Does anyone know what happended to Rickey Gates of Conrailwho caused the big Wreck in Chase, Marylan

[kenneo]

Doggy, this topic in all of its various forms will never beover until substance abuse and substance use while subject to duty occur. Sorry, but that is the way it is for now.

However, with this thread you have done something for us all that I think we may not realize. Your "idle" curiosity has introduced us to Rick Gates, the real Rick of today. It's not just "the guy who", but who he really is now. Look back at his posts in this thread.

At 8 pages, perhaps we should start another thread in a month or two.

Thank you, again, Doggy, for the thread. And thank you, Rick, for speaking up.

[Anonymous]

FINALLY THIS CONVERTSY IS OVER SO CAN WE MOVE ON?

DOGGY

[Anonymous]

Has their been anymore major accidents caused by alochal?

DOGGY

[Anonymous]

i'd say more...

[csxengineer98]

run the same risk if not more by geting into your car and driving to work..
csx engineer

[Rick Gates]

If an Engineer uses any of these things prior to reporting for duty or while on duty, he/she may get "Nailed" in a coffin and may be doing the same for others. Being fired or getting time off is a reprieve and a chance to get help. Seriously.

[csxengineer98]

its hard to get back to work when you brake rule G.... but its not imposable... a fellow co worker of mine was nailed by a TM one night when he reported for duty... he had a few beers some hours befor reporting for duty..and thought he was ok to work...but the TM smelled booze on him..and called in a tester.... make a long story short... he was out of service for 30 days.... (its 9 months for an engineer, or a conductor that holds a card to opporate RCLs).....and has to go to AA meetings..and has random testing done all the time... now if he gets nailed agin...he is done... you get 1 sorta freebee...your not fired for good...you are given a chance to clean up your act... but if you should fail at that..or refuse to talk to a substance abuse consuler...your rail road job is gone...
the same thing apply for drug abuse too.... but if you pee a bad test...you are only subject to 30 days off pluse rehab...and that goes for engineers and trainman...
funny A....an engineer gets 9 months off for drinking..but if we toke up... and get nailed...only 30 days...ahahah..
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

IF you break Rule G are you fired for good?

[Anonymous]

As Ricky and others have alluded to abuse is prevalent in all colors of collar. I work in the transportation industry, more specifically the automotive repair end and abuse is rampant. The difference between a 3500 lb vehicle and a 10,000 or more ton train is huge but the end result can be the same. The automotive industry isn't regulated nearly as strict as the RR, problems are usually taken care of 'in house'. You rarely read about the customer that died or caused fatalities due to a mechanics level of toxicology. If you did, it was probably one- maybe two people and didn't affect a major industry. A train accident on the other hand will make news regardless of fatalities because the stakes are so much higher. The amount of abuse I see in my industry is alarming- if it were happening to the same degree in the RR I think there would be many more accidents. Point is, as was said, it is very widespread.

[edblysard]

Operation Red Block is for both the booze and other substance abuse.
Its one of the ways we, the T&E employees, can get help for our co-workers.
But it is a one time shot, show up wasted again, and if your caught, your history.
Getting back to work froma rule G violation is the single hardest thing to do.

Like csxengineer said, if the TM or other officer gets you first, its over.
Ed

[Anonymous]

I thought Operation Red Block was the place you called when you had a problem? I didn't know it was for alochal problems HUH?

[csxengineer98]

also this sight...
it has more information on opporation red block
http://www.utu.org/DEPTS/PR-DEPT/REDBLOCK.HTM
csx engineer

[csxengineer98]

doggy
OPPORATION RED BLOCK
that is the program set up to alllow crewman that are cought short after a night of drinking to be able to mark off without any penilty from the carrier... you are alowed 1 freebee....meaning...the first time you mark off red block... you will get a call from a red block captian... to discuse what happend... now if you use red block to mark of agin within a time period... you might be asked to go to AA counsaling.....
also under the red block gidelines.. if you show up for duty and you have been drinking... a crew man can pull you out of service under red block.. and someone has to give you a ride home... and you have to contact a counsuler withing 48 hours of the insident...now if a crewman donsnt pull you out...and a TM, RFE or any other boss gets to you first.....your *** is done... Rule G violation... and you have to talk to counsuler...pluse time off... and your subject to even more random alcohal testing for up to 3 years i think it is... in that 3 years of probation..if you come up with a positive breathaliser reading....your done....
http://www.redblock.com/
check this sight out for more information...
csx engineer

[Rick Gates]

Haven't heard about the UP hogger in the news. Just in these threads.

[Anonymous]

Did you hear about the UP enginner that got fired becuase he broke Rule G

DOGGY

[Anonymous]

Had 14 yrs engine svc before ConRail attrition, have spent 18yrs in industrial mech engr'g, would like to go back into engine service before I retire so as to bolster RR Ret and complete the circle of experiences, any realistic prospects in Indiana/Ohio?

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Doggy

Railroad need to have Alochal Programs about how to stop drinking before going on duty like how not to break Rule G

DOGGY

Ah, Doggy, they all do.

[Anonymous]

Railroad need to have Alochal Programs about how to stop drinking before going on duty like how not to break Rule G

DOGGY

[kenneo]

Rick

Your experience with the TM is similar to one that I had that resulted in a headon that destroyed 3 locomotives and came incredibly close to killing 4 friends and destroyed a complete trainload of ribbonrail. "Guilty" engineer, on very short rest, tried to lay off on call and mark 10 hours continuous. TM wouldn't let him.

So, up the hill they went, a road crew (locomotive - 2), train crew (caboose - 2) and helper (locomotive - 2) with 7 SD40/45's and 11,000 tons. Took 5 hours to get the first 50 miles, so they went in the hole at Oakridge for beans and cut back the helper there. Our crew, fully fueled at the beanery, headed up the hill at the astoundingly fast speed of 12 MPH Run 8. He remembers only the Salt Creek Trestle because the flange noise on the reverse curve woke him up until, for some reason, about 15 cars short of the Westward absolute signal at the West End of Wicopee when he came awake looking at a red "A" signal. He put the train into emergency and stopped about 6 cars and 3 units byond the Eastward Absolute Signal just as his friend came around the corner at track speed in expectation of going inside at Wicopee only to crash into the Westward train. The Eastward Ribbonrail Extra rode up over the Westwards lead unit, ripping open the fuel tank and everything just blew up.

Why those four men lived to tell the tale is byond any to explain.

Booze and drugs played no part in this disaster, but an attitude of running the train no matter what, the very hipnotic effect of high hoursepower engines, slow speeds, the "3AM" syndrom and full tummies did in the very professional attitude of two very good enginemen. Three restrictive signals run by because the crew was uncounscious. The entire ribbonrail train destroyed - engines, threaders, stringers - everything including the rail, destroyed. Two of the three road locomotives of the Westward Extra destroyed - one incinerated and the other, later, declared a total. Since the helper was still shoving, it pushed a lot of cars into heaps.

Ed is correct in that one of the problems is the hireing of those who are not qualified or "dangerous" due to substance abuse. Rick is correct in that substance abuse is still a problem. And there is an attitude problem in both management and labor about working until you drop, but not stopping even then.

[Rick Gates]

I remember one incident some years before this accident when I was on call but didn't expect to get out to work any too soon. I had a friend over the house that evening and I drank freely. I was unexpectedly called to work a road job and tried to mark off Rule G. The crew dispatcher told me I couldn't do that and after some debate I agreed to throw it in the Trainmaster's lap. I told him I would go to work and present myself drunk in front of the trainmaster and he would still have to call someone to take my place. I got to work (expecting to be sent home) grabbed a coffee and proceeded to the Trainmaster's office. He was all ready expecting me with my crew in attendence in his office. He asked me how I was and I told him I was tired and drunk. He told me I looked OK to him and get on the train. He said my crew would look out for me. I told him I was the only one on the crew that knew how to run the train and, again he told me they would look out for me. They did.....every time I stopped...they stayed asleep. I can't believe that anything like that could go on now-a-days. And I believe this is an extreme example of how it use to be. No matter what denial I may have been in about my problem, in those days, filling the job with a body was more important the your condition. We did throw a drunk on the caboose or rear unit to sleep it off and "looked out" for him or her. Also, the same Trainmaster did try to catch me drinking on the job after that on several occasions, but was unsuccessful. In part, because I was on to him and, because my crew was "looking out for me." I was also knowledgable enough about the rules, timetable, and laws to intimidate many of my bosses and crew. As I said, I can't believe those things could still be going on. I do know however; from working as a counselor in the treatment centers, that I would see about 2 RR employees per month come before me. That is in one of many treatment centers. Also, these were the ones who were caught and forced to come to treatment to save their jobs. That indicates that there are still many more individuals with a problem that don't get caught or even know they have a problem. I agree with Ed that the RR has no greater or lesser a problem than any other profession. In, fact it (in my opinion) is probably less statistically so than others. Unlike the other professions though, railroading is potentially more dangerous to more people than most others. An Employee Assistance Program was available to me. I didn't trust them. One can however, "rat out" a co-worker with a chronic problem to an EAP with anonymity to themselves and the other person. Sounds harsh, but is a safe alternative. Also, help can be found through these EAP's to cope with friends, family, etc. (non-RR), that may have an abuse problem through interventions with punitive consequences and counseling. The phrase "safety is no accident" works best if we all police ourselves and each other rather than ignore or cover up the problems. I would be VERY grateful now if someone had turned me in before I harmed so many!

[Anonymous]

kenno You do bring up a point about about full blown acholaism

DOGGY

[edblysard]

Hi Kathi,
Well, no duty, no anywhere as bad as it used to be, but as a guess, if someone showed up drunk or stoned, most crews would put him in the rear locomotive cab, tell him to stay put, and cover for him.
The "We take care of our own" mindset is still there.

A lot of this has to do with railroad hireing practices, where you have to have a relative on the inside to get hired.
The pre employement check is not very good, so we keep hireing the same sort of people, or their brother...
And to that the culture difference, the "us" against "them" attitude, and it easy to see where some one can slip between the cracks.

I have only had one experience in eight years with a crew member showing up to work under the influence, and I offered him the choice of playing sick and calling a relief, or he could explain why he was wasted to the trainmaster.
He called a relief.

Off duty, I really feel that railroaders dont drink or use drugs anymore than most blue collar occupations.
Would guess that you would find the same percent of abusers among iron workers or construction workers.
But the random testing has made a impact, at least according to the old heads I work with.

Still, I think it is up to us, the T&E employees, to police ourselves.
As long as we ignore the problem, or expect management to correct it, it will never completly go away.

Ed

[kenneo]

Wow, Ed. I do understand. My father-in-law was a full blown alcoholic. Would drive down the freeway the wrong way in a VW Beatle. Died a natural death in his 70's. My wife learned to drive by taking him home from the bars she found him in when she was still in Jr. High. Her mother was a drug adict and alcoholic. When Sue was back east to force her mother to come live with us (by court order - either us or a locked facility, like a prison), she sneaked out of her house and slipped down to the grocery store, bought a fifth of gin and a mixer, and started slugging them down, left hand, right hand, left hand, right hand ---- and then proceeded to drive into a light pole in the store parking lot. Cops brought her home in the squad car, her car was towed home. Cops were stunned to find my wife there, frantically looking for her. She had just got off the phone to 911 trying to find her. The cops had brought her home so many times in such condition --------.

Kathy -- it is better, and once it starts, most folks can't stop their problem. My opinion, is that the real culprit here is the way the railroads (and the unions, too) run the pool jobs. I won't go into that here - it has been discussed passed the "puke" stage. And it has to be changed for a varity of reasons. There needs to be a zero tolerance not only for use on duty, under the influance, but use at all. When I was active in the operating department, I would not drink AT ALL - PERIOD - and if I was going to be off for two or more weeks, the limit was .08 BAC not more than twice per week and 5 days free prior to reporting.

Part of the problem is that it can be hid so well. Do we do a blood test when the crew reports for duty each time they report?

My reaction to what I had heard when I called my contact as related in an earlier post was just mind blowing. And now I read that it was true. I just can't believe it. The hoghead being - perhaps - DUI, given a great enough "I", well. But if he were sober? And the Conductor?!?!?? What was he doing??? I would have been unglued a long time prior, and I don't come unglued very easily. The locomotive cab may well have needed repairs on its interior!

I could go on and on and on. I have no tolerance for such stupidity. I have buried good friends due to DUI. WHAT PART OF "NO" DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND

And Ricky, you understand, you didn't stay in denial (if you ever were there), and you did something about it. BRAVO! You understand all of "no". You are not included in the above. I just want you to know that. You are NOT on my list.

And to the rest -- sorry I got so worked up, here. But this subject is very personal.

[Anonymous]

I Think Supervisors have a blind eye to safty

[Kathi Kube]

So Ed (and any other rail workers who've been in the industry throughout several decades),

How prevalent is drinking and drug use these days—not only while on duty, but during off times, as well? (Since that clearly does affect a person's overall decision-making skills.) From what I hear, it's better than it was, but still fairly common.

And if so, what more can be done to change it? Or are supervisors still turning a blind eye to it the way I hear they do with some unsafe—but vastly more efficient—work practices?

Thankfully, I've never worked in an occupation where people's lives were at risk, or where drug or alcohol use were common—although I've seen plenty of drinking at holiday parties with other employers and at railroading trade shows.

What's the scoop?

Kathi

[edblysard]

You know,
Until we, the T&E employees, decide we wont put up with this...

Uphill, notch 8 thru 3 restrictives?
One stoned and both of them snoring?

Like Rick said, it becomes a mind set, you rationalize your bad behaviour, and find a way to justify doing something you know, absolutly know, is dangerous.

My sister is a alcoholic.
She is also a nurse, ER, OR, Trauma, and a flight nurse with her citys life flight service, along with a Lt. in her Civil Air Patrol.
And this well educated, smart lady will look you straight in the face, and tell you she can drive her car just as well drunk as sober.
Shes a nurse, she know exactly what alcohol does to the human body, and what excess alcohol does.
But stop or moderate her drinking?
Not a ice cubes chance in hell.
She has convinced herself she has no problem, (other that the three destroyed cars and loss of her insurance).

And in our industry, every time we turn a blind eye to our co workers showing up, or getting wasted while at work, we are only a eye blink, or three restrictives away from killing ourselves or one of our friends.

Ed

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Would guess its dark territory.
Looking at the photos, and guessing his cat like reflexes were honed to a fine point by the dope, I bet the curve and siding and the other train just snuck up on him.
Sad part is, he took a someone else with him.

Still dont get why we let this crap go on, next time it might be one of us riding shotgun.
Ed

The route is lit. The story I get is the empty auto racks were going up hill in run 8 and passed at least three restricting signals prior to the collision without any power adjustments or brake applications. They drove into the grain train "peddle to the metal".

I vivedly remember a confrontation in the crew callers with several trainment/enginmen. This was just after the Chase, MD, accident. They considered all of the testing and reporting an invasion of privacy. They were really spouting off. I made (at that time) no friends with my response to them - If they wanted to die because of their fellow workers drug - alcohol use, that was their business. I was intent on living and staying healthy, and if any one of them or any one else was using, I was not going to permit their working.

I still feel that way. Includes tobacco use on the job. In the late 1960's, in Norway, smoking while operating a motor vehicle (train, plane, boat or car) carried the same penality as DUI.

[Rick Gates]

It's me again.......First, a little morbid humor to lighten things a bit. I have never been to New Mexico and , I have an alibi. The sick part of that really implies that once we become an alcoholic/addict we always will be. You can't change a pickle back into a cucumber. No matter what the times are though, we will always invoke our rights when confronted. Personally, and from hindsight, I encourage anyone to go thank any officer, fireman, boss, family member, whomever, has tried to prevent guys like me from doing harm. When in the throws of my addiction, I would invoke my rights and side with my confederates against these very people who were trying to protect me from myself and others. When I do go into detail about the events leading to the Chase accident, I try to drill home to others, that the worst decisions I made which lead to the accident, were made when I first arrived for duty. I was as sober as could be then. 49 hrs. and 15 mins. off duty . Approx. 10 hours of sleep just prior to reporting. My subconcious, unconcious, subliminal thinking (or whatever you prefer to call it) influenced making poor decisions while inspecting and testing equipment, etc. The influence basically went.....(not concious thought) If I take the time to set this right, I'll be cutting into "my" drinking time later. Now I did confront the Trainmaster about some of these things with the thinking that I was covering my ***..ets. I also thought, I only have light engines and I'm taking them to a shop where I will make sure these problems are addressed. After all I am a professional. Had I simply taken the time to untape the cab signal whistle, or turn the engines, The whistle would probably have alerted me (even if in a sound sleep) almost a mile prior to the accident scene. Or with just enough distance to stop clear. My point being, anyone with a drug/alcohol problem is not likely to know it or admit it. And, once into problem usage, our thinking even when not using is adversely affected. The problem influences our every thought and motive at a level not known or obvious. So, again, in hindsight, I encourage everyone to help your brother or sister on the job. Confont them and protect them and others even if it seems harsh. And thank all of you who do confront guys like me! It makes us all safer and able to go home again.

[Anonymous]

Drugs is till a problem in all industries especially baseball also the UP cra***he Enginner on one of them had drugs in his system HE BROKE RULE G

DOGGY

[Mookie]

You know - I have to pop off here! I have read before in this forum about the later hires making less because of the union decisions (B-scale wage) -

I won't take sides on that particular one, but being female - I had no union to stick that one to me. Just being a female was the problem. My boss makes 3x's as much as I do and takes my ideas to the senior staff meeting. Women have always been way underpaid for doing the same job as their male counterpart. Not looking for sympathy - altho, will take any pity parties I can get, just expressing frustration!