This thread brings back memories..
I'm not talking about kangaroo courts. I am speaking of people out here working that are a danger to all others around them. I have no real issue witht he unions protecting people... but when you get to a type of person that is in the wrong profession - that is where we will split paths. Same with any other job. Our education system would be much better if we could get rid of teachers that have no intention of teaching. But once they get tenure, lotsa luck. Same here. I'm sorry, but I value my life too much to want some dangerous guy out here.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann wrote: I'm also against how unions (any of them) blindly protect the incompetent. There are some people that should not be allowed near a RR, period. Jsut like there are people that shouldn't be teachers, shouldn't be cops, etc... yet the union has to, by its nature, stand up for these people. How allowing an unsafe person to continue to operate helps my safety is beyond me... Now I'm getting off topic. Have a nice day.
I'm also against how unions (any of them) blindly protect the incompetent. There are some people that should not be allowed near a RR, period. Jsut like there are people that shouldn't be teachers, shouldn't be cops, etc... yet the union has to, by its nature, stand up for these people. How allowing an unsafe person to continue to operate helps my safety is beyond me...
Now I'm getting off topic. Have a nice day.
Unions do not 'blindly protect the incompetent', however they do their best to insure that the Carriers follow the contract rules concerning discipline when actions of an incompetent are brought to a disciplinary investigation. The Carriers agreed to certain rules and procedures when they signed the contracts with the Union. It is the Union's responsibility to see and insure that those rules and procedures are complied with. The Carriers, if they could get away with it would be the Kangaroo Court and Hanging Judge all rolled into one. Guilty because of the way you blink your eyes....NEXT!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Something I recently learned is that the first contract taxi service to begin on the former SF was @ Belen, NM in 1981. Could this have been the first of any rr? Interesting thought.
Unfortunately you speak as if everything is set in stone. It is not. There will be one-man crews. After how many remote crashes - I see no proposals of shelving the technology.
Te carriers will have it their way. If you think I'm going to add extra stress to my life trying to change the inevitable, you are mistaken. (life just ain't worth the ulcer) And this country isn't exactly faring on the side of labor either. I wish it wasn't that way... but you can only fight the current so long.
zugmann wrote: I guess I just have a different vision of what is happening in our future. I see the RRs becoming non-union. The intermodal yards already are. We have conductors running switchers. The lines are already blurred. I even hear talk about "utility engineers". It just isn't worth the hassle. If I don't leave it at the yard office... I turn into another person, as RRKen can attest. I can't imagine dealing with union business in my off-time... I need zugmann time.They say the average person changes career 7 times or more in their lifetimes... that means I still have at least 6 to go.
I guess I just have a different vision of what is happening in our future. I see the RRs becoming non-union. The intermodal yards already are. We have conductors running switchers. The lines are already blurred. I even hear talk about "utility engineers". It just isn't worth the hassle. If I don't leave it at the yard office... I turn into another person, as RRKen can attest. I can't imagine dealing with union business in my off-time... I need zugmann time.
They say the average person changes career 7 times or more in their lifetimes... that means I still have at least 6 to go.
It is guys like us old timers that give you the bennifits yo are about to see comming down the pike. In other words if you think you can start at the top after someone who has been out here for 25years for get it. These men put in time in worse conditions than you will ever dream of. whine as you may it wont change, but to save you we in the blet are taking advantage and making sure there is a job for you, always a engineer on thru frieght any job that is not remote controll now will have a engineer on it and those men are protected and those jobs will be protected. ( engineer utility) But if you quit being selfish and go to meetings you find these things out, instead of hearing it thru the rumor mills, ( just like finding out what sex is as a teen) there is guys that wont give up 1 hrs of the life they have at home to make years of improvements of the life they could have. If you dont go to the meetings and get involved you do not have any rights to complain. Its like voting in the elections those that dont vote have no right to complain about the out comes.
MP173 wrote:As a nonrailroader, let me ask you this: What one thing would you change about you job, if you could?ed
As a nonrailroader, let me ask you this:
What one thing would you change about you job, if you could?
ed
csx engineer
Having more time off when you know you will be off. Sure we can go 20 hours between calls - but if you're 2nd out, you can't really do anything in those hours. As it stands now, we have to have 7 consecutive starts in 7 conecutive days to get 24 hours undisturbed rest.
For example: Go to work 11pm monday for a quick short turn (take a train somewehre and get driven home). You get home at 9am Tuesday. But you don't get called again until 1am Wednesday. Unfortunately you didn't get a start on Tuesday - so you have to start the 7 starts in 7 days cycle OVER to get another shot at a rest day!
I took a job with regular rest days this week - but got bumped after one trip. That is why I actually had some time this week to play with this forum.
They have Rule G, but being tired is jsut as bad as bing drunk. Yet they seem to want us to be tired. It will take something big to change it - I just hope it doesn't happen near me!
zugmann wrote: Us young guys? Simple. We are working the extra board or pool jobs. We have no clue when we will have time off. And at the rate we have been working - we sure as heck ain't giving up the rare evening off to go to a union meeting. We either want to sleep or spend time with our families. I went through my calendar the other week... there was only one day where I could have went to a union meeting. But I just got back from a really long day and wanted to go home, get something to eat and go to bed. Selfish? You bet. Of course I don't leave close to work or the union meetings - I am about an hour away. Most of the people that hire out near me just try to stay invisible. WE had a younger conductor who was the trainman's representative for the BLET. Really nice guy, worked for us - too bad he ran off to go join the dark side. So it is not going to end anytime soon. The old guys with the best jobs and those in the yard will continue to rule. The rest of us have just accepted it. We'll take the engine with torn seats... sure beats having to answer for a whole bunch of crap and gets us out of the yard faster. I'm sure it would be different if we had dedicated people like RRken or Zapp as our union reps... but here, forget it. We just gave up. There's only so much you can care about. PS>> I also think there is a generational shift in how we see ourselves. I don't see myself as a railroader. I just work for a railroad. I do not see a train from my employer as "my" or "our" train. I just see it as a train from my employer. I just want to do my work, go home and get my paystub. Forget the pride - I feel NONE.zug. zapp wrote:I couldn't agree more!!!I too, am a post '85er, and a union officer. I can't discribe how fustraiting it is to see 20-40% voting results. Alot of railroads won't get off their butts to save their butts! You can make things change, it's just not easy, nor is it going to happen overnight. It's alot of dedication, time and most of tenacity!Do not let the minority rule the majority, get involved! Don't you young guy's sit around the crew room bitching about nothing changing and not try to change it. I used to hate to sit in a crew room and listen to that crap, because when the time came to actually do something, or I needed something, everybody was way to busy.Do you know all of the agreements yuo work under, has your representative given you copies of the agreement books. You would be surprised, and so would these new managers, as to what these books hold. Example, Our books had an agreements specifying the what the seats had to look like on the lead unit, so when UP told us we had to take a train with some piece of crap Mexican unit with tore up seats on the lead we pulled out the agreement books and they let us switch it out. Management and most of the guy's around here didn't know that, they didn't read the agreements!I should add, don't abuse it either. It goes both ways!
Us young guys? Simple. We are working the extra board or pool jobs. We have no clue when we will have time off. And at the rate we have been working - we sure as heck ain't giving up the rare evening off to go to a union meeting. We either want to sleep or spend time with our families. I went through my calendar the other week... there was only one day where I could have went to a union meeting. But I just got back from a really long day and wanted to go home, get something to eat and go to bed. Selfish? You bet. Of course I don't leave close to work or the union meetings - I am about an hour away.
Most of the people that hire out near me just try to stay invisible. WE had a younger conductor who was the trainman's representative for the BLET. Really nice guy, worked for us - too bad he ran off to go join the dark side.
So it is not going to end anytime soon. The old guys with the best jobs and those in the yard will continue to rule. The rest of us have just accepted it. We'll take the engine with torn seats... sure beats having to answer for a whole bunch of crap and gets us out of the yard faster.
I'm sure it would be different if we had dedicated people like RRken or Zapp as our union reps... but here, forget it. We just gave up. There's only so much you can care about.
PS>> I also think there is a generational shift in how we see ourselves. I don't see myself as a railroader. I just work for a railroad. I do not see a train from my employer as "my" or "our" train. I just see it as a train from my employer. I just want to do my work, go home and get my paystub. Forget the pride - I feel NONE.
zug.
zapp wrote:I couldn't agree more!!!I too, am a post '85er, and a union officer. I can't discribe how fustraiting it is to see 20-40% voting results. Alot of railroads won't get off their butts to save their butts! You can make things change, it's just not easy, nor is it going to happen overnight. It's alot of dedication, time and most of tenacity!Do not let the minority rule the majority, get involved! Don't you young guy's sit around the crew room bitching about nothing changing and not try to change it. I used to hate to sit in a crew room and listen to that crap, because when the time came to actually do something, or I needed something, everybody was way to busy.Do you know all of the agreements yuo work under, has your representative given you copies of the agreement books. You would be surprised, and so would these new managers, as to what these books hold. Example, Our books had an agreements specifying the what the seats had to look like on the lead unit, so when UP told us we had to take a train with some piece of crap Mexican unit with tore up seats on the lead we pulled out the agreement books and they let us switch it out. Management and most of the guy's around here didn't know that, they didn't read the agreements!I should add, don't abuse it either. It goes both ways!
I couldn't agree more!!!
I too, am a post '85er, and a union officer. I can't discribe how fustraiting it is to see 20-40% voting results. Alot of railroads won't get off their butts to save their butts! You can make things change, it's just not easy, nor is it going to happen overnight. It's alot of dedication, time and most of tenacity!
Do not let the minority rule the majority, get involved! Don't you young guy's sit around the crew room bitching about nothing changing and not try to change it. I used to hate to sit in a crew room and listen to that crap, because when the time came to actually do something, or I needed something, everybody was way to busy.
Do you know all of the agreements yuo work under, has your representative given you copies of the agreement books. You would be surprised, and so would these new managers, as to what these books hold. Example, Our books had an agreements specifying the what the seats had to look like on the lead unit, so when UP told us we had to take a train with some piece of crap Mexican unit with tore up seats on the lead we pulled out the agreement books and they let us switch it out. Management and most of the guy's around here didn't know that, they didn't read the agreements!
I should add, don't abuse it either. It goes both ways!
Uh...WOW...
I guess we are just two totally differnet personalities.
If the carrier tries to walk all over me or one of my brothers, I DO take it personally and I'll fight it. I won't be "invisible" and neither should you! You have to know when to pick your fights, who your opponent is, and what he's bringing to the table. There are times a simple phone call can clear this up, other times we'll take it to an investigation.
I can't describe the feeling when you win an investigation for one of your brothers, maybe extremely fulfilling.
I too, worked the extra board most of the time. We were making between 3500-4300 a half so we didn't have alot of time screwing around either. You get off, drive home, eat a bowl of cereal (doesn't matter what itme of day it was) go to bed and get woken by a phone call to come back. So we suggested having a website that the local set up posting the latest news that effected our region. It really helped. Evenb though you don't have alot of time at home, the carrier has no problem leaving you at your AFHT for ever. So we would go online there and catch up, while we waited for the call to come home.
RRKen wrote: Rail-Roadwarrior wrote: As I sat in at those meetings I thought to myself this is all a waste of time. None of this will matter tommorrow and nothing will change. It's hard to keep the faith when the carrier screws you over time after time and nothing ever gets done about it. As the Zuggman will attest, I get frustrated at this kind of talk. As a union officer, I aim to serve as best I can. I spend hours of my own time making sure that issues are addressed, the checks are in the mail, and information the members want is provided. I really do not like confrontation, it serves no purpose other than to alienate others. I spend a lot of time teaching younger men about the CNW schedule, and that we cannot afford to let the carrier erode it any further than it already has. The tide is turning in some locations today. No more can the politics of seniority dictate who can govern, and who cannot. One very large district has already seen the younger members out-number them, forcing the focus to change. No longer can the agreements we have seen since the merger be passed that will further gut the pay of new hires or worse. This is the exception, not the rule yet. (National elimination of the two tiered new hire rates has to be the biggest insult, and to be honest, needs to be the first to go away. And I would not be surprised if it was traded for some pre-85 items since pre-85 is becoming the minority.)
Rail-Roadwarrior wrote: As I sat in at those meetings I thought to myself this is all a waste of time. None of this will matter tommorrow and nothing will change. It's hard to keep the faith when the carrier screws you over time after time and nothing ever gets done about it.
As I sat in at those meetings I thought to myself this is all a waste of time. None of this will matter tommorrow and nothing will change. It's hard to keep the faith when the carrier screws you over time after time and nothing ever gets done about it.
As the Zuggman will attest, I get frustrated at this kind of talk. As a union officer, I aim to serve as best I can. I spend hours of my own time making sure that issues are addressed, the checks are in the mail, and information the members want is provided. I really do not like confrontation, it serves no purpose other than to alienate others. I spend a lot of time teaching younger men about the CNW schedule, and that we cannot afford to let the carrier erode it any further than it already has.
The tide is turning in some locations today. No more can the politics of seniority dictate who can govern, and who cannot. One very large district has already seen the younger members out-number them, forcing the focus to change. No longer can the agreements we have seen since the merger be passed that will further gut the pay of new hires or worse. This is the exception, not the rule yet. (National elimination of the two tiered new hire rates has to be the biggest insult, and to be honest, needs to be the first to go away. And I would not be surprised if it was traded for some pre-85 items since pre-85 is becoming the minority.)
Ken, if we had more guys like you things would be different. We had officers who just never showed a whole lot of interest. They were always marked off on union business but never seemed to get any claims paid or any other issues taken care of. And getting a phone call returned could take a while. I understand that being a local chairman or an officer can be stressfull with the constant phone calls and complaints on top of working your job, I never wanted any part of it. Some are better suited than others, more power to you for being able to hack it.
CShaveRR wrote: We do have a rule that prohibits employees from being in one of the transport vehicles when a backup move is being made. This is probably one of those rules that was written in blood.
We do have a rule that prohibits employees from being in one of the transport vehicles when a backup move is being made. This is probably one of those rules that was written in blood.
I heard a van backed into a pole rather forcefully, at least enough that an occupant claimed an injury. Having people in the van other than the driver was supposedly a contributing cause.
With some of our drivers when you get out you want to give them plenty of space. With one I would get behind some sturdy immovable object whenever possible. I don't know what will happen when one backs over a passenger.
Our drivers before backing up are supposed to get out and walk around the van to make sure the area behind the van is clear. That's because a van backed into a railroader.
Jeff
Well, safety is nice... but bottom line this is a job and we do want paid. It is hard to feed the family on safety measures. In my area, we have a lot of pre-85 UTU guys. These guys have attachments, slush funds, the works. So we, the 80%ers, with none of that get tired of listening to these old guys debate which contractor they should hire for their million dollar homes, or how they should really sell off that Infiniti as they barely drive it. All the while we look at our checks and go, WTF??? The days of the $100,000 dollar RRer are over.
But the newest guys have basically given up on the unions. It is sad... and as a pro-labor guy it pains me. Sure someone will ask - "did you go to the union meeting?" I can answer - nope. I was either working or on rest. And if you think I am going to give up my few hours of rest to drive an hour to a union meeting - you're nuts.
PS>> I'm also proud to be from the state that mandated toilets in road engines! (PA)
Rail-Roadwarrior wrote:This is true. When I finally did make it to a meeting, the only other young guys in attendance were furloughed. Seemed like no one wanted to talk about anything but their penalty claims and doing things they were told to do that they thought were not in the contract. 30 ticked off people trying to talk over each other at once. Everyone there talked about how the local chairman sucked and should be replaced. Seems like the youger ones at the meeting cared nothing about wanting to improve anything but their pay check. Anything within reason can be fixed, but like anything else it takes time and unions don't perform miracles.
This is true. When I finally did make it to a meeting, the only other young guys in attendance were furloughed. Seemed like no one wanted to talk about anything but their penalty claims and doing things they were told to do that they thought were not in the contract. 30 ticked off people trying to talk over each other at once. Everyone there talked about how the local chairman sucked and should be replaced. Seems like the youger ones at the meeting cared nothing about wanting to improve anything but their pay check. Anything within reason can be fixed, but like anything else it takes time and unions don't perform miracles.
zugmann wrote: Its this new brand of managers that only can look at the bottom line. And the railroads are hiring managers that never threw a swtich and never had to ride a van in their lives. And there may be only 3 RRers on here - but every single trip I take with dozens upon dozens of RRers is not complete until you get a deadheading horror story.
Its this new brand of managers that only can look at the bottom line. And the railroads are hiring managers that never threw a swtich and never had to ride a van in their lives.
And there may be only 3 RRers on here - but every single trip I take with dozens upon dozens of RRers is not complete until you get a deadheading horror story.
In general you may well be right about the Yuppie generation of "hands-off" managers, but an isolated management not knowing (or not caring) about small, cheap amenities to improve comfort and safety is not brand new.
Both THE MEN WHO LOVED TRAINS and MAIN LINES talk about such issues that go way back, sometimes before the implementation of diesel motive power. N&W for generations refused to put a potty in the head end of the loco. Apparently if a strong need for "number two" arose, the engineer or fireman was expected to do his business in a bag, like a poodle.
And a small but still significant part of the "wreck of the Penn Central" lay in the fact that ex-Pennsy's loco's did not have armrests, but the ex-NYCentral's did. It provoked great labor unrest when the motive power started getting mixed after the merger and the ex-Central's employees felt the loss of a valuable comfort item.
We're not talking wall-to-wall carpet and video games, but sanitation and uniform, and as-comfortable-as-possible working quarters, are everyone's right. N&W and later NS have generated Dollars of bad will and reputational damage by saving comparative dimes on equipping the cab. And a comfortable worker is a safer worker.
Any of the execs who had to go without an armchair in THEIR offices would be hollering bloody murder!
sanvtoman wrote: Anyway on this topic of underqualified drivers next time you see a van from an old folks home take a look at who is driving. I wouldnt let the family dog go with these people more less a loved one.
zugmann wrote: Sorry, I got bumped off a job... so I'm a little testy today. I really shouldn't post when I get mad. Heck I still consider myself a railfan. I craned my head when we passed some restored Eunits the othr day... As faar as safety... Can we fix it? I don't think so in the near future. Around here, the unions are pretty much run by old-timers taht can hold daylight yard jobs. Us younger pups are stuck working extra or on unassigned pools, and can't get to union meetings to set the agendas. So in return we become bitter at our own unions (which we are) and will not take part in them. I wouldn't be surprised if the railroads become non-union in the next 10-20 years. Of course, we'll have 1-man crews with roving utilities. It's going to happen.... just a question of when the locomotives are set up for it.
Sorry, I got bumped off a job... so I'm a little testy today. I really shouldn't post when I get mad. Heck I still consider myself a railfan. I craned my head when we passed some restored Eunits the othr day...
As faar as safety...
I wouldn't be surprised if the railroads become non-union in the next 10-20 years. Of course, we'll have 1-man crews with roving utilities. It's going to happen.... just a question of when the locomotives are set up for it.
zugmann wrote:And no, the us vs. them is because of railfans that have ZERO experience in the industry thinking they know more than we do. Sorry, I don't think it works that way. I'm sure as heck not going to know more about trucking than Ulrich... so is it fair to assume I may know a little more about the physical rail ops (maybe not the financial means) than he does?
And no, the us vs. them is because of railfans that have ZERO experience in the industry thinking they know more than we do. Sorry, I don't think it works that way. I'm sure as heck not going to know more about trucking than Ulrich... so is it fair to assume I may know a little more about the physical rail ops (maybe not the financial means) than he does?
So one guy who suddenly surfaced here after four years of membership pulled your chain. No need to call out the militia. And no need to indict all railfans, either.
I've been in some pretty heated discussions here. I've found that some people don't want to hear logic. Some want to make up facts to support their opinion. Others feed off blind support from their clique. And when someone finally calls them on their "game", they retreat -- resorting to calling you a troll and worse.
I hear ya on your concerns for the future. I remember hearing stories about the battle (my grandpa was a retired Cicero policeman who worked for the IC -- a "railroad bull") when they started bring in diesel locomotives. Two man-crews with MU locos were replacing steam crews on double- and triple-headers. That almost caused riots in the yard.
zugmann wrote: You think us ballast pounders have access to this data? We have experiences. I don't need facts and statistics. That is the difference between us and them I guess. As csxengineer said, it is different from outside the fence.
You think us ballast pounders have access to this data? We have experiences. I don't need facts and statistics. That is the difference between us and them I guess. As csxengineer said, it is different from outside the fence.
Thanks for removing the smarmy line you had originally in this post. I think none of us wants to start a war over this.
As someone from "outside the fence" I guess it amazes me that management is deaf to these safety complaints and that the union is totally impotent in forcing any changes, that's all.
You think us ballast pounders have access to this data? We have experiences. I don't need facts and statistics.
zugmann wrote: You don't want to believe us? that's fine - we'll just return to the normal foamer topics of paint and horns.
You don't want to believe us? that's fine - we'll just return to the normal foamer topics of paint and horns.
and insults, right?
No one said they don't believe you. They simply asked for some data or documentation regarding a claim made here in this discussion. That's a legitimate request. The other guy says he's a union official who's been fighting for change on this for years. He'd likely be the guy who'd have some sort of stats, yes?
If this place turns into an "Us vs. Them" war, it will be because of "foamer" comments like yours.
How'd you like it if someone said "Or we'll just return to the normal topics of railroaders complaining about how tough their jobs are."?
Now I will admit - we do have some really good drivers - the ones that are no way paid enough. They know where they are going (and several ways there), are friendly, and all around good guys.
Unfortunately, not all drivers are like that.
IIRC, it was a private company (and possibly one or more former employees), as opposed to one of the larger crew-transport companies. On my regular job, I'd rarely need to utilize these people. But I've heard tales...
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
CShaveRR wrote:It's a phenomenon of the last twenty years or so, Murph. Before that the railroad's own employees (clerks, messengers, trainmasters, whatever) would handle the ferrying of crews.
Dan
Murphy Siding wrote: Has this always been a problem, or something that has changed over time?
No one has yet been forthcoming with that detail.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Harry_Runyon wrote: Ulrich wrote:That's right AL...you would think that the rails who claim the sky is falling like Chicken Little on this SAFETY issue would at least have the numbers handy to support their onerous (and frankly dubious & overstated) claim. Hopefully when their reps sit down with their counterparts in management they'll have those numbers because without em they look like d*** FOOLS. DOH!!!!! OK now...lets review these numbers again: Big Al and you have how many years combined in railroading?
Ulrich wrote:That's right AL...you would think that the rails who claim the sky is falling like Chicken Little on this SAFETY issue would at least have the numbers handy to support their onerous (and frankly dubious & overstated) claim. Hopefully when their reps sit down with their counterparts in management they'll have those numbers because without em they look like d*** FOOLS. DOH!!!!!
OK now...lets review these numbers again: Big Al and you have how many years combined in railroading?
While I usually agree with you, I don't see how that's relative to the discussion, Harry. The business principles employed in running a railroad are not unique.
The complaints are coming from TWO railroaders here. TWO. And now a third person familiar with shuttles takes issue with their complaints. Uh-huh.
A broad statement was made... and someone requested documentation. To answer with "you cannot understand because you don't work for a railroad" leaves a lot to be desired. Reminds me of the illogical fallacy: "All sick people take pills. Therefore, if they stop taking pills, they won't be sick."
Anyway, the issue here apparently is low pay of the van drivers. It may be a job, but it is not a "career" -- like railroading is a career.
Really, what special skills do van drivers need (beyond a CDL) that makes them invaluable to their employer -- or is it the type of job where you can plug just about anybody in and out as needed? Supply and demand, right? There's nothing special about driving. Millions of Americans do it every day. Like, it's not the kind of job where a guy can get paid $75,000 a year and the employer still makes a tidy profit.
Interesting topic, and obviously very emotional one to the crew members. Best of luck to you in getting it fixed.
I am not a railroader, nor employed in one of the taxi services, so I will keep my limited opinions to myself. However, Ulrich, I think you have some really solid points. I too make my living off of performance and hate it when I am the "low bidder". BTW, do you need any graphics for your trucks? If so, contact me off line, you will get the best quality at a fair price. References obviously included from some of the largest transportation companies in the US.
I had one experience with a crew and taxi. A couple of years ago I had my scanner on and heard the frustration of a crew trying to instruct a taxi where to pick them up. It was a very isolated location (a MOW siding) with no road access. After 10 minutes of listening, my 11 year old son and I went out and got the crew. We told them of overhearing and instructed the crew where to tell the taxi to meet us (local convienence store).
When the crew saw my 11 year old, they went nuts and invited us into the locomotive and gave us (mainly him) the tour, plus a bottle of water, and a couple of railroad things. As we were walking to my Jeep, another car pulled up and the crew told us to be cool...they were certain it was a local railroad manager coming to help. Nope...it was another railfan, that drove over 10 miles to lend a helping hand on a cold winter night.
It was only 1/2 mile to the C store and the van met us there. It was a great night for my son as he not only got a tour of a locomotive but also got to "rescue the Grand Truck".
The next morning I drove to the siding to take a quick picture of the MOW train. The crew recognized me and showed their appreciation by couple of quick blasts on the horn.
Now, looking back and reading this thread...it was a pretty tough situation for the crew and the cab. The crew couldnt give local directions, as they were from Battle Creek, over 100 miles away and the taxi had NO IDEA where this isolated siding was.
In a perfect world, the taxis would have GPS units, great suspension systems, and well paid drivers, plus perhaps a cooler with water or soft drinks. The odds of that occuring? Probably not too good.
Be safe.
while doing a search for another subject ref. Renzenberger i found this thread, its very interesting...i must admit some of the things said bothered me a bit. i am a driver, a damn good one, i have never been to jail, im not on work release, i have never been in a accident with my van or my pov, ever ( knock on wood), im not an idiot, drunk or a drug addict and i could tell you some doozies about some of the railroaders ive picked up but the majority of them are damn good people. they are hard working, easy going, generous, funny people and i cant think of another group of guys i would rather work around. i say generous not because i beg money off the crews but generous in spirit. i could also say those things about most of the drivers i know. there are good and bad employees on every job.
I think most of these complaints should be aimed at the drivers employer and not the drivers.
here are some facts about renzenberger
training consisted of sitting in a room watching some short videos on fouling the track, it was really about cars getting hit by trains not the specifics of driving a pick up van near the tracks or in a yard. also some videos on safe driving, using the msg system,etc total 8hrs
road training consisted of going on the road with another driver and seeing some of the pick up locations, driving the van a little, riding along on some pick ups.total 16hrs
thats it, but not sure what else could be done, maybe a defensive driving course but they are not going to pay for that.
my very first day on the job solo i was in the yard driving the dodgers around,i think every driver should do it, they were great as far as me being new, im sure they see that a lot.
as you know the pay is a joke, while in training its minimum wage, yes, minimum wage.
starting is 0.16 cents a mile and i think 6.25 hr on any wait time and yard shifts
maximum driver pay is 0.18 or 0.19 cents a mile and 7.50 hr wait time.
lead drivers get 250.00 extra dollars a month, thats it. it doesnt come close to compensating them for what they do.
we are 10 hrs drive time/ 15 hrs on duty time a day max, i dont care who you are you cant spend 15 hrs in a van and still stay sharp.
if they send you somewhere you are not familiar with you are on your own to find it, my drivers book consists of some hand drawn maps of some of the pick up points but you need to get close for the maps to even start to help.
the safety bonus program is a joke, i wont even get into that..lol.
i could go on and on, why not get a diff job?, well..i like the job itself, not the pay or the way the company operates.
ill see ya out there
Bishop
Ulrich wrote:I'm not arguing...in fact I'm going to AGREE with you and call it a night. You've convinced me that you guys (unions/carriers/contractors) can't fix this problem. Have a nice evening.
The problem can be fixed, but it won't. You'll just get the same message:
"Well, sure, we'd like to do that, but our profits this year are just not as high as we expected them to be...."
That same excuse, er, statement is used whenever anything safety-related comes up.
sanvtoman wrote: Also on this topic when i worked if a person was furloughed and on the guarentee the carrier would mark you up as a messenger checker. To any current rail workers are all the guarentee people gone now? We would just use a company "van" I E Suburban and pick up crews. Also off topic when i worked RR unemployment was 25$ per day and it took years and years to get that bumped up. So the idea the Unions or Carriers will ever do anything about this is a dream.
That isn't such a bad idea--but it has been quite a while since we've had anyone furloughed, and there will come a time when the furloughed people go back to work--then what? If I were a contract messenger company I wouldn't appreciate a month-to-month contract in which you could be bumped by a conductor on the loose.
We do have something slightly similar--occasionally our one remaining messenger-clerk gets an assist from an employee who's been off due to an injury. If he's progressed enough in his recovery to handle such light duties as delivering water or supplies, and so on, they'll put him back to work at his own pay rate--anything to get him off the sickness/injury program.
Also on this topic when i worked if a person was furloughed and on the guarentee the carrier would mark you up as a messenger checker. To any current rail workers are all the guarentee people gone now? We would just use a company "van" I E Suburban and pick up crews. Also off topic when i worked RR unemployment was 25$ per day and it took years and years to get that bumped up. So the idea the Unions or Carriers will ever do anything about this is a dream.
RRKen wrote: When we sit down with the carrier we get: " they are a separate comany from us, we will talk with them, but they met the basics for safety standards and follow our rules".
When we sit down with the carrier we get: " they are a separate comany from us, we will talk with them, but they met the basics for safety standards and follow our rules".
Might I suggest that these (highlighted item above) be modified. If these drivers/vehicles actually DO meet those standards, then those standards are woefully inadequate.
Perhaps the unions could suggest that the railroad officials (such as those persons that decide the "standards") satisfy their own business transportation needs by riding in these accidents-waiting-to-happen; perhaps then there might be a revision of those standards.
However, since the unions are merely posers, empty shells of what they once were, I doubt anything will change until many injuries and deaths have occurred.
I am sure it would not be hard to call Cleveland and get some hard numbers. But in the mean time, what purpose would it serve me to sit here and argue with you since you have no basis? My experience serves as credible enough.
When we sit down with the carrier we get: " they are a separate comany from us, we will talk with them, but they met the basics for safety standards and follow our rules". I doubt the Railway Labor Act had this kind of situation in mind, since we are not employed by them, we have no leverage in any negotiations.
Ulrich wrote:None in railroading...big deal. Lots of experience in transportation though...I'm doing well and living large with no union to prop up my pay either.
Now you're trolling Dude.....Nice try though.
zugmann wrote:There are numbers - but we don't have access to them. My statements are based on my experiences as well as those whom I work with. And no one is going to lie about almost being killed in a wreck...
Poppa_Zit wrote: It sounded a little belligerent to me, too. Why is it necessary to work for a railroad to understand what's being discussed here? It's not that complicated. If a van driver is driving erratically and you feel you're in severe danger, use your cell phone and report him to the police. Isn't that one of your rights?Is this a widespread problem? I have never seen a multi-railroad worker passenger van wreck reported in the Chicago area, and there's a lot of railroads here.You RR guys shouldn't be short-tempered with the rest of us. If you don't like a question or opinion or are tired of hearing what you consider stupid stuff like this, just ignore the thread instead of dressing the guy down by telling him he is embarrassing himself.
It sounded a little belligerent to me, too. Why is it necessary to work for a railroad to understand what's being discussed here? It's not that complicated. If a van driver is driving erratically and you feel you're in severe danger, use your cell phone and report him to the police. Isn't that one of your rights?
Is this a widespread problem? I have never seen a multi-railroad worker passenger van wreck reported in the Chicago area, and there's a lot of railroads here.
You RR guys shouldn't be short-tempered with the rest of us. If you don't like a question or opinion or are tired of hearing what you consider stupid stuff like this, just ignore the thread instead of dressing the guy down by telling him he is embarrassing himself.
The problem is wide spread. On the average of two accidents per year in Iowa alone which had bodily injury to the crews.
While a cell phone may work close to cities, a lot of Iowa/Minnesota has spotty at best coverage. When working the branch, we are far from any interstate, so there are areas of no coverage. And once the police arrive, and the driver is taken away, what happens to us? We sit by the road waiting for another van? While we have the right to turn down a van driver or van because of safety, that does us little good when the driver is on his fifth day in a row of working on his rest, and is nodding off on a two lane state road in the middle of Iowa.
Ulrich wrote:Not to my knowledge...usually the winning bidder isn't aware of the other bids. And don't be so sure your current van contractors are the cheapest either...If the railroads REALLY operated on the lowest price principal you guys would be working for 7 bucks an hour right along with those van drivers. There's a difference between lowest price and best value for the money... i.e. my price can be higher yet the overall package including service levels may yet be the best overall dollar value. For example a manufacturer who ships computers can hire a boxcar or he can pay more for a truck with an air ride suspension and door to door service. The boxcar is alot cheaper....but is it really cheaper once the freight claims start rolling in?
we are UNION.. the van drivers are NOT.. we have labor contracts that have gotten us a good wage.. the van drivers for the most part arnt union...
on the note of shippers and packaging... shock sensitive items such as electronics are packaged in a way by a manufactur to insure safe shipping regardless of what mode of transportation.. how do you think your computer came to you..or your TV or dvd player got here without being broken.. it was made in china..put onto a chines truck that more then likly has no suppention.. lifted off the ground and put into a ship with a crain that dosnt exactly drop it like a feather at times.. then put on a boat.. it made it all the way across the ocean on a ship in all kinds of weather and rough seas being sloshed back and forth..up and down in the container.. then offloaded by another crain onto a trailer chassie or train car.. shiped to god knows hwere ever ever type of road quilty and with some realy bad drivers and engineers... unloaded at a wharehouse by someone that tosses boxes around for a living.. then put on another truck..drivin by drivers on all types of road quiliys agin..then unloaded at min wage workers at walmart or best buy that toss the boxes around.. then bough buy you..taken home in your car..which isnt air ride equipted to your house.. yet when you take it out of the box..it works!!! speaks alot for PACKAGEING..NOT SHIPPING!!!!...
Steam Is King wrote: So it sort of comes down to money because the RR is suposed to pay for the ride, not the crew members.But I'd say even though you;ve complained for years, as long as crews keep getting into those vans the RR won't do anythingto change this.plus what"s the gaurantee paying more for the service will get you better vans and drivers?Chico
So it sort of comes down to money because the RR is suposed to pay for the ride, not the crew members.But I'd say even though you;ve complained for years, as long as crews keep getting into those vans the RR won't do anythingto change this.plus what"s the gaurantee paying more for the service will get you better vans and drivers?
Chico
If you die on hours of service, out in the middle of nowhere, who else can you get to find you, much less transport you home? What are you going to do, camp out by the tracks so you can go back on duty and catch the next train home? When will that be? Crews for the most part, have no choice in getting into that cab. They take what the carrier offers them.
Ulrich wrote:Well hopefully you guys get this resolved and get the safe transportation that you deserve.. for the rest of us...there may be a business opportunity here..
Good luck getting a wheel to turn. If you cannot outbid Armandillo or Ratzenburger, you will not make it.
Ulrich wrote:...I'm never the lowest bidder...
Never ever????
Ulrich wrote:No no not me CSX Engineer...I'm never the lowest bidder...I charge reasonable rates and get customers based on service. Some people get business on price...good luck to them. Price is always a factor of course, but it need not be the only one or even the main one.
Ulrich wrote:The school boards all run relatively safe operations with minimum wage drivers...that's just one example.
The school boards all run relatively safe operations with minimum wage drivers...that's just one example.
go ahead..get some vans and give it a shot.. maybe you can do better.. but my bets are you will find out that you will have the same divers that are just layed off from the company that lost the contract to you applying for the jobs....
Find me a taxi that would come to some of the places we go to..... We have no choice but to get in those vans. If we don't, then we would be looking for new jobs real quick. And the old addage rings true - you get what you pay for! It takes money to buy new vans, maintain them, and hire drivers. Less money and something has to suffer.
Steam Is King wrote:So it sort of comes down to money because the RR is suposed to pay for the ride, not the crew members.But I'd say even though you;ve complained for years, as long as crews keep getting into those vans the RR won't do anythingto change this.plus what"s the gaurantee paying more for the service will get you better vans and drivers?Chico
sanvtoman wrote: ....Anyway on this topic of underqualified drivers next time you see a van from an old folks home take a look at who is driving. Next time you see an ambulette or a wheelchair van look at the drivers.
....Anyway on this topic of underqualified drivers next time you see a van from an old folks home take a look at who is driving. Next time you see an ambulette or a wheelchair van look at the drivers.
Also check out your local school bus drivers.....
I stated in my previous post that we used to have messenger checkers years ago. They were members of the clerks union that hauled crews. Anyway on this topic of underqualified drivers next time you see a van from an old folks home take a look at who is driving. Next time you see an ambulette or a wheelchair van look at the drivers. I wouldnt let the family dog go with these people more less a loved one. Also in Ohio some private ambulance drivers make 8 dollars or so. As others have stated it all boils down to who is the cheapest. I can tell you when i was working no officials rode in pool vans. They rode in company cars or passenger cars that have big rear windows. I was fortunate enough to see Hays T Watkins himself. What a treat.
Are there any numbers to support this safety issue...i.e. number of injuries and deaths? Just curious..
Yeah, so we report a van. What will that get us? We will get crap for delaying a train. Or we will sit in a hotel for 40 hours because the TM will "forget" to arrange transportation home. Payback is a pain.
Yes, there are more wrecks than you will hear about. Just like there are more derailments than you will read about on internet forums.
As far as being short-tempered, I have been on both sides of the fence. I used to be a fan, now I am a rail. That is why I interject a little reality. I'm sure there are people on this forum that actually appreciate or enjoy a little inside view of how it "really works". You are also free to ignore comments from us. The track ain't just rule 251...
Poppa_Zit wrote:It sounded a little belligerent to me, too. Why is it necessary to work for a railroad to understand what's being discussed here? It's not that complicated. If a van driver is driving erratically and you feel you're in severe danger, use your cell phone and report him to the police. Isn't that one of your rights?Is this a widespread problem? I have never seen a multi-railroad worker passenger van wreck reported in the Chicago area, and there's a lot of railroads here.You RR guys shouldn't be short-tempered with the rest of us. If you don't like a question or opinion or are tired of hearing what you consider stupid stuff like this, just ignore the thread instead of dressing the guy down by telling him he is embarrassing himself.
Never said I had all the answers...all I've said is this should be fixable... that you guys shouldn't have to put up with unsafe crew transport conditions year after year. We sent men to the moon almost 40 years ago...we put rovers on Mars over 30 years ago. We've unravelled the mysteries of DNA, and we've been able to CLONE other species. Those things are in the realm of the POSSIBLE. Surely then coming up with a safe method of train crew transport is also within the realm of the possible...I know I'm an outsider looking in...but am I wrong? Maybe look at other industries for help..there's no shame in that. The school boards all run relatively safe operations with minimum wage drivers...that's just one example.
Ulrich wrote:Trucks are governed at 58 mph...and to answer Mr. Runyon's question, I take safety into account when quoting on business and when sourcing out to supplier vendors. You'd be surprised (I know I was when I looked at the data not long ago)...I rarely go for the lowest bid. I make more money overall by making a little bit on alot of loads then a lot on a few loads. Also, my customers are Fortune 500, and they don't put up with service failures...if I go cheap I risk losing the business...no second chances. So, the short anwser is I rarely go for the lowest bid.
someone made the comment about just calling a "true" taxi and splitting the bill.. it dont work like that.. the carriers DO NOT re-emburse us for for transportation costs when they are provideing a taxi for us.. and as zug said.. labor agreements dont alow us to do this even if a crew was stuiped enought to want to try it... we have to use company provided transporation.. aka contracted taxi service...that is just how it is... bottom line there....
so yes..it dose make a BIG differnce to someone that is outside the industury to say something about this situation..but unless YOU ARE A RAILROADER...and KNOW all the RULES REGULATIONS AND UNION COLLECTIVE BARGINGING AGREEMENTS IN PLACE... you will not understand where we are comeing from and why some of you are off base in your comments...
Things seem so simple when your on the outside looking in.. but belive me..they arent as simple as some people would like to make them seem... and this whole tread is a prime example how some people that are not in the industury think they know all the awnsers to all the questions without ever walking a moment in a railroaders shoes...
RRKen wrote: al-in-chgo wrote: QUOTE: It is quite obvious you do NOT work for a railroad. Please, you are really embarrassing yourself on this one. And there have been lots of van accidents over the years - and we are no closer to having real paid operators. By the time the railroad can get rid of one, another fly-by-night van service starts up with low rates and crappy vans. Really, was that tone necessary? - a. s. I actually think it is warranted. Since Ulrich refuses to listen to those who actually work for the railroads.
al-in-chgo wrote: QUOTE: It is quite obvious you do NOT work for a railroad. Please, you are really embarrassing yourself on this one. And there have been lots of van accidents over the years - and we are no closer to having real paid operators. By the time the railroad can get rid of one, another fly-by-night van service starts up with low rates and crappy vans. Really, was that tone necessary? - a. s.
QUOTE: It is quite obvious you do NOT work for a railroad. Please, you are really embarrassing yourself on this one. And there have been lots of van accidents over the years - and we are no closer to having real paid operators. By the time the railroad can get rid of one, another fly-by-night van service starts up with low rates and crappy vans.
Really, was that tone necessary? - a. s.
I actually think it is warranted. Since Ulrich refuses to listen to those who actually work for the railroads.
NO, I'm on duty. So I have to take the RR-provided ride.
Besides, I ain't paying for a ride. Next thing they'll want us to buy our own fuel for the engine.
Harry_Runyon wrote: Ulrich wrote: No...I don't work for a railroad..I own a trucking biz and happen to like trains. I've also had some dealings with the railroads as a customer. I don't feel embarrassed...I think the embarrassment rightly belongs to your industry collectively for not being able to solve this simple problem. Instead of hiring fly by nighters why not hire legitimate operators who have verifiable standards? That's all I'm saying and you guys are telling me that's impossible. Well...if it's impossible then find another job or put up with it... what other options are there?And as the owner of a company , are you prepared to say that you don't go with a low-ball bidder for a service to save yourself a few bucks?
Ulrich wrote: No...I don't work for a railroad..I own a trucking biz and happen to like trains. I've also had some dealings with the railroads as a customer. I don't feel embarrassed...I think the embarrassment rightly belongs to your industry collectively for not being able to solve this simple problem. Instead of hiring fly by nighters why not hire legitimate operators who have verifiable standards? That's all I'm saying and you guys are telling me that's impossible. Well...if it's impossible then find another job or put up with it... what other options are there?
No...I don't work for a railroad..I own a trucking biz and happen to like trains. I've also had some dealings with the railroads as a customer. I don't feel embarrassed...I think the embarrassment rightly belongs to your industry collectively for not being able to solve this simple problem. Instead of hiring fly by nighters why not hire legitimate operators who have verifiable standards? That's all I'm saying and you guys are telling me that's impossible. Well...if it's impossible then find another job or put up with it... what other options are there?
And as the owner of a company , are you prepared to say that you don't go with a low-ball bidder for a service to save yourself a few bucks?
Sure. Who among us wouldn't? Unless it could cost us our life. That's why we always hire union electricians instead of one of those "fix everything" guys.
Plus, even choosing the high bidder on such a transporation contract would not guarantee safer or better drivers and equipment. The van company would still hire the cheapest labor it could find. Wouldn't you?
I don't see how being a railroader or non-railroader would change a person's way of understanding this problem. If these RR-hired van drivers and rides are TRULY so life-threatening, wouldn't common sense dictate everyone in the crew splits the cost and use a cellphone to call a local cab company instead of taking a death ride? If I honestly had that much fear for my life, I'd never get into the vehicle.
I just get sick of arguing with people. Yes, there are aspects of our jobs that suck (just like anyone else). Why do we talk about them here? Look at the title of the site,,,,
Ulrich wrote:No...I don't work for a railroad..I own a trucking biz and happen to like trains. I've also had some dealings with the railroads as a customer. I don't feel embarrassed...I think the embarrassment rightly belongs to your industry collectively for not being able to solve this simple problem. Instead of hiring fly by nighters why not hire legitimate operators who have verifiable standards? That's all I'm saying and you guys are telling me that's impossible. Well...if it's impossible then find another job or put up with it... what other options are there?
zugmann wrote:It is quite obvious you do NOT work for a railroad. Please, you are really embarrassing yourself on this one. And there have been lots of van accidents over the years - and we are no closer to having real paid operators. By the time the railroad can get rid of one, another fly-by-night van service starts up with low rates and crappy vans. Ulrich wrote:All I've stated is that this safety issue is fixable and that it has been allowed to drag on for so long is inexcusable. If the basic setup (i.e. carrier hiring contractors) is a problem then that should be addressed. Your membership can make that recommendation. Things can be fixed very quickly...and sadly...all it would take to fix this is one serious accident.
It is quite obvious you do NOT work for a railroad. Please, you are really embarrassing yourself on this one. And there have been lots of van accidents over the years - and we are no closer to having real paid operators. By the time the railroad can get rid of one, another fly-by-night van service starts up with low rates and crappy vans.
Ulrich wrote:All I've stated is that this safety issue is fixable and that it has been allowed to drag on for so long is inexcusable. If the basic setup (i.e. carrier hiring contractors) is a problem then that should be addressed. Your membership can make that recommendation. Things can be fixed very quickly...and sadly...all it would take to fix this is one serious accident.
All I've stated is that this safety issue is fixable and that it has been allowed to drag on for so long is inexcusable. If the basic setup (i.e. carrier hiring contractors) is a problem then that should be addressed. Your membership can make that recommendation.
Things can be fixed very quickly...and sadly...all it would take to fix this is one serious accident.
Ulrich wrote:Every industry is competitive...that's capitalism. Another fact to be considered...the railroads today are more profitable than ever, so there's money on the table to fix this problem. There's no need to hire underqualified people at $7.00 an hour. The crux of the problem appears to be a lack of leadership...you need someone who will say "let's get er done". We're not talking the impossible here...nobody is asking for the unions or the rails to cooperate on putting a man on Mars. Lots of much bigger problems have been solved in the past...If this is indeed a serious safety issue like you say it is then it should never have been allowed to drag on for years. But I'll conceed that people with the "let's get er done" attitude are few and far between today...Given a problem most will ask for a raise and then come up with 50 reasons why it can't be done.
Again you miss the point in all this. The carriers only want the best value. The Labor Organizations want safety. Since this is in part, a working condition, the Labor Organizations have a right in negotiating a resolution. However, we are talking about contractors, and not company owned services. That is very hard to negotiate since it has been proven, the carrier has no say in the overall operations of a contractor, except to lay out specifications for contracting. I have yet to see a labor agreement, which covers the behaviors of entities not directly involved in the negotiations.
An example. We have a city street leading into our yard. It is not improved at all, laden with potholes, and hazards (excessive dust). Since it effects the employees covered under a labor agreement, you would think those conditions could be fixed. Yet, the City cannot be forced by any labor agreement, nor will the carrier force the City, to improve that road. Neither party has any standing. The same exists with the relationship between carrier and van contractor. There is no law that supports it.
Ulrich wrote: This should be an easy fix...govern the vehicles for one thing, make sure the drivers are trained properly and otherwise qualified, amd make sure they are scheduled properly. I know I'm leaving out alot of the detail...the HOW and the how much $$$...but that's the idea. Truckers have long since learned that SPENDING money on their drivers and recruitment process to ensure that drivers are qualified translates into long term SAVINGS down the road. Safe carriers are ultimately more cost effective than their less professional corner cutting rivals. That same reasoning would also apply to crew transporters. Maybe Trains could do a story on crew transporters...let's hear the other side of the story.
This should be an easy fix...govern the vehicles for one thing, make sure the drivers are trained properly and otherwise qualified, amd make sure they are scheduled properly. I know I'm leaving out alot of the detail...the HOW and the how much $$$...but that's the idea.
Truckers have long since learned that SPENDING money on their drivers and recruitment process to ensure that drivers are qualified translates into long term SAVINGS down the road. Safe carriers are ultimately more cost effective than their less professional corner cutting rivals. That same reasoning would also apply to crew transporters.
Maybe Trains could do a story on crew transporters...let's hear the other side of the story.
What other side of the story? Fact, the industry is competitive. Fact, they pay their drivers very little. Fact, they never have enough equipment or drivers. Fact, scheduling in certain times of the year just will not work due to shortages of manpower and equipment. Fact, the carriers will only pay the minimum in a particular market. Fact, during bad weather, there is never any way of having enough vans on the road, if at all.
Now, who the hell do you think will work long hours for $7 (sometimes less) an hour and be on call? There are times when there are almost no calls in a week. We can run an ad for drivers for weeks without getting one application. There are places that can hire them, but end up shipping them off to out of town terminals to work all the time. How long would anyone put up with that?
Keep the guesses coming tho, it is entertaining to read.
al-in-chgo wrote: Ulrich wrote:Why not give crews an allowance and they use that to arrange their own transportation? That way they can hire who they want and quit their griping over who their employer chooses.Or use Enterprise and rent the cars? Or would that be too expensive? Or would the crews be collectively too tired to take the wheel?
Ulrich wrote:Why not give crews an allowance and they use that to arrange their own transportation? That way they can hire who they want and quit their griping over who their employer chooses.
Or use Enterprise and rent the cars? Or would that be too expensive? Or would the crews be collectively too tired to take the wheel?
I think insurance would be issues with both of those ideas.
An "expensive model collector"
It's been an issue for years? Then what's wrong with your union representation? If it were me I would kick up a stink to get this fixed OR find another job...one that doesn't endanger my life. But HEY...that's just me!
Seriously...we're not splitting the atom here..
The Big Six have gotten so big, I'm surprised they don't each buy a chauffeur service and make it a corporate captive -- with standards, and not in thrall to other events, like proms and snowstorms. Because it IS a big labor issue, and it would seem it could be settled cost-effectively by a more engaged management.
Ulrich wrote:I would take all that bitchin with a grain of salt...some people are just never happy.
You sir, need to get a clue. The UTU and BLE have been fighting this issue for years. And now as a BLE officer, I can attest there is no more single issue that upsets my members than vans and their drivers.
Ulrich wrote: Hey Zugman you have union representation...no? Then why not get them involved in this SAFETY issue instead of whining about it here?...just an IDEAR...hahahahahahahahaha
Hey Zugman you have union representation...no? Then why not get them involved in this SAFETY issue instead of whining about it here?...just an IDEAR...
hahahahahahahahaha
Sure laugh at this. For years this has been an issue. Carriers hires contactors. Complaints to carrier are sent to contractor. At one time, when a crew slid off an icy road in Central Iowa, the carrier said it was not responsible since it was a contractor, despite the crew still being on duty. Courts made short order of that issue. Carrier asked for "van" insurance, no dice. Contractor short of help, hires any mope that can walk and sign their name and are ill trained. Contractors have no way of handling and tracking complaints on drivers. Some contractors treat their drivers worse than railroads as far as rest issues.
To their credit. Carriers will no longer deadhead or send out crews on the branch when vans cannot run. Local van managers look at regional road conditions before sending a driver out in winter, and has authority over UP and the van HQ on this issue. Van company now has 4WD vehicles for use on branch line territory. No more will a large rear wheel van with no rear heat be sent out on icy roads to carry crews. Vans are cleaned every day. Employees are empowered to refuse a van or driver on sight.
Is it any wonder, the old heads jump off of road jobs in the winter months because of the van issues? I no longer have to worry, I work a yard job. This is not about whining, it is about our lives.
In Iowa depending where you, the UP uses Rentzenberger, Express Shuttle, a local company aroung Clinton whose name I can't remember, and Armadillo/Rail Crew Express. There is also a small company used for back up in the North Central Iowa area.
Armadillo was rumored to have ties to the UP through a relative of a board member. From what I understand, Rail Crew Express (RCX) is headquarted in Canada but is tied to Armadillo. One driver said when RCX took over they had to reapply for their jobs at lower pay.
I was told a story about a crew that was picked up over at Otis (near Cedar Rapids). They were dead on the law. Once loaded up, both crewmembers went to sleep while the van took off for Clinton. When one of them woke up, they found a driver who was close to running out of driving time and lost. Turns out the driver who was fairly new made a few wrong turn and ended up near Manchester, Iowa. They were able to get the driver back to Marion, Iowa. That's where the driver ran out of hours. They had called for another van. The one that shows up is also out of hours. Another call is made and a third van is dispatched. Meanwhile, the second van is going back to Clinton, so the original van wants to follow him, but neither can take passengers. The crew is made to take their luggage out and left at a convenience store while both vans take off. It's about 4AM and the crew calls the corridor manager. He immediately orders a taxi out of Cedar Rapids to pick them up, appologizes for what's happened and promises to talk to the van company. All told, they were close to 20 hours on duty before finally tying up at Clinton.
I've been lucky. I've never had that big of a problem like they had.
Yes I am union, and yes, this issue is beat with a dead horse to the carriers. But the lowest dollar wins. Tell you what; how about you get a job with the railroad and actually ride these vans and then report back? Otherwise you are just blowing hot air.
Ulrich wrote:Hey Zugman you have union representation...no? Then why not get them involved in this SAFETY issue instead of whining about it here?...just an IDEAR...hahahahahahahahaha
Murphy Siding wrote: As scary as these situations sound, why doesn't it become a bigger issue at contract time?
My guess is that the railroads don't want to pay more money for better drivers. Some of those companies pay their drivers somewhere around minimum wage. Some drivers I know are retired and do it because they like it, these are generally the best drivers.
Harry_Runyon wrote: Ulrich wrote:I would take all that bitchin with a grain of salt...some people are just never happy. Crews should be happy they are placed in an unsafe situation?Do you even work for a railroad? Obviously not or else he would understand where we are coming from. It's so easy for everyone to say that we female dog too much because they have never been in our shoes. Screw Six Flags save your money and just ride with some of these screw ball drivers, I promise it's way more of an adreniline rush. There are some good drivers out there but the bad ones far out weigh the good ones. Ulrich, lets strap you in with a driver who has been up 24 hours and has missing screws, driving a cab that is less than safe on an unfamiliar stretch of road at 2 am and see how happy that makes you.
Crews should be happy they are placed in an unsafe situation?
Do you even work for a railroad?
Obviously not or else he would understand where we are coming from. It's so easy for everyone to say that we female dog too much because they have never been in our shoes. Screw Six Flags save your money and just ride with some of these screw ball drivers, I promise it's way more of an adreniline rush. There are some good drivers out there but the bad ones far out weigh the good ones. Ulrich, lets strap you in with a driver who has been up 24 hours and has missing screws, driving a cab that is less than safe on an unfamiliar stretch of road at 2 am and see how happy that makes you.
Attention please!
Could some of you please check around your villages..it appears that your idiot is missing.
zugmann wrote:yeah... doing 80mph on the interstate with a van driver that can barely stay awake, and had little clue where he is going. We are just a bunch of whiners.
Or you wake up from your haze after 14 hours on duty to find your cab driver is in the eastbound lane going west. Yeah we are whiners.
Poppa_Zit wrote: wabash1 wrote:Yes there is more than 1 cab company and they haul for all the carriers. the class of driver is just 1 step higher than a drunk. some can just see the dash and others just over the dash. on are trips to the motel we are 60 % driving on the shoulder ( either side) the other 30% we are in are lane ( or the one they drifted to ) that leaves 10% I cant tell you what is going on at that time or can the others as this is the time we are changing are shorts. this is why we have had are off property insurance increased, and someone says that the ns uses a cab called PTI what terminals do they service Rail-Roadwarrior wrote:I've always thought they get those drivers from some kind of work release program. 98% should not be on the road. No matter how long I have been up and working, I could never muster up the nerve to go to sleep with some of these jokers at the wheel. Most had been up just as long as us so we had to stay awake to keep them up. I know some crew members who have actually had to drive theirself so the driver could sleep, but you didn't hear that from me. Boy, I guess it's a good thing we don't have many van drivers with lawyers here as members.
wabash1 wrote:Yes there is more than 1 cab company and they haul for all the carriers. the class of driver is just 1 step higher than a drunk. some can just see the dash and others just over the dash. on are trips to the motel we are 60 % driving on the shoulder ( either side) the other 30% we are in are lane ( or the one they drifted to ) that leaves 10% I cant tell you what is going on at that time or can the others as this is the time we are changing are shorts. this is why we have had are off property insurance increased, and someone says that the ns uses a cab called PTI what terminals do they service
Rail-Roadwarrior wrote:I've always thought they get those drivers from some kind of work release program. 98% should not be on the road. No matter how long I have been up and working, I could never muster up the nerve to go to sleep with some of these jokers at the wheel. Most had been up just as long as us so we had to stay awake to keep them up. I know some crew members who have actually had to drive theirself so the driver could sleep, but you didn't hear that from me.
Boy, I guess it's a good thing we don't have many van drivers with lawyers here as members.
I have no problem with that, if they want to take me to court fine, Ive had a few drivers fired and not behind thier backs either i told them to follow me and we report to the train masters office, and both exsplain what happen, then we go are seperate ways me to work and him fired going home, as if these drivers didnt stay distracted trying to hear what crews are talking about then they get on thier cell phones. we have stopped this for now,
You also have to remember that these vans/cabs/etc, are used for more than just taking crews between hotels and the on/off duty points. They take dogcatch crews to trains and bring the dead ones home. They take deadhead crews from one terminal to the other. They assist in taking trainmen from one end of the train (or yard) to the other for various duties.
In addition to the regular crew transport companies, we also get to deadhead terminal to terminal by charter bus. Lately while the track work project out in Nebraska is going on, they have two or three buses on a regular route. Sometimes only two or three crews are on the big bus. A few times they decide not to deadhead so the bus runs the route empty.
I haven't had a chance to get back to Gillette, WY in a few years, but the last few times I was there, they had a small fleet of Renzenberger vans there for the coal line.
I get to the BNSF HQ in Ft Worth every so often and there's often a Renzenberger van there picking up folks at the office. Must use them for some kind of suttle there too. If I recall, they're out of Shawnee KS.
By "contracting" with one company for all transportation the company pays less that it would cost to hire per need. Divide the present contracted cost amongst the crew and each individual would not get enough to pay for the transportation they need. One crew might need more because they get picked up 20 miles from the nearest lodging and another can pocket the allowance because they can just walk across the street.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
csx has a crew company haul crews but they also had a crew and engines come from garrett to rescue the 509 in defiance yard.
stay safe
joe
Deshler Ohio-crossroads of the B&O Matt eats your fries.YUM! Clinton st viaduct undefeated against too tall trucks!!!(voted to be called the "Clinton St. can opener").
Riding in a railroad contracted crew van is the one thing I miss LEAST about railroading! I always thought each time was going to end up as my last trip, except for the ride in the hearse.
At one time there was a driver in Gillette that could only drive 6pm-6am, he was on work release for first degree manslaughter. He actually was a good driver. Then there was a company in Bettendorf,IA that used only Checker cabs. It had been along time since they were new. They'd show up with the doors wired shut. Our favorite was the one with no floorboards in the rear. Just put your feet on the frame and watch the pavement go by.
Wow I had no idea it was that bad. Glad to hear there are a few good ones. I would guess the railroads try to get by as cheep as they can and get what they pay for. You would think with all they talk about safety they would have safe drivers hauling the crews. Thanks for all the info.
CSX uses "Quad A" in my neck of the woods. I have no idea how good they are. I'll agree with Carl - one of our 'old heads' here drove crew transport for quite a while, and I have no doubt she's an excellent driver. On the other hand, sometimes she had to pull some pretty long runs, which don't do anyone any good.
Haven't seen her here in a while, but maybe she'll chime in.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
J. Edgar wrote:if riding in a PTI van is scary.... and ive riden a few over the years....try this....many PTI drivers in Mi end up getting hired into train service.....i was hired by CSX in 97 out of Grand Rapids and there was 2 others in my class.....they both were PTI drivers.....and it took them 2 4 weeks longer to get set up.....even with cell phones maps and a CSX radio PTI drivers still get lost.....but realy its not as bad as riding in a regular taxi....ive rejected taxi cabs on account of unsafe cars or drivers....doesnt make the DSPR or TM's happy but hey.....safety first.....the other side of it is that there are a few safe responsible drivers on their payroll.......as well as some hotties
At least when they doze off they won't swerve and run off the tracks.
The last job i could have bid was called a "messenger checker" i think. Anyway it was a person in a company van that picked up train crews. I am not sure about on the road but around terminals and yards that was the job in the 80s. I think it was part of BRAC or the clerks union.
We have at least one Forum poster here who would take issue with the generalizations being made here. I happen to know that she's an excellent driver.
At our yard, we have regularly-assigned Renzenberger drivers. If there are problems, the railroaders have no qualms about calling our Safety Hotline, and they are dealt with.
Because of issues similar to those post above, we use Amtrak to transport crews whenever possible.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
Rail-Roadwarrior wrote:I've always thought they get those drivers from some kind of work release program. 98% should not be on the road. No matter how long I have been up and working, I could never muster up the nerve to go to sleep with some of these jokers at the wheel. Most had been up just as long as us so we had to stay awake to keep them up. I know some crew members who have actually had to drive theirself so the driver could sleep, but you didn't hear that from me. Correct me if I'm wrong but I beleive CSX uses PTI exclusively unless there is a driver shortage.
atleast on the Detroit service lane yes its PTI....and they admit theyre....overworked underpaid and driving with minimal rest....sometimes it beats 36+ hours in the away term
Expresslane wrote: I saw something about a company that hauls train crews to where they are needed. Are these vans and drivers part of the railroad or a contractor? Heard on called "armadillo". Is there one company that hauls for lets say the Union Pacific or many different ones for a railroad that big? I know from my short time on the CNW they use one cab company for their needs around the Chicago area. Can anyone give me more info? Thanks.
I saw something about a company that hauls train crews to where they are needed. Are these vans and drivers part of the railroad or a contractor? Heard on called "armadillo". Is there one company that hauls for lets say the Union Pacific or many different ones for a railroad that big? I know from my short time on the CNW they use one cab company for their needs around the Chicago area. Can anyone give me more info? Thanks.
Yes there is more than 1 cab company and they haul for all the carriers. the class of driver is just 1 step higher than a drunk. some can just see the dash and others just over the dash. on are trips to the motel we are 60 % driving on the shoulder ( either side) the other 30% we are in are lane ( or the one they drifted to ) that leaves 10% I cant tell you what is going on at that time or can the others as this is the time we are changing are shorts. this is why we have had are off property insurance increased, and someone says that the ns uses a cab called PTI what terminals do they service
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