Big Beast wrote: I was in 3 Rocket clubs in my youth with lots of people with various ages. Rarely did I run into a *** as I like to call them. One did have it's own building they leased for projects and such. However to bring first question to a fine point. should it matter if a club has it's own building? Look at people who love fishing. Could that be considerd a hobby? I would think so Although some consider it a sport.. I have been doing that for yrs and very very rarely do I run into any pricks. 90% of the time if you ask are they biting you will get a prompt answer. Most times they will even tell you what bait is working and what is not. I certainly hope it is not me. I have walked into many clubs will say Hi only maybe 70% of the time I will get a hello. The reason I bring this up is with rising gas prices. Some people who wish to join a club have extremely limited choices on a club to join. People in this hobby really need to lighten up. With prices for this hobby going through the roof. they are only rushing along a dying breed.
I was in 3 Rocket clubs in my youth with lots of people with various ages. Rarely did I run into a *** as I like to call them. One did have it's own building they leased for projects and such. However to bring first question to a fine point. should it matter if a club has it's own building?
Look at people who love fishing. Could that be considerd a hobby? I would think so Although some consider it a sport.. I have been doing that for yrs and very very rarely do I run into any pricks. 90% of the time if you ask are they biting you will get a prompt answer. Most times they will even tell you what bait is working and what is not.
I certainly hope it is not me. I have walked into many clubs will say Hi only maybe 70% of the time I will get a hello. The reason I bring this up is with rising gas prices. Some people who wish to join a club have extremely limited choices on a club to join. People in this hobby really need to lighten up. With prices for this hobby going through the roof. they are only rushing along a dying breed.
Well,I also race 1/24th and 1/32nd slot cars..I will tell you very little about making your car go faster..I love to fish..Think I will tell you exactly where my "honey hole" is? Guess again.I might send you to one of my old fishin' hole but,not where I am currently catching fish.
Think charter boat captains will tell you where the fish are baiting? Same for bass and walleye fishermen.No way.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
tracklayer said,"He said that from what he could gather everyone felt that I considered myself to be a "pretty boy", and that the word was that I was more into looking good in my seemingly unlimited wardrobe of cowboy clothes than I was shooting. That was the end of it for me, and I haven't been back since. I even sold"
Uhhhh, tracklayer, Uhhh I been meanin to talk to you about that new conductor outfit you been wearin lately ,Uhhh
Midnight Railroader wrote: PBoilermaker wrote: To be blunt, I have noticed more socially inept people in this hobby than in others. Let's face it, a lot of "weird" people like trains. Considering this demographic, your treatment isn't too surprising. That doesn't excuse the behavior, it is just par for the course I guess.-MikeMaybe they/we are attracted to this hobby precisely because--unlike, say, bowling--it does not require interaction with others.
PBoilermaker wrote: To be blunt, I have noticed more socially inept people in this hobby than in others. Let's face it, a lot of "weird" people like trains. Considering this demographic, your treatment isn't too surprising. That doesn't excuse the behavior, it is just par for the course I guess.-Mike
To be blunt, I have noticed more socially inept people in this hobby than in others. Let's face it, a lot of "weird" people like trains. Considering this demographic, your treatment isn't too surprising. That doesn't excuse the behavior, it is just par for the course I guess.
-Mike
I THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING THERE...
PBoiler, thanks for saying that! When ever or where ever I go railfanning, NO ONE talks! Its pretty sad, I usually see atleast 2 or 3 railfans a day, and rarely do they even say hi. And yes, a lot of "wierd" people like trains, seems like a lot of people who have some disability love them. It kind of bothers me how our hobby attracts introverts more than anything. I have a few good friends (all older, and most work on the railroad) that I go to slide shows with, and they seem like the only people who talk. Anyone Ive met when railfanning, ive came up to them, not once has someone introduced themselves to me. Im 15 by the way, so I can feel these 17 year olds pain also. Oh well I guess, right?
Alec
Hmm. I'll toss another one in. I also do a bit of electronics and radio hobbying. The people in the main short-wave radio store here are about as much help as gravestones at a wedding. I have to ask for service; and never mind advice - they point to a book on the wall. Even after I bought a $600 short-wave receiver and a few magazines from them.
Funny thing, they are all in my age group. So it can't be that.
I dont know anything about the pretty boy stuff. But I have seen cases where truckers have paid 4000 dollars for Chrome and later discovered over the phone long distance because thier kid is sick and need medicine for 300 dollars. I dont know.
I have seen one or two people in Living History (Civil war) where alot of money is spent on the uniform and equiptment. To the public that Rifleman wearing a expensive outfit looks just like another one who may be wearing home spun at 100 yards during a battle demonstration. But to the others inside the Infantry company who are in close proximity to the one who is spending alot of money.. well.. there probably is some tension.
I have stood in line of battle wearing second hand materials and holding a borrowed rifle. I did not look any different than the one next to me who has a weapon that is orginal and is maintained very well and wearing hundreds of dollars in costume for a specific Officer or soldier that actually existed in history.
Trains is expensive too. But it is a activity where you can do it by yourself or you can share a little bit with others who are of the same feather as they say. All are welcome, regardless if they make minimum wage part time or enjoy a multi million income from bank interest. Let's just focus on running trains and teach each other things that are useful.
Tracklayer wrote: ...He said that from what he could gather everyone felt that I considered myself to be a "pretty boy", and that the word was that I was more into looking good in my seemingly unlimited wardrobe of cowboy clothes than I was shooting...Tracklayer
...He said that from what he could gather everyone felt that I considered myself to be a "pretty boy", and that the word was that I was more into looking good in my seemingly unlimited wardrobe of cowboy clothes than I was shooting...
Tracklayer
Aaah, the politics of envy. Still, you have to give the guy credit for spilling the beans honestly...ya gotta give him that much.
I'll try a mini-dissertation here. Over time, any organization adopts a flavour, for want of a better word, and that flavour is a confluence of attitudes, charisma in one or two people (often unofficial elders or leaders, infleuntial people, in the group), limitations caused by necessity, and so on. Over time, the group that remains, that can stick it out and adapt, will have a mini-culture that they come to view as theirs to protect. They are gate keepers.
When a new person enters the setting, and unknown if you will, that person can be a real threat to a group that has nutured and sustained a protectionist form, or a proprietary form, of modeling and operations. If that group, severally, comprises weak characters or personalities, those whose indentity (ego) is largely tied to what they have come to accept and view as "successful and masterful accomplishment" in their hobby, they will feel threatened by an interloper. They will actively resist when someone new begins to impose, or to suggest, a change in "ways of doing what they do the way they do it, and why they do it."
Simply, the atmosphere or culture of the organization is the result of hundreds of accepted changes by those who are actually present the first time you meet them...with the odd variation, of course. You may simply not be very welcome if the group has a practise of being rigid and have learned, collectively, to keep a straight arm between themselves and would-be newbies to the group. So, if you want into such a group, then you must begin a lengthy negotiation with them, a dance of sorts, and get them to accept you. Then, if you still feel a distinctive need to change the group when you have their acceptance, you can begin to get their support as a leader and get them working with/for you.
It won't happen in the first year.
Big Beast wrote:I do not know if it is the area I live in or just common in this type of hobby. I have noticed sometimes when walking into clubs you get this sense of being ignored. Me and a few freinds have noticed this more often in this hobby then any other. Why?
Don't feel rained on... I got into Cowboy Action Shooting about three years ago, and at first it was a lot of fun. Then one day I noticed that everyone had all of a sudden turned real cold toward me. At first I didn't let on or say anything, then one day I wasn't in the best of moods and came out and asked one of the other members what was going on. He said that from what he could gather everyone felt that I considered myself to be a "pretty boy", and that the word was that I was more into looking good in my seemingly unlimited wardrobe of cowboy clothes than I was shooting. That was the end of it for me, and I haven't been back since. I even sold all of my cowboy guns, and used the money to buy train items with - which is what I should have done in the first place...
Know what? I have to agree with Da Beast here. Heaven knows that most model railroaders I know are perfectly sociable, pleasant folks, but I must say that I run into far more... let's say surly... people in this hobby than in any other I engage in (and among these I include competitive sports such as soccer and running)).
A few years ago, I might have said that stamp collecting (another of my pastimes) was populated with just as many grouches as our hobby, but I have seen a remarkable change over the last ten years or so in the way philatelists of all ages deal with one another and, most importantly, with newbies and young people. My kids have come to enjoy stamp collecting, a hobby that is even harder for teens to relate to than model railroading, largely because of the help and encouragement they've received from experienced collectors at stamp shows.
Juan
The last trains show I went to in Pine Bluff was packed wall to wall with people. Hardly a dying breed. Once in a while a customer will be asking questions like is this Atlas track any good while trying to get into the hobby. I usually keep my opinonated big mouth shut and let the store keep deal with the customer. Both stores I go to understand the customer's needs and they do a good job taking care of that new customer.
But the experience of a customer getting into model railroading as a new hobby with all the possibilities is a very wonderful day in any hobby shop.
Will that person be in the hobby a year from now? Depends on their ability to learn and work with good quality products while avoiding the junk. There are alot of other things they can do like buy an expensive boat and fishing gear and go to the lake.
Big Beast,The difference in having a building or not is that there are many informal social clubs or groups that meet in people's houses, at restaurants, etc. that are tailored to be a truly social organization. These sorts attract the more sociable amongst us, as who would want to invite unsociable people into your own living room for coffee, tea, or beer?
If a club has a building, they have to be at least a little more formal because they have to pay the rent (or whatever). A more formal club can have those that are not as sociable as members, as the other folks will put up with them so as to pay the rent (sad, but true). That's what I meant about there being a difference.
As for fishing, you also have fisherman who would tell you that the fishing's terrible just to make sure you didn't "take" one of their potential fish.
When I asked if it was you, it was to point out that there's often more than one side to these things. It's like the ballplayer that signs 100 autographs until his hand is numb, but when he leaves, the 101st fan will be ticked, and call a sports talk station and lambaste the player for ruining his kid's life because he didn't sign his ball.
My point is that there are many "disappointed with Club X's behavior" threads and posts on the internet, but it's not always the club that displayed bad behavior.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
BRAKIE wrote: Bruce,I think that its a 2 way street.The new members (or prospects) should start by introducing their selves to other club members and vice versa.In times past I am sure there are those that thought I was stand offish at first when I join a club.However,in MY case I was observing the other members for their reactions to me as a new member...Many broke the ice by speaking first.Once I broke my ice I found the group was open and friendly to all.I will speak to visitors at the club and wait and see their response will be.Some mumble a reply while others start asking questions..Then there are the very few that doesn't acknowledge my "Hello" or "Hello and Welcome!".
Bruce,I think that its a 2 way street.The new members (or prospects) should start by introducing their selves to other club members and vice versa.In times past I am sure there are those that thought I was stand offish at first when I join a club.However,in MY case I was observing the other members for their reactions to me as a new member...Many broke the ice by speaking first.Once I broke my ice I found the group was open and friendly to all.
I will speak to visitors at the club and wait and see their response will be.Some mumble a reply while others start asking questions..Then there are the very few that doesn't acknowledge my "Hello" or "Hello and Welcome!".
Larry,
I agree that it's a two way street - but the ice needs to be first broken. I think it's got to be up the club members to make the first move to break the ice, and then it's up to the new person to reciprocate or do whatever he/she is going to do. Hopefully it will be reciprocated and the new person will feel welcome.
Now there will be new people who will take it upon themselves to make that first move, and that's great. But I think clubs really shouldn't depend on that.
When I first moved into my neighborhood, I was surrounded by well established owners who have lived there for many years. Not one ever welcomed us. After a time we found most of them not to be bad neighbors, but as we bought the first house to be sold there in a number of years, they were not used to dealing with new people. One of my sourest early encounters occurred when I was (unknowingly) dumping leaves just across a property line and was confronted by a cantankerous old neighbor I had yet to ever meet. After his rant, I apologized and then openly wondered why he would greet a new neighbor in that fashion. He complained that since I never bothered to introduce myself that I was the one being unfriendly.
Sometimes I see this same sort of attitude played out in clubs, schools, and churches.
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
BRAKIE wrote: No offense meant here but,maybe its your attitude? The way you breeze into a hobby shop,club or NMRA can turn friendly folks off..Maybe you show a unfriendly attitude by being stand offish by not speaking to anybody..I have seen guys I would not give the time of day to because of their haughty looking attitude because of the smirk on their face.Its really a 2 way street.On the other hand I have visited clubs where some of the members was rather stand offish while others was friendly.Another thing..Local NMRA meets usually means there are guys there that has known each other for years..So,what might seem like a "cliquish atitude" is no more then long standing friendships.
I think in the case of new club members (or prospects), the burden of initiating a friendly attitude should fall squarely on the existing club members. After a time, I think the new guys will have to make up their minds if they intend to stay and what sort of attitude they will have going forward. Hopefully it will be positive and an asset to the club.
In a case of a LHS (or any retail environment), it's a whole different story. All customers HAVE to be treated well regardless of whatever vibe they put off - unless they intend to rob the store or something...
on30francisco wrote:I've had many experiences of being ignored or given the attitude by other modelers in clubs, NMRA meetings (during my days of membership), LHSs, or train shows. I have found many of these places very cliquish and unfriendly toward newcomers and others whose modeling interests are different than the majority. This is a shame because it discourages potential modelers and showcases our hobby in a very negative light to the general public. Despite my negative experiences, I have found the Large Scale community to be much more laid back, less cliquish, open-minded, and diverse when it comes to modelers and modeling. Although I love this hobby, I try to avoid going to most hobby shops or modeling events. I get most of my supplies either online or at arts and crafts stores. I must say that the online hobby shops and suppliers, in contrast to the many LHSs I've been to, treat me as if I'm their only customer.
No offense meant here but,maybe its your attitude? The way you breeze into a hobby shop,club or NMRA can turn friendly folks off..Maybe you show a unfriendly attitude by being stand offish by not speaking to anybody..I have seen guys I would not give the time of day to because of their haughty looking attitude because of the smirk on their face.Its really a 2 way street.On the other hand I have visited clubs where some of the members was rather stand offish while others was friendly.Another thing..Local NMRA meets usually means there are guys there that has known each other for years..So,what might seem like a "cliquish atitude" is no more then long standing friendships.
Now I buy 99% of my stuff on line and I feel I am no more then a cold computer page to the dealers I been dealing with for the last 6 years unlike some of the friendly hobby shops I been in.
pastorbob wrote: myred02 wrote: bb4884 wrote:I'm 17 and I feel cast-out wherever I go.I feel your pain. I'm 17 and I feel like I don't get taken seriously enough. For instance, my friend and I (he also happens to be 17, at least for another month...) have been out railfanning on many occasions when the local police shows up and asks us what we're doing. Being on public property, we would honestly say "We're trainwatching!" Usually, the officer looks at us with disbelief and then tells us to "mind ourselves". With that, he usually takes his leave.I know he's just doing his job, though. I mean, what would you think if you saw a couple of teenagers hanging around the tracks? -Brandon Actually, that happens to people of all ages. I am 70, a church pastor, and have been an active modeler since my teen years. But I have been approached by police at various times and various places and asked "what I am doing". The funniest time was a couple of years ago when I was parked at a crossing on the ATSF Transcon mainline, 1/2 mile from my church watching trains, and the sheriff patrol stopped to check on me. One came over and started giving me a bad time, suddenly the second officer came running over and told the first to leave me alone, I was his pastor. We had a good laugh, I told the story the next Sunday and all was well. Just remember, they are doing their job and if so, they will question anyone of any age. Enjoy the hobby, I have.Bob
myred02 wrote: bb4884 wrote:I'm 17 and I feel cast-out wherever I go.I feel your pain. I'm 17 and I feel like I don't get taken seriously enough. For instance, my friend and I (he also happens to be 17, at least for another month...) have been out railfanning on many occasions when the local police shows up and asks us what we're doing. Being on public property, we would honestly say "We're trainwatching!" Usually, the officer looks at us with disbelief and then tells us to "mind ourselves". With that, he usually takes his leave.I know he's just doing his job, though. I mean, what would you think if you saw a couple of teenagers hanging around the tracks? -Brandon
bb4884 wrote:I'm 17 and I feel cast-out wherever I go.
I feel your pain. I'm 17 and I feel like I don't get taken seriously enough. For instance, my friend and I (he also happens to be 17, at least for another month...) have been out railfanning on many occasions when the local police shows up and asks us what we're doing. Being on public property, we would honestly say "We're trainwatching!" Usually, the officer looks at us with disbelief and then tells us to "mind ourselves". With that, he usually takes his leave.
I know he's just doing his job, though. I mean, what would you think if you saw a couple of teenagers hanging around the tracks?
-Brandon
Actually, that happens to people of all ages. I am 70, a church pastor, and have been an active modeler since my teen years. But I have been approached by police at various times and various places and asked "what I am doing". The funniest time was a couple of years ago when I was parked at a crossing on the ATSF Transcon mainline, 1/2 mile from my church watching trains, and the sheriff patrol stopped to check on me. One came over and started giving me a bad time, suddenly the second officer came running over and told the first to leave me alone, I was his pastor. We had a good laugh, I told the story the next Sunday and all was well.
Just remember, they are doing their job and if so, they will question anyone of any age. Enjoy the hobby, I have.
Bob
Back in the fall of last year I was parked at the T&OC station and was reading the latest issue of Railfan between train while sipping on a Diet Pepsi when a Police Officer drove by..I heard him tell his dispatcher on my scanner that "The car in question is just that train guy that comes here a lot." He wave as he drove by.
Paul3 wrote: For example, if I say that a certain siding should or shouldn't be on the plan, I get a lot of resistance. Meanwhile, if someone who is a retiree (or close to it) says the same thing I do, suddenly it's given real consideration.Sometimes I feel like Rodney Dangerfield. Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
For example, if I say that a certain siding should or shouldn't be on the plan, I get a lot of resistance. Meanwhile, if someone who is a retiree (or close to it) says the same thing I do, suddenly it's given real consideration.
Sometimes I feel like Rodney Dangerfield.
I know what you mean on that one. I guess it's that old saying "With age comes wisdom." (Not always)
Big Beast,A question or two for you: How many other types of hobbies have club buildings, and what kind of non-RR clubs have you been to? Most other clubs are 1st and foremorst a social club that does other things (organizations like the Jay-Cees, KofC, Lions, Elks, etc.). Model RR clubs are 1st and foremost building and operating a model railroad, and the social part comes from that. For example, my club's By-Laws states that the purpose of the club is to: 1). Build, operate and maintain a model railroad, 2). Promote fellowship amongst the members, etc. Note the order of those.
My point is that in most other non-RR clubs, the reason people join is to be sociable. For RR clubs, the reason people join is to build or operate a model railroad and increase their hobby skills or to share them. Being sociable is a derivitive of that, and as long as you are just a tiny bit sociable to your own fellow members, you can last a long, long time in a RR club. Meanwhile, if you aren't socially outgoing in a more typical non-RR club, I don't think you'd last too long.
My second question is: is it the club, or is it you? No offense, but as 14 year member of my club, I have often been ignored by visitors, too. For example, when I see a stranger in the club as I'm walking by, I'll say "Hi.", but if the guy blows me off with a mumbled greeting...what am I supposed to do? Stop and ask him about his family? Quiz him on his modeling techniques? Ask him what his favorite RR is? It's a two way street, this communication thing.
As far as not being taken seriously, I still get that too, IMHO. And I'm 32. But since I'm in a club that has far, far more gray hairs in it than dark ones (if you know what I mean), and since I've been in the club since I was 15 (before I was a paying member), I think that there's a lot of carry over from those days. That folks still see me as "the kid", and heck, except for one other guy, I've been the youngest guy in the club since I joined it in 1993.
For example, if I say that a certain siding should or shouldn't be on the plan, I get a lot of resistance. Meanwhile, if someone who is a retiree (or close to it) says the same thing I do, suddenly it's given real consideration. The funny thing is that I've been a member and a model railroader longer than several of these members even if they are decades older than I. Sigh.
I agree with this too, although I don't think that this hobby is dominated by ‘socially inept' participants - we just a higher proportion than a typical group.
In my experiences, I think our hobby tends to attract introverts. Introverts generally don't prefer to socialize and would much rather be doing something on their own. In fact, I would not be at all surprised if ‘lone wolf' modelers out number those who belong to clubs.
As far as clubs go, it's always tough to break into an established club. There always seems be a core group who been there forever and tend warm up very slowly to new people. Perhaps because they are waiting to see if a newbie will hang around long enough to learn the ropes and contribute. Maybe they have seen too many new people come in, look around, play a little, and then disappear. I'm not saying that this justifies their cold behavior, but it might explain it.
Any hobby that revolves around technology and allows one to be reclusive is going to be a nerdy one. That's why I try not to take it or myself too seriously, and because the goal is to relax and reduce stress, not pile it on. Becoming disabled brought the effects of excessive stress on our bodies home to me in a big way, which is why I try not to sweat the small stuff anymore. I do what I like, and have little time for people who are obsessed with pointing out what you ought to care about. Yes, I've been known to use the "lighten up " mantra, because some people need to. You'll find a significant number of people in any activity who are enjoying their ego trip more than the activity itself.
Any group of people that responds to a newcomer with indifference or a "circle the wagons" mentality is a sure sign of their insecurity, and that it's time to move on.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
zxb1 wrote:At least you were'nt insulted on what scale you were running, The last train show I attended they the club I was observing asked what scale am I running. I told them Ho, then one of the club members laughed and said yeah hughley oversized. I guesse that what you expect from n-scalers at a train show.
The correct response is "But I can't see the Nothing scale". If they laugh the ice is broken, if they don't it's time to walk away.
Enjoy
Paul
PBoilermaker wrote:To be blunt, I have noticed more socially inept people in this hobby than in others. Let's face it, a lot of "weird" people like trains. Considering this demographic, your treatment isn't too surprising. That doesn't excuse the behavior, it is just par for the course I guess.-Mike
I agree. We're like the computer geeks - we relate more to the technology.