This thread brings back memories..
I'm not talking about kangaroo courts. I am speaking of people out here working that are a danger to all others around them. I have no real issue witht he unions protecting people... but when you get to a type of person that is in the wrong profession - that is where we will split paths. Same with any other job. Our education system would be much better if we could get rid of teachers that have no intention of teaching. But once they get tenure, lotsa luck. Same here. I'm sorry, but I value my life too much to want some dangerous guy out here.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann wrote: I'm also against how unions (any of them) blindly protect the incompetent. There are some people that should not be allowed near a RR, period. Jsut like there are people that shouldn't be teachers, shouldn't be cops, etc... yet the union has to, by its nature, stand up for these people. How allowing an unsafe person to continue to operate helps my safety is beyond me... Now I'm getting off topic. Have a nice day.
I'm also against how unions (any of them) blindly protect the incompetent. There are some people that should not be allowed near a RR, period. Jsut like there are people that shouldn't be teachers, shouldn't be cops, etc... yet the union has to, by its nature, stand up for these people. How allowing an unsafe person to continue to operate helps my safety is beyond me...
Now I'm getting off topic. Have a nice day.
Unions do not 'blindly protect the incompetent', however they do their best to insure that the Carriers follow the contract rules concerning discipline when actions of an incompetent are brought to a disciplinary investigation. The Carriers agreed to certain rules and procedures when they signed the contracts with the Union. It is the Union's responsibility to see and insure that those rules and procedures are complied with. The Carriers, if they could get away with it would be the Kangaroo Court and Hanging Judge all rolled into one. Guilty because of the way you blink your eyes....NEXT!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Something I recently learned is that the first contract taxi service to begin on the former SF was @ Belen, NM in 1981. Could this have been the first of any rr? Interesting thought.
Unfortunately you speak as if everything is set in stone. It is not. There will be one-man crews. After how many remote crashes - I see no proposals of shelving the technology.
Te carriers will have it their way. If you think I'm going to add extra stress to my life trying to change the inevitable, you are mistaken. (life just ain't worth the ulcer) And this country isn't exactly faring on the side of labor either. I wish it wasn't that way... but you can only fight the current so long.
zugmann wrote: I guess I just have a different vision of what is happening in our future. I see the RRs becoming non-union. The intermodal yards already are. We have conductors running switchers. The lines are already blurred. I even hear talk about "utility engineers". It just isn't worth the hassle. If I don't leave it at the yard office... I turn into another person, as RRKen can attest. I can't imagine dealing with union business in my off-time... I need zugmann time.They say the average person changes career 7 times or more in their lifetimes... that means I still have at least 6 to go.
I guess I just have a different vision of what is happening in our future. I see the RRs becoming non-union. The intermodal yards already are. We have conductors running switchers. The lines are already blurred. I even hear talk about "utility engineers". It just isn't worth the hassle. If I don't leave it at the yard office... I turn into another person, as RRKen can attest. I can't imagine dealing with union business in my off-time... I need zugmann time.
They say the average person changes career 7 times or more in their lifetimes... that means I still have at least 6 to go.
It is guys like us old timers that give you the bennifits yo are about to see comming down the pike. In other words if you think you can start at the top after someone who has been out here for 25years for get it. These men put in time in worse conditions than you will ever dream of. whine as you may it wont change, but to save you we in the blet are taking advantage and making sure there is a job for you, always a engineer on thru frieght any job that is not remote controll now will have a engineer on it and those men are protected and those jobs will be protected. ( engineer utility) But if you quit being selfish and go to meetings you find these things out, instead of hearing it thru the rumor mills, ( just like finding out what sex is as a teen) there is guys that wont give up 1 hrs of the life they have at home to make years of improvements of the life they could have. If you dont go to the meetings and get involved you do not have any rights to complain. Its like voting in the elections those that dont vote have no right to complain about the out comes.
MP173 wrote:As a nonrailroader, let me ask you this: What one thing would you change about you job, if you could?ed
As a nonrailroader, let me ask you this:
What one thing would you change about you job, if you could?
ed
csx engineer
Having more time off when you know you will be off. Sure we can go 20 hours between calls - but if you're 2nd out, you can't really do anything in those hours. As it stands now, we have to have 7 consecutive starts in 7 conecutive days to get 24 hours undisturbed rest.
For example: Go to work 11pm monday for a quick short turn (take a train somewehre and get driven home). You get home at 9am Tuesday. But you don't get called again until 1am Wednesday. Unfortunately you didn't get a start on Tuesday - so you have to start the 7 starts in 7 days cycle OVER to get another shot at a rest day!
I took a job with regular rest days this week - but got bumped after one trip. That is why I actually had some time this week to play with this forum.
They have Rule G, but being tired is jsut as bad as bing drunk. Yet they seem to want us to be tired. It will take something big to change it - I just hope it doesn't happen near me!
zugmann wrote: Us young guys? Simple. We are working the extra board or pool jobs. We have no clue when we will have time off. And at the rate we have been working - we sure as heck ain't giving up the rare evening off to go to a union meeting. We either want to sleep or spend time with our families. I went through my calendar the other week... there was only one day where I could have went to a union meeting. But I just got back from a really long day and wanted to go home, get something to eat and go to bed. Selfish? You bet. Of course I don't leave close to work or the union meetings - I am about an hour away. Most of the people that hire out near me just try to stay invisible. WE had a younger conductor who was the trainman's representative for the BLET. Really nice guy, worked for us - too bad he ran off to go join the dark side. So it is not going to end anytime soon. The old guys with the best jobs and those in the yard will continue to rule. The rest of us have just accepted it. We'll take the engine with torn seats... sure beats having to answer for a whole bunch of crap and gets us out of the yard faster. I'm sure it would be different if we had dedicated people like RRken or Zapp as our union reps... but here, forget it. We just gave up. There's only so much you can care about. PS>> I also think there is a generational shift in how we see ourselves. I don't see myself as a railroader. I just work for a railroad. I do not see a train from my employer as "my" or "our" train. I just see it as a train from my employer. I just want to do my work, go home and get my paystub. Forget the pride - I feel NONE.zug. zapp wrote:I couldn't agree more!!!I too, am a post '85er, and a union officer. I can't discribe how fustraiting it is to see 20-40% voting results. Alot of railroads won't get off their butts to save their butts! You can make things change, it's just not easy, nor is it going to happen overnight. It's alot of dedication, time and most of tenacity!Do not let the minority rule the majority, get involved! Don't you young guy's sit around the crew room bitching about nothing changing and not try to change it. I used to hate to sit in a crew room and listen to that crap, because when the time came to actually do something, or I needed something, everybody was way to busy.Do you know all of the agreements yuo work under, has your representative given you copies of the agreement books. You would be surprised, and so would these new managers, as to what these books hold. Example, Our books had an agreements specifying the what the seats had to look like on the lead unit, so when UP told us we had to take a train with some piece of crap Mexican unit with tore up seats on the lead we pulled out the agreement books and they let us switch it out. Management and most of the guy's around here didn't know that, they didn't read the agreements!I should add, don't abuse it either. It goes both ways!
Us young guys? Simple. We are working the extra board or pool jobs. We have no clue when we will have time off. And at the rate we have been working - we sure as heck ain't giving up the rare evening off to go to a union meeting. We either want to sleep or spend time with our families. I went through my calendar the other week... there was only one day where I could have went to a union meeting. But I just got back from a really long day and wanted to go home, get something to eat and go to bed. Selfish? You bet. Of course I don't leave close to work or the union meetings - I am about an hour away.
Most of the people that hire out near me just try to stay invisible. WE had a younger conductor who was the trainman's representative for the BLET. Really nice guy, worked for us - too bad he ran off to go join the dark side.
So it is not going to end anytime soon. The old guys with the best jobs and those in the yard will continue to rule. The rest of us have just accepted it. We'll take the engine with torn seats... sure beats having to answer for a whole bunch of crap and gets us out of the yard faster.
I'm sure it would be different if we had dedicated people like RRken or Zapp as our union reps... but here, forget it. We just gave up. There's only so much you can care about.
PS>> I also think there is a generational shift in how we see ourselves. I don't see myself as a railroader. I just work for a railroad. I do not see a train from my employer as "my" or "our" train. I just see it as a train from my employer. I just want to do my work, go home and get my paystub. Forget the pride - I feel NONE.
zug.
zapp wrote:I couldn't agree more!!!I too, am a post '85er, and a union officer. I can't discribe how fustraiting it is to see 20-40% voting results. Alot of railroads won't get off their butts to save their butts! You can make things change, it's just not easy, nor is it going to happen overnight. It's alot of dedication, time and most of tenacity!Do not let the minority rule the majority, get involved! Don't you young guy's sit around the crew room bitching about nothing changing and not try to change it. I used to hate to sit in a crew room and listen to that crap, because when the time came to actually do something, or I needed something, everybody was way to busy.Do you know all of the agreements yuo work under, has your representative given you copies of the agreement books. You would be surprised, and so would these new managers, as to what these books hold. Example, Our books had an agreements specifying the what the seats had to look like on the lead unit, so when UP told us we had to take a train with some piece of crap Mexican unit with tore up seats on the lead we pulled out the agreement books and they let us switch it out. Management and most of the guy's around here didn't know that, they didn't read the agreements!I should add, don't abuse it either. It goes both ways!
I couldn't agree more!!!
I too, am a post '85er, and a union officer. I can't discribe how fustraiting it is to see 20-40% voting results. Alot of railroads won't get off their butts to save their butts! You can make things change, it's just not easy, nor is it going to happen overnight. It's alot of dedication, time and most of tenacity!
Do not let the minority rule the majority, get involved! Don't you young guy's sit around the crew room bitching about nothing changing and not try to change it. I used to hate to sit in a crew room and listen to that crap, because when the time came to actually do something, or I needed something, everybody was way to busy.
Do you know all of the agreements yuo work under, has your representative given you copies of the agreement books. You would be surprised, and so would these new managers, as to what these books hold. Example, Our books had an agreements specifying the what the seats had to look like on the lead unit, so when UP told us we had to take a train with some piece of crap Mexican unit with tore up seats on the lead we pulled out the agreement books and they let us switch it out. Management and most of the guy's around here didn't know that, they didn't read the agreements!
I should add, don't abuse it either. It goes both ways!
Uh...WOW...
I guess we are just two totally differnet personalities.
If the carrier tries to walk all over me or one of my brothers, I DO take it personally and I'll fight it. I won't be "invisible" and neither should you! You have to know when to pick your fights, who your opponent is, and what he's bringing to the table. There are times a simple phone call can clear this up, other times we'll take it to an investigation.
I can't describe the feeling when you win an investigation for one of your brothers, maybe extremely fulfilling.
I too, worked the extra board most of the time. We were making between 3500-4300 a half so we didn't have alot of time screwing around either. You get off, drive home, eat a bowl of cereal (doesn't matter what itme of day it was) go to bed and get woken by a phone call to come back. So we suggested having a website that the local set up posting the latest news that effected our region. It really helped. Evenb though you don't have alot of time at home, the carrier has no problem leaving you at your AFHT for ever. So we would go online there and catch up, while we waited for the call to come home.
RRKen wrote: Rail-Roadwarrior wrote: As I sat in at those meetings I thought to myself this is all a waste of time. None of this will matter tommorrow and nothing will change. It's hard to keep the faith when the carrier screws you over time after time and nothing ever gets done about it. As the Zuggman will attest, I get frustrated at this kind of talk. As a union officer, I aim to serve as best I can. I spend hours of my own time making sure that issues are addressed, the checks are in the mail, and information the members want is provided. I really do not like confrontation, it serves no purpose other than to alienate others. I spend a lot of time teaching younger men about the CNW schedule, and that we cannot afford to let the carrier erode it any further than it already has. The tide is turning in some locations today. No more can the politics of seniority dictate who can govern, and who cannot. One very large district has already seen the younger members out-number them, forcing the focus to change. No longer can the agreements we have seen since the merger be passed that will further gut the pay of new hires or worse. This is the exception, not the rule yet. (National elimination of the two tiered new hire rates has to be the biggest insult, and to be honest, needs to be the first to go away. And I would not be surprised if it was traded for some pre-85 items since pre-85 is becoming the minority.)
Rail-Roadwarrior wrote: As I sat in at those meetings I thought to myself this is all a waste of time. None of this will matter tommorrow and nothing will change. It's hard to keep the faith when the carrier screws you over time after time and nothing ever gets done about it.
As I sat in at those meetings I thought to myself this is all a waste of time. None of this will matter tommorrow and nothing will change. It's hard to keep the faith when the carrier screws you over time after time and nothing ever gets done about it.
As the Zuggman will attest, I get frustrated at this kind of talk. As a union officer, I aim to serve as best I can. I spend hours of my own time making sure that issues are addressed, the checks are in the mail, and information the members want is provided. I really do not like confrontation, it serves no purpose other than to alienate others. I spend a lot of time teaching younger men about the CNW schedule, and that we cannot afford to let the carrier erode it any further than it already has.
The tide is turning in some locations today. No more can the politics of seniority dictate who can govern, and who cannot. One very large district has already seen the younger members out-number them, forcing the focus to change. No longer can the agreements we have seen since the merger be passed that will further gut the pay of new hires or worse. This is the exception, not the rule yet. (National elimination of the two tiered new hire rates has to be the biggest insult, and to be honest, needs to be the first to go away. And I would not be surprised if it was traded for some pre-85 items since pre-85 is becoming the minority.)
Ken, if we had more guys like you things would be different. We had officers who just never showed a whole lot of interest. They were always marked off on union business but never seemed to get any claims paid or any other issues taken care of. And getting a phone call returned could take a while. I understand that being a local chairman or an officer can be stressfull with the constant phone calls and complaints on top of working your job, I never wanted any part of it. Some are better suited than others, more power to you for being able to hack it.
CShaveRR wrote: We do have a rule that prohibits employees from being in one of the transport vehicles when a backup move is being made. This is probably one of those rules that was written in blood.
We do have a rule that prohibits employees from being in one of the transport vehicles when a backup move is being made. This is probably one of those rules that was written in blood.
I heard a van backed into a pole rather forcefully, at least enough that an occupant claimed an injury. Having people in the van other than the driver was supposedly a contributing cause.
With some of our drivers when you get out you want to give them plenty of space. With one I would get behind some sturdy immovable object whenever possible. I don't know what will happen when one backs over a passenger.
Our drivers before backing up are supposed to get out and walk around the van to make sure the area behind the van is clear. That's because a van backed into a railroader.
Jeff
Well, safety is nice... but bottom line this is a job and we do want paid. It is hard to feed the family on safety measures. In my area, we have a lot of pre-85 UTU guys. These guys have attachments, slush funds, the works. So we, the 80%ers, with none of that get tired of listening to these old guys debate which contractor they should hire for their million dollar homes, or how they should really sell off that Infiniti as they barely drive it. All the while we look at our checks and go, WTF??? The days of the $100,000 dollar RRer are over.
But the newest guys have basically given up on the unions. It is sad... and as a pro-labor guy it pains me. Sure someone will ask - "did you go to the union meeting?" I can answer - nope. I was either working or on rest. And if you think I am going to give up my few hours of rest to drive an hour to a union meeting - you're nuts.
PS>> I'm also proud to be from the state that mandated toilets in road engines! (PA)
Rail-Roadwarrior wrote:This is true. When I finally did make it to a meeting, the only other young guys in attendance were furloughed. Seemed like no one wanted to talk about anything but their penalty claims and doing things they were told to do that they thought were not in the contract. 30 ticked off people trying to talk over each other at once. Everyone there talked about how the local chairman sucked and should be replaced. Seems like the youger ones at the meeting cared nothing about wanting to improve anything but their pay check. Anything within reason can be fixed, but like anything else it takes time and unions don't perform miracles.
This is true. When I finally did make it to a meeting, the only other young guys in attendance were furloughed. Seemed like no one wanted to talk about anything but their penalty claims and doing things they were told to do that they thought were not in the contract. 30 ticked off people trying to talk over each other at once. Everyone there talked about how the local chairman sucked and should be replaced. Seems like the youger ones at the meeting cared nothing about wanting to improve anything but their pay check. Anything within reason can be fixed, but like anything else it takes time and unions don't perform miracles.
zugmann wrote: Its this new brand of managers that only can look at the bottom line. And the railroads are hiring managers that never threw a swtich and never had to ride a van in their lives. And there may be only 3 RRers on here - but every single trip I take with dozens upon dozens of RRers is not complete until you get a deadheading horror story.
Its this new brand of managers that only can look at the bottom line. And the railroads are hiring managers that never threw a swtich and never had to ride a van in their lives.
And there may be only 3 RRers on here - but every single trip I take with dozens upon dozens of RRers is not complete until you get a deadheading horror story.
In general you may well be right about the Yuppie generation of "hands-off" managers, but an isolated management not knowing (or not caring) about small, cheap amenities to improve comfort and safety is not brand new.
Both THE MEN WHO LOVED TRAINS and MAIN LINES talk about such issues that go way back, sometimes before the implementation of diesel motive power. N&W for generations refused to put a potty in the head end of the loco. Apparently if a strong need for "number two" arose, the engineer or fireman was expected to do his business in a bag, like a poodle.
And a small but still significant part of the "wreck of the Penn Central" lay in the fact that ex-Pennsy's loco's did not have armrests, but the ex-NYCentral's did. It provoked great labor unrest when the motive power started getting mixed after the merger and the ex-Central's employees felt the loss of a valuable comfort item.
We're not talking wall-to-wall carpet and video games, but sanitation and uniform, and as-comfortable-as-possible working quarters, are everyone's right. N&W and later NS have generated Dollars of bad will and reputational damage by saving comparative dimes on equipping the cab. And a comfortable worker is a safer worker.
Any of the execs who had to go without an armchair in THEIR offices would be hollering bloody murder!
sanvtoman wrote: Anyway on this topic of underqualified drivers next time you see a van from an old folks home take a look at who is driving. I wouldnt let the family dog go with these people more less a loved one.
zugmann wrote: Sorry, I got bumped off a job... so I'm a little testy today. I really shouldn't post when I get mad. Heck I still consider myself a railfan. I craned my head when we passed some restored Eunits the othr day... As faar as safety... Can we fix it? I don't think so in the near future. Around here, the unions are pretty much run by old-timers taht can hold daylight yard jobs. Us younger pups are stuck working extra or on unassigned pools, and can't get to union meetings to set the agendas. So in return we become bitter at our own unions (which we are) and will not take part in them. I wouldn't be surprised if the railroads become non-union in the next 10-20 years. Of course, we'll have 1-man crews with roving utilities. It's going to happen.... just a question of when the locomotives are set up for it.
Sorry, I got bumped off a job... so I'm a little testy today. I really shouldn't post when I get mad. Heck I still consider myself a railfan. I craned my head when we passed some restored Eunits the othr day...
As faar as safety...
I wouldn't be surprised if the railroads become non-union in the next 10-20 years. Of course, we'll have 1-man crews with roving utilities. It's going to happen.... just a question of when the locomotives are set up for it.
zugmann wrote:And no, the us vs. them is because of railfans that have ZERO experience in the industry thinking they know more than we do. Sorry, I don't think it works that way. I'm sure as heck not going to know more about trucking than Ulrich... so is it fair to assume I may know a little more about the physical rail ops (maybe not the financial means) than he does?
And no, the us vs. them is because of railfans that have ZERO experience in the industry thinking they know more than we do. Sorry, I don't think it works that way. I'm sure as heck not going to know more about trucking than Ulrich... so is it fair to assume I may know a little more about the physical rail ops (maybe not the financial means) than he does?
So one guy who suddenly surfaced here after four years of membership pulled your chain. No need to call out the militia. And no need to indict all railfans, either.
I've been in some pretty heated discussions here. I've found that some people don't want to hear logic. Some want to make up facts to support their opinion. Others feed off blind support from their clique. And when someone finally calls them on their "game", they retreat -- resorting to calling you a troll and worse.
I hear ya on your concerns for the future. I remember hearing stories about the battle (my grandpa was a retired Cicero policeman who worked for the IC -- a "railroad bull") when they started bring in diesel locomotives. Two man-crews with MU locos were replacing steam crews on double- and triple-headers. That almost caused riots in the yard.
zugmann wrote: You think us ballast pounders have access to this data? We have experiences. I don't need facts and statistics. That is the difference between us and them I guess. As csxengineer said, it is different from outside the fence.
You think us ballast pounders have access to this data? We have experiences. I don't need facts and statistics. That is the difference between us and them I guess. As csxengineer said, it is different from outside the fence.
Thanks for removing the smarmy line you had originally in this post. I think none of us wants to start a war over this.
As someone from "outside the fence" I guess it amazes me that management is deaf to these safety complaints and that the union is totally impotent in forcing any changes, that's all.
You think us ballast pounders have access to this data? We have experiences. I don't need facts and statistics.
zugmann wrote: You don't want to believe us? that's fine - we'll just return to the normal foamer topics of paint and horns.
You don't want to believe us? that's fine - we'll just return to the normal foamer topics of paint and horns.
and insults, right?
No one said they don't believe you. They simply asked for some data or documentation regarding a claim made here in this discussion. That's a legitimate request. The other guy says he's a union official who's been fighting for change on this for years. He'd likely be the guy who'd have some sort of stats, yes?
If this place turns into an "Us vs. Them" war, it will be because of "foamer" comments like yours.
How'd you like it if someone said "Or we'll just return to the normal topics of railroaders complaining about how tough their jobs are."?
Now I will admit - we do have some really good drivers - the ones that are no way paid enough. They know where they are going (and several ways there), are friendly, and all around good guys.
Unfortunately, not all drivers are like that.
IIRC, it was a private company (and possibly one or more former employees), as opposed to one of the larger crew-transport companies. On my regular job, I'd rarely need to utilize these people. But I've heard tales...
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
CShaveRR wrote:It's a phenomenon of the last twenty years or so, Murph. Before that the railroad's own employees (clerks, messengers, trainmasters, whatever) would handle the ferrying of crews.
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