Are "pure" free lanced model railroads dead?

[dknelson]

I see plenty of free lanced layouts on layout tours but not so many in the magazines, which might tell us more about magazine editors than about what modelers are really doing .
dave nelson

[CNJ831]

I have to agree with Dave on this one. Most layouts I've had occasion to visit have been free lance. MR did one of its rather unscientific polls regarding this question not too long ago and, as I recall, better than half of those responding said they were free-lancers.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

Me too, the editors of the magazines have tried ramming prototype, research, operating sessions, and narrow gauge logging down the readers throat and then they ask why they have a declining readership. Tell a lie long enough and people start to believe it? The rivet counters have taken over the media. FRED

[Anonymous]

No - mine is the "Wisconsin & Iowa Railroad Co." (WIAR) and the towns I've
modelled are:

Wolverine, Wis.
St. Catherine, Iowa
Pumpkin Patch, Minn.
New Moscow, ND
Wautoma, Iowa

None of those towns exist (or at least not that I know of) and personally I think it'd take
a lot of the creativity out of the hobby if you confined yourself to modelling only
specific towns/cities/lines, etc. You'd spend all your time slaving over details that will
wear-out even the most ardent enthusiast and lose the real fun in the hobby.

[Anonymous]

I would say not. It just depends what you are into. Some people like doing research, etc. And others just want to have fun with it. But, I believe that a layout should have a "back story" as to why and how it developed. If you are following a prototype closely, the story is already there. If free-lancing, you have to make up the story, like Gordon Odegard, Linn Wescott, Frank Ellison did. It was made up, but the lines had a purpose and reason. Just stringing track all around the basement without some sort of plan may not end up being fun to play with in the end.

[Anonymous]

Certainly not mine! I even invented a whole new country called Dalreada with it's capital city called Marcstadt, a busy seaport called Melmatt with a major winter sports resort called Royston. I have even written a travel brochure for visiting Dalreada. The railroad serving all of Dalreada is called Dalreada National Railways No, free-lancing is far from dead, it is just not heard of enough. Have fun.

[Anonymous]

That's what in talking about. A back story, reason, etc. Al Kalmbach used to make brochures for his Great Gulch, Yahoo Valley & Northern in his spare time.

[Anonymous]

From my experience I feel most modelers, including myself, create free lanced railroads because they have more freedom to create their "ideal" railroad. You have so much freedom to create your own world, your own scenery, your own paint schemes, operate in your favorite era, etc., etc. I and many modelers like to call ourselves "prototype free lancers" meaning that we take all our modeling cues from the prototype and simply tweake them a bit to fit our fictional railroad. An excellent example of such a railroad I think would be the Allen McClelland's Virginian & Ohio. He operates a fictional railroad that operates and looks quite a bit like the old B&O or C&O Railroads.

[Anonymous]

My Eastern Gully & Gorge RR is "pure" free lanced. I copy areas that I like and model equipment of several periods. In HO from the late 40's when I started to some things of 2000. My layout is half done and will take several years to finnish. Dead NO. Just still working on it.

[Anonymous]

That word "pure" in front of "free lance" confuses the issue. My line is called "Prescott & Pacific". Prescott is real, it's the town I live in - but I'm not tryibg to model it as it is but as it might have been 50 to 100 years ago. Pacific is real, too. It's the big ocean that 100 years ago every railroad's name indicated that was where it was going. But it is pretty vague. Our Pacific coast is hundreds(maybe thousands) of miles long. I haven't reached it yet, so I don't know where it will be. Somewhere between San Diego and Seattle, probably. Is that "pure" enough, or does a real town bastardize it?

[Anonymous]

Long way from dead to my thinking and hopefully my own imagination will continue to satisfy my enjoyment. Don't want to get too technical and exact to drive the hobby to perfection and take the real joy out of the creation. Wonderful to see in the magazine and capture some ideas but, too complicated to enjoy the hobby for me.

[Kent]

http://sunnydale.kenttimm.com

[Anonymous]

From the replies above I'd say "free" lancing is very much alive and well. As much as I"d like to "model" the Great Northen right down to the last rivet and pine cone it just ain't gonna happen so in that regard I'm pretty happy to just see that goat slapped up on the side of a boxcar or loco and if my railroad serves a grain elevator that is actually in Missouri but on my layout is in North Dakota well then it is MY layout. All of which is to say that free-lancers are great and so are "purists". The important thing is to just build that model railroad. Start tonight!

[Anonymous]

Far from it! The Bucolic & Ft. Nubbins is intended to compress maybe 250 miles of scenery changes into a couple of scale miles of track. This is going to take the rest of my life, and may remain forever unfinished. It is necessary because I don't have a hundres acres under roof. tebo41

[Anonymous]

What's nice is that freelanced model railroads seem to have elevated out of the "humorous name" and "fanciful paint" levels of 30+ years ago when I started. If you get out the venerable 101 Track Plans, any two words with an "&" between them were a railroad name. All of the names that have been posted above seem reasonable and possible, some give a geographic hint (if we didn't know, where would we think CSX ran???) and some have mentioned that "my railroad isn't real, but I run it as if it was.

More power to the guys and gals who model their prototype very accurately, but I bet the best of 'em can only get about 10 or 20 scale miles into their layout, even in HO or N.

I have fun not only doing "the backstory," but managing my railroad in a fiscally responsible way -- all EMD (one set of parts), four axle locos (simpler, SD's not needed in the Midwest), no turbos (cheaper, simpler for the mechanics, simple paint (cheaper than fancy), as little deferred maintainance as possible (it's easier to fix small problems) -- so it seems unified and likely. Industries reflect the midwestern setting, even schedules are leisurely. This is not a high-intensity railroad.

While I honor friends with structure names, I keep the humor somewhat restrained or "coded" because even John Allen said he got tired of the "Gory and Defeated" pun fairly quickly, but by then it was famous. "Sam 'n' Ella's Dinette" is about as bad as it gets...

This may not get it for others, but it's just what I want.

Bill M

[CBQ_Guy]

Well no, they're certainly not dead. If so, George Selios and Allen McClelland would sure be surprised! I think there is definitely an increase in prototype layouts, and I'm not talking proto-freelanced, but layouts which are based on all the research now available which is easier to accompli***hese days with the internet and the plethora of historical societies out there. In other words, it's just "easier" to do, so more people are doing it. On the other hand, I don't think this automatically would mean a corresponding decline in "pure" free lanced layouts, but I really can't say.

My layout is to be proto-freelanced - based on the CB&Q and it's double track mainline between Chicago and Galesburg, Illinois as much as is do-able based on my current level of knowledge at the time I build, scenic, and detail the layout. Finding out this information and being able to implement it is just plain FUN to me. BUT, the rest of the railroad is a fictional branch line of the Burlington. So it will be typical but not proto-typical in a sense.

Early in the layout planning stage, I seriously considered trying to model a specific and strictly prototypical area of the Burlington. My thinking was, and in a way still is, that doing this sucessfully would be just plain cool and very satisfying. But I finally decided that it was way too limiting to how and what I wanted to see and operate on my layout. Therefore, I abandoned that idea and created my current plan and way of modeling the CB&Q.

This isn't strictly an either/or question either. I say this because you can have the most prototypical layout in the world, but can still satisfy an urge to free lance just by adding a made up short line, belt railroad, etc. to your layout and interchanging it at some point with your "real" RR. Yeah, I know that adding an interchange to the prototype depiction isn't prototypical then, but you get my drift.

Finally, I guess a "pure" free lanced model railroad won't ever be dead unless we let it die - and I don't really see that happening.

Take care all,

[CP5415]

I guess how you define "pure free lanced"
My layout consists of a stretch of track somewhere in the US northeast.
It has no towns named after actual towns. It has no industries named after any actual industry. That's freelanced
Sure I'm using CP livery locomotives but since on my layout, I own Canadian Pacific!
I guess I can call it freelanced.

Just my 2 cents

Gordon

[Anonymous]

Sadly, I have to agree with those who see the magazines having lost the focus. Freelance RRs still are popular, but the magazines have forgotten to write much to serve us. They've gone overboard on prototyping and therefore produce ever fewer articles I find useful.

[potlatcher]

When I first got into model railroading as a youth in 1978, free lanced railroads seemed to be the norm, based on what I saw in the magazines. I sure this is because there were so many years when there were so few models available. Modelers had to create free lanced railroads to justify running steam locomotives obviously based on Pennsylvania, Santa Fe and B&O prototypes (for example) together on one railroad. Even into the early nineties, both MR and RMC "pushed" free lance railroads on their readers - at least as much as they tend to push prototype layouts today.

Based on this influence, I spent several years planning a free lanced railroad with multiple branch lines radiating out of my hometown to some of my favorite nearby places. But by the time I was ready to start building a layout based on this free lanced line, it just didn't make sense any longer. Instead, I found a prototype shortline that interchanged with three local railroads, had an interesting traffic mix, and a small stable of locomotives that I would enjoy running. I am now actively builing a layout based on this prototype and having a great time doing it.

I am sort of a stickler for details and when details don't fit together it bugs me. So, it just didn't work for me to create a free lanced railroad. When I first realized that free lancing didn't work for me, I resented the magazine editors for making me feel that I "had to" create a free lanced railroad. But now I realize that by planning one, it gave me time to develop my interests and tastes, and learn that a prototype railroad works better for me.

Obviously there are still plenty of modelers who don't sweat the small stuff, and build free lance railroads. I think that generic railroads, where you can run whatever you want in a non-specific setting, are probably equally popular, especially on club layouts. From my side of the prototype/free-lance debate, I think the tendency toward building and operating prototype-based layouts in the magazines is great, but I don't think they'll ever kill the free lancers. Who knows, one day the pendulum may swing the other way and the prototypers will be complaining about not seeing their interests covered in the press.

[wp8thsub]

"...the editors of the magazines have tried ramming prototype, research, operating sessions, and narrow gauge logging down the readers throat and then they ask why they have a declining readership. Tell a lie long enough and people start to believe it? The rivet counters have taken over the media."

I see this argument a lot, and I don't buy it. There need be no fear or loathing of prototype modeling.

1. For a lot of modelers, working toward greater prototype accuracy INCREASES hobby enjoyment. Even if you're a freelancer, high quality models with greater prototype fidelity can have a place on the layout. Who looks on the hobbyshop shelf and makes a purchasing decision trying to get the least accurate model possible? You don't HAVE to strive for greater prototype fidelity just because a magazine features articles on research. It's a philosophical cafeteria where you pick how much accuracy is for you.

2. Most of the operating session stuff printed in major magazines like MR emphasizes fun and comarederie as much as adherence to prototype practice. I host operating sessions on my layout. It greatly increases my enjoyment and provides entertainment for my friends in the hobby who don't have layouts of their own. I regularly participate in op sessions on other layouts too, and for the same reason...it's fun if it's done right. They're also a great way to get kids involved; I have a regular operator who's 10 and prototype operation doesn't scare him a bit.

3. Prototype modelers tend to adopt higher modeling standards. As a result, their models tend to be of higher average quality than those of hobbyists as a whole and are more presentable in photos. The best looking, best running layouts I encounter on layout tours thus tend to be the products of those with a commitment to represent the prototype, including pure proto layouts like Ted York's Cajon Pass and freelanced but proto inspired layouts like Lee Nicholas' Utah Colorado Western. They're often also more active modelers and produce more that they can submit to the magazines.

Magazines publish what is submitted to them. If they aren't featuring as much freelanced modeling couldn't it be because they're receiving less of it? The greater availability of high quality models is allowing modelers with higher standards to move more into the ranks of proto representation (more accuracy can be had with less work, thus it's an attractive option); many of those guys used to be freelancers.

4. Apply the emotion behind the anti-prototype stance to other magazines. What if an auto restoration magazine decided that the average reader was put off by features on high quality work and discontinued them in favor of stories on cousin Bob's clapped out Plymouth Duster that's on blocks. After all, Bob doesn't like researching how to do anything and doesn't think he should be held to any standards for presentability of his project in print. What would happen to readership there?

5. Last, we prototype modelers really don't care what you do on your own layout. Just have fun! I do.

[Anonymous]

I'm new to the hobby (but I had a Lionel as a youngster) and even the prototype layouts in the magazines have some kind of "cheating" involved. There seem to be areas where personal preference over-rides accurate reproduction with regard to things like couplers or signal lights or even the choice of one brand of track over another where the prototype specs are not exactly reproduced in a given scale.

I agree that the magazines are too focused on models that feature the real world but I personally find the slavish reproduction of reality to be a bore. If you have the time and money it is easy to find the parts and "build" a real line. I more enjoy the articles that feature a freelanced world that shows me the personality of the modeler, not their ability to copy something in miniature.

As someone who has worked in Hollywood for nearly thirty years, much of it in miniatures and visual effects ( and a lifelong science fiction fan), I am designing my first layout (in N) as a lunar colony sometime later this century or early in the next. I intend to include scratchbuilt lunar structures, futuristic vehicles, a monorail, a rail launcher, and an ore processing facility as the base of the colony's economy. I won't have any trees but who knows what might be found deep in a crater on the Farside?

[Anonymous]

well Folks My railroad has to be free lance. I like all the engines,I have interchange tracks that bring in the big '70's and '90' to pick up freight, and then dissapear off the pike. but then comes saturday and sunday and we go down to the museum for fan trips on all the old steamers. they can run all day. the little guys love to see the tains turn on the table, [me too]. This way i can use any name that i can buy. Any engine that i like. In my worls they have all been donated to the museum. Reality?
Not likely. But fun, Oh Yes Jim

[Anonymous]

Now wp8thsub, I take some exception to what you wrote, first "Prototype modelers tend to adopt higher modeling standards. As a result, their models tend to be of higher average quality than those of hobbyists as a whole and are more presentable in photos. " So prototypers are better modelers that freelances? What an elitist attitude!!! I could say that prototypers are dullards who are incapable of creativity and have to have some one else do all the planning for them, including their hobby. Does that sting, or is it true? Second, quote of wp8thsub "Magazines publish what is submitted to them. If they aren't featuring as much freelanced modeling couldn't it be because they're receiving less of it? " You are right, they publish a random per cent of what comes in and have NO say in what they choose to publish. DUH! Last, and I quote again from wp8thsub, "What if an auto restoration magazine decided that the average reader was put off by features on high quality work and discontinued them in favor of stories on cousin Bob's clapped out Plymouth Duster that's on blocks. After all, Bob doesn't like researching how to do anything and doesn't think he should be held to any standards for presentability of his project in print. What would happen to readership there?" Well you do have a point as you state a restoration magazine, but the name Model Railroader isn't Prototype Model Railroader. Also, I don't remember seeing that Automotive Restoration Magazine on the shelf at the store. I did see Hot Rod and Popular Hot Rodding and I think adding big wheels, wild paint, and monster big blocks would be more a a freelance thing? I bet if they ran restore articles they would soon go broke? I myself think that the above Duster would sell more magazines being built up into tricked out non prototype form over articles about returning it to a fully restored slant 6 version. So you say prototypers are a better modeler than freelancer, better writers than freelancers, more social than freelancers, better photographers than freelancers, and enjoy the hobby more than freelancers. THAT WHAT YOU WROTE. Man you are so much better than me there is no reason for me to model anymore. Thanks for showing me the light. FRED

[jghall]

My own layout, The Bulldog Lines, is a "wholly owned subsidiary of the NYC, circa 1961. This way I might have the best of both worlds. I have Bulldog Lines engines & rolling stock along with accurate models (autos & buildings as well as RR items). My towns are fictional but our group does operate using the system created by RMC a few years back.

[Fritzi]

If the model magazines are over-emphasizing "prototype" modelling over "pure free lancing", it may be because most of the prototypes aren't around anymore and this is one way to try to preserve awareness of them and interest in them.

With that said, there does seem to be a de-emphasis in the "pure free lancing" type of modelling. I remember a series of articles that addressed building a true "pure free lanced" railroad. The line was called the Portage Hill and Communipaw and was set in the early 1900's. Gordon Odegaard and others built a nice free lance pike that was authentic to the era but imaginary as to the railroad. The builders created a whole story line for the pike, had articles relating to roling stock, motive power, buildings, the whole works. They even came up with rationales not only for the industries served, but even for the bandstand they put in the municipal park. That type of series of articles I'd like to see again. Then, perhaps, some of our fellows would be inspired to share the stories of their own free lance railroad empires.

[Anonymous]

I have a all times era that even has a small army of miget kinghts! My towns are from a dementional warp and now i'm thinking of bulding not up but down and have a underground city

[Anonymous]

I don't think they're "dead", I think there are a lot more prototype modelers submitting stuff to the magazines. But wait a minute, David Barrow's Cat Mountain and Santa Fe adhered to Santa Fe practice, but it "replaced the Santa Fe" in part of Texas, remember? It served fictional towns and fictional industries. I know it's gone now, but it was a fictional railroad holding to ATSF practices. I like the "what if" layouts. What if the Pennsy had run a branch line to (insert a town not on the Pennsy), what it the ATSF had bought the Blooming to Kansas City portion of the Alton & Southern when GM&O offered it for sale in the late 40s, what if they Pennsy had survived into modern times and PC & Contrail never happened, etc.

It's all fun!

Ed

[BRAKIE]

No,I don't think so..At the club I go to of the 44 members 17 has a free lance railroad..I have my own short line the Columbus & Hocking Valley Ry which is owned and operated by my fictitious CDB Industries which also owns 6 other short lines and yes I have cars and some locomotives lettered for all of the CDBI's short lines besides C&HV after all it belongs to CDBI...
My C&HV is just as real to me as the C&O I also model..

[wp8thsub]

"So prototypers are better modelers that freelances? What an elitist attitude!!!"

I described what I've observed and I stand by it. What I have noticed is that people who like prototype modeling often do so through an inner drive to pu***heir own individual modeling envelope. I don't think it's unfair to state that modelers who are driven to improve the accuracy of their work TEND to produce higher quality work ON AVERAGE than those who reject such standards. Many freelancers do great work, but many former freelancers (myself included) have been drawn to prototype modeling because of the increased availability of accurate models that make such representations easier.

I also don't think it's unfair to note that modelers who have this internal drive to improve accuracy might TEND to produce more photogenic models, and then have a desire to share their latest successful project, than people who just do whatever. Nothing in what I wrote was intended to imply that freelancers can't produce something outstanding.

"I could say that prototypers are dullards who are incapable of creativity and have to have some one else do all the planning for them, including their hobby. Does that sting, or is it true?"

I don't see any difference in creative abilities between the proto and freelance modelers I know, but that's just dumb ol' me. Since my own creativity and powers of observation are likely dulled by my proto modeling you can take that for what it's worth.

"Man you are so much better than me there is no reason for me to model anymore."

Jeez Fred, if that's how you want to look at it, go ahead. I'm reacting to the oft stated notion that proto modelrs have no fun and are trying to expunge all fun from the hobby for everyone else by stating that I don't think that's true.

[Anonymous]

Whew. Alot of very good thoughts here. Easy on the drawbars please. I see this as a wonderful expresion of creativity. Even John Allen himself has a Dinosaur as a yard Switcher. Yes he was a stickler for detail etc.. but he taught us with that Dino, one can have a bit of fun.

I have seen many layouts that are "Free lanced." usually they have a influence of one road or another however as people there are many examples of humor and creativity in the hobby.

Let us enjoy what we can even if as a 8 year old with a loop of track. In time he or she may grow up to run big trains. And that for many of us would be a blast.

Good Luck

Lee

[krump]

mine is the CCAST-AWAY Railway - stuff I've had in a box, plus all the other stuff collected, discarded, and given to me (or anonymously left at the house). It's a start, and who knows what it will evolve into. I'm not even sure what free-lance is, I'm constructing more of a deliberate, highly detailed mistake.Having way too much fun with it now - tough to go to work... the name also has the initials of my family members.

[Anonymous]

Not by a long shot!.. However this preoccupation with rehetorical questions is silly. Prototype / freelance..who cares. Each has all the merits in the world...just different ones in different order. Personally I love a "glow in the dark" toxic waste hopper and it makes me chuckle. That's fun and anything fun is what this whole hobby is all about.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jmkraker

Is there less interest in pure free lanced model railroads? By pure I mean fictional railroad companys running through fictional towns. I don't see as many free lanced model railroads as I used to.

What do you think?

I think a lot of people are saying that the magazines are pushing porto type layouts. To tell the truth they only print what is submitted by model railroad authors. That is us folks. Maybe the durth of free lance model artiles are from lack of us "Free Lance" modlers it what is missing.
I am a free lance modeler and I seem to kitbash everything on the layout. I have as much fun as anyone. I aslo adminer the person that can take a proto type and build it fathfully, I say more power to them and as long as they are having fun I'm happy.
To say that "Free Lance" layout are dead is to say that hmuan imigination is dead!!

LEde CEO
Ba***ewak & Pindingle R.R.

[Anonymous]

Dear MR Editor: The Thunder Gulch Traction Company of Gulchville, Ohio is loosely modeled after Ohio and other interurban and street railways of 1910-1938, "0" gauge. I have scratch built, kit built, kit bashed Pitman trolleys, and custom brass cars. All kinds. The company has a complete fictional history, and is in the 89th county of Ohio, Gulch County, heretofore undiscovered, in the southeast quadrant, connecting with the Northern Ohio Traction Co. at Urichsville, with overnight freight service to Cleveland. Bill Vigrass, Superintendent.(Native Ohioan now resident in NJ).
1813 Cardinal Lake Dr., Cherry Hill, NJ 08003.

[Anonymous]

I suspect there may be a growth in layouts depicting fictional locations but using real railroad company names and realistic situations, track plans, etc. - my line is home to a museum (this allows me to run FM C-Liners and Erie-Builts alongside SD40-2s). However, CSX also uses the line to reach some small industries, so motive power for freight trains can either be CSX (Dash 8 and AC4400, planning to get a Dash-9 when I can afford it), or some of the museum's locos (It's assumed the museum has an agreement with CSX to operate some of the services). there are also two passenger services, one using leased Metrolink Bombardier bilevels and the other using the museum's C&NW PS bilevels.

[FJ and G]

I must be the only one here who by and large likes models based on a real railroad. To me, a lot of the fun is researching the real railroad and then modeling it.

I suppose a counter argument to mine would be that many free-lance RRs are based on one or more real railroads anyway, however. I guess that running a railroad like the Turtle Creek Central has some good points. Not only is the name cute, you could also mix motive power in ways you otherwise would get criticized for by the rivet counters. Also, you could make some neat paint schemes (much more creative than the drabber Pennsy or Norfolk & Western, for example).

I do admit enjoying many freelanced railroads such as John Allan's and the recent Malcolm Furlow bizarre masterpiece.

However, I'll stick by my guns and go against the grain on this one and vote for modeling the prototype.

[AltonFan]

QUOTE: ...what it the ATSF had bought the Blooming to Kansas City portion of the Alton & Southern when GM&O offered it for sale in the late 40s,...

The Bloomington to Kansas City line that the GM&O was offering was not on the Alton & Southern, which is a belt railway in the St. Louis area, then controlled by the Aluminum Company of America. The GM&O, in its efforts to secure the Alton Railroad (formerly Chicago & Alton) as a Chicago gateway, offered the "Jack Line", which ran from Bloomington, IL to Kansas City via Jacksonville, IL, to Santa Fe. The sale was nixed by the ICC because of the objections of Santa Fe's competitors.

Where the Alton has been buried under several layers of mergers, the Alton & Southern still exists and operates in the St. Louis area. For a time, it was owned by the Missouri Pacific and the Chicago & North Western.

Sorry for the tangent, but you have to keep your Altons straight!

[techguy57]

I'm just starting my HO scale MidWest Valley RR. Purely fictional although I'm planning to piece together a lot of the towns from towns in the NW Chicago suburbs and from around where I grew up in Indiana. I think that prototypes have their places but I'm not planning on putting mine in a museum so why not have a little fun, right? Best wishes to my freelancing friends!

Mike

[krump]

a Duster on blocks in the back yard is a great idea Flee307 - how large would the blocks be in HO Scale though? think I might give it a shot for the Junkyard Warts business that I'm adding track side.
cheers

[Anonymous]

First, I don't buy the "historical" part of the preservation arguement for protypical modelling. If Mr. Joe Blow decides to build a layout depicting a fallen flag and does it admirably; he has indeed added to the history, but only for a limited amount of time. For unfortunately Mr. Joe Blow's time to go to the big layout in the sky comes and the layout is dismantled and turfed. So much for the history. I think there are great reason's to model protytpically - the challenge, the research, the skill in duplicating scenes, and operations.

And what of us who prototypically freelance, and I suspect a great many free lanced layouts fall into this category. I'm building a sub division of CP that didn't exist, but I'm basing it on prototypical track and operations that do exist. Then this prototypical free lance line merges with a completely free lanced mythical subsidiary of Montana Rail Link in the interior of British Columbia.

Prototypical and free lance can get fuzzier than what I have described above. I have learned over the years in various forums, that what at one point seems to be "obvious" isn't so obvious after you begin scrutiny. I put a query in at the layout design sig about the width and breadth of my layout - and found the answer wasn't so obvious. I once questioned "selective compression" and "layout design elements" and found that people have a wide range of interpretations of notions we assume to be universal. I asked the question, can the Horse Shoe Curve be model using straight track only. You'd be amazed at how many said "Yes." A common retort was: "if the track mimics the operations of Horse Shoe Curve and has familiar structures, then it can be modelled." Needless to say, I'm one of those who believes you have to have a curve in your modelling of Horse Shoe Curve before I'll accept it is the aforementioned.

Then again in the layout design sig, I challenged when does a modelling element move from prototypical to free lance. How much detail do you need to have a "prototypical" model. I was surprised at the answers this brought forth. Again there were those who insisted there didn't need to be much prototypical for a modelled element to be prototypical. To me, this philosophy enters the realm of prototypical free lancing.

My agenda is not to have a modelled erea that is prototypical or free lanced, instead I suscribe to the "wow" factor theory. If you can make your visitor's say "wow!" when they see your layout, you've got a great layout.

[FJ and G]

*

[vsmith]

OK, LETS ALL GET ONE THING STRAIGHT.....

EVERY MODEL RAILROAD IS FREELANCED!!!!!

Yep, thats right ALL are. Heres the reason,

Even if you are modeling a specific railroad, specific place or even a specific time, it is still YOUR interpretation of that specific item. No one can accurately model every detail or even most details froma specific place. Are your prototype switchyards layed out using scale blueprints from the specific railroad? of course not, if you did one scale switch yard in HO could be 10 feet long. Same with towns, or corners, or even buildings, the exact scale building could be several square feet of layout.

So what do we do, we SELECTIVELY choose what we want to model, we COMPRESS scale on yards and structures, and we interpet what it is that we want to show. In other words, your FREELANCING the prototype.

Example, I have seen published and in person over the years several layouts all based on the same Denver & Rio Grande Western narrow gauge railroad, especially the Ophir loop, NOT ONE OF THEM LOOKED THE SAME. All were unique.

If they were prototypicaly based wouldnt you expect then to be at least similar? The answer is of course NO. Even if the same modeler rebuilt the same layout they wouldnt do it exactly the same each time. Because each new time the layout would be built the modeler or group of modelers would want to try something new or different. And each Layout was different because each individual modeller brought to the table his owns vision of what he wanted to portrait.

Hence each layout is a unique FREELANCED vision even if it is based on a real prototype. The very act of altering it, changes it to a unique one of a kind version.

If you dont believe me then simply send me photos of your exact to scale based on actual blueprints and layed out in a warehouse cause its the only space big enough to house the whole dang layout. I cant wait to see it.

[FJ and G]

vssmith

You are correct and your point is well taken.

However, in general terms (emphasis on general), a non-freelanced model RR will usually take familiar elements of the real railroad: e.g., correct engine livery and decals and forested mountains or farming area instead of deserts or Rocky Mountains. While not 100% (or even 25%) prototypically correct, the non-freelanced model RR will nontheless evoke (emphasis on evoke) feelings of realism.

While a free-lanced RR may have correct scenery, the whimsical or fantasy paint scheme of the engine and sometimes the names of the towns and stores and other things, makes it harder (but not always impossible) for me to form a connection between the model and a real place.

To confuse the issue even further, some free-lancers mix non-freelanced. For example, Turtle Creek may be connected to the Reading.

[vsmith]

What happens if a modeler recreates a scene that once existed say 40 years ago but today doesnt look like that anymore? Would you still feal disconnected between the model and the place?

Its the same with all layouts since they are all viewpoints based on one modelers opinion. The same is true for equipment livery, paint schemes, etc. They all changed over time and if the model evokes an era before you experinced the real place it will have that same disconnect from the current reality. How many open landscaped of the 30' and 40's are today urban?

As for your definition of freelanced it seams that anyone doing a mythical railroad would still strive for a realism based on existing or historic examples. There were onces literally hundreds of small carriers and branch lines criss-crossing the countryside. those hundreds of carriers and hundreds of small towns and villages they served have vanished over the last century also. So who's to say whats "real" on a layout, if a modeler choses to do a layout based on a never-existed-in-reality carrier, but they use the same level of detail and realism to do it, where's the difference. I can't see it. It's all just a different point of view from yours, so don't condemn, it just accept it as such.

Hence I still stand by my original point that ALL layouts are FREELANCED, even yours...Think about it.

[plainsman]

I've been a modeler for over 40 years , and I am a rivit counter. Years ago ,accurate data on the prototype was not as easily obtained as it is today, so I made up my own railroad so I could "control" what cars, locomotives and industry I would model and it would be accurate in my own mind. As my railroad evolved to its present form, I began incorporating prototype history, and technical items into it, and it has become more prototypical. I try to develope what "probably would have been" had my railroad really existed. It is a ficticious railroad using prototype practices.
By the way, I model a line from Colorado Springs to Ogden, over what was the Colorado Midland, and what would have been, had they fullfilled their plans to extend to Ogden. My railroad competes with the Rio Grande and allies with the Rock Island.

[vsmith]

In other words, a FREELANCED layout based on a one time existant PROTOTYPE carrier.

The FACT that the extension to Ogden never existing DID NOT limit your vision of what you wanted to model, Thanks for illustrating my points.

You cannot alway model everything precisly, nor would you want to. That would be slavish, and take the the creativity factor out of Model RRing. It YOUR railroad, YOU build it YOUR way, thats the fun part of this hobby.

[vsmith]

Oh by the way, My layout (under construction, all the track is down) is also a pure FREELANCED layout.

The Borracho Railroad, a 1/2" scale 42" guage desert narrow guage serving the towns of Borracho, Purgitory, the Borracho Distillery, and the F.U.B.A.R. mining consortium.

Made up, Yup!

Whimsicle? It will be!

Reailsticly detailed? Oh you better belive it will be.

Prototypes? I've already found prototype Mexican mining cars I'm dying to scratchbuild.

Will I have fun? Oh Hell Yes!

The biggest Advantage I have is that I can model whatever I decide I want to run on my layout, I'm not limited to "Oh the D&RGW never ran those EBT Mikado's , I couldn't possibly put them on MY layout" Of course I can. I can choose anything that tickles my interest, and I will. I've always been more into the actual modeling of trains than the running of a layout. For some the "layout" is the main thing. For me the "layout" exists for me to run the trains that I model.

[dharmon]

I guess its all in your personal definition of freelanced. I made up my own roadname, serving actual locations but I can't accurately or properly model them realistically. And the routes do not follow what is actually in place. So freeelanced by my definition yes, but trying to model it as if it were the prototype based on how actual roads do business.

I was and still am influenced by the John Allens and other greats from time past.

One great "freelanced" pike I remember reading about in MR long ago was an N scale lines someone made based of the Toliken books. He had if I remember correctly the dwarf mines and smog mountain, etc. Not my particular style, but hey it was his domain and he made it the way he wanted. Pretty cool I thought.

[potlatcher]

vsmith is correct in his assertion that all layouts will never be perfect scaled-down versions of the prototype, and perhaps all are "freelanced" then. But for the sake of this discussion, I think that freelanced or not freelanced should be determined by the builder's intentions. If he intends to create a ficticious railroad, or a real railroad in a ficticious location, or a real railroad in a location where that railroad never ran (a "what if"), then he is freelancing to a greater or lesser degree. But if he says "I'm trying to recreate the New York Central between Toledo, Ohio and Butler, Indiana as it was in 1957," then he will certainly be forced to selectively compress and omit to fit his space, and the resulting layout will reflect his interpretation of history, but I wouldn't call him a freelancer.

Based on this definition Allen McClelland (Virginian & Ohio), Bill Darnaby (Maumee Route), David Barrow (Cat Mountain & Santa Fe) and Tony Koester (in his Appalacian Midland period) would be freelancers, while Jack Burgess (Yosemite Valley) and Tony Koester (in his present Nickle Plate Road period) would be "prototypers".

Personally, I'm shooting for the latter category with my shortline layout, but I plan to stray into the former category on occasion. With my particular shortline, I plan to build a layout based on the prototype circa 1955. I also expect that I will build and run models appropriate to the location from several different time periods (different era for each operating session) without changing the layout between operating sessions to reflect the time change. And, I may create a ficticious version of the same shortline with different locomotives to suit my taste. These plans will certainly qualify me as a freelancer from time to time.

Funny how the harder we try to draw lines within the hobby, the fuzzier those lines get. Guess it's best to live and let live and show mutual respect for all modelers.

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MarkOliva

Sadly, I have to agree with those who see the magazines having lost the focus. Freelance RRs still are popular, but the magazines have forgotten to write much to serve us. They've gone overboard on prototyping and therefore produce ever fewer articles I find useful.

Now this could become an interesting can of worms! The terms DCC or RTR rolling stock, or even dominos could be substituted for "Freelance RR's" in your statement above, and it would still work.

Question is, then, are the mags driving, or just reporting, trends in the hobby? For the record, I feel their role is to report - period! - and let you decide (Oh wait, I think someone's using that one already.)

[timthechef]

I don't think that free lanced railroads are dead, even in the magazines I've seen many fictonal branch lines modeled to be branches off of real rail roads. I'm currently building my first model railroad and it is a fictional branch line in a fictional town branching off the B&O in the 1920's. I'm researching for proto typical accuracy of the equiptment and scenery for the era and area (western Maryland) to lend authenticity to my layout but still have the freedom of creating my own town. I'm enjoying learning about the time period and what people went through to get things done in what is considered "a simpler time". It seems that everything was much harder and took a lot more work . I don't think that free lancing will ever be dead because very few of us have the room to build a exact replica of an existing rail road.

[Anonymous]

I dont think Freelance is dead at all.

I base my road on the B and O at the sea port to a WM interchange and also a C and O interchange. The rivet counters probably will say that not good. However, I do try to keep my equiptment consistent and industries dependant on each other among the 3 roads.

There is a planned spot for Thomas the tank engine. For the kids you see.

The MR tries to keep new products and reviews as well as fine articles abound. If there was no MR, the hobby would not be as strong as it has been. If the MR team wrote a articale based on the forum, the size will increase to a phone book and the cost will be more expensive than a walthers catalog. It is good to see healthy discussion on this thread.

Good Luck all.

Lee

[CBQ_Guy]

All,

Robbie wrote a whole bunch of stuff taking a superior sounding position IMO, but in the end it all really just comes down to do whatever you like - one persons preferences aren't another's preferences, standards, or likes.

There are a couple statements he made I thought would be fun to respond to, though...please indulge me.

<There need be no fear or loathing of prototype modeling.>

I don't know where fear would come in, Never thought of model railroading as something scary. Loathing is probably felt by people who think a certain way of enjoying the hobby is being forced down their throats, as many obviously do, whether one agrees or not..
...........................................................
<For a lot of modelers, working toward greater prototype accuracy INCREASES hobby enjoyment>

And for a lot it doesn't.

.........................................................
Rob asks:

<Who looks on the hobbyshop shelf and makes a purchasing decision trying to get the least accurate model possible? >

But then answers:

< It's a philosophical cafeteria where you pick how much accuracy is for you>

So basically it looks to me like he's answered his own question.

Of course, the implication and resulting message of condesencion that only some sort of mental cretin would pick the lesser or least accurate model on purpose comes through loud and clear. Good job, Rob. [Damn good-enoughers!].

...............................................................................
< Most of the operating session stuff printed in major magazines like MR emphasizes fun and comarederie as much as adherence to prototype practice.>

Most of ANYTHING printed in major magazines like MR emphasizes fun and comraderie, or should. It's not the exclusive realm of operating sessions OR adherence to prototype practice.

...............................................................
< I host operating sessions on my layout. It greatly increases my enjoyment and provides entertainment for my friends in the hobby who don't have layouts of their own. I regularly participate in op sessions on other layouts too, and for the same reason>

No problems there. I think others who host operating sessions would whole heartedly agree.

...............................................
<...it's fun if it's done right.>

Whoa, Nellie. Say what?! I think that statement gave more readers than just myself pause, and for obvious reasons.
.................................................
Rob continues on. . .

> They're also a great way to get kids involved; I have a regular operator who's 10 and prototype operation doesn't scare him a bit.>

In the words of former president Ronald Regan, "There you go again." Start out by saying something no one objects to or should have a problem with, then WHAM, another shot to those who don't do it the way YOU do. Again, I didn't think this hobby is supposed to be scary. If it is to some, it may be advisable to find another hobby.

................................................................
> Prototype modelers tend to adopt higher modeling standards. As a result, their models tend to be of higher average quality than those of hobbyists as a whole and are more presentable in photos. The best looking, best running layouts I encounter on layout tours thus tend to be the products of those with a commitment to represent the prototype, including pure proto layouts like Ted York's Cajon Pass and freelanced but proto inspired layouts like Lee Nicholas' Utah Colorado Western. They're often also more active modelers and produce more that they can submit to the magazines. >

GAWD, what more can I say? The above is literally dripping with an air of condesencion, judgementalism, even loathing for any participant in the hobby who would be such a low life form to even think of doing things differently than Rob and company, and going against THEIR STANDARDS. Not to mention the usual and ubiquitous re-enforcement of the MR dominant in-group clique of those who've been published, who quickly come to each others defense and shameful promotion, as I've read SO many times over and over on various lists and forums over the past few years, even in the mag itself. Talk about a good old boy network!

............................................................................
<Magazines publish what is submitted to them. If they aren't featuring as much freelanced modeling couldn't it be because they're receiving less of it?>

Puhleeze! Now there's a tired cliche we've all read before ad nauseum. If it were true, why do the magazines have staff writers or or even editorials? They wouldn't be needed if, as Robbie is seeming to imply, the magazines would cease to exist if no one sent them anything to print. Not to mention complaints I have read about authors who either a.} can't get published or b.) have their article(s) purchased by a publication, only to never be printed.

..................................................................
>The greater availability of high quality models is allowing modelers with higher standards to move more into the ranks of proto representation (more accuracy can be had with less work, thus it's an attractive option); many of those guys used to be freelancers.<

Well good for them, I'm glad they're doing what makes them happy. Of course since they live on a higher plane with a higer standard then the rest of us mere mortals, I'm not surprised they are the only ones who have attained true enjoyment and enlightment. I don't know what being a former free-lancer has to with it, though. Or was that just a declarative statement?

.............................................................................
>Apply the emotion behind the anti-prototype stance to other magazines. What if an auto restoration magazine decided that the average reader was put off by features on high quality work and discontinued them in favor of stories on cousin Bob's clapped out Plymouth Duster that's on blocks.<

Hmmmm. I had the thought after reading this that it shouldn't matter WHAT the magazine thought they should be favoring as story types to print, since according to you, they can only print what they are receiving. But I won't mention that thought.

..................................................................................
>Last, we prototype modelers really don't care what you do on your own layout. Just have fun!>

Yeah, Rob, that's real obvious after you wrote at length about how doing what YOU and your buds do on your own layouts is better than what anyone else may be doing. Geez!

Well, writing this has been fun for ME, but now it's time for my nap!

[wp8thsub]

Wow, since I've apparently torqued off some fellow modelers, I figure why stop now when I'm on a roll? Seriously Paul, Fred (and everybody else I offended who hasn't sounded off) I'm not on some opposite side of the hobby from y'all.

Let's try again:

I personally see a greater proportion of article-worthy proto-based layouts these days compared to the past. I think a lot of the freelancers who previously produced nice layouts would have been doing more prototype modeling back then if today's array of products were available to make that job easier. Many of the modelers I encounter these days say that's why they're doing proto modeling now. It may not be a popular trend for people who dislike prototype modeling but I imagine it accounts for much of the dearth of mostly "pure" freelancing in the model press.

The above is in no way intended as a slam against freelancers, but I think it's a valid observation.

As was stated earlier in this thread, there really isn't such a thing as a purely prototype layout. There also can't be a 100% freelance layout. To create a model railroad, you still have to use SOMETHING from the real world, like flanged wheels rolling on rails and so on. We're all on a continuum somewhere in the middle, probably closer together than most of us realize.

And yes, Paul, I think there IS fear of prototype modeling out there. There are modelers who passionatley believe that anyone who is trying to get closer to the prototype on his own railroad is a threat to everybody else being able to have a good time. I'll give you an example...

I ran into this guy at a local hobby shop. He knew I was a WP fan and asked how many of these new Brand X WP boxcars I was going to be taking home. I said probably none because of inaccuracies with the doors and ladders, since I'm trying to get most of my home road equipment to match photographs. He was polite to my face, but next thing I hear I've become Public Enemy #1 down at the club because I'm trying to keep everybody from having fun. Pretty silly because he was specifically asking for my opinion on what I would purchase. One of my operators belonged to the club and said the guy frequently recounted just what a killjoy I was to those who would listen, as if I was trying to shut his hobby down.

I am VERY critical of my own work, and enjoy the challenge of pushing my personal standards to new levels. The same is probably true for most prototype modelers. I really, absolutely, positively do not care what you do with your own hobby time or money. The more of us there are in the hobby, the more easily our suppliers will stay in business. More is better, regardless of philosophy. It never fails that when a prototype modeler states that he and others of like mind enjoy their hobby, there will always be a visceral response that such a statement implies that we think we're the only ones who are able to do so.

"Whoa, Nellie. Say what?! I think that statement [that op sessions are fun if "done right"] gave more readers than just myself pause, and for obvious reasons."

Oh, for cryin' out loud. "Done right" to me means that we have a good time and make the sessions completely non-stressful. Obviously since I'm such an elitist snot, it must mean that "done right" implies I shove my more-prototype-than-thou philosophy down everybody's throat and force them to toe the line or else.

[fischey]

TextText My own problem is that I belong to a modular group, which means that we must compromise. What are achieving is a look and feel of a prototypical environment on the layout that lends credibility to the trains that travel through. Although our group hasn't achieved the very optimum "look and feel", we are reasonably happy with it. But for discussion, I would like to point out a true inspiration.

The Midwest Modular group is a good example of the dialog of prototype modelling vs. freelancing. (The Midwest Group was published in MR a few years back and every now and then you see a pic in Trackside photos or whatever). This sectional layout (maybe it's modular but that's not the point) clearly sets the stage for realistic railroading in the Midwest. The grain elevators, the type of topography, the minor buildings, the signage-- all of it looks like Missouri or somewhere in the upper Mississippi drainage. Doesn't matter what RR the trains are-- the sense of realism is conveyed when they are operated in a believable way, such as a 50's streamliner being seen with a 50's freight, sharing a mainline that would be shared by the depicted roads. It's easy to jump to the conclusion that what you are witnessing is shared running rights, if you happen to see an ICG train whip by a Missouri Pacific.

The point? We're getting bogged by the terms, "prototype" vs. "freelance". Look at it from these two points: Believability and Realism. The Midwest group's modules are clearly freelanced but convey the exact feeling of "being there" in the Midwest on a summer day, and your presence is projected into the scene. Your senses tell you it's "believable". The trains convey "prototype" as they follow a given carrier (at least in the published shots), and your education in the hobby tells you that you are seeing a slice of "history" or a realistic "prototype". The experience is admirably completed.

What the best freelance and prototype modeler does, is to set the stage for the experience of believability and realism. The viewer's mind takes care of the rest, and the viewer's reaction in "WOW" terms, is the affirmation of success in the project. The more "wow" you get, the better your project has achieved the goal. Even if it is a lunar railway.

Delight and humor can turn the experience all the richer, whether in the prototypical or freelance "environment." In the prototype layout, a viewer is going to delight in seeing a detail such as the right gas station, with the right cars for the era, the right ads plastered on the wall, in the right location, in the right historical period. Example: A Sinclair station along a UP line near Cheyenne, Wyoming, in 1966. A little humor could be tossed in by creating a repair scene with a frustrated vacationing family waiting for the station wagon to have a new fanbelt installed, and the mechanic is found asleep out back. Put a New Jersey license plate on the car for even more effect.

In the freelance, the delight and humor is there allright, just look at John Allen's Dinosaur switcher. More examples abound.

Both are effective, both are rewarding to build and show, to the extreme. But you know what? Unless you faithfully duplicated a photograph from 1966, even the prototype gas station scene in Cheyenne would have to have been "freelanced", or creatively handled, in some way. Let the show begin.

So Have Fun and get out there & do some freelancing, no matter how accurate you get doing it.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wp8thsub


I think a lot of the freelancers who previously produced nice layouts would have been doing more prototype modeling back then if today's array of products were available to make that job easier. Many of the modelers I encounter these days say that's why they're doing proto modeling now. It may not be a popular trend for people who dislike prototype modeling but I imagine it accounts for much of the dearth of mostly "pure" freelancing in the model press.

The above is in no way intended as a slam against freelancers, but I think it's a valid observation.

As was stated earlier in this thread, there really isn't such a thing as a purely prototype layout. There also can't be a 100% freelance layout. To create a model railroad, you still have to use SOMETHING from the real world, like flanged wheels rolling on rails and so on. We're all on a continuum somewhere in the middle, probably closer together than most of us realize.

And yes, Paul, I think there IS fear of prototype modeling out there. There are modelers who passionatley believe that anyone who is trying to get closer to the prototype on his own railroad is a threat to everybody else being able to have a good time. ....

Oh, for cryin' out loud. "Done right" to me means that we have a good time and make the sessions completely non-stressful. Obviously since I'm such an elitist snot, it must mean that "done right" implies I shove my more-prototype-than-thou philosophy down everybody's throat and force them to toe the line or else.

Western Pacific Man, just a few quick thoughts on your posting.

First, I agree we have to have "definitions" regerding "freelanced" or "prototypical" or whatever, so we know more or less where the layout ideas originated.

Second, I disagree with your comment about more modelers would do prototype if more product was availible. Did I miss something here? EVERYTHING being produced in the last 50 years was based on Prototype carriers, there has always been tons of stuff to choose from, so your aurgument doesnt hold water I'm afraid.

Thirdly, an I think this is the biggest issue. The "fear" of prototyping is also untrue, I would probably say its more of an "indifference" to prototyping. Most of us are space, time, budget, and spousaly challeged and are restricted as to how deep we can research a layout. Also most simply DO NOT want to model so precisly or specifically. Theres nothing wrong with that either, to most this is a hobby, something to do after the dishes are washed and before putting the kids to bed. It simply is not a priority to be so specific. There are those like yourself that strive to be historically correct and thats cool, but I think you are misreading most of the hobbiest out there. Like me, they do not belong to a club or other orginized operating group. To them its all about fun, not precision. thats why there were so many frelanced responces to this post.

And Finally, I think instead of saying "done right" if you had said "done well" there would have been less angry responces. I like to think my kitbashed hacksawed locos are done pretty damn nice, but I would never call them "done right" because that defines a right way and a wrong way, and I firmly believe there is no wrong way to kitbash a loco if your happy with the end result.

Also you mentioned something about old cars...

>What if an auto restoration magazine decided that the average reader was put off by features on high quality work and discontinued them in favor of stories on cousin Bob's clapped out Plymouth Duster that's on blocks.<

Well I'm into narrow gauge and if you ever seen the current dirty condition of most K-36's on the Cumbres and Toltec line, or seen the beat up steamers operating in Peru or Cuba, or seen the beat up backwoods locos modeled on most narrow guage lines, you'de know that those loco's ARE the equivalent of "cousins Bob's clapped out Plymouth Duster that's on blocks" to us these beat up dirty old loco's are a things of pure beauty and a joy to model...To each his own I guess, Eh?

[FJ and G]

I agree with Rob. The hobby is big enough for everyone's interests. If the magazines get a good layout -- freelanced or otherwise -- it will get published. A great layout will rest on its merits, regardless of label.

[Anonymous]

I have been working for the past few years on and off, struggling with this dilemma. Prototype modeling or freelance.

The problem comes with prototype modeling of my favorite (defunct) line is that i simply don't have the space or the funds to do as i wish, even with compression. And the fact that the traction model industry is lacking and way to expensive for what exists IMO. And i am no scratchbuilder of equipment.. structures fine.... equipment, no.

But with freelance, the problem becomes, how much freelance? I dunno if my imagination and sense of creativity is developed enough.

I have been working more and more with planning a line historically influenced off my prototype, yet freelanced for my own space, time, and budget constraints.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wp8thsub

Wow, since I've apparently torqued off some fellow modelers, I figure why stop now when I'm on a roll? Seriously Paul, Fred (and everybody else I offended who hasn't sounded off) I'm not on some opposite side of the hobby from y'all.

[b]FRED SAYS HE DON'T CARE WHAT YOU GOT TO SAY.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by flee307

QUOTE: Originally posted by wp8thsub

Wow, since I've apparently torqued off some fellow modelers, I figure why stop now when I'm on a roll? Seriously Paul, Fred (and everybody else I offended who hasn't sounded off) I'm not on some opposite side of the hobby from y'all.

[b]FRED SAYS HE DON'T CARE WHAT YOU GOT TO SAY.

Flee-man,

Chill dude....I think Western Pacific guy is saying he's on our side, just coming from a different viewpoint and thats cool. Cant we all just get along?

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by anthonyrio

I have been working for the past few years on and off, struggling with this dilemma. Prototype modeling or freelance.

The problem comes with prototype modeling of my favorite (defunct) line is that i simply don't have the space or the funds to do as i wish, even with compression. And the fact that the traction model industry is lacking and way to expensive for what exists IMO. And i am no scratchbuilder of equipment.. structures fine.... equipment, no.

But with freelance, the problem becomes, how much freelance? I dunno if my imagination and sense of creativity is developed enough.

I have been working more and more with planning a line historically influenced off my prototype, yet freelanced for my own space, time, and budget constraints.

AntonyRio

Why not use the prototype as a basis for your freelance? That way you can use whats commercially avilable, paint it to match the prototype and use commercail structures the same way. Use the existing tools and supplies to as closely match your carrier without getting slavi***o replicating it exactly, you might be surprised how close you can get to the original.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

QUOTE: Originally posted by flee307

QUOTE: Originally posted by wp8thsub

Wow, since I've apparently torqued off some fellow modelers, I figure why stop now when I'm on a roll? Seriously Paul, Fred (and everybody else I offended who hasn't sounded off) I'm not on some opposite side of the hobby from y'all.

FRED SAYS HE DON'T CARE WHAT YOU GOT TO SAY.

Flee-man,

Chill dude....I think Western Pacific guy is saying he's on our side, just coming from a different viewpoint and thats cool. Cant we all just get along?

[b] FRED NO REALLY MAD. Fred likes a good fight and loves to argue with close minded people. It's fun. Esp with people who think the universe revolves around them and any other veiwpoint is wrong. They say the funniest things if pressed, like they are the best modeler ever and they stand by it, or Walmart is t5he best thing that ever happened. FRED

[wp8thsub]

"I think Western Pacific guy is saying he's on our side, just coming from a different viewpoint..."

Exactly. Thank you.

"... I disagree with your comment about more modelers would do prototype if more product was availible. Did I miss something here?"

Maybe. As you said, every model produced has some prototype basis. What I'm referring to is the fairly recent proliferation of very accurate models that allows those who choose to do so to medel a greater variety of specific stuff without much effort. When I started modeling the WP in the 1980s, most of the equipment I was modeling had to be kitbashed and re-detailed to match photos. Most of that effort is no longer necessary.

"The "fear" of prototyping is also untrue, I would probably say its more of an "indifference" to prototyping."

Plenty of indifference to be sure, but I've encountered fear. There is a very small but often vocal minority who react to anyone who's doing more than entry level modeling with a palpable fear that the very existence of such modelers will somehow destroy their hobby. I've heard more than one such individual express out and out fear that he will be driven out of the hobby and have to do something else just because I or some other prototype modeler (or even a freelancer who talks about raising his own standards) was out there. I won't pretend to understand why.

"...but I think you are misreading most of the hobbiest out there. ... To them its all about fun, not precision."

I agree that's where most modelers are coming from. I hope I'm not misreading my fellow modelers. My comments about the direction some freelancers are taking toward proto modeling is based on talking with modelers I personally know. I include in this trend people who still model freelanced railroads but who are moving toward greater accuracy in detailing their layouts, freight cars, etc. Most modelers still don't care and that's OK.

"And Finally, I think instead of saying "done right" if you had said "done well" there would have been less angry responces."

Again, maybe so, but it could still be just as possible for someone to misread that line if they were so inclined. "Done right" is a people issue more than a modeling issue in this context. A number of operating layouts are positively no fun at all due to the stress the layout owners force upon the crews.

"loco's (like Colorado narrow gauge, Central American steam, etc.) ARE the equivalent of "cousins Bob's clapped out Plymouth Duster that's on blocks."

Looks like I blew that analogy to some extent. I also model Colorado narrow gauge D&RGW/RGS, so I know what you're talking about in modeling weathered equipment. One of my favorite models is my after-the-wreck RGS 455 rebuild. The model equivalent of the car on blocks is the layout that is in a dirty, unkempt space, that doesn't run because the trackwork isn't done well and otherwise show every indication that the builder doesn't care.

[Anonymous]

“Pure”? What if you model a short line between two terminals named after real towns with fictional towns in between and a connection (interchange) with a real railroad. My railroad runs between Alpine and Terlingua Texas. Terlingua never had a rail connection, Alpine was on an S.P. sub main. My towns do not reflex the details of the two prototype towns. On my railroad Jacqueline Heights and Cat Pause lie in between and they are fictional. Is that “Pure Free Lance”? Just wondering.
JackB

[sparkingbolt]

Wow! A bunch of guys brave enough to freelance. Cool! I am sorta freelancing and following prototype, but only as far as the two work together. Another way to put it is I'm freelancing and adding the features of the prototype so as to keep it believable, and include pieces of my hometown that I want to see, as I want to see it. It's my railroad!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dknelson

I see plenty of free lanced layouts on layout tours but not so many in the magazines, which might tell us more about magazine editors than about what modelers are really doing .
dave nelson

I would think that because prototype modeling takes a different approach to modeling "discipline," they are easier to write about in magazines, as it would be easier to research and make references to real historical events and places. Free-lance, "fantasy" railroads are great, a lot of fun, but in my opinion don't always have the "epic" impact that prototype modeling does. If I buy a MR mag, I always prefer projects that attempt to do the "real" thing because it inspires me to do the same, or at the very least inspires me to "go the distance." When I see the "free-lance" projects, I can admire the uniqueness of them, but unless the modeler is a craftsman like John Allen, I'm not going to be so inspired to do my own thing.

Free-lance or prototype, my inspiration often comes from those who have taken the patience and time to bring something extraordinary to the hobby using years of experience and talent. That's when I really start drooling. [:p]

Johnny [:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

Whew. Alot of very good thoughts here. Easy on the drawbars please. I see this as a wonderful expresion of creativity. Even John Allen himself has a Dinosaur as a yard Switcher. Yes he was a stickler for detail etc.. but he taught us with that Dino, one can have a bit of fun.

I'm glad you mentioned this because as I gather information and get back into the hobby, one of the most important things I want to maintain is my sense of humor. I like prototyping as a opportunity to learn more about realism, i like free-lancing to maintain my sense of creativity, but by all means, I always want to bind it all together with a laugh at the end of the day. Otherwise, it's not going to be worth it for me!

I was thinking about the things I would like to model, and for me, there has to be some funny things going on whatever I should chose. Perhaps a proto-freelance railroad with some funny scenes going on? What would happen if all the animals were released from the local zoo, for example? Or maybe there should be a HO scale axe-murderer loose in the area... I mean... all sorts of things could happen in a small layout town... [:o)]

johnny

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith
AntonyRio

Why not use the prototype as a basis for your freelance? That way you can use whats commercially avilable, paint it to match the prototype and use commercail structures the same way. Use the existing tools and supplies to as closely match your carrier without getting slavi***o replicating it exactly, you might be surprised how close you can get to the original.

I've thought along those lines in the past, but my "line of choice" has always been the defunct Chicago Aurora and Elgin... an interurban line that has been defunct for some 40+ years. My layout that i am planning will approximatly follow the same geographical and societal influences yet be set closer to the modern day.. basically what if a line, with the same approximate history of the CAE had survived as a suburban freight hauler in an area like chicago where transfer service is king? Obviously, I will need to embelish some things and downplay others to "make it work" but i am finding myself enjoying the process thus far.. simply because I am not starting with grid paper and scale rule in hand. I am starting with some story writing... basically creating the history of the line to show how it got to where it is when I model it. I dare say that by the time I'm done, that there will be little difference in "depth" between a real life proto-type and my line.

[vsmith]

Sounds cool, If I ever have the space I would like to model a "what if" of the Pacific Electric in Los Angeles if it had survived to present day, but that remains a long way off for me.

[Anonymous]

I sure hope not! I'd hate to have to quit going to the basement. There is nothing 'wrong' with having a mythical railroad layout altho' I am not crazy about some of the whimsical names used. Having a model of an actual railroad means stretching the imagination to a degree also. Who models the complete home engine and car facilities 100%? If you do, where did you find the room? Model railroading should be FUN, or why have it for a hobby?

[Jetrock]

It seems like one of the arguments of freelancers is the ease of getting "off-the-shelf" equipment for prorotype roads--but what about all those little short lines for which there are few or no available models? I model the Sacramento Northern, and while there are a few models available, they are often hard to find or extremely expensive brass imports.

I model SN because I enjoy the historical research as much as the modeling--it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I've always been a history freak and finding out obscure historical details is a game for me, like solving a mystery. I also like the town where I live and enjoy learning more about how it looked in the past.

But I don't have unlimited funds, and don't want to drop $400 on an exact brass copy of the GE electrics or Niles interurban cars, etcetera.

So I add the freelance element. I'll build the $29 Red Ball GE steeplecab kit and detail it like an SN steeplecab, even though SN didn't have any of that light tonnage. I'll hack up a $10 Bachmann Brill trolley to vaguely resemble a PG&E streetcar, even though it has the wrong number of windows. If it looks close enough to look good, that's fine for me--and with the money I save I can buy more rolling stock, or research books, or I could buy food or something unimportant like that.

I'll even buy the Athearn SN 40-foot steel boxcar, even though SN never owned any, because it's got the right roadname on it, and I can buy it off the shelf, and if I park it in front of a warehouse on my layout it won't explode. I can even run my "Sacramento Belt Line" boxcar next to it, even though there were never cars labeled for the Sacramento Belt Line--the car was formerly owned by a model railroader who built a semi-free-lanced layout based on the SN (named the SBL), and custom-decaled this model for it! I figure it got switched onto the layout from an alternate dimension. Personally I think that's fantastic--in its own way, as funny as a dinosaur switcher.

And, as I mentioned before, I'm playing a little bit with the history of the "real" SN so I can run streetcars alongside early diesels, even though it didn't happen that way in the real world. Because it's fun, and I want it that way--but I still get a kick out of prototype research.

The rivet-counters out there will be very aggravated by this, and the freelance advocates may scoff at why I even bother mentioning such fiddly details. I like being somewhere in between, and while I enjoy being true to the prototype I see no reason to be a slave to it.

Nobody here has to own anyone else's layout--in fact, you sure as heck can't have mine!! It'd be boring if we all built layouts the same way.

[Anonymous]

As an Aussie who not only prefers to model U.S.prototype in the equipment sense, and also U.S. landscape, I would hope I'm not alone in feeling that, in creating my own world of ficticious towns, cities and railroad companies I am developing a unique environment for creativity, both operationally and visually. As I trained as a fine artist I'm fully aware of the importance of familialiarity in the visual senses, but there are times when creativity can and indeed must rule, in order to express the overall idea. May the freelancers and the reality purists work together to maintain a harmonious balance that this hobby has always pertained to offer. Long live model railroading!

[preceng]

What is more fun when you are creating your own mini railroad ... than creating your own railroad? As the CEO of the now great B&M RR (Named after my wife and daughter), I have been able to create every detail of the railroad the way I WANT THEM My wife says I have control issues...but not on my line...not in my basement where I am king. Andrew Carnegie move over. Hail th mighty B&M (which occasionally stands for "female dog & Moan").

I have the greatest respect for those of us who model a prototype down to the last lavatory sign. I love viewing these lines in MRR, etc. I also enjoy having those other lines use the B&M rails on a regular basis, although they pay dearly (insert sinister laugh).

Thanks for the grins guys and gals.

[eastcoast]

[^]

Good morning to all
In this great world of ours, NOTHING IS DEAD UNLESS YOU FEEL IT IS.
My miniature world of EAST COAST RAILWAYS is as fictional as it gets.
I mainly run Amtrak and CSX but , my railroad has competing corporations
trying to out-do each other, just like real life. I run 3 tracks(mainlines) in a bedroom size area and I love it. I do agree that there needs to be a story to go with your world or you will find some aimless boredom with it. Like many others, the EAST COAST RAILWAYS is far from complete and is always evolving with a new plot or new construction, and its all about FUN. [^]

[Anonymous]

I model a fictious prototype: My HO Scale Thomasville Railroad that runs from the town of Thomasville, Pennsylvania, and into Pittsburgh, Parts of West Virginia, Virginia, and Ohio. Unfortunately, due to space limitations (and having both, an HO Scale Layout and an N Scale Layout) I was restrictd to 4'-0" X 8'-0" on my HO Scale one, while the N scale one is 3' X 5', and based on the Thomasville Railroad's Coal Fork Branch (No way related, but somewhat based on ideas from Tony Koester's AM Extension) that runs from the town of Traxington PA. Acros the Mason-Dixon Line, and through West Virginia's rich coal country. You can tell its coal country whenever the amount of hoppers outnumber boxcars five to one...

PS: Mr. Sperandeo, if you are reading this note, how do I go about submitting an article to you guys for publishing in MR? Just wondering...

Tom Pearce
Modeling the Thomasville Railroad in HO and N Scale.

[Hawks05]

i don't know how old this thread is but i'm just starting and there are a few things i want to do. like i want to model the area in which i live but we only have 1 line run through the whole county so that wouldn't be fun. i want to model Minneapolis/St. Paul but i never get up there to look at anything so i think i may just create something of my own. try my luck at creating my own railroad. i'll get back to all of you on what i come up with or decide to model in the end.

[ErnieC]

There is a certain snob appeal in the current prototype modeling mania. Problem is it's too confining of one's creativity and of the wide variety of interests a prototype enthusiast may acquire. I'm very interested in the Ma & Pa but don't model it as it did not run milk, mail, thru freights or mixed trains (after 1945). Nor do I have the 40 hours a week to scratch build all the structures that would be needed. Protofreelancing requires a considerable knowledge of the industry and it's environs and gives one room for the creative opportunity to build scenes that are at least composites and at best places that could exist because they have that 'true to life' feel. This hobby is an art form when we explore it's potential. Now if I only had the skill to create what I can imagine!

[Hawks05]

i came up with Loneview as my town so far. i'm going to get like 1-2 undecorated locos and give them a paint scheme of my own probably but for now i'll stick with railroads that already exist. but they will run on a made up town and stuff. just have to wait till i have more money to get undecorated locos, then the Western Wisconsin Railroad will be in business.

[Anonymous]

I don't think they're dead. I currently model a fictious prototype, which I call the Thomasville Railroad Company. If it were real, it would have territory throughout Pittsburgh, the rest of Pennsylvania, and parts of West Virginia, Virginia, New York State, and Ohio.

I am satisfied with my decision no matter which way I look at it. My fictious road interchanges with the Pennsylvania near Thomasville (where the road's offices are located), in Traxington off the Coal Fork Branch, the Baltimore and Ohio at Summit, Pa, and the Virginian and Ohio off the same line near Coal Gap, WV. Unlike the Pennsy whose steam locomotives were retired inj the early 50's, my road's steam continues and will run until 1965 and Passenger Service continues to run smoothly and turn a profit.

Despite this, due to lack of room, I am restricted to 3' X 5' right now, but as soon as I get the room (Or a building of my own) I will have quite a bit of my empire built. But I guess that has to wait until the distant future.

To Mr. Sperandeo: I do have a question for you: How do I submit an article for publication in Model Railroader?

Tom Pearce
Modeling the Thomasville Railroad Coal Fork Branch, Circa Spring of 1952.

[Anonymous]

I've been doing my own fictional shortline, the Hudson Valley Northern for quite a few years now. While operation is loosly based on D&H practices, the back story and equipment selection has been all HVN.

I'll be the first to admit that going freelance can appear to be easyas you're not confined to any certain equipment limitations, coming up with some of the more realistic details can be very hard to do. An example would be the Alco FA's I currently run...for detail purposes they are ex-NYC units. Using this thought process is not perhaps pure, but it does give me a starting point and helps with the back story of the HVN.

Recently the HVN management decided to buy some new power as the FA's are beginning to need more shop time due to wear and spare part issues. They have decided on a pair of new GP40-2's.

We're all in this hobby for fun. And while some of us find it writing fictional histories and running our models through fictional towns, others enjoy digging through actual history to find what a particular locomotive looked like on a certain day during a certain year.

Is either person enjoying the hobby any less?

[Hawks05]

i think with mine i'll probably use actual railroads like CSX, BN, UP, and CN depending on what i get but i'll maybe decorate a few unpainted cars to have like certain industries on them. i'm going to have a Brewing Company, Grain company, and maybe a steel plant. like a industrial steel place (large bulk tanks for milk and liquids and such).

should be cool. i need to come up with a back story for Loneview.

[Anonymous]

Well, I consider myself to be a free lancer even though I model a long gone fallen flag. My layout has no real name yet and will probably never have a specific locale. That eliminates the need to be picky about the types of plant life that inhabits the area. As far as the railroad company goes I live 30' from the UP main line and have had enough of looking at yellow and gray especially on a locomotive like the 40T-2's. So I saved the bankrupt Rock Island. I came up with a brand new paint sceme(darker blue and white with red pinstripes and of course the big R) bought out the UP and repainted their SD90mac's.

There is so much freedom involved in such freelancing that I think that purists consider it beneath them. I have even been refused service at a local hobby shop because I painted a Kato 90mac blue and white and slapped a big R on the sides and boy would he be offended when if he knew I cut up an Athearn Dash 9 and made a C44-9WB cabless.

So no I don't think it is dead just shunned by the purists and considered to be a sore on the buttocks of model railroading. The hobby is there to enjoy not to get an ulcer stressing that the shade of paint is not prototypical.

Thanks,
Jeremy

[Anonymous]

I do mostly garden railroading, and there isn't much besides freelanced there it seems.
Some "quasi"-prototypical and some quite prototypical, but mostly freelanced.
Like this one
http://home.earthlink.net/~ggage/
The "Humbug & Honeydew"

[vsmith]

Hagan75,

Way Cool website....Those are awesome models, is the layout indoors or outdoors?

I'm also doing 1/2" scale G gauge (indoors) and I know exactly what you mean about the almost inevitability of freelancing in large scale. Read some of my rants on the Garden RR forum about the poor selection of G guage products out there.

Some of these HO guys are so spoiled by the fact that they can get any locomotive ever made from 10 different manufacturers in 10 different roadnames and 10 different paint schemes, they should try large scale where you can choose from 1 manufacturer and whatever locomotive and whatever roadnames that maker decides to produce.

They'd wet their 'depend's'...

[ndbprr]

I think one of the main reasons for less Pure freelanced is the fidelity to prototype of equipment offered today. Even ten years ago you made something and slapped every roadname conceivable on it whether it existed or not. If you visit the railroad sim web sites you see that today. Veranda turbines decorated for every railroad under the sun as an example including Coca Cola. Modelers who knew enough that Virginian hoppers were black weren't going to settle for silver ones and were forced to have private roads because of lack of resources for their favorite railroad. Today you can pretty much get something in the railroad you want, in the detail you want and in the price range you want that will adquately duplicate that railroad. Will we ever have Baldwin Centipedes or center cab transfer engines? Probably not unless I win the lottery but can I find all kinds of stuff for PRR that didn't even exist last year. You bet. So my Allegheny Railroad is fast taking a back seat to the PRR stuff I am able to get. Will I abandon the ARR? It is no longer modeled as trackwork. It has been reduced to trackage rights on the PRR. Will it be phased out? I can see that possibility due to the amount of equipment that can be on the railroad at any given time. Will it happen? Ask me in ten years.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Way Cool website....Those are awesome models, is the layout indoors or outdoors?

It's outdoors, but that is not mine just one of my favourites.
Mine is called BRCS RR and so far the track is in planning [xx(]
But when the snow dissapears sometime next year, I will be ready with the track [:D]

[NevinW]

I think they are much less common. I have modeled "free-lanced" model railroads in the past, but as I have progressed, modeling a specific time and place with relatively prototypical equipment has appealed more to me. My current railroad depicts the B&O and the WM on the Sheepskin route through Morgantown West Virginia. Researching and building this layout has been the most fun of any I have built. Certainly, all of the new much improved models have made this kind of prototypical modeling feasible. The time spent just trying to get the models to work now can be spent researching and scratching building. Personally, as far as the magazines go, I would much rather see a model railroad that depicts real railroads than a fantasy railroad. - Nevin

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hagen75

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Way Cool website....Those are awesome models, is the layout indoors or outdoors?

It's outdoors, but that is not mine just one of my favourites.
Mine is called BRCS RR and so far the track is in planning [xx(]
But when the snow dissapears sometime next year, I will be ready with the track [:D]

Thanks for posting it anyways, i already have a couple of projects in mind from some of the models shown.

[Bikerdad]

First, let me say that the QTRyNN is most definitely freelance. It is so for several reasons, all of which I think pertain to the question, and which may become evident in my response.

An earlier post referred to the two elements of believabiliity and realism. The elements are related, but fortunately for us, they are not in lockstep with one another. However, the linkage itself points to an important tradeoff, a tradeoff where the parameters change from person to person, and even within a person over time. That tradeoff is between creating a level of believability and satisfying one's other desires within the hobby. Internal coherency is one of the key elements to fostering belief, and prototyping, strangely enough, actually makes creating the internal coherency much easier. A prototyped MRR comes complete with a backstory which boosts the believability, which allows one to spend much more time on the "realism" element. The more closely one adheres to the prototype, the stronger the prototype supports the believability. This is especially true when dealing with Non-MRRs. When Joe California sees a MRR of the Southern Pac, UP, or other real lines that operate(d) in California, it establishes a connection, and hence, boosts believability.

Conversely, the farther one goes into freelance, the harder it is to both create the internal consistency, and to establish emotional connections with Joe Public. It CAN be done, but it is more difficult. There even becomes a point where a pure freelance road (aka a Fantasy Road) can more effectively engage Joe Public than does a quasi-proto-lance. This, of course, works best with children, who can connect with Thomas or the Hogwarts Express without any qualms.

This then becomes the tradeoff: the further you go into freelance, the more you can do. However, you also have to work harder to maintain the "believability", because you're trading "realism" for freedom. The prototyper, of course, faces a different tradeoff. The further into protoland he travels, the harder he has to work to establish realism, but the less work on believability he has to do.

Now, the last element goes to human nature. Most of us strive, at some level, to excel. It is a hard, unwelcome truth that "excel" implies standards. Prototypers have it made in this sense for a simple reason: they have what is essentially an objective standard. This standard makes it easier to evaluate their own progress towards excellence, AND to compare their progress to others. Freelancers are handicapped in this sense, which in part explains why prototyping becomes more prevalent the longer a person has been in the hobby. Another element that I believe explains the shift towards prototyping is that "freelancing" is often a cover for "exploring" and figuring out what a person really wants from the hobby. Prototyping allows one to focus, but again, with tradeoffs.

How does this tie into the magazines? Well, the overall aging of the magazine's audience means that they are shifting more and more towards prototyping, and thus, the magazine's, in order to meet their reader's desires, follow suit. Bring more yunguns into the hobby, and you'll see things shift back the other way. Do an article on the DwarvenOrcSmash Railway and you'll thrill the Warhammer guys, but most of the current readers will be less than enthused at an article on super-detailing a rail mounted trebuchet! Only problem is, how many Warhammer guys are going to be reading MR magz?

Grace and peace, BD

[Jetrock]

One thing to keep in mind is that advances in technology have also made things easier for freelancers. With an inkjet printer and some decal paper, anyone can make their own custom roadname decals at home in minimal time, in any color (although only a couple printers print with white ink.) Fonts and custom graphics are child's play to create, allowing freelancers to add unique roadname logos and signage to their rolling stock and stations.

This is leaps and bounds above earlier eras, when custom decals were very expensive and not something one did at home. When I was younger I did have a "freelance" line of sorts--my dad's layout was nominally Southern Pacific, but my part of it was a freelanced short line called IFTCO (Interstate Freight Transportation Company) serving fictional parts of the southern Sierra Nevada region into California, Nevada and Arizona. I hand-painted the logo and roadname onto cars (with the previous roadname painted over) and typed station signs on my dad's typewriter onto cardstock. Primitive, but adequate.

Those of us who model obscure short lines have the best (or worst) of both worlds: we can do research (as I mentioned, I find historical research to be fun in itself) and where the hobby world sells us short (there just isn't much SN stuff out there) we can create custom decals for our own lines and make use of off-the-shelf undecorated rolling stock that fits our needs--even if it isn't exact.

[Anonymous]

Not dead here. In my case, my Grand Valley Railroad is located in northwest Pennsylvania but is a railroad that absolutely never existed in the area. It is a railroad that I always imagined could have been after spending many years in the woods of the locale, deer hunting. It's like I have been there even though it never really existed.

[Dave Vollmer]

I’m a convert. I’m on my fourth layout, and this time I’m “proto-lancing.” I’m doing the PRR in 1956, although it’s a generic stretch of track and a nameless town northeast of Harrisburg. I started with a totally implausible freelanced railroad (I was also just a kid). The next two layouts I built as an adult, and although still freelanced, each one was based more and more on a specific prototype. I finally realized why that was the case and switched to modeling a real railroad. For me, the fun is in researching the prototype and attempting to reproduce it in miniature. One day when space and cash allow, I plan to model the PRR Middle Division from Harrisburg to Altoona as faithfully as possible.

I firmly believe you should do whatever it is in this hobby that makes you happy. If you really enjoy inventing a whole story and history behind your fictional yet plausible railroad, so it! That was my favorite part of freelancing. If you’d rather reproduce an entire subdivision of a Class I, have at it! Heck, even if you want to pull a string of Superliners with a wood-burning 4-4-0, then you should be able to do so without fear of criticism. The only caveat I have is that the more off-the-wall (and farther from mainstream) your layout or interests are, the less company you’re likely to find. The magazines and manufacturers are trying to make money, so will tend to appeal to the more mainstream (and therefore more numerous) modelers.

Have fun!

Dave

[Anonymous]

I'm a free lancer modeler... there's plenty of us out there.

I find it more fun to go free lance because then you don't have to be resricted to a specific quota track plan. I'm sure many will agree with me that it is more fun to have a free lanced layout than a real line.

[jpmorrison]

no free lance are not dead im working on my as we talk

[BRAKIE]

Guys,Regardless if you free lance your railroad name(NOT LAYOUT) it takes as much research has it does a real railroad if it is to be believable..
Guys if you say your railroad is say Kentucky Central and all I see on your layout is the L&N,then brother you are modeling the L&N.Period..Now if I look at your locomotives and see they are lettered for the KC then you are indeed free lancing a railroad.Now if you tell me you are modeling the KC division of the(say) L&N then I well agree with that..

I don't believe for one second that those that model a real railroad is any better then those that model a believable free lance railroad..I say again BOTH NEEDS TO BE RESEARCH IF THEY ARE TO BE BELIEVABLE PERIOD...Not shouting just trying to get the point across.[;)][:D]

Now for those of you that free lance your layout name in order to run every road name under the sun then that is ok to.But please don't tell me you have a free lance railroad..I won't believe it for one second unless I see engines or cars lettered for that road name.

[Hawks05]

valid points Brakie but what if you're like me and are just starting and don't want to repaint locomotives right away. what do you say to that. i plan on freelancing mine but i'm not going to start repainting the brand new CB&Q locomotive i got last weekend just so i can say that my layout is freelanced. to me freelancing is something you made up and isn't part of a real railroad. say i'm planning later down the road to have the West Central Wisconsin Railroad but i'm not repainting anything yet. i have more to worry about than proving to someone that my layout is freelanced. i still need to buy locomotives, rolling stock, make the benchwork, wire everything, lay track, do scenery, and many other things.

i'm not trying to sound rude or anything. i'm just saying new people like me have bigger things to worry about than proving our railroad is freelanced. i, like many others, have to learn other skills more important than painting stuff before we can actually make our own railroad.

thats just me though. i'm not trying to be rude either.

[BRAKIE]

Hawks,No problem..I just get so wrap up in discussing freelancing I sometimes forget about the new guys like you...Of course that also applies to layout designing as well as prototypical operation...Those that know me jokingly call me Tony Koester Jr. when it comes to freelancing,layout designing and prototypical operations..

[Anonymous]

As a rivet counter, I have to say it's my observation that the term "freelancing" means, in the overwheming majority of cases, "I'll run whatever I want in whatever setting I want with whatever track design I want." Precious little research goes into the majority of "freelance" layouts.

Now, if that's what you want to do, that's fine. It's America, after all. But you aren't really MODELLING a RAILROAD if your layout consists of a hodgepodge of locomotives and cars from different eras running in circles through random scenery.

It'd be better defined as "playing with trains."

[eastcoast]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Guys,Regardless if you free lance your railroad name(NOT LAYOUT) it takes as much research has it does a real railroad if it is to be believable..
Guys if you say your railroad is say Kentucky Central and all I see on your layout is the L&N,then brother you are modeling the L&N.Period..Now if I look at your locomotives and see they are lettered for the KC then you are indeed free lancing a railroad.Now if you tell me you are modeling the KC division of the(say) L&N then I well agree with that..

I don't believe for one second that those that model a real railroad is any better then those that model a believable free lance railroad..I say again BOTH NEEDS TO BE RESEARCH IF THEY ARE TO BE BELIEVABLE PERIOD...Not shouting just trying to get the point across.[;)][:D]

Now for those of you that free lance your layout name in order to run every road name under the sun then that is ok to.But please don't tell me you have a free lance railroad..I won't believe it for one second unless I see engines or cars lettered for that road name.

[}:)]
You sell an interesting point here.
I do have a very broad freelanced area I model,the EASTERN COASTLINE,
but to overcome it from looking like an AMTRAK OR CSX ,ETC., I custom
made my own personal decals of my roadname to personalize all new
equipment I purchased. Now, freight lines haul ALL ROADNAMES from
everywhere and then send them back to origin. I do this too, it adds the
realism to the models. So, in direct quote to you, yes, research has to be
done to achieve the desired effect. But, It is still MY FREELANCE railroad.
[:p]
ken_ecr

[Anonymous]

[:0]Free-lanced model railroads are definitely not dead. I'm creating a totally fictitious railroad because, unlike modeling prototypes, you have the freedom of planning something unique and which suits your interests and tastes. I've nothing against modelers who strive to re-create prototypically-correct (or as correct as possible) layouts--but there will always been room for both. [:D]

[Hawks05]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ACL Fan

As a rivet counter, I have to say it's my observation that the term "freelancing" means, in the overwheming majority of cases, "I'll run whatever I want in whatever setting I want with whatever track design I want." Precious little research goes into the majority of "freelance" layouts.

Now, if that's what you want to do, that's fine. It's America, after all. But you aren't really MODELLING a RAILROAD if your layout consists of a hodgepodge of locomotives and cars from different eras running in circles through random scenery.

It'd be better defined as "playing with trains."

i'm kind of like that. i mean i'm going to try and stick to 3 different railroads (BN, CB&Q, and CNW) but if i see a locomotive i really like (like the Southern Pacific schemes) i'll maybe buy it and run. i'm going to come up with my own track plans then after i get going i'm going to come up with a back story for it and make it my own railroad down the road with my own railroad company and stuff.

[Anonymous]

The enjoyment for me is creating the town and the layout with the train within the town. And of course its functional use as if it were real. My trains have sat in a box for almost 20 years and now are out of box and getting ready to use again. I want to go the extra mile and this time I want to design and build some of my own buildings. My enjoment use to be creating realistic looking landscapes and now I'll expand on that too. Free lance modeling is the most open style of creativity and I am all for it. What we need to figure out is how to spread the movement and interest into the younger generation. Real trains are slowly becoming extinct and we can preserve the love of trains in model rairoading. Anyone showing off their whole layouts on the web?

[Jetrock]

Real trains are becoming extinct? Not from where I'm sitting...some of the historical stuff is dropping away, but rail traffic is actually on the rise--freight traffic is at an all-time high, Amtrak is carrying more people on intercity routes, and light-rail public transportation is expanding. Even short lines (including new ones) are carving out their own economic niche making use of older equipment in regions where major railroads have abandoned uneconomic branch lines.

Personally I have high hopes for the future of model railroading because trains are here to stay. Of course, today's kids will be misty-eyed about FREDs instead of cabooses and third-generation diesels instead of last-generation steam engines, but they'll still be building models and taking photos and grousing about the latest Athearn kits...

oh yeah, on playing with trains vs. model railroading: if you're just starting out and gaining basic skills, it's perfectly fine to play with trains for as long as you want. eventually, though, you may develop the urge to go farther with the hobby, which is where things like operation schemes, prototype research, freelancer backstory and custom paint jobs come into play...think of it as the next level of challenge for a model railroader. It's helpful to complete the first level first, though. Don't be in a rush, no matter what us old guys say.

[Anonymous]

I don't think Freelancing is dead, in fact I believe the opposite. People are getting tired of the prototypical rivit counting Purists. In the last month, I've come across dozens of people posting in several places that thay're creating such and such RR in someplace it never ran, or they're builing their own RR based ina certain time frame. And less and less people are spouting how thier RR is pure to the line.

In fact even found a group making their own RR's, then intertwining the lines in fictional routes. Person 1 has a line in say Arizona, person be has a line in texas, they dicide to hook up in some city in New Mexico, even going so far as to say what cities along the way that their line services.

Freelancing is on the rise, as it always should have been.

Jay.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Guys,Regardless if you free lance your railroad name(NOT LAYOUT) it takes as much research has it does a real railroad if it is to be believable..
Guys if you say your railroad is say Kentucky Central and all I see on your layout is the L&N,then brother you are modeling the L&N.Period..Now if I look at your locomotives and see they are lettered for the KC then you are indeed free lancing a railroad.Now if you tell me you are modeling the KC division of the(say) L&N then I well agree with that..

I don't believe for one second that those that model a real railroad is any better then those that model a believable free lance railroad..I say again BOTH NEEDS TO BE RESEARCH IF THEY ARE TO BE BELIEVABLE PERIOD...Not shouting just trying to get the point across.[;)][:D]

Now for those of you that free lance your layout name in order to run every road name under the sun then that is ok to.But please don't tell me you have a free lance railroad..I won't believe it for one second unless I see engines or cars lettered for that road name.

As Ed McMahon would say to the Great Carnac.."YOU ARE CORRECT!!!"

Yes, even a freelanced layout SHOULD be researched and planned just like a prototype layout. Just because the freelanced layout never existed in reality doesnt mean it cant "look" real. It sould have a HISTORY and a PERIOD, Even one thats made up. History means a backstory that explains how your railroad ended up where it is today, and today is the Period you chose to model, 1920's, 1950's, or 2000's.

Period allows you to fine tune the feeling of your layout. Some go so far as to model an excact day (March 4, 1941) I wouldnt go so far as that, but having a layout with 1900 steam engines and a 2000 Ford Exploder on the layout just doesnt look right, unless say, your modeling a modern day tourist excursion line. Then you satisfy both history, running steam in modern day, and period, because the line got taken over for the tourist line. You could even run excursion freight trains with freshly renovated period freight cars, all shiny new like. Just a thought.

I am building a post WWII 1/2" scale narrow gauge mining layout using a variety of g guage items. Its a freelanced layout but I plan to use ideas from a variety of "real" places and trains. Detailing, structures, cars, all add to the believability of the layout and the more you use the same things you see happening to real items and add them to your trains, like the way soot and grime build up on a Cumbres & Toltec K-37, the more believable your layout looks. To me thats part of the challenge.

[bluepuma]

Sure hasn't been the style MR has been showing, more typically is based on some real name or interchanged with a name road. I'm not sure I even want to see that type of railroad, uncertain of what I could learn. Real places, parts of real places even tragically distorted are more interesting, something that looks like it could have come from a real place and time.

Parts of all these model RR's we see are unreal, a lot of places are very boring if you look at them a while. Becoming interested in modeling again helped me see the world in a different light, noticing details I would not have before. I rue the things I did NOT see, things I should have found, recorded on film, before moving 2000 miles away and nearly half a century.

I'd like to see more river crossings full scale, I know what the Missippi looks like in several places between Illinois and Iowa, and the Illinois River at Peoria and north, and the Mile Long Bridge between LaSalle and Oglesby to the concrete plant. I'd just like to have the space to model the LA River crossings of ATSF, and UP, the San Gabriel River ATSF crossing near Irwindale, I-10 or Valley Blvd SP, then UP.

Frustration in getting the key models makes me want to freelance a Los Angeles area that doesn't exist in one place and time just so I could use buildings that weren't there or were in other areas, like the Korea town or Japanese section, where I might put the Tomix and other Japanese buildings, some Kato trains. Maybe the Bullet Train to Las Vegas, San Diego, or coast line to SF.

The compromises in depicting even a realistic quarter mile of surburban area or 4 blocks of city edge put me in fantasyland.

I understand why Walt Disney built Disneyland as it was in '58 or so.

1:1 modeling with compression, different times, places.

[TRENT B]

NO! NEVER! Mine is 12ft x 9ft shaped like a U with a slide out "bridge" I saw in a recent MR article but the issue escapes me at the moment. I'm running a 4-6-4 "Blue Goose" Hudson with blue/yellow warbonnet Geeps. I fell in love with the blue/yellow SantaFes when I was a boy.
I like all trains but the blue/yellows are my favs.
I am totally freelance and I love "playing" & planning the Katieville yards and look. When I am further along I'll post some pics. "FREELANCE IS NOT DEAD!!!" was the battle cry heard round the world! Ha Ha!
Good luck !
Trent

[Anonymous]

Not dead. Mine (The Blue Water Line) is set in fictional villages in the Cattskil Mountains and connects with the now defunct O&W.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:

but how could any one think!!![:(!][:(!][:(!] that free lance was dead[:0][:(!][:0][:(!][:0][:(!][:(][:(].

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Guys,Regardless if you free lance your railroad name(NOT LAYOUT) it takes as much research has it does a real railroad if it is to be believable..
Guys if you say your railroad is say Kentucky Central and all I see on your layout is the L&N,then brother you are modeling the L&N.Period..Now if I look at your locomotives and see they are lettered for the KC then you are indeed free lancing a railroad.Now if you tell me you are modeling the KC division of the(say) L&N then I well agree with that..

I don't believe for one second that those that model a real railroad is any better then those that model a believable free lance railroad..I say again BOTH NEEDS TO BE RESEARCH IF THEY ARE TO BE BELIEVABLE PERIOD...Not shouting just trying to get the point across.[;)][:D]

Now for those of you that free lance your layout name in order to run every road name under the sun then that is ok to.But please don't tell me you have a free lance railroad..I won't believe it for one second unless I see engines or cars lettered for that road name.

[}:)]


I'm not in full agreement here, as I'm modelling circa 1959 most engines are just arriving from other railroads and my paint shop gang have been on strike for the past 6 months so the "new arrivals are still sporting their original colours. But don't worrying, once the trade dispute has been resolved Uncle Pete's smiling face will be the first to be painted over[:D]

The imagination is not be put in a box!

[GDRMCo]

The great dividing range mining company operates in queensland, new south wales and victoria. i uses engines built in aus by clyde emd and operates coal zinc lead and gold trains from the mines to the docks to be exported to overseas markets.

[TheK4Kid]

I myself am working on a basically "freelanced layout", but it will carry a Pennsylvania RR theme, based on the 40's and early 50's, with mostly steam engine era, witha couple early diesels.
Mainly because my dad worked on the Pennsy when I was a kid.
I am also a private pilot and so, it will include an airport from the same era, but it will be based on a historic airport here locally.
The local RR 's here ran behind the airport main hangar, and during world war two, carried parts for and later the the dissassembled for transport TDR-1 drone, the FIRST cruise missile the military ever used. TDR-1's were used against Japanese ships in the Pacific.
Just a short distance from there, the first atomic bombs were partially assembled and transported by local rail transport.
This all took place in northeast Indiana, in the city of Ft Wayne.
By the way. Nickel Plate's famous 765 Berkshire is being restored not far from where I live, over just east of Ft Wayne, and only about 1/4 mile from where the first three atomic bombs were partially assembled in the very same building complex.

[Supermicha]

Also for me, freelance is not dead. I´m running Columbia & Southern Trains in the 1990 era on my "narrow village" layout. Having its own railroad is much more fun than running Uncle Pete or something else. i´m the boss and can run trains like i want.

micha

[Anonymous]

Not to me are they dead. I've been in the hobby fir over 50 years and have enjoyed visiting hundreds of pikes, allover the country. You can see quality work with both protptype modelers and free lancers. I'm a free lancer and happy at it, but I try my best to make my Intermountain Pacific RR as accurate as I can, just as if it really existed. However I do subscribe to Allan McClelland's 'good enough' philosophy. I don't detail what cannot be viewed, in most cases. My layout is in the Absoroka Mountains of Montana and runs from the real town of Red Lodge to Silver Gate Mt. but I have several made up towns inbetween, however they are generally based upon geographic factors. Towns like Rock Creek, Beartooth, Wyomont, Pipestone, and Helper are examples. My RR is set solidly in the summer of 1959. I totally resist the urge to vary this time slot. I'm really pleased that Atlas is releasing the low hood SD-24 soon, as this is about the only low hood that I can accomodate. My reason for holding to 1959 is that it is about the latest that I can justify running steam and I have several of United's Sierra 2-6-6-2's on the line, to which I have added Elesco feedwater tanks on the brow, plus the pumps and seven pipe runs to the heater. I can do it because it's my own freelanced line. I have a very convincing story behind my railroad and how it evolved. My line was created by the Treasure State Metals Ltd.,. in order to haul out the significant volume of copper ore which they discovered near Clark Folk. We have the mine plus a concentrator, an electrolytic refinery and a wire mill on the line. This can make for a lot of traffic on an out of the way mountain railroad. Sure we use diesels, many Atlas/Kato RS-1's, and RSD-5's, in a flashy bright red and gull grey scheme, with a yellow side sill stripe. The RR is in a 12 x 20 ft. room with 144 ft. of mainline and two terminals. No it hasn't been published. I submitted it to MRR but maybe there's truth in the statement that they prefer prototypes since they didn't accept it. My layout was open for the 1986 Boston National Convention as well as several NER Regionals. But I have a great deal of fun and relaxation in the hobby and that helps to contribute to a long life. Jack.

[easyaces]

Freelance model railroads are far from dead, including my own MR&L(Monticello,Richmond,&Lafayette RR)"Serving the Hoosier Triangle") which started out as a track and signal maintenance RR to hauling freight as a small regional, and has connections with both CSX and NS in between. They might push all the others in the magazines, but there are still those of us with some imagination and gumption to keep freelancing alive!

[Anonymous]

What is beautiful about this part of the forum is, we have people actually talking about model railroading and not just blarney to build up stars. Long live the Dalreada National Railways.

[Anonymous]

I was scanning your question and some of the others comments. It is very interesting to see that the freelance layouts are not dead. I also sort of freelance my layouts. I think this method should continue. In some ways a researched true to life layout that has been modeled after a certain RR or area is good, if that's what you really want to do. but in other ways it is not so good. A very good friend of mine has been going to build a layout modeling either the Kalispell, MT. or a portion of the GN RR for years now, and he has yet to ever get beyond the beginning stage. I have seen him start several layouts then suddenly tear them out and get rid of all the equipment ( to include all the pre-made benchwork he had ordered and assembled ) to just end up having to re-buy, all new quipment for the same thing all over again. (To me that is a waste of hard earned money, but that is his choice) I have built 3 freelance layouts in this time frame and have had all of them running. unfortunately, do to my occupation, I've had to tear them up as I've had to move from town to town or state to state.and because of limited cargo space when moving, i have had to leave the wooden portions of the layout's behind (but at least I didn't have to get rid of my equipment.) Well, at least wood is cheaper than model RR equipment.
My point is: that it's sometimes more fun to to just do a freelance and have the fun of running it, than to spend years doing research on a particular RR and building part of it and never even getting it running.BLOCKED SCRIPTinsertsmilie('[:)]')

[orsonroy]

Pure freelance layouts are still in the majority in this hobby. They always have been, and probably always will be. One of the big reasons we're seeing a lot more prototype-based layouts in print is because most of the best modelers in the country (that are willing to be published) are reality-based. I've seen a LOT of pure freelance layouts while on layout tours, and frankly, they suck. If a layout isn't pretty enough to get published, it won't be.

One other thing to think about. Model railroading is the only modeling hobby where the majority of people DON'T model reality. Model boats, cars, airplanes, tanks, etc., all lean heavily towards modelign a real slice of life, while most model railroaders don't. Frankly, most other model hobbies don't take us seriously because of this, calling us a bunch of crazy old men playing with toy trains in our basements. Proto modeling proves to the rest of the hobby that we can actually do betetr work than the rest of them, since all our stuff looks good AND functions!

[The Highlander R R]

I 100% agree with everyone else. I am a freelanced Model Rail Roader myself. I have created  my layout entirely from my imagination and researching for all my ideas, and feel my end results would have been no better if I had done proto type. I have several areas on my layout that have items from actual pieces of rail road history but everything else has been created to fit what was needed to make it happen. My R.R. can be seen at www.claytimeceramics.net  or www.rrlayout.com The Highlander. I created everything to scale and never tire of my enjoyment from working on my layout ; even after working on it since June of 2003, and still have so much more I still want to do. I say hats off to the guy who just wants to enjoy model Rail Roading and the Free Lancer. Even the real thing was about someones dream of bringing to life what the rails could do, so if you want to get technical all rails could be looked at as a free lance R.R. type in the begining.  The Highlander. 

[GTX765]

Everything about my Layout is free-lanced and fictional. I am even having some engines with UP markings that UP never owned. My layout will have a WWII battle with Germans and Americans having a battle over a Fuel Refinery. The fuel is the blood of any military with mechanized infantry and armor. So of course I will have German and American trains and rolling stock bringing in fresh war supplies to the battle. We all know this never happened but it sure is fun. Not to mention German engines are so different compared to the American engines. I like to line them up on the rails and compare them. I did not see the joy of re-creating what was already built in real life. I wanted to create my own world on my layout. Most might think it's strange but I am doing this for my personal enjoyment.

[bportrail]

I am right there with ya!  There was some serious rail mounted firepower deployed in WW2.  They make for some great modeling.

 Keith-Bportrail

  

[on30francisco]

My railroad is freelanced but is based on narrow gauge logging and light industry practices around the early 1900s (more or less). I don't follow any particular prototype as long as my equipment looks plausible. I find prototype modeling too restrictive and anal FOR ME. Malcolm Furlow and John Allen are my heroes. I realize Model Railroader and RMC are pushing prototype modeling and operation and there's nothing wrong with that, however, there are many closet freelancers out there who find their interests better served by other magazines or the internet. I find the Large Scale and On30 community is very laid back and accepting when it comes to us freelancers, protolancers, and renegade modelers.

[pastorbob]

Back in the 1970's and up to mid 80's I had a freelanced railroad called the Mojave Western.  It included a second freelanced railroad, the Oklahoma Northern.

In 1988 I scrapped the freelance and began modeling the Santa Fe, Oklahoma lines, 1989.  I stayed pretty close to the reality factor with it.  I grew up on the Santa Fe as a child, worked for them after college for several years in Topeka KS designing computer systems, left for ministry. 

Today, my three deck Santa Fe still runs, but I recently introduced some fiction into reality.  In 1989 Santa Fe abandoned some trackage in Western Oklahoma coming into Cherokee OK.  I unabandoned it, and re-introduced the Oklahoma Northern, which runs with a hodge podge of cast off diesels including high noses, lots of grain cars, second hand, etc.  ON uses the same decals and paint job as the original ON, has trackage rights over Santa Fe to Oklahoma City and now I have the best of both worlds.

Life is good!!!

Bob 

 

[mmartian22]

yes they are  alive  i believe .my layout is a free lanced one .i was trying to model the c&o logging -coal region in wv  and found my scratch building  stinks . so i went out  and bought the  plastic stuff and did it that way untill i can practice on scrath building better .

[New Haven I-5]

no free lance are not dead im working on my as we talk

I have built 3 free lanced layouts & 2 of them are DEAD!

 

[Dave Vollmer]

Curious that this 4.5-year-old thread was resurrected this weekend.

This was the very first thread I ever replied to when I joined trains.com.  In fact, I was sitting in an Iraqi-run internet cafe on Camp Muleskinner, Baghdad, when I did so.  That camp is now gone.

Interesting.  Equally interesting is that in 2003 I was drifting out of freelancing and into prototype modeling.  Now I'm completely entrenched in prototype-only modeling.

[PA&ERR]

As a rivet counter, I have to say it's my observation that the term "freelancing" means, in the overwheming majority of cases, "I'll run whatever I want in whatever setting I want with whatever track design I want." Precious little research goes into the majority of "freelance" layouts.

Now, if that's what you want to do, that's fine. It's America, after all. But you aren't really MODELLING a RAILROAD if your layout consists of a hodgepodge of locomotives and cars from different eras running in circles through random scenery.

It'd be better defined as "playing with trains."

I've got news for you...

We're ALL just playing with trains.

Our boxcars are empty, as are almost all of our other cars (if you don't count car weights). They don't really go anywhere. Many just go around in circles. Others just go from one storage area to another. Even the broadest of the average layouts cruves are closer to that of a trolley or interurban line than even a Class III road.

And short!

Even the longest of our model railroad "mainlines" come nowhere near to duplicating the real world. Most wouldn't even qualify as a piece of industrial trackage.

In short, we all compromise when it comes to building and operating our layouts. Just because a person chooses a different set "standards" to base his modeling on, doesn't mean he (or she) isn't a "Model Railroader".

Everybody models to their own interests, and abilities. As far as I'm concerned model railroading should be a big tent that covers everybody from a 3 year old playing with Brio trains to the likes of John Allen (who, BTW IMHO was the ultimate freelancer) and Tony Koester.

George

 

 

[PA&ERR]

BTW...

My Port Able and Pacific is totally freelanced, though inspired by the Seattle and North Coast. Also, you won't find any of my towns on any map, but the scenery is (will be) reminiscent of the Pacific Northwest.

And, if I have a  mind to hide an oversized toy alligator in one of my lakes, I'll do so, as John Allen once said, "Not because I don't know any better, but because it amuses me." 

-George

[SOU Fan]

Nope, not dead.

[Anonymous]

My layout is a real line, but the only realy town is Concord, NH. Stude NH, Dooley, NH, and New Poland, NH are completly fictional. (To the best of my knowlage, anyway)

[IRONROOSTER]

Free lanced model railroads, defined as a ficticious road name, I think will always be with us.  Some folks just want to roll their own, just like some get as close to a prototype as possible.  Others are somewhere in between. I think freelancing was more popular years ago when just getting a layout built and running was a big challenge. Now there is more of a desire to model a prototype which I think is a result of better quality kits and RTR available today. 

But even though I am following the Ma&Pa for my next layout, I have several free lance cars, including one for the G&D, that I will run on my layout.  I also have some 2 ft gauge locomotives and cars that I will include.  So I guess I am mixing the two.

Enjoy
Paul

[snagletooth]

Nope, not dead.

If NS ever decides to do a "heritage" scheme like that on a SD80MAC with the same number, does that mean your no longer a freelancer? Or would the railroad now be considered to be prototype modeling?

[fwright]

Personally, I enjoy engineering and fleshing out a vision into a reality.  Therefore, realistic free-lancing appeals to me.  I am engineering what might have been had history been slightly different.  The research of the prototype modelers is essential to this task.  Their research into what practices various prototype railroads used, and why, lead me to implement suitable practices for my free-lance lines.

I've enjoyed poring over maps to figure out a realistic routing for my fictitious railways across Oregon.  Sometimes, the names of real towns are used.  Other times, I wanted a particular name that didn't exist along my intended route.

Lebanon is an example for my Port Orford & Elk River Railway & Navigation Company.  The fictious logging railway was able to compete with its closer-to-market California competition by being able to offer famous Port Orford Cedar, and a little bit of Alaska yellow cedar and myrtle wood, in addition to the standard redwood.  Lebanon, Oregon is actually in Northern Oregon.  But for me, Lebanon is a fictious town in Southern Oregon where my standard and narrow gauge lines interchange.

Designing locomotive and car rosters that suit and would have been useful and profitable on these free-lance lines is another point of interest.

In other words, free-lancing opens up the ability to design my own world, while still being realistic and plausible.

my choice

Fred W 

[marknewton]

Fred, that's all fine and good, for someone with the knowledge and skills to carry it off, which I reckon you must have.

But I've seen so many freelance layouts that were neither realistic or plausible, because the builder lacked any real knowledge or insight into how things work. They didn't know much about railroads, history, architecture, graphic design, economics, geography, geology or botany, for starters.

I would argue that to build a freelance layout that is realistic and plausible, you need to have a good understanding of all these things. Ironically, the people who would most benefit from a bit of prototype research seem to be the ones most hostile to the idea.

But in the meantime, I'll go with what Ray Breyer stated in an earlier post - many freelance layouts suck.

All the best,

Mark.

[marknewton]

Now wp8thsub, I take some exception to what you wrote, first "Prototype modelers tend to adopt higher modeling standards. As a result, their models tend to be of higher average quality than those of hobbyists as a whole and are more presentable in photos. " So prototypers are better modelers that freelances? What an elitist attitude!!!

No, it's not elitist, it's a simple statement of fact. Most are better modellers. Or are you claiming that someone who runs out-of-the-box Tyco is as talented as someone who scratchbuilds their own locos?

I could say that prototypers are dullards who are incapable of creativity and have to have some one else do all the planning for them, including their hobby. Does that sting, or is it true?

No more or less true than to say that freelancers are dullards who are incapable of creativity, and have to copy someone else's model railroad out of a magazine or book.

Mark.

[secondhandmodeler]

THIS THREAD IS FOUR YEARS OLD!  If you have something to add to the comments, great!  Please don't try to argue with someone about what they said FOUR YEARS AGO!

[twhite]

Kind of fascinating that this 5-year old thread is alive and well. 

There is an in-between of "Freelance" and "Prototypical" and that's "Proto-lance", which as I understand (and practice) is adopting prototype locomotives and rolling stock to a 'freelance' setting.  Hence my own Yuba River Sub.  I happen to run Rio Grande big steam in the California Sierra Nevada mountains (Rio Grande never made it this far).  Now I don't run generic steamers with Rio Grande decals slapped on, I run models of steam locomotives that are based on actual Rio Grande prototypes (which of course, these days, means brass).  According to my 'history', the Rio Grande decided on their own entry-way into California after the Western Pacific became independent.  SP had Donner Pass, WP had the Feather River Canyon, so the Rio Grande chose a mid-point between the two, the Yuba River watershed.  And since I also like SP big steam, it was easy to get trackage rights for Cab-forwards to charge up Yuba Summit when their Donner Pass line was clogged with traffic, or one of the snowsheds had burned down. 

It's fun.  I get to run both my favorite railroads over trackage that represents the particular Middle and North Fork Yuba River Sierra Nevada country that I grew up in (and country that largely never saw a railroad, BTW).  So, for me, it's the best of both worlds.   I run prototypically researched models of favorite steam, and I model the Yuba River scenery as accurately as I can, given my particular talents.   I have been chided a little about my propensity for Missabe Yellowstones, but I can even explain that--prototypically, the Rio Grande borrowed about 8 of them for use during the winters of WWII.  I simply decided to have my 3 assume the never-was 3900 Rio Grande series.  Rio Grande 2-8-8-4's?  Nah!  But they look nice, especially simmering in the Nevada City yards next to the actual Rio Grande L-131 2-8-8-2's and the handsome Baldwin L-105-4-6-6-4's (and what, do you ask, are fleet-footed Challengers doing in the heavy grades of the high Sierra, right?). 

So, for everyone reading, I can always use the tired old excuse: Hey, it's MY railroad and I'll do whatever I want!   But I try and do it as a modeler who likes to see satisfying results--if only for myself. 

Tom

[marknewton]

THIS THREAD IS FOUR YEARS OLD!  If you have something to add to the comments, great!  Please don't try to argue with someone about what they said FOUR YEARS AGO!

When did you get appointed moderator?

[Geared Steam]

I find prototype modeling too restrictive and anal FOR ME. Malcolm Furlow and John Allen are my heroes.

I'm with you here, I like "personality" in a layout, it draws my interest more. I can appreciate strict proto modeling and the work that goes into it, but, "believable freelanced" is more enjoyable to me.

[luvadj]

I don't think so...our layout is pure freelanced and we like imagining wherever we want to be running our trains.

[IRONROOSTER]

THIS THREAD IS FOUR YEARS OLD!  If you have something to add to the comments, great!  Please don't try to argue with someone about what they said FOUR YEARS AGO!

 

Not only is he arguing with a 4 year post, he's dragging in stuff about Tyco and scratchbuilding that was never mentioned.  Apparently those with a different point of view are Tyco modelers - the Ultimate Insult.  And those who agree are all locomotive scratchbuilders par excellence - the Hallowed Ground.

Must be a full moon out tonight.

Enjoy

Paul 

 

[METRO]

Actually I freelanced a LOT of my layout.  The main city is freelanced, the islands it's on are freelanced, the mountain range west of the city is freelanced. Aparently in my world the Laurentians had a couple more offshoots, and there are about 12 million more people in Ontario.

The main railroads are also freelanced.  The Selenian Lines Commission is a mass transit system based loosely on the MTA, and the Selene International Port Commission is a government owned belt line that is a mixture of the IHB, Brooklyn Terminal and is all Alco like the GBW.

Cheers!

~METRO 

[Flashwave]

Not dead here, Half Moon Orion & Northern is free lanced. And by the way, I like the puns. They're funny.

(HO&N as an acronym tands for the two scales dad and I run)

[marknewton]

Must be a full moon out tonight...

Yeah, must be - you're out barking up the wrong tree.

[secondhandmodeler]

THIS THREAD IS FOUR YEARS OLD!  If you have something to add to the comments, great!  Please don't try to argue with someone about what they said FOUR YEARS AGO!

When did you get appointed moderator?

I don't think I've read a post by you yet that isn't arguing with somebody.  I just couldn't stand to see you start an argument with a ghost.

[Geared Steam]

THIS THREAD IS FOUR YEARS OLD!  If you have something to add to the comments, great!  Please don't try to argue with someone about what they said FOUR YEARS AGO!

When did you get appointed moderator?

I don't think I've read a post by you yet that isn't arguing with somebody.  I just couldn't stand to see you start an argument with a ghost.

Here we go, I predict a several paragraph long response with many,many quotes and witty retorts. 

[PA&ERR]

THIS THREAD IS FOUR YEARS OLD!  If you have something to add to the comments, great!  Please don't try to argue with someone about what they said FOUR YEARS AGO!

 

Not only is he arguing with a 4 year post, he's dragging in stuff about Tyco and scratchbuilding that was never mentioned.  Apparently those with a different point of view are Tyco modelers - the Ultimate Insult.  And those who agree are all locomotive scratchbuilders par excellence - the Hallowed Ground.

Must be a full moon out tonight.

Enjoy

Paul 

Didn't you hear? The next RPM meeting is going to be held in the Bohemian Grove!

-George

[wm3798]

I disagree that "most" free-lance railroaders are doing roundy roundy with their SD80mac's and 4-6-6-4's side by side.  Based on the responses to this thread, I think there's a lot of guys out there who have put a lot of thought into their home road, creating their fictional history, route maps and traffic sources.

I started out a million years ago with a free-lance road, the Laurel Valley, set in southwest Pennsylvania.  I have built up quite a roster over the years, so when I started working on my Western Maryland-themed layout about 10 years ago, I decided to provide an interchange point for the LRV.

Now, Laurel Valley coal drags make regular appearances on the WM, and they provide some through freight via a connection with the east and westbound alpha jets.

Lee 

[Autobus Prime]

Folks:

Nothing is dead which can in archives lie, and with strange eons even threads may be dug out and revived...

Even the jokey names aren't dead.  I think a few well-publicized voices belong to modelers who outgrew their sense of humor but didn't grow back into it yet before they had built up a Publick Persona that they didn't dare go against (for fear of provoking poison pens), but if you look around the horrible jokes and worse puns are still out there.  One of my favorites is "Tech Nickel Plate".

The important thing, I think, is to be careful with the joke-locations.  "Gorre & Daphetid" was a problem because it was a railroad name, and the obvious joke wore a little thin.  OTOH, "The G-D Line" is more subtle.

"Gasmeterszag" is as subtle as a club, but it's not a problem because you aren't using it all the time.  Wear accumulation is therefore reduced to manageable levels.

My own railroad has a couple of silly jokes that might not be recognizable.  The roadname, "Venango & Erie", is quite sober and even pretends to some dignity.  It is shockingly free of puns.  However, the towns of Wattsburg and Johnson Furnace, which seem just as dull and proper, just happen to be near the electrical-service panel and a Johnson forced-air heating unit.

[pastorbob]

I strive to stay railroad pure on my Santa Fe, but there is a large chemical plant at Guthrie Oklahoma nestled amongst the milling and grain storage places called Stench Chemical.  I even have done a fleet of 10 chemical tanks and some covered hoppers lettered for Stench Chemical.  (STCX) reporting marks.

Bob

[fwright]

Fred, that's all fine and good, for someone with the knowledge and skills to carry it off, which I reckon you must have.

But I've seen so many freelance layouts that were neither realistic or plausible, because the builder lacked any real knowledge or insight into how things work. They didn't know much about railroads, history, architecture, graphic design, economics, geography, geology or botany, for starters.

I would argue that to build a freelance layout that is realistic and plausible, you need to have a good understanding of all these things. Ironically, the people who would most benefit from a bit of prototype research seem to be the ones most hostile to the idea.

But in the meantime, I'll go with what Ray Breyer stated in an earlier post - many freelance layouts suck.

All the best,

Mark.

Mark

Thanks.  Don't know if I have the skill to make the vision a reality, but I'm giving it my best shot.  But I am incredibly grateful to prototype modelers like yourself, and the authors of books about prototypes.  It is through these sources that I have learned what is realistic and plausible, and what is not.  And I have to take the research one step further and determine why particular prototypes used the practices they did.  Examples such as figuring out what size Shay would be appropriate, and which classes were being built in the 1880s and 1890s, why certain car manufacturers were shunned by some railroads and favored by others, and so on.  Then I decide what stance my free-lance line will take based upon the reasoning of the era. 

I've had to change the location of my free-lance line because the real world topography and situation didn't match the LDEs I had in mind.  The mismatch grated on me.  I might be turning into a rivet counter after all! 

I grew up in the hobby modeling other people's models and layouts because that's all I understood.  But buying some books about prototypes and the point being made about what I was modeling by the prototype modelers changed my direction.  Although my LDEs are still sometimes based on other model railroads, I am making sure they are plausible for the location and setting.

I do believe the most common reason for free-lance layouts not being realistic or plausible is falling into the trap of modeling other people's layouts.  Like I said, I enjoy the research and engineering across all disciplines that are required to build a railroad.  It's given me a much greater appreciation for our forefathers and what they accomplished.

But that's me, and how I enjoy the hobby.

Fred W 

[marknewton]

I don't think I've read a post by you yet that isn't arguing with somebody.  I just couldn't stand to see you start an argument with a ghost.

Then don't read my posts.

[marknewton]

Here we go, I predict a several paragraph long response with many,many quotes and witty retorts. 

Hope you make better models than you make predictions.

[secondhandmodeler]

I don't think I've read a post by you yet that isn't arguing with somebody.  I just couldn't stand to see you start an argument with a ghost.

Then don't read my posts.

Most of your posts are quite informative.  I appreciate your knowledge on most subjects.  I was addressing your combative responses to a few of the posts on this forum.  I have to apologize, part of my earlier response was based on an annoyance of old threads being brought up.  I noticed that the old threads were brought up without a new post.  I'm guessing someone posted a B.S. post, then deleted their post to show the last historical post as the most current post. 

[Geared Steam]

Here we go, I predict a several paragraph long response with many,many quotes and witty retorts. 

Hope you make better models than you make predictions.

Mark

But I was correct on the "witty retort" wasn't I? 

[Autobus Prime]

I do believe the most common reason for free-lance layouts not being realistic or plausible is falling into the trap of modeling other people's layouts. 

fw:

I agree with this. I wish I could say that particular practice was restricted to freelancers or one particular group, but unfortunately, it's not; people who are modeling real-life RRs do it as often as anybody else does.

Still, I think it is possible to overthink this.  You can overdo the studies into history, architecture, graphic design, economics, geography, geology, botany, and the exact thickness of the foam layer on top a draft of Ballantine Beer in 1956.  You can even let them stop you before you can get started.  I do like to look at the old photos in the libraries and browse online treasure-troves like the HABS archive and the RPI site.  I like things to look right.  In the end, though, I've got a railroad in my head and I'm going to bring it out, and if this or that isn't quite as it "would have been", well, one real world is never quite enough for us humans, is it?

Creativity and careful observation are really all you need in this hobby.

[Lateral-G]

I plan to freelance my forthcoming layout. It's narrow guage, loosely based on the D&RGW, with some C&S thrown in. I won't be running ACF hoppers or hi-cube box cars on it but what I do run will look like it belongs. I'm researching books and photos right now to get a flavor of bridges and structures. But if I find a structure of something from the eastern US that I like and looks like it could fit in my chosen theme then I'll put it in.

 

After all, my railroad has to make me happy, first and foremost.

As one of the finest scale modelers once said:

“Build what YOU want, the way YOU want to, and above all, have fun.”
- Al Superczynski (1947 - 2007)

-G- 

 

 

 

[vsmith]

Well since I'm feeling in a particularly jaunty mood today, lets toss this Atom Bomb into the mix:

My definition of freelancing is "that which has been made up or altered from the original prototype"

Thus it could be argued the ALL model railroads are "freelanced", even by those who claim to be following the most rigorous rules of prototyical standards out there. Heres why:

1. It is physically impossible to exactly model most real world pre-existing conditions due to space constrants. Any model railroad based on any real place will by necessity require condensing or compromises in order to fit any given location. 

2. These compromises are determined by what the individual modelers own preferences and prejudices are.

3. Given that no 2 modelers will ever model something that is identical to any other modeler, it must be given that the choices made by the modeler are unique interpretations of any pre-existing condition. Thier models become unique expressions of the modeler.

4. If its an interpretation, its by definition a freelancing if you will, even if that intrepretation is ment to follow the original condition as closely as possible. It still a personal expression of that modelers interpretaion of the existing condition.

Therefor any model railroad has had to have been "freelanced" to one degree or another, in order to meet the given space and conditions avaiable to model in, and as the personal interpretation of the individual.

As evidence, I read Shortline and Narrow Gauge Gazette religiously, I cannot tell you how many different layouts have been featured on the same segments of D&RGW lines, I cannot tell you how many different layouts have featured a segment, say like the Ophir loop, yet none of the layouts have been anywhere near identical, in fact far from it, each layout is singularly unique from the other.

Thats due to the interpretational "freelancing" that occurs when we take any existing condition and impose our own personal take on it, its all "made up", regardless of how prototypical the modelers strove to be. Every model railroad is a "made up" line, made up from real world source to fit a modelers given condition, made up from real world sources to express the modelers personal preferences and skills, its STILL all made up! so its all "freelanced".

OK... light the flamethrowers! but play nice...

 

[TheK4Kid]

My layout is totally freelanced.
The only theme to it is so fat it's all PRR.I may put in a NKP mixture later on since the NKP did cros PRR in my hometown of Ft wayne Indiana.
I do what I want and I have fun doing it!

TheK4Kid

Working on the Pennsy 

 

 

[PA&ERR]

Didn't there use to be a Private Road Name SIG at one time? Anybody know what happened to it?

-George