Does anyone know what happended to Rickey Gates of Conrailwho caused the big Wreck in Chase, Marylan

[rrnut282]

[soapbox] now that this has raged on for a while, I'll give my [2c]

CSX
1. In one of your posts you said something about "selling out your brothers". I don't know how you can hold him accountable for doing this (which has to do with safety) when my union brothers sold me down the river with a "B-scale" wage. For those of you not familiar with this term, it can be summarized as follows: at the negotiating table, I let the company screw the new guy, in pay and benefits and work rules, so I don't have to give up anything. So you can stand side-by side with someone doing the exact same job and only get paid 60% of what the other guy is being paid. That means I only have to do 60% of what they do, right?? Sounds like the makings of one big happy family [B)] So I don't quite follow how you come to the conclusion that Rick (who is bill?) made the job worse as far as comaradery and watching each other's back is concerned.
2. Whether intentional or not, it sounds like you are upset about a percieved loss of freedom to do something dangerouslike doing drugs on the job. If this the case, how does it affect you and why? Do you want to live out the lyrics of the Greatful Dead, "driving that train, high on cocain, Casey ...."


Ed
This crap and others like it will continue because we have lost the ability to feel shame. The "if it feels-good do-it" crap has empowered people to do things most would find morally reprehensible because "it didn't hurt anyone but me." I think the efforts to do away with personal responsibilty like "it's not my fault, it's society's fault", and "everybody's doing it" are cheap, cowardly cop-outs. Fast forward 20 years and look at the mess we're in. Until Hollyweird and the popular culture stops showing it in a positve light, it will continue to fester and grow steadily worse.

[Mookie]

And now we over-medicate our kids to turn them into pieces of furniture, so we don't have to deal with them just growing up and flexing their wings. So by the time they are adults, they are well into the drug scene. Back to burning down the house to get rid of termites!

[Anonymous]

Interesting series of posts. I'm all for Rule G and similar rules. They are unevenly applied, though. Speaking from personal experience, I have seen truck drivers who were obviously wired on speed (using amphetamines) whose driving behavior was just as erratic as some drunks I have watched on the highway. For the most part, they were guys who were trying to do their best to put as many hours in as they could and make a living. Yet they were just as dangerous on the road as someone blowing weed... maybe even more so. The difference between the two examples is the motive for the offense. It's much more acceptable to be seen using consciousness altering drugs to do a job better than to be seen as someone "trying to relax" on the job.

The "culture" point is also a good one. States across the country have raised their drinking ages to 21, but in the 70's, you could get a drink if you were 18. The reasoning was that "if you could die for your country, you ought to be able to have a drink for it, too." Unfortunately, the good intention resulted in higher teen aged fatalities on the road.

And, as an added point of contention, ABC News recently ran an article on prescription drug abuse. I don't know of any employer who is going to fire someone for taking prescription meds. I have to worry when those muscle relaxers, pain pills or anti depressants get used by someone in control of a 100,000 pound truck... or a 10,000 ton train... or a 120 ton aircraft.

On behalf of Ricky Gates, who has been kind enough to respond to a lot of posts, I want to add that he's paid his price for his mistakes and is moving on. He's still paying for his accident... at least he's taken responsibility for it, unlike most of the drunks and druggies I've put in jail. That takes a lot of inner strength to do... and I respect him for it.

Erik

[edblysard]

Would guess its dark territory.
Looking at the photos, and guessing his cat like reflexes were honed to a fine point by the dope, I bet the curve and siding and the other train just snuck up on him.
Sad part is, he took a someone else with him.

Still dont get why we let this crap go on, next time it might be one of us riding shotgun.
Ed

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

Before I head out I just wanted to let everyone know that the NTSB JUST found out the deadly UP wreck in New Mexico was drug related. People never learn[V]

Mindreader!

I saw that in our Omaha paper this morning - but it brings up something else, not just the fact that the engineer tested positive and killed both himself and a young conductor - grrr - but the fact that he sidewiped a grain train. His train was running empties - going opposite way. Would this possibly be speeding and swaying or maybe running a red board and knicking the end of the other train? Anyone know the details?

[Anonymous]

Before I head out I just wanted to let everyone know that the NTSB JUST found out the deadly UP wreck in New Mexico was drug related. People never learn[V]

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Doggy

I like the Idea of Rule G it needs to be on airplanes

Ummm yeah......It is and has been for a long time...way before Gunpow, like decades. FARs prescribe that no one may operate an aircraft having consumed alcohol or using any substance that could impair within 8 hours. Popping positive on a drug test during a physical, or being arrested for a drug or alcohol related offense can result in loss of license. Most airlines have more stringent company requirements that are very unforgiving. The militiary rules are twelve hours from preflight planning...not bottle to throttle....so if preflight is three hours long, back it up three more.

[Anonymous]

I like the Idea of Rule G it needs to be on airplanes

[csxengineer98]

rule G is a rail road rule that states...
no emplyee shall report for duty....or use while on duty..... be under then infuluance...possstion of... alcohal or any controlled substance that might inpair thier abilyt to work saftly....
this also aplys to any company provied fusilitys...(away from home hotel stays, rail road taxi service veicals)
also states that under the alcohal issue..no emplyee that is subject to call for duty must not consume any alcohol up to 4 hours befor being subject to call...... but when your working on an extra board..and have no real idea when you might get called...drinking is out unless its when you just get off duty..and enought time to sober up befor subject to being called agin...or on your off day....
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

What's Rule G?

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

I think Nora has put it best. It was a different time and things the we did and that were accepted as normal, aren't anymore. You can't measure yesterday's actions with today's yardstick. It doesn't fit.........We didn't use car seats, folks smoked in restaurants, kids carried BB guns or Oh My God....22's around and shot them down by the river.....without eye, ear, or common sense protection. Heck, there was a time that it was accepted that blacks and whites couldn't even share a restroom. That has changed, so has attitudes with regards to drugs and alcohol.

That being said, that's no justification to go around saying "yeah whatever..he's a rat, because he said everyone is doing it".....cause they were......so was everyone else....pilots, PDs, Firefighters, doctors, everyone......Eventually, just as in about every field that testing or a Rule G type rule is in effect had some incident which led to change.............Northwest had the famous drinking pilots and such... ...Tailhook,....which I didn't even go to...I was on deployment in another freaking half of the world, postponed my promotion as well as everyone else's while it was investigated....that's like me saying that LT Paula Coughlin changed the Navy and made it worse, can't have the boy's club anymore.......whatever.....I blamed her, so did everyone else that touched by it..but we got over it and pressed on.....whatever.....It was a different time and things were different and if it hadn't been that then it would have been something else....so get over over it......at least I can say Tailhook personally affected me.

I was trying to figure out how to say exactly what Mr Harmon just said. It was a different time.

I wonder how just about anyone would react when they were facing being sent up the river in part for something that literally everyone WAS doing. Do I go do my time silently? Or do I blow the whistle on the behavior that got me in trouble in the first place? I opine that many would be tooting loud and long.

It was a different time. I don't regret the time I spent there, and I'm glad for the lessons I learned.

[Anonymous]

OH SORRY KEVIN

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Doggy

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman



So he did go to his sociology Classes after all!

Kevin,
So who are talking about with this sociology Class if you are taliking about me I don't get what you talking about

DOGGY

If it's in red it's not Kevin ..it's his girlfriend.

[dharmon]

I think Nora has put it best. It was a different time and things the we did and that were accepted as normal, aren't anymore. You can't measure yesterday's actions with today's yardstick. It doesn't fit.........We didn't use car seats, folks smoked in restaurants, kids carried BB guns or Oh My God....22's around and shot them down by the river.....without eye, ear, or common sense protection. Heck, there was a time that it was accepted that blacks and whites couldn't even share a restroom. That has changed, so has attitudes with regards to drugs and alcohol.

That being said, that's no justification to go around saying "yeah whatever..he's a rat, because he said everyone is doing it".....cause they were......so was everyone else....pilots, PDs, Firefighters, doctors, everyone......Eventually, just as in about every field that testing or a Rule G type rule is in effect had some incident which led to change.............Northwest had the famous drinking pilots and such... ...Tailhook,....which I didn't even go to...I was on deployment in another freaking half of the world, postponed my promotion as well as everyone else's while it was investigated....that's like me saying that LT Paula Coughlin changed the Navy and made it worse, can't have the boy's club anymore.......whatever.....I blamed her, so did everyone else that touched by it..but we got over it and pressed on.....whatever.....It was a different time and things were different and if it hadn't been that then it would have been something else....so get over over it......at least I can say Tailhook personally affected me.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman



So he did go to his sociology Classes after all!

Kevin,
So who are talking about with this sociology Class if you are taliking about me I don't get what you talking about

DOGGY

[Anonymous]

So he did go to his sociology Classes after all!

[Anonymous]

[Nora]

Kevin,

When I was little I remember riding around in the "way back" of my parents' station wagon with no seat belt or anything. One of my earliest memories, in fact, is of sitting on my mom's lap, "driving" the car around the back roads where we lived. Neither of those things were any big deal back then even though they could have been extremely dangerous had there been an accident. Now it's rare to see that sort of thing and when it does happen it draws disapproving looks and comments. It's also illegal most places now, as far as I know.

I'd never, ever drive my kids around if they weren't in their car seats. But if I'd been born 30 years earlier, I probably would have done the same as my parents did with me and never thought twice about it. My parents weren't bad parents, but it's hard in hindsight to see how it didn't occur to them that what they were doing was potentially dangerous. They probably never thought about it because that was just what a lot of people did then.

It's not a perfect analogy, but my point is that unless you have lived through a certain time and situation, you can't totally understand what it was like.

I'm not going to comment on the specific situation/accident in question, because I'd never even heard about it until this thread came up a couple months ago. The two articles I've read about it since that time had contradictory details, so I'm just figuring I don't really know anything about it for sure except that there WAS an accident. My point is just that I can see how culture, society, and the railroads could have been very different at that time, and I don't think that automatically translates to "blaming society for their individual problems."

[Anonymous]

As csxenginner said last night this has been on the top 10 for alomost a month now and we need more debates like this not on the same subjects but on others instead of people wining about starts they got so I Think we need to have more good debates but they prorably wont match this one

DOGGY

[Rick Gates]

Kevin...I've tried to send something to you a couple of times now and it keeps getting returned and unsent. Not enough memory on server access to get it to you. As for the comments to others on times past. They are refering to the "social climate" of the times. This is not something you can understand while applying your ideals, morals, and values . This is not an excuse for ditching any responsibility/accountability, just a revisionist view of how things were in those days. Hindsight may be 20/20, however you may never understand all of the dynamics that came into play to let this horrible accident occur without first keeping an open mind. Anger, resentments, and hostility in any form defocus the ability to understand and learn from our mistakes. So, if you wish, email me something on your main ISP account or clean up a messenger and, I will send you something. [X-)]

[Mookie]

Well, Kevin you do bring up a good point - accountability. Sometimes I think it went the way of Common Sense, but we do still need to have accountability.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigedd

Kevin you have alot of opions about the 1970's for some one who never
lived them.You were still in pampers in the 80's.
Not making excuses it just the way it was.
Even management turned a blind eye to alot of things they knew that was going on.
You were not working for the railroads in the 70's 80's or the 90's.You
seen to think you know alot since you worked for the railway for the short time
that you have.The reason why we have drug testing is because of some of the
things that have happened.You should know by now
the railways to not changes things buy them self unless a problem comes up
or it can save them money.
Let me ask you this have you ever driven a car after a beer or two.I sure
about 98 percent of the who drink have driven a car after they had a few beers
same thing car or locomotive.

Never. Never in my Life Have i driven Any Equipment That Requires 100% attention and focus after having one or two beer. The minute i even have a sip of alcohol, I'm not Driving. I'll walk home, And i like the exercise, i'll go pick up my car tommorow.

I'm not lying, that is the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

I would neevr get in the car with someone who has drank AT ALL, And when i go to clubs with Mu girlfriend, we don't have anyhtign to drink, because it's a lot more fun watching the Drunk people around you.

And i will say this, It does not matter how the year ends, Be it in a 70, 80, 50, 60, 61,65,72,86, And any other Bingo number i didn't call, Does that Justify, because it is 1972, that You no longer have to practice self moderation, self control, self ability ot say no, Just because it is 1972?

Thats Blamming Society for your individual problems. Bat start.

Thats like telling me Oh the 90's Were Mcdonalds years, And we went to McDonalds BECAUSE everyone was doing it, And we all ordered burgers and got Fat, BUT hey, thats not our Fault, it's the fault of the ninties, man.

Yeah, must be the '00's now, I'll try blamming the '00's next time i get in trouble with alchol, If i ever do ofcourse.

[AntonioFP45]

N_Stephenson,

Thank you for the info! Seems like bueracracies continue to grow in this wonderful "lawsuit" world that, IMHO, "lack of accountability thinking" people have created.

[Mookie]

Mookie is pretty simple, but does enjoy the back and forth topics such as this. It makes you think a little and let's people express themselves. Kind of a roundtable discussion and usually very enlightening! Instead of just insulting each other, maybe we should try to nicely "challenge" each other to explain their words, Now there's a concept!

[Anonymous]

Basically, the names of the air brake tests are changing from Initial Terminal to Class 1, 1000 mile to class 1A, there's also a Class 2 and a Class 3. Conductors will have to fill out a piece of paper on the air brake test and document any cars that brakes don't operate and where they are in a train, etc. The air brake tests are also a little more extensive. This extra piece of paper sounds like more liability to me, and it doesn't suprise me in this blame-happy society. So like anything else in your line of work, make sure you cover your @$$. I'm still a newbie, so the veterans can probably give you a little more info on this.[C):-)]

[AntonioFP45]

N_Stephenson,

Forgive my ignorance please. What is this "Power Brake Law"?

[Anonymous]

Awww, it's so sweet to see we're all getting along again... sniff, sniff. I'm getting velcempt, talk amongst yourselves! Topic of discussion: what do you railroad guys think of the new Power Break Law going into effect April 1?[#dots]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

doddy,
your the one that opened this can of worms..and now you want to move on.... i dont think so.. this is a hot topic and it has inpsired alot of debate on both sides...which is exactly what this forum is about...and needed agin... this forum was starting to get dry...more people making issues over how many stars they got now..insted of a real heart felt argument or debate over an issue... you look at threads of the past that have keep going and going..with fire and pashion on both sides of the issues...such as one that happend on here some time back over rail road crossing safty/who is liable... when the fourms are "lets start the ever ending story" are posted...its time to have someone post an issue that can and will start a good debait...which is what you did.... even though my views on this have been met with alot of resistance becouse of my feelings about ricky gates... it has keep this topic in the top 10 for weeks... besides.....debait and freedom to do so was 1 of the frounding prinsables of this country... to be allowed to express your oppion on something..even if it wasnt what the status qoe was talking.... our founding fathers where a bunch of people that connstilly annoyed and pissed eachother off on issues.....which as a result started this great nation in which you and i can express how we feel.....
csx engineer

THAT"S FUR SURE IT WAS GETTING DRY AND YOU BRING UP A POINT ABOUT NEVER ENDING STORIES THIS ONE WILL NEVER END UNLESS THE WORLD DOES

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by csxengineer98

doggy or puppy or what ever your name is agin
i have the right to my oppion...you dont like what i have to say....then dont read my postings..simple as that...
the last time i looked the 1st ammendment was still in in the Constitution....but i guess it only applys anymore in here to the status quo...
and to make a one more point.....i am not alone in my feelings... a good friend of mine that is also an engineer for a major rail road feels the same way as i do...... and the 2 of us are not alone in our view of Billy " THE RAT" Gates...
rail roaders are divided on the issue..some say it was for the best...and some say he sold out to save his own ***....
bottom line.... yes he screwed up.....and i will give him this..he did claim responsibily for his actions.... but when it came down his *** going to jail for life... he rolled over on his brothers.....
this is how i feel...you dont like it...fine.... but you cant expect all the butt kissing of bill gates from people in this forum to be met without some resistance.....
csx engineer







CSXENGINEER You do have a right to say what you want also the point with the constution I was reading over it and the 1st amdnedment is still in it surprsly with BUSH WHO HIS SITS THEIR AND DOES NOTHING BUT GIVE HALLIBURTON CONTRACTS it's still in it and We're sorry if we made you fell bad by critizing you badly and I'm sorry I asked you to stop[B)][B)][B)][B)][B)][B)][B)][B)][B)][B)][B)][B)][B)][B)][B)][B)][B)][B)][B)][B)][B)][B)][B)]. Also my name IS DOGGY so you won't mess up for the future not PUPPY OR DOTTY

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