I can appreciate your frustration with the " do you wreck them for fun" questions. I just thought that this might have been some peoples first exposure to model trains. Knowing that you have greeters to interact with the visitors changes my thinking. Sorry again for offending anyone. I have never been on your side of the benchwork.
secondhandmodeler,I will echo want Paul said..There are times when questions should not be ask especially the stupid ones and yes there are stupid questions..I expect intelligent questions but,my golly keep those "how fast do they go,do you wreck your trains for fun to yourself so you won't show your ignorance after all I EXPECT KIDS to ask such questions but,not mature adults.Besides what does those questions have to do with any hobby or help questions? None that I can see..
Try answering ANY question while dispatching and there is 8 trains on the layout and yardmasters are requesting permission to foul the inbound and outbound leads plus you have engineers calling out signals! Did I mention the local wants track time so he can do his work?.Think you have time? Yes we "WOW!" them with our operations.You will be surprise how many ask how we keep so many trains moving without wrecking?
So,our club uses 3 greeters/security that wonder around and welcome our guest and will answer any questions they may ask.
* Security is needed to keep folks from wondering into the wrong areas such as the club room,tool storage closet(its a walk in) and the locker room.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Well, I wasn't so much offended as I was trying to point out the other side of the coin. It's easy to knock a club for not being "friendly" as it's totally subjective. Sometimes I get to the point where I think that if I wish someone at a train show "Good day!", I get the "What do you mean by that?" kind of look.
See, here's the other thing, too. I have worked in retail since I was 14 (and I'm 32 now), and I've seen some crazy customers come in the door. But you can bet your bottom dollar that these folks don't go home and tell their friends and family that they were complete loons. "Yeah, you should have seen him, Ethel! I had that guy twisting in the wind so bad he should have changed his name to Dorothy. It got to the point where he just let me keep the product, gave me my money back, and gave me a coupon rather than listen to me wail and drop f-bombs on him. Woo hoo!"
Nope, it's more like, "That guy at the store was so mean to me, I had to beg and plead for mercy. Boo hoo! I got barely a crust of bread from that meany. I will never shop there again, and you shouldn't either." You just know that they paint themselves as the hero, with the retailer cast in the role of the bad guy. BTW, we call these people, "Customers of the Week"...or, even worse, "Customers of the Month". And, rarely, those that are "Customers of the Year" are the one's where I have one hand on the phone to call the cops (like the one ranting, loudly, about some quasi-religious/gov't conspiracy). My fav of all time, however, is the one that tried to return merchandise without a reciept to my store for a full cash refund. No big deal, you say? Well, the capper is that she had bought the item at a completely different store! She couldn't understand why I wouldn't give her $15, because after all, I could then turn around and sell it for $15 and I wouldn't lose any money, right? Heh. You have got to have some brass ones (and I don't mean trains) to try to pull that one off.
Sorry, but I digress...
As for why we have the show, there are several reasons (in no particular order):1). We like to show off. We're proud of our accomplishments, and want see it enjoyed by others.2). We need the money. It's not much of a secret that the train shows for our club brings in the most money. More than dues, more than club car sales, more than anything else. No show = no club layout.3). To recruit new members. The best way to get new members is to show off what we can do and stir up their interest in us.4). To create goodwill in the town we're in (we're in a town park).5). As a 501(c)3 Non-Profit, we are educational. You can't educate anyone if they don't come and see you.
As for stupid questions, no question is truly "stupid". However, there's just so much free information available on the web these days (and most any public library will give you internet access), it does make one wonder why people don't use it for basic (and I mean basic) knowledge of model railroading. Like, how do trains change tracks? Or, what's a scale? That kind of basic question. It's totally different if someone wants a judgement call (as in, what's the best flex track to use), but when folks don't know what flex track is... Sigh.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Well. I had to walk away from that post and decide if I was offended or not. However be that all chips fall where they will, I think that the topic of train-show behavior and personality traits should go onto it's own thread. I dont want to elaborate with my take on the trainshow stuff without totally wrecking this thread.
At the recent show in Pine Bluff I over heard one of the operators admonish another "Slow down." That operator had his head deep into the DT400 he was holding with total concentration. That would not be a good time to say "HI! My name is SV! Whatcha doing?" If he loses the train mentally and gets distracted bad things happen.
Also it can be difficult for someone to pull out a crown jewel worth a kings ransom for a few laps at the show. A few oohs and aahs later it goes back into the box. I feel that if you bring something to show, run it for all to see. If it gets broke.. well... you dont have a heart issue do ya?
Now the people that comes to the show cannot get off scot free either. Some folks dont understand the true cost of some of the higher dollar equiptment and just how much money is literally rolling down the track. Let's say a 400 dollar engine or engines towing 20 cars at up to 40 dollars apeice retail. **taps calculator... that is 1200 dollars rolling on that track driven by another few hundreds or thousand more dollars in associated control system. the list goes on but you get my idea. The structures can be expensive and the scenery is 5 dollars a shake bottle out of what you get sometimes.
I think that if there is adequate insurance for shows, there should be no problem.. except that these products are one off- limited run- OOP never will be made again and in some cases like Life Like, bought out and no longer in existance except with a totally different support system.
No wonder the show people are nervous like a teaser at a foaling barn.
The public might go to walmart and buy a trainset and run it for an afternoon, decide that nothing works and pick up something else to do.
Tell me again about what people think and do at shows one more time please.
secondhandmodeler,Is that supposed to be humorous? If so, here's my take on it (as a veteran club member):
Welcome to the train show folks. Come on down to see the worlds greatest hobby! Please interrupt any club member you see running a train. Heck, they don't need to pay attention to their train, and if they wreck? Well, that's part of the fun! They are only cheap toys, so it's not like it's a big deal or anything. If you are not an experienced modeler, try to ask these engineers the most complicated questions possible while also sprinkling in the story of your life while you're at it. That your mom threw away your trains, that your great-great grandfather used to work for the Central Pacific, that you always like the blue engines over the yellow ones, and so on. Also, please rest your elbow on the track, after all, that's why we built that benchwork so high. And kids? Oh, encourage them to run around all day, zooming under the layout and yanking wires like it's taffy. If they break anything, just say you'll sue for making little Johnny curious about electricity. Please help yourself to play with any model autos on the layout, too. It's no different from Matchbox cars when you were a kid, so just fling them about without a care. Remember, we build model railroads to entertain you! If you want to treat our layout like a toddler in a sand box, why just go ahead. It's all just toys. It's not like they're important or anything.
Too funny and apparently true.
Spikejones52002, you certainly have had some bad luck with your camera locations. I hope that was unusual, and not the rule.
Good hunting.
BRAKIE wrote:Why is it adults can ask hairball questions like"Did you guys build all of this?" From a old lady "Do you put this train set away every night?"Do you guys ever wreck your trains for fun?Do you ever race your trains?Who has the fastest train set here?No kidding..I have been ask those questions by ADULTS!
Why is it adults can ask hairball questions like
"Did you guys build all of this?"
From a old lady "Do you put this train set away every night?"
Do you guys ever wreck your trains for fun?
Do you ever race your trains?
Who has the fastest train set here?
No kidding..I have been ask those questions by ADULTS!
My favorite is "Do they run on batteries?" I've been asked that several times about HO scale.
Dave Vollmer wrote:Here's me enjoying some time with a visitor, who is being a very good spectator in that she is preventing her young one from dismantling my layout.
Here's me enjoying some time with a visitor, who is being a very good spectator in that she is preventing her young one from dismantling my layout.
Yeah, but that kid behind the mountain is up to no good.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
Dave,I can FULLY UNDERSTAND what you are saying..After several (hundreds?) of open houses at the various clubs I been a member of I think I seen it all or very near of seeing it all to include adults with touchy feely fingers.
I have found most teenagers and young adults will ask intelligent questions and have some very nice comments.
Of course there is always the young lady with a kid or two in tow that will say"See that locomotive? Thats the type your Grandfather drove.
Having read through this thread, let me offer my take.
My first point is the occasional "cliquishness" or coldness of some model railroaders as absolutely not exclusive to our hobby. I'm also into Civil War reenacting, golf, and general aviation, and all of these hobbies have various "cliquey" elements. There are also plenty of really good people in all of these hobbies.
My other point:
I've shown my layout at a number of shows. Now, I'm as friendly as I can be because I really do enjoy talking to people and inspiring them to join our hobby. But, especially during those 2-day shows, some things start to break me down. They are:
1. Really, really, really stupid questions from adults who ought to know better.
2. Kids (most of whom are old enough to know better) who touch everything, in spite of signage to the contrary.
3. Parents who don't control said kids. Before you say it, I'll answer: I have a 4 and a 2 year-old, and I do control them at shows. They have a healthy respect for my home layout as well.
4. Getting asked the same mundane questions by everyone (i.e., "How fast can those trains go?" or "Who built this for you?" as if I couldn't possibly have done it myself).
5. Standing for 8+ hours straight. Unlike some exhibitors, I refuse to address a standing visitor from the seated position. It would be rude of me. So I stand.
6. The super nit-picker (who will invariably admit, when pressed, that he has no layout of his own).
Now, 95% of the time, my interactions with the public are very positive, and I really do enjoy the process, and look forward to it. But, my point is that some people don't handle the aforementioned stresses as well, and for all you know, you may have caught the club members after one of the above issues.
That does not ever excuse rudeness, but it might explain why some club members might be acting in what is otherwise an unusual way for them.
Here's me enjoying some time with a visitor, who is being a very good spectator in that she is preventing her young one from dismantling my layout. As I said, the vast majority of my interactions are very positive, and I enjoy shows very much. Some people may not enjoy it as much, or are more apt to cave to the stresses of a public show.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
I could give you several examples of why I think Railroads are getting grumpy.
I set up to Shoot video of UP's Challanger. I was totally alone. About a half mile up from me was another guy shooting video. He turned on his camera and walked all the way down to me and wanted to talk over my video.
I was in Napperville with hundreds of people. As I was shooting video of the train leaving. A PUNK shooting stills walked down off the enbankment and seen me shooting. He stopped right in front of me. He knew what he was doing because he got the big smerk on his face.
I was attending a GR convention in Seattle Wa. I was in a person's big yard shooting video of action in the persons switching yard.
Nobody was around where I was. I checked several times to see if I wa blocking anyone. It was clean.
A man walked 1 foot in front of my lens and began shooting over my back. When I looked behind NObody was there. When I asked the guy why he got infront of me instead of behind me. He said I was in his place. I had no right to occupy one place for so long.
Last week end. I was standing on the platform shooting video during the RR days in Rochelle Il. A man and his two kids walked out to the end of the walk way. Then he walked exactly under my camera.
Great he was out of everyone way. Now he began telling his kids where to stand for his shots and all about the trains.
I attempt to give everyone there due. I attempt to respect everyone right to return with outstanding photos.
Now I flatly tell someone to shutup or get out of my way.
on30francisco wrote:a look like you just came from Alpha Centauri.
Clubs of any sort can be cliquish environments...
Safety Valve,
You are correct about those tests and how they are used. I just found it interesting on how that one test defined introverts and extroverts.
Yours In Model Railroading,
John
Littleton, CO
I have been presented with a battery of tests in the past for work related duties and I gotta tell you, that paper does NOT tell THEM anything. What it will tell is how you will function against thier rules, policies and situations in the work.
I applied to a computer store some years ago and took one of those "tests" and adopted a very heavy approach to thier questions like zero compliance etc... they never called me LOL. I guess they want people who are sunshine and smiles without regard for actual ability. =)
My way of testing people is a winter storm with a little bit of everything coming across Sandstone in West Virginia. How they hold up under the stress is all I need to know. Some handle it well, others cower in the sleeper sucking thier thumbs.
As several of you have said, and I paraphrase, this is the human condition. I have noticed when i have joined a new organization, the same thing has happened to me. I joined two different Boy Scout troops over the years with my sons and could see a "good old boys" club among the adults in the troops. However, as time when on, i was accepted. It took getting involved with the troops and contributing something.
The Boy Scout troop I am currently involved with recognizes this behavior. We have discussed at Troop Committee meetings this stuff and have vowed to warmly greet any visitors at our troop functions. This shows Scout Spirit and what we are suppose to be made of. But, because of this "human condition", we have to discuss the problem and make that effort to overcome ignoring any visitors.
As for train shows, the majority of everyone I talk to is friendly and has helpful advice to my questions.
Ever take a Meyers-Briggs personality test? It's fun. They define an introvert as someone who gets their energy by being alone and doing things alone, and an extrovert who is energized by being around people.
reklein wrote: tracklayer said,"He said that from what he could gather everyone felt that I considered myself to be a "pretty boy", and that the word was that I was more into looking good in my seemingly unlimited wardrobe of cowboy clothes than I was shooting. That was the end of it for me, and I haven't been back since. I even sold"Uhhhh, tracklayer, Uhhh I been meanin to talk to you about that new conductor outfit you been wearin lately ,Uhhh
tracklayer said,"He said that from what he could gather everyone felt that I considered myself to be a "pretty boy", and that the word was that I was more into looking good in my seemingly unlimited wardrobe of cowboy clothes than I was shooting. That was the end of it for me, and I haven't been back since. I even sold"
Uhhhh, tracklayer, Uhhh I been meanin to talk to you about that new conductor outfit you been wearin lately ,Uhhh
Now, now reklein. Let's leave my conductor's outfit out of it!.
Actually, I think the real reason those guys acted the way they did toward me was because I'm single and was talking to some of their wives a little more than I should have been (?).
Tracklayer
SteamFreak wrote: selector wrote: Secondly, make "the announcement." It goes like this, "Hi, my name is Crandell. I heard from Bob that you guys know a lot about model trains. I wonder if I would be welcome to join you for this evening." Okay, I'll try it. But it will be kind of awkward being called Crandell.
selector wrote: Secondly, make "the announcement." It goes like this, "Hi, my name is Crandell. I heard from Bob that you guys know a lot about model trains. I wonder if I would be welcome to join you for this evening."
Secondly, make "the announcement." It goes like this, "Hi, my name is Crandell. I heard from Bob that you guys know a lot about model trains. I wonder if I would be welcome to join you for this evening."
Okay, I'll try it. But it will be kind of awkward being called Crandell.
...or Bill, or Bob, anything but Sue! (with due regard to Johnny C.)
selector wrote:Secondly, make "the announcement." It goes like this, "Hi, my name is Crandell. I heard from Bob that you guys know a lot about model trains. I wonder if I would be welcome to join you for this evening."
I have learned that it is best to take things into one's own hands when wanting something from others, even if it is acceptance into a circle or merely information. Eye contact is forthright and is moderately aggressive, but it engages the other person...and humanizes you. Avoiding eye contact because you are submissive, shy, insecure, whatever, will send messages that make others uncomfortable.
Secondly, make "the announcement." It goes like this, "Hi, my name is Crandell. I heard from Bob that you guys know a lot about model trains. I wonder if I would be welcome to join you for this evening." The ball lunges across the low net and is heading straight between their collective eyes. They flinch, duck, or they whack it back at you...it's up to them on their side of the net.
Nine times out of ten, they'll give you a reply like, "Sure, c'mon over." Or, it'll be, "Do you have any trains, a layout yourself?" They'll say something that will tell you they acknowledge your request to be included, and that you know it is their decision to make...not yours. They won't feel so threatened, and will probably warm up to you quickly. Don't come across as a smart a.s.s., don't monopolize the converstation, learn that one or two well chosen questions can get them eager to explain things to you. Few folks don't like talking about themselves or their hobbies.
Communications comes in many disguises, and it is only half as effective when it is one-sided. Politeness, inquisitiveness, a willingness to listen mostly and to talk only when necessary, active listening (nodding, giving the occasional "mhmm", eye contact, rephrasing or restating what you have heard in other words to convince them you really are trying to understand what they tell you, and so on), they will help the others to warm up to you.
You only get contact initiated solely by the other person in a restaurant or in a place of sales. Even then, you must present yourself first so that they can acknowledge you and begin to serve you.
on30francisco wrote: engineerjoey wrote: Midnight Railroader wrote: PBoilermaker wrote: To be blunt, I have noticed more socially inept people in this hobby than in others. Let's face it, a lot of "weird" people like trains. Considering this demographic, your treatment isn't too surprising. That doesn't excuse the behavior, it is just par for the course I guess.-MikeMaybe they/we are attracted to this hobby precisely because--unlike, say, bowling--it does not require interaction with others. I THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING THERE...Unfortunately, I've noticed that too. Many, but not all people at LHSs, train meets or other modeling venues seem to be either grouchy men adorned with zillions of articles of railroadania or socially inept introverts. When you try to either introduce yourself or ask questions pertaining to trains (heaven forbid you try to talk about any other subject), you either get a rude brush-off or a look like you just came from Alpha Centauri. Although I'm somewhat of a loner, I DO have many other interests and engage in other activities with others besides model railroading.I realize not everyone fits this stereotype.
engineerjoey wrote: Midnight Railroader wrote: PBoilermaker wrote: To be blunt, I have noticed more socially inept people in this hobby than in others. Let's face it, a lot of "weird" people like trains. Considering this demographic, your treatment isn't too surprising. That doesn't excuse the behavior, it is just par for the course I guess.-MikeMaybe they/we are attracted to this hobby precisely because--unlike, say, bowling--it does not require interaction with others. I THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING THERE...
Midnight Railroader wrote: PBoilermaker wrote: To be blunt, I have noticed more socially inept people in this hobby than in others. Let's face it, a lot of "weird" people like trains. Considering this demographic, your treatment isn't too surprising. That doesn't excuse the behavior, it is just par for the course I guess.-MikeMaybe they/we are attracted to this hobby precisely because--unlike, say, bowling--it does not require interaction with others.
PBoilermaker wrote: To be blunt, I have noticed more socially inept people in this hobby than in others. Let's face it, a lot of "weird" people like trains. Considering this demographic, your treatment isn't too surprising. That doesn't excuse the behavior, it is just par for the course I guess.-Mike
To be blunt, I have noticed more socially inept people in this hobby than in others. Let's face it, a lot of "weird" people like trains. Considering this demographic, your treatment isn't too surprising. That doesn't excuse the behavior, it is just par for the course I guess.
-Mike
I THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING THERE...
Unfortunately, I've noticed that too. Many, but not all people at LHSs, train meets or other modeling venues seem to be either grouchy men adorned with zillions of articles of railroadania or socially inept introverts. When you try to either introduce yourself or ask questions pertaining to trains (heaven forbid you try to talk about any other subject), you either get a rude brush-off or a look like you just came from Alpha Centauri. Although I'm somewhat of a loner, I DO have many other interests and engage in other activities with others besides model railroading.I realize not everyone fits this stereotype.
I think you sum it up best when you said "Although I'm somewhat of a loner"..Sadly I find most loners stand offish and quite rude when spoken to.
As far as rude maybe your body language was not the best.Been there as well and had to learn what parts body language plays in meeting new people..I was told by my late wife she was drawn to me by my "lost look".She said I looked lost,timid and like a loner when I walked into the room.Of course my speech is slightly impaired and I sound like I am from Brooklyn with a Cajun drawl.I learn to over come that problem socially as well.
As a former loner I came to realize those sad but,true facts as well it wasn't them as much as it was me at times.
myred02 wrote: I feel your pain. I'm 17 and I feel like I don't get taken seriously enough. For instance, my friend and I (he also happens to be 17, at least for another month...) have been out railfanning on many occasions when the local police shows up and asks us what we're doing. Being on public property, we would honestly say "We're trainwatching!" Usually, the officer looks at us with disbelief and then tells us to "mind ourselves". With that, he usually takes his leave.I know he's just doing his job, though. I mean, what would you think if you saw a couple of teenagers hanging around the tracks? -Brandon
I feel your pain. I'm 17 and I feel like I don't get taken seriously enough. For instance, my friend and I (he also happens to be 17, at least for another month...) have been out railfanning on many occasions when the local police shows up and asks us what we're doing. Being on public property, we would honestly say "We're trainwatching!" Usually, the officer looks at us with disbelief and then tells us to "mind ourselves". With that, he usually takes his leave.
I know he's just doing his job, though. I mean, what would you think if you saw a couple of teenagers hanging around the tracks?
-Brandon
I'm 14 and have been trainwatching a number of times when the cops go by. Up here they leave you alone just as long as you don't get too close to the tracks.
As for being leftout. It's like that day in and Day out at school, all because I like trains and want to become an engineer working for a railroad in Northern Maine.
Unfortunately, I've noticed that too. Many, but not all people at LHSs, train meets or other modeling venues seem to be either grouchy men adorned with zillions of articles of railroadania or socially inept introverts. When you try to either introduce yourself or ask questions pertaining to trains (heaven forbid you try to talk about any other subject), you either get a rude brush-off or a look like you just came from Alpha Centauri. Although I'm somewhat of a loner, I DO have many other interests and engage in other activities with others besides model railroading. I realize not everyone fits this stereotype but I believe this kind of behavior, besides being inexcusable, fosters the negative reputation others have about our hobby and the people who enjoy it. I believe there are many closeted model railroaders who truly love and are open about the hobby but are turned off by these negative stereotypes. Because of this they avoid the so-called model railroading "social" scene, hence, they are not counted in polls pertaining to model railroaders (sort of like me).