who got together and decided to build an "air line" between two major metropolitan cities- the idea was met with great interest and investment, but a financial depression doomed the route and it was eventually reorganized into a successful interurban network, all the while never reaching either of the cities in it's namesake. What was the railroad, what cities was it proposed to run between, and name the city and state where the remaining trackage was reorganized into interurban service. (This one shouldn't be too hard for the interurban buffs out there!)
No problem Carl- hope the vacation went well in Michigan.
May question is as follows- In the early 1900s there was a group of people who got together and decided to build an "air line" between two major metropolitan cities- the idea was met with great interest and investment, but a financial depression doomed the route and it was eventually reorganized into a successful interurban network, all the while never reaching either of the cities in it's namesake. What was the railroad, what cities was it proposed to run between, and name the city and state where the remaining trackage was reorganized into interurban service. (This one shouldn't be too hard for the interurban buffs out there!)
That would be the proposed line between Chicago and New York. I believe the name was the Chicago and New York Air Line or maybe the Chicago and New York Electric Air Line. The only actual construction was in or near to Gary, Indiana which ultimately became part of the CSS&SB, the South Shore line.
That question intrigued me so I went and looked it up, having no idea what you were referring to.
What a concept! Sounds like something that we'd expect to see proposed in our own forum. I liked this sentence: "There is still some question whether the Air Line was a fraudulent scheme or an honest promotion, but it seems probably that it was a sincere but misguided effort to build the project." Or, "Had actual construction of the Air Line never been undertaken, it would be regarded as simply an extreme example of the lunatic fringe of interurban projects."
Nordique got it. CNW 801 was the railroad's only SW8--I had it for an assignment once. The ex-CGW GP30s were eventually renumbered to CNW 802-809, and the first original CNW GP30 was the 810. Stormy's belt should have shown the 810, since the ex-CGW units all got an unusual paint scheme with the number on the cab and the logo on the short hood, with the horizontal separation of green and yellow including the cab.
Sorry I couldn't get to this sooner--we were in Michigan, and high-speed cable modems don't exist up there (at least not at my in-laws' house!).
nordique72 wrote:The "class unit" of the 800 series GP30s was the 802- a former CGW unit. When the CNW units were originally ordered, they purposely left a space at the beginning of the series for the CGW units to be added into after the impending merger. The CNW's first originally owned GP30 was the 810- and why do you ask was the "class unit" of the GP30s 802? Well that's because 801 was already assigned to an SW switcher in CNW's fleet.
In less than five minutes it will be nine hours since the last post.
CShaveRR: If King Conrail is closest to correct, would you consider giving him (and the rest of the players) a hint?
OR, do nordique72's and KingCoal's latest postings combine in such a way as to answer the question?
I admit to a little hypocrisy and self interest. I have a Penn Central question up my sleeve which may not be as difficult as the foregoing, but is kind of finicky. I get the most from this thread when it is zipping along with close-to-chat speed postings, because there is more to learn.
Although my question concerns Penn Central, it has nothing to do with rolling stock, motive power, or enumeration of same.
BTW where IS everybody? It's Saturday night, and some of the Board members may be out on dates, others out with friends or spouses, or taking care of errands, especially if they live in the Great Lakes/Upper Midwest regions and have a brief respite in between the snow and ice storms for shopping, etc. -- but I usually glom a much more "attended" feeling on Saturdays in between mid-evening and middle-of-the-night. -- a. s.
CShaveRR wrote: Ho-kay!Chicago & North Western, until the early 1970s, numbered all of its road engines (GP30s, GP35s, SD40s) in the 800 series. They preferred to begin their numberings with a "_1" instead of a "_0". So an engineer I knew, who was also into leatherwork, made a belt with a train running its length, led by CNW GP30 801, which he said was the "first of the 800s".What was wrong with his picture?
Ho-kay!
Chicago & North Western, until the early 1970s, numbered all of its road engines (GP30s, GP35s, SD40s) in the 800 series. They preferred to begin their numberings with a "_1" instead of a "_0". So an engineer I knew, who was also into leatherwork, made a belt with a train running its length, led by CNW GP30 801, which he said was the "first of the 800s".
What was wrong with his picture?
I don't know if this is how they DID do it, but the first of the 800 series would be 810. 811 should be the second in the series.
Just a wild guess. Was the correct "road code" to be painted on motive power, rolling stock, cabooses, etc., something other than "CNW"? That's how we refer to it, but sometimes there are differences . .
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.