Dan
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Murphy Siding wrote: Has this always been a problem, or something that has changed over time?
No one has yet been forthcoming with that detail.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Harry_Runyon wrote: Ulrich wrote:That's right AL...you would think that the rails who claim the sky is falling like Chicken Little on this SAFETY issue would at least have the numbers handy to support their onerous (and frankly dubious & overstated) claim. Hopefully when their reps sit down with their counterparts in management they'll have those numbers because without em they look like d*** FOOLS. DOH!!!!! OK now...lets review these numbers again: Big Al and you have how many years combined in railroading?
Ulrich wrote:That's right AL...you would think that the rails who claim the sky is falling like Chicken Little on this SAFETY issue would at least have the numbers handy to support their onerous (and frankly dubious & overstated) claim. Hopefully when their reps sit down with their counterparts in management they'll have those numbers because without em they look like d*** FOOLS. DOH!!!!!
OK now...lets review these numbers again: Big Al and you have how many years combined in railroading?
While I usually agree with you, I don't see how that's relative to the discussion, Harry. The business principles employed in running a railroad are not unique.
The complaints are coming from TWO railroaders here. TWO. And now a third person familiar with shuttles takes issue with their complaints. Uh-huh.
A broad statement was made... and someone requested documentation. To answer with "you cannot understand because you don't work for a railroad" leaves a lot to be desired. Reminds me of the illogical fallacy: "All sick people take pills. Therefore, if they stop taking pills, they won't be sick."
Anyway, the issue here apparently is low pay of the van drivers. It may be a job, but it is not a "career" -- like railroading is a career.
Really, what special skills do van drivers need (beyond a CDL) that makes them invaluable to their employer -- or is it the type of job where you can plug just about anybody in and out as needed? Supply and demand, right? There's nothing special about driving. Millions of Americans do it every day. Like, it's not the kind of job where a guy can get paid $75,000 a year and the employer still makes a tidy profit.
Interesting topic, and obviously very emotional one to the crew members. Best of luck to you in getting it fixed.
I am not a railroader, nor employed in one of the taxi services, so I will keep my limited opinions to myself. However, Ulrich, I think you have some really solid points. I too make my living off of performance and hate it when I am the "low bidder". BTW, do you need any graphics for your trucks? If so, contact me off line, you will get the best quality at a fair price. References obviously included from some of the largest transportation companies in the US.
I had one experience with a crew and taxi. A couple of years ago I had my scanner on and heard the frustration of a crew trying to instruct a taxi where to pick them up. It was a very isolated location (a MOW siding) with no road access. After 10 minutes of listening, my 11 year old son and I went out and got the crew. We told them of overhearing and instructed the crew where to tell the taxi to meet us (local convienence store).
When the crew saw my 11 year old, they went nuts and invited us into the locomotive and gave us (mainly him) the tour, plus a bottle of water, and a couple of railroad things. As we were walking to my Jeep, another car pulled up and the crew told us to be cool...they were certain it was a local railroad manager coming to help. Nope...it was another railfan, that drove over 10 miles to lend a helping hand on a cold winter night.
It was only 1/2 mile to the C store and the van met us there. It was a great night for my son as he not only got a tour of a locomotive but also got to "rescue the Grand Truck".
The next morning I drove to the siding to take a quick picture of the MOW train. The crew recognized me and showed their appreciation by couple of quick blasts on the horn.
Now, looking back and reading this thread...it was a pretty tough situation for the crew and the cab. The crew couldnt give local directions, as they were from Battle Creek, over 100 miles away and the taxi had NO IDEA where this isolated siding was.
In a perfect world, the taxis would have GPS units, great suspension systems, and well paid drivers, plus perhaps a cooler with water or soft drinks. The odds of that occuring? Probably not too good.
Be safe.
ed
while doing a search for another subject ref. Renzenberger i found this thread, its very interesting...i must admit some of the things said bothered me a bit. i am a driver, a damn good one, i have never been to jail, im not on work release, i have never been in a accident with my van or my pov, ever ( knock on wood), im not an idiot, drunk or a drug addict and i could tell you some doozies about some of the railroaders ive picked up but the majority of them are damn good people. they are hard working, easy going, generous, funny people and i cant think of another group of guys i would rather work around. i say generous not because i beg money off the crews but generous in spirit. i could also say those things about most of the drivers i know. there are good and bad employees on every job.
I think most of these complaints should be aimed at the drivers employer and not the drivers.
here are some facts about renzenberger
training consisted of sitting in a room watching some short videos on fouling the track, it was really about cars getting hit by trains not the specifics of driving a pick up van near the tracks or in a yard. also some videos on safe driving, using the msg system,etc total 8hrs
road training consisted of going on the road with another driver and seeing some of the pick up locations, driving the van a little, riding along on some pick ups.total 16hrs
thats it, but not sure what else could be done, maybe a defensive driving course but they are not going to pay for that.
my very first day on the job solo i was in the yard driving the dodgers around,i think every driver should do it, they were great as far as me being new, im sure they see that a lot.
as you know the pay is a joke, while in training its minimum wage, yes, minimum wage.
starting is 0.16 cents a mile and i think 6.25 hr on any wait time and yard shifts
maximum driver pay is 0.18 or 0.19 cents a mile and 7.50 hr wait time.
lead drivers get 250.00 extra dollars a month, thats it. it doesnt come close to compensating them for what they do.
we are 10 hrs drive time/ 15 hrs on duty time a day max, i dont care who you are you cant spend 15 hrs in a van and still stay sharp.
if they send you somewhere you are not familiar with you are on your own to find it, my drivers book consists of some hand drawn maps of some of the pick up points but you need to get close for the maps to even start to help.
the safety bonus program is a joke, i wont even get into that..lol.
i could go on and on, why not get a diff job?, well..i like the job itself, not the pay or the way the company operates.
ill see ya out there
Bishop
Ulrich wrote:I'm not arguing...in fact I'm going to AGREE with you and call it a night. You've convinced me that you guys (unions/carriers/contractors) can't fix this problem. Have a nice evening.
The problem can be fixed, but it won't. You'll just get the same message:
"Well, sure, we'd like to do that, but our profits this year are just not as high as we expected them to be...."
That same excuse, er, statement is used whenever anything safety-related comes up.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
sanvtoman wrote: Also on this topic when i worked if a person was furloughed and on the guarentee the carrier would mark you up as a messenger checker. To any current rail workers are all the guarentee people gone now? We would just use a company "van" I E Suburban and pick up crews. Also off topic when i worked RR unemployment was 25$ per day and it took years and years to get that bumped up. So the idea the Unions or Carriers will ever do anything about this is a dream.
That isn't such a bad idea--but it has been quite a while since we've had anyone furloughed, and there will come a time when the furloughed people go back to work--then what? If I were a contract messenger company I wouldn't appreciate a month-to-month contract in which you could be bumped by a conductor on the loose.
We do have something slightly similar--occasionally our one remaining messenger-clerk gets an assist from an employee who's been off due to an injury. If he's progressed enough in his recovery to handle such light duties as delivering water or supplies, and so on, they'll put him back to work at his own pay rate--anything to get him off the sickness/injury program.
Also on this topic when i worked if a person was furloughed and on the guarentee the carrier would mark you up as a messenger checker. To any current rail workers are all the guarentee people gone now? We would just use a company "van" I E Suburban and pick up crews. Also off topic when i worked RR unemployment was 25$ per day and it took years and years to get that bumped up. So the idea the Unions or Carriers will ever do anything about this is a dream.
RRKen wrote: When we sit down with the carrier we get: " they are a separate comany from us, we will talk with them, but they met the basics for safety standards and follow our rules".
When we sit down with the carrier we get: " they are a separate comany from us, we will talk with them, but they met the basics for safety standards and follow our rules".
Might I suggest that these (highlighted item above) be modified. If these drivers/vehicles actually DO meet those standards, then those standards are woefully inadequate.
Perhaps the unions could suggest that the railroad officials (such as those persons that decide the "standards") satisfy their own business transportation needs by riding in these accidents-waiting-to-happen; perhaps then there might be a revision of those standards.
However, since the unions are merely posers, empty shells of what they once were, I doubt anything will change until many injuries and deaths have occurred.
I am sure it would not be hard to call Cleveland and get some hard numbers. But in the mean time, what purpose would it serve me to sit here and argue with you since you have no basis? My experience serves as credible enough.
When we sit down with the carrier we get: " they are a separate comany from us, we will talk with them, but they met the basics for safety standards and follow our rules". I doubt the Railway Labor Act had this kind of situation in mind, since we are not employed by them, we have no leverage in any negotiations.
Ulrich wrote:None in railroading...big deal. Lots of experience in transportation though...I'm doing well and living large with no union to prop up my pay either.
Now you're trolling Dude.....Nice try though.
zugmann wrote:There are numbers - but we don't have access to them. My statements are based on my experiences as well as those whom I work with. And no one is going to lie about almost being killed in a wreck...
Poppa_Zit wrote: It sounded a little belligerent to me, too. Why is it necessary to work for a railroad to understand what's being discussed here? It's not that complicated. If a van driver is driving erratically and you feel you're in severe danger, use your cell phone and report him to the police. Isn't that one of your rights?Is this a widespread problem? I have never seen a multi-railroad worker passenger van wreck reported in the Chicago area, and there's a lot of railroads here.You RR guys shouldn't be short-tempered with the rest of us. If you don't like a question or opinion or are tired of hearing what you consider stupid stuff like this, just ignore the thread instead of dressing the guy down by telling him he is embarrassing himself.
It sounded a little belligerent to me, too. Why is it necessary to work for a railroad to understand what's being discussed here? It's not that complicated. If a van driver is driving erratically and you feel you're in severe danger, use your cell phone and report him to the police. Isn't that one of your rights?
Is this a widespread problem? I have never seen a multi-railroad worker passenger van wreck reported in the Chicago area, and there's a lot of railroads here.
You RR guys shouldn't be short-tempered with the rest of us. If you don't like a question or opinion or are tired of hearing what you consider stupid stuff like this, just ignore the thread instead of dressing the guy down by telling him he is embarrassing himself.
The problem is wide spread. On the average of two accidents per year in Iowa alone which had bodily injury to the crews.
While a cell phone may work close to cities, a lot of Iowa/Minnesota has spotty at best coverage. When working the branch, we are far from any interstate, so there are areas of no coverage. And once the police arrive, and the driver is taken away, what happens to us? We sit by the road waiting for another van? While we have the right to turn down a van driver or van because of safety, that does us little good when the driver is on his fifth day in a row of working on his rest, and is nodding off on a two lane state road in the middle of Iowa.
Ulrich wrote:Not to my knowledge...usually the winning bidder isn't aware of the other bids. And don't be so sure your current van contractors are the cheapest either...If the railroads REALLY operated on the lowest price principal you guys would be working for 7 bucks an hour right along with those van drivers. There's a difference between lowest price and best value for the money... i.e. my price can be higher yet the overall package including service levels may yet be the best overall dollar value. For example a manufacturer who ships computers can hire a boxcar or he can pay more for a truck with an air ride suspension and door to door service. The boxcar is alot cheaper....but is it really cheaper once the freight claims start rolling in?
we are UNION.. the van drivers are NOT.. we have labor contracts that have gotten us a good wage.. the van drivers for the most part arnt union...
on the note of shippers and packaging... shock sensitive items such as electronics are packaged in a way by a manufactur to insure safe shipping regardless of what mode of transportation.. how do you think your computer came to you..or your TV or dvd player got here without being broken.. it was made in china..put onto a chines truck that more then likly has no suppention.. lifted off the ground and put into a ship with a crain that dosnt exactly drop it like a feather at times.. then put on a boat.. it made it all the way across the ocean on a ship in all kinds of weather and rough seas being sloshed back and forth..up and down in the container.. then offloaded by another crain onto a trailer chassie or train car.. shiped to god knows hwere ever ever type of road quilty and with some realy bad drivers and engineers... unloaded at a wharehouse by someone that tosses boxes around for a living.. then put on another truck..drivin by drivers on all types of road quiliys agin..then unloaded at min wage workers at walmart or best buy that toss the boxes around.. then bough buy you..taken home in your car..which isnt air ride equipted to your house.. yet when you take it out of the box..it works!!! speaks alot for PACKAGEING..NOT SHIPPING!!!!...
csx engineer
Steam Is King wrote: So it sort of comes down to money because the RR is suposed to pay for the ride, not the crew members.But I'd say even though you;ve complained for years, as long as crews keep getting into those vans the RR won't do anythingto change this.plus what"s the gaurantee paying more for the service will get you better vans and drivers?Chico
So it sort of comes down to money because the RR is suposed to pay for the ride, not the crew members.But I'd say even though you;ve complained for years, as long as crews keep getting into those vans the RR won't do anythingto change this.plus what"s the gaurantee paying more for the service will get you better vans and drivers?
Chico
If you die on hours of service, out in the middle of nowhere, who else can you get to find you, much less transport you home? What are you going to do, camp out by the tracks so you can go back on duty and catch the next train home? When will that be? Crews for the most part, have no choice in getting into that cab. They take what the carrier offers them.
Ulrich wrote:Well hopefully you guys get this resolved and get the safe transportation that you deserve.. for the rest of us...there may be a business opportunity here..
Good luck getting a wheel to turn. If you cannot outbid Armandillo or Ratzenburger, you will not make it.
Ulrich wrote:...I'm never the lowest bidder...
Never ever????
Ulrich wrote:No no not me CSX Engineer...I'm never the lowest bidder...I charge reasonable rates and get customers based on service. Some people get business on price...good luck to them. Price is always a factor of course, but it need not be the only one or even the main one.
Ulrich wrote:The school boards all run relatively safe operations with minimum wage drivers...that's just one example.
The school boards all run relatively safe operations with minimum wage drivers...that's just one example.
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