Are "pure" free lanced model railroads dead?

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by flee307

QUOTE: Originally posted by wp8thsub

Wow, since I've apparently torqued off some fellow modelers, I figure why stop now when I'm on a roll? Seriously Paul, Fred (and everybody else I offended who hasn't sounded off) I'm not on some opposite side of the hobby from y'all.

[b]FRED SAYS HE DON'T CARE WHAT YOU GOT TO SAY.

Flee-man,

Chill dude....I think Western Pacific guy is saying he's on our side, just coming from a different viewpoint and thats cool. Cant we all just get along?

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by anthonyrio

I have been working for the past few years on and off, struggling with this dilemma. Prototype modeling or freelance.

The problem comes with prototype modeling of my favorite (defunct) line is that i simply don't have the space or the funds to do as i wish, even with compression. And the fact that the traction model industry is lacking and way to expensive for what exists IMO. And i am no scratchbuilder of equipment.. structures fine.... equipment, no.

But with freelance, the problem becomes, how much freelance? I dunno if my imagination and sense of creativity is developed enough.

I have been working more and more with planning a line historically influenced off my prototype, yet freelanced for my own space, time, and budget constraints.

AntonyRio

Why not use the prototype as a basis for your freelance? That way you can use whats commercially avilable, paint it to match the prototype and use commercail structures the same way. Use the existing tools and supplies to as closely match your carrier without getting slavi***o replicating it exactly, you might be surprised how close you can get to the original.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

QUOTE: Originally posted by flee307

QUOTE: Originally posted by wp8thsub

Wow, since I've apparently torqued off some fellow modelers, I figure why stop now when I'm on a roll? Seriously Paul, Fred (and everybody else I offended who hasn't sounded off) I'm not on some opposite side of the hobby from y'all.

FRED SAYS HE DON'T CARE WHAT YOU GOT TO SAY.

Flee-man,

Chill dude....I think Western Pacific guy is saying he's on our side, just coming from a different viewpoint and thats cool. Cant we all just get along?

[b] FRED NO REALLY MAD. Fred likes a good fight and loves to argue with close minded people. It's fun. Esp with people who think the universe revolves around them and any other veiwpoint is wrong. They say the funniest things if pressed, like they are the best modeler ever and they stand by it, or Walmart is t5he best thing that ever happened. FRED

[wp8thsub]

"I think Western Pacific guy is saying he's on our side, just coming from a different viewpoint..."

Exactly. Thank you.

"... I disagree with your comment about more modelers would do prototype if more product was availible. Did I miss something here?"

Maybe. As you said, every model produced has some prototype basis. What I'm referring to is the fairly recent proliferation of very accurate models that allows those who choose to do so to medel a greater variety of specific stuff without much effort. When I started modeling the WP in the 1980s, most of the equipment I was modeling had to be kitbashed and re-detailed to match photos. Most of that effort is no longer necessary.

"The "fear" of prototyping is also untrue, I would probably say its more of an "indifference" to prototyping."

Plenty of indifference to be sure, but I've encountered fear. There is a very small but often vocal minority who react to anyone who's doing more than entry level modeling with a palpable fear that the very existence of such modelers will somehow destroy their hobby. I've heard more than one such individual express out and out fear that he will be driven out of the hobby and have to do something else just because I or some other prototype modeler (or even a freelancer who talks about raising his own standards) was out there. I won't pretend to understand why.

"...but I think you are misreading most of the hobbiest out there. ... To them its all about fun, not precision."

I agree that's where most modelers are coming from. I hope I'm not misreading my fellow modelers. My comments about the direction some freelancers are taking toward proto modeling is based on talking with modelers I personally know. I include in this trend people who still model freelanced railroads but who are moving toward greater accuracy in detailing their layouts, freight cars, etc. Most modelers still don't care and that's OK.

"And Finally, I think instead of saying "done right" if you had said "done well" there would have been less angry responces."

Again, maybe so, but it could still be just as possible for someone to misread that line if they were so inclined. "Done right" is a people issue more than a modeling issue in this context. A number of operating layouts are positively no fun at all due to the stress the layout owners force upon the crews.

"loco's (like Colorado narrow gauge, Central American steam, etc.) ARE the equivalent of "cousins Bob's clapped out Plymouth Duster that's on blocks."

Looks like I blew that analogy to some extent. I also model Colorado narrow gauge D&RGW/RGS, so I know what you're talking about in modeling weathered equipment. One of my favorite models is my after-the-wreck RGS 455 rebuild. The model equivalent of the car on blocks is the layout that is in a dirty, unkempt space, that doesn't run because the trackwork isn't done well and otherwise show every indication that the builder doesn't care.

[Anonymous]

“Pure”? What if you model a short line between two terminals named after real towns with fictional towns in between and a connection (interchange) with a real railroad. My railroad runs between Alpine and Terlingua Texas. Terlingua never had a rail connection, Alpine was on an S.P. sub main. My towns do not reflex the details of the two prototype towns. On my railroad Jacqueline Heights and Cat Pause lie in between and they are fictional. Is that “Pure Free Lance”? Just wondering.
JackB

[sparkingbolt]

Wow! A bunch of guys brave enough to freelance. Cool! I am sorta freelancing and following prototype, but only as far as the two work together. Another way to put it is I'm freelancing and adding the features of the prototype so as to keep it believable, and include pieces of my hometown that I want to see, as I want to see it. It's my railroad!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dknelson

I see plenty of free lanced layouts on layout tours but not so many in the magazines, which might tell us more about magazine editors than about what modelers are really doing .
dave nelson

I would think that because prototype modeling takes a different approach to modeling "discipline," they are easier to write about in magazines, as it would be easier to research and make references to real historical events and places. Free-lance, "fantasy" railroads are great, a lot of fun, but in my opinion don't always have the "epic" impact that prototype modeling does. If I buy a MR mag, I always prefer projects that attempt to do the "real" thing because it inspires me to do the same, or at the very least inspires me to "go the distance." When I see the "free-lance" projects, I can admire the uniqueness of them, but unless the modeler is a craftsman like John Allen, I'm not going to be so inspired to do my own thing.

Free-lance or prototype, my inspiration often comes from those who have taken the patience and time to bring something extraordinary to the hobby using years of experience and talent. That's when I really start drooling. [:p]

Johnny [:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

Whew. Alot of very good thoughts here. Easy on the drawbars please. I see this as a wonderful expresion of creativity. Even John Allen himself has a Dinosaur as a yard Switcher. Yes he was a stickler for detail etc.. but he taught us with that Dino, one can have a bit of fun.

I'm glad you mentioned this because as I gather information and get back into the hobby, one of the most important things I want to maintain is my sense of humor. I like prototyping as a opportunity to learn more about realism, i like free-lancing to maintain my sense of creativity, but by all means, I always want to bind it all together with a laugh at the end of the day. Otherwise, it's not going to be worth it for me!

I was thinking about the things I would like to model, and for me, there has to be some funny things going on whatever I should chose. Perhaps a proto-freelance railroad with some funny scenes going on? What would happen if all the animals were released from the local zoo, for example? Or maybe there should be a HO scale axe-murderer loose in the area... I mean... all sorts of things could happen in a small layout town... [:o)]

johnny

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith
AntonyRio

Why not use the prototype as a basis for your freelance? That way you can use whats commercially avilable, paint it to match the prototype and use commercail structures the same way. Use the existing tools and supplies to as closely match your carrier without getting slavi***o replicating it exactly, you might be surprised how close you can get to the original.

I've thought along those lines in the past, but my "line of choice" has always been the defunct Chicago Aurora and Elgin... an interurban line that has been defunct for some 40+ years. My layout that i am planning will approximatly follow the same geographical and societal influences yet be set closer to the modern day.. basically what if a line, with the same approximate history of the CAE had survived as a suburban freight hauler in an area like chicago where transfer service is king? Obviously, I will need to embelish some things and downplay others to "make it work" but i am finding myself enjoying the process thus far.. simply because I am not starting with grid paper and scale rule in hand. I am starting with some story writing... basically creating the history of the line to show how it got to where it is when I model it. I dare say that by the time I'm done, that there will be little difference in "depth" between a real life proto-type and my line.

[vsmith]

Sounds cool, If I ever have the space I would like to model a "what if" of the Pacific Electric in Los Angeles if it had survived to present day, but that remains a long way off for me.

[Anonymous]

I sure hope not! I'd hate to have to quit going to the basement. There is nothing 'wrong' with having a mythical railroad layout altho' I am not crazy about some of the whimsical names used. Having a model of an actual railroad means stretching the imagination to a degree also. Who models the complete home engine and car facilities 100%? If you do, where did you find the room? Model railroading should be FUN, or why have it for a hobby?

[Jetrock]

It seems like one of the arguments of freelancers is the ease of getting "off-the-shelf" equipment for prorotype roads--but what about all those little short lines for which there are few or no available models? I model the Sacramento Northern, and while there are a few models available, they are often hard to find or extremely expensive brass imports.

I model SN because I enjoy the historical research as much as the modeling--it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I've always been a history freak and finding out obscure historical details is a game for me, like solving a mystery. I also like the town where I live and enjoy learning more about how it looked in the past.

But I don't have unlimited funds, and don't want to drop $400 on an exact brass copy of the GE electrics or Niles interurban cars, etcetera.

So I add the freelance element. I'll build the $29 Red Ball GE steeplecab kit and detail it like an SN steeplecab, even though SN didn't have any of that light tonnage. I'll hack up a $10 Bachmann Brill trolley to vaguely resemble a PG&E streetcar, even though it has the wrong number of windows. If it looks close enough to look good, that's fine for me--and with the money I save I can buy more rolling stock, or research books, or I could buy food or something unimportant like that.

I'll even buy the Athearn SN 40-foot steel boxcar, even though SN never owned any, because it's got the right roadname on it, and I can buy it off the shelf, and if I park it in front of a warehouse on my layout it won't explode. I can even run my "Sacramento Belt Line" boxcar next to it, even though there were never cars labeled for the Sacramento Belt Line--the car was formerly owned by a model railroader who built a semi-free-lanced layout based on the SN (named the SBL), and custom-decaled this model for it! I figure it got switched onto the layout from an alternate dimension. Personally I think that's fantastic--in its own way, as funny as a dinosaur switcher.

And, as I mentioned before, I'm playing a little bit with the history of the "real" SN so I can run streetcars alongside early diesels, even though it didn't happen that way in the real world. Because it's fun, and I want it that way--but I still get a kick out of prototype research.

The rivet-counters out there will be very aggravated by this, and the freelance advocates may scoff at why I even bother mentioning such fiddly details. I like being somewhere in between, and while I enjoy being true to the prototype I see no reason to be a slave to it.

Nobody here has to own anyone else's layout--in fact, you sure as heck can't have mine!! It'd be boring if we all built layouts the same way.

[Anonymous]

As an Aussie who not only prefers to model U.S.prototype in the equipment sense, and also U.S. landscape, I would hope I'm not alone in feeling that, in creating my own world of ficticious towns, cities and railroad companies I am developing a unique environment for creativity, both operationally and visually. As I trained as a fine artist I'm fully aware of the importance of familialiarity in the visual senses, but there are times when creativity can and indeed must rule, in order to express the overall idea. May the freelancers and the reality purists work together to maintain a harmonious balance that this hobby has always pertained to offer. Long live model railroading!

[preceng]

What is more fun when you are creating your own mini railroad ... than creating your own railroad? As the CEO of the now great B&M RR (Named after my wife and daughter), I have been able to create every detail of the railroad the way I WANT THEM My wife says I have control issues...but not on my line...not in my basement where I am king. Andrew Carnegie move over. Hail th mighty B&M (which occasionally stands for "female dog & Moan").

I have the greatest respect for those of us who model a prototype down to the last lavatory sign. I love viewing these lines in MRR, etc. I also enjoy having those other lines use the B&M rails on a regular basis, although they pay dearly (insert sinister laugh).

Thanks for the grins guys and gals.

[eastcoast]

[^]

Good morning to all
In this great world of ours, NOTHING IS DEAD UNLESS YOU FEEL IT IS.
My miniature world of EAST COAST RAILWAYS is as fictional as it gets.
I mainly run Amtrak and CSX but , my railroad has competing corporations
trying to out-do each other, just like real life. I run 3 tracks(mainlines) in a bedroom size area and I love it. I do agree that there needs to be a story to go with your world or you will find some aimless boredom with it. Like many others, the EAST COAST RAILWAYS is far from complete and is always evolving with a new plot or new construction, and its all about FUN. [^]

[Anonymous]

I model a fictious prototype: My HO Scale Thomasville Railroad that runs from the town of Thomasville, Pennsylvania, and into Pittsburgh, Parts of West Virginia, Virginia, and Ohio. Unfortunately, due to space limitations (and having both, an HO Scale Layout and an N Scale Layout) I was restrictd to 4'-0" X 8'-0" on my HO Scale one, while the N scale one is 3' X 5', and based on the Thomasville Railroad's Coal Fork Branch (No way related, but somewhat based on ideas from Tony Koester's AM Extension) that runs from the town of Traxington PA. Acros the Mason-Dixon Line, and through West Virginia's rich coal country. You can tell its coal country whenever the amount of hoppers outnumber boxcars five to one...

PS: Mr. Sperandeo, if you are reading this note, how do I go about submitting an article to you guys for publishing in MR? Just wondering...

Tom Pearce
Modeling the Thomasville Railroad in HO and N Scale.

[Hawks05]

i don't know how old this thread is but i'm just starting and there are a few things i want to do. like i want to model the area in which i live but we only have 1 line run through the whole county so that wouldn't be fun. i want to model Minneapolis/St. Paul but i never get up there to look at anything so i think i may just create something of my own. try my luck at creating my own railroad. i'll get back to all of you on what i come up with or decide to model in the end.

[ErnieC]

There is a certain snob appeal in the current prototype modeling mania. Problem is it's too confining of one's creativity and of the wide variety of interests a prototype enthusiast may acquire. I'm very interested in the Ma & Pa but don't model it as it did not run milk, mail, thru freights or mixed trains (after 1945). Nor do I have the 40 hours a week to scratch build all the structures that would be needed. Protofreelancing requires a considerable knowledge of the industry and it's environs and gives one room for the creative opportunity to build scenes that are at least composites and at best places that could exist because they have that 'true to life' feel. This hobby is an art form when we explore it's potential. Now if I only had the skill to create what I can imagine!

[Hawks05]

i came up with Loneview as my town so far. i'm going to get like 1-2 undecorated locos and give them a paint scheme of my own probably but for now i'll stick with railroads that already exist. but they will run on a made up town and stuff. just have to wait till i have more money to get undecorated locos, then the Western Wisconsin Railroad will be in business.

[Anonymous]

I don't think they're dead. I currently model a fictious prototype, which I call the Thomasville Railroad Company. If it were real, it would have territory throughout Pittsburgh, the rest of Pennsylvania, and parts of West Virginia, Virginia, New York State, and Ohio.

I am satisfied with my decision no matter which way I look at it. My fictious road interchanges with the Pennsylvania near Thomasville (where the road's offices are located), in Traxington off the Coal Fork Branch, the Baltimore and Ohio at Summit, Pa, and the Virginian and Ohio off the same line near Coal Gap, WV. Unlike the Pennsy whose steam locomotives were retired inj the early 50's, my road's steam continues and will run until 1965 and Passenger Service continues to run smoothly and turn a profit.

Despite this, due to lack of room, I am restricted to 3' X 5' right now, but as soon as I get the room (Or a building of my own) I will have quite a bit of my empire built. But I guess that has to wait until the distant future.

To Mr. Sperandeo: I do have a question for you: How do I submit an article for publication in Model Railroader?

Tom Pearce
Modeling the Thomasville Railroad Coal Fork Branch, Circa Spring of 1952.

[Anonymous]

I've been doing my own fictional shortline, the Hudson Valley Northern for quite a few years now. While operation is loosly based on D&H practices, the back story and equipment selection has been all HVN.

I'll be the first to admit that going freelance can appear to be easyas you're not confined to any certain equipment limitations, coming up with some of the more realistic details can be very hard to do. An example would be the Alco FA's I currently run...for detail purposes they are ex-NYC units. Using this thought process is not perhaps pure, but it does give me a starting point and helps with the back story of the HVN.

Recently the HVN management decided to buy some new power as the FA's are beginning to need more shop time due to wear and spare part issues. They have decided on a pair of new GP40-2's.

We're all in this hobby for fun. And while some of us find it writing fictional histories and running our models through fictional towns, others enjoy digging through actual history to find what a particular locomotive looked like on a certain day during a certain year.

Is either person enjoying the hobby any less?

[Hawks05]

i think with mine i'll probably use actual railroads like CSX, BN, UP, and CN depending on what i get but i'll maybe decorate a few unpainted cars to have like certain industries on them. i'm going to have a Brewing Company, Grain company, and maybe a steel plant. like a industrial steel place (large bulk tanks for milk and liquids and such).

should be cool. i need to come up with a back story for Loneview.

[Anonymous]

Well, I consider myself to be a free lancer even though I model a long gone fallen flag. My layout has no real name yet and will probably never have a specific locale. That eliminates the need to be picky about the types of plant life that inhabits the area. As far as the railroad company goes I live 30' from the UP main line and have had enough of looking at yellow and gray especially on a locomotive like the 40T-2's. So I saved the bankrupt Rock Island. I came up with a brand new paint sceme(darker blue and white with red pinstripes and of course the big R) bought out the UP and repainted their SD90mac's.

There is so much freedom involved in such freelancing that I think that purists consider it beneath them. I have even been refused service at a local hobby shop because I painted a Kato 90mac blue and white and slapped a big R on the sides and boy would he be offended when if he knew I cut up an Athearn Dash 9 and made a C44-9WB cabless.

So no I don't think it is dead just shunned by the purists and considered to be a sore on the buttocks of model railroading. The hobby is there to enjoy not to get an ulcer stressing that the shade of paint is not prototypical.

Thanks,
Jeremy

[Anonymous]

I do mostly garden railroading, and there isn't much besides freelanced there it seems.
Some "quasi"-prototypical and some quite prototypical, but mostly freelanced.
Like this one
http://home.earthlink.net/~ggage/
The "Humbug & Honeydew"

[vsmith]

Hagan75,

Way Cool website....Those are awesome models, is the layout indoors or outdoors?

I'm also doing 1/2" scale G gauge (indoors) and I know exactly what you mean about the almost inevitability of freelancing in large scale. Read some of my rants on the Garden RR forum about the poor selection of G guage products out there.

Some of these HO guys are so spoiled by the fact that they can get any locomotive ever made from 10 different manufacturers in 10 different roadnames and 10 different paint schemes, they should try large scale where you can choose from 1 manufacturer and whatever locomotive and whatever roadnames that maker decides to produce.

They'd wet their 'depend's'...

[ndbprr]

I think one of the main reasons for less Pure freelanced is the fidelity to prototype of equipment offered today. Even ten years ago you made something and slapped every roadname conceivable on it whether it existed or not. If you visit the railroad sim web sites you see that today. Veranda turbines decorated for every railroad under the sun as an example including Coca Cola. Modelers who knew enough that Virginian hoppers were black weren't going to settle for silver ones and were forced to have private roads because of lack of resources for their favorite railroad. Today you can pretty much get something in the railroad you want, in the detail you want and in the price range you want that will adquately duplicate that railroad. Will we ever have Baldwin Centipedes or center cab transfer engines? Probably not unless I win the lottery but can I find all kinds of stuff for PRR that didn't even exist last year. You bet. So my Allegheny Railroad is fast taking a back seat to the PRR stuff I am able to get. Will I abandon the ARR? It is no longer modeled as trackwork. It has been reduced to trackage rights on the PRR. Will it be phased out? I can see that possibility due to the amount of equipment that can be on the railroad at any given time. Will it happen? Ask me in ten years.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Way Cool website....Those are awesome models, is the layout indoors or outdoors?

It's outdoors, but that is not mine just one of my favourites.
Mine is called BRCS RR and so far the track is in planning [xx(]
But when the snow dissapears sometime next year, I will be ready with the track [:D]

[NevinW]

I think they are much less common. I have modeled "free-lanced" model railroads in the past, but as I have progressed, modeling a specific time and place with relatively prototypical equipment has appealed more to me. My current railroad depicts the B&O and the WM on the Sheepskin route through Morgantown West Virginia. Researching and building this layout has been the most fun of any I have built. Certainly, all of the new much improved models have made this kind of prototypical modeling feasible. The time spent just trying to get the models to work now can be spent researching and scratching building. Personally, as far as the magazines go, I would much rather see a model railroad that depicts real railroads than a fantasy railroad. - Nevin

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hagen75

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Way Cool website....Those are awesome models, is the layout indoors or outdoors?

It's outdoors, but that is not mine just one of my favourites.
Mine is called BRCS RR and so far the track is in planning [xx(]
But when the snow dissapears sometime next year, I will be ready with the track [:D]

Thanks for posting it anyways, i already have a couple of projects in mind from some of the models shown.

[Bikerdad]

First, let me say that the QTRyNN is most definitely freelance. It is so for several reasons, all of which I think pertain to the question, and which may become evident in my response.

An earlier post referred to the two elements of believabiliity and realism. The elements are related, but fortunately for us, they are not in lockstep with one another. However, the linkage itself points to an important tradeoff, a tradeoff where the parameters change from person to person, and even within a person over time. That tradeoff is between creating a level of believability and satisfying one's other desires within the hobby. Internal coherency is one of the key elements to fostering belief, and prototyping, strangely enough, actually makes creating the internal coherency much easier. A prototyped MRR comes complete with a backstory which boosts the believability, which allows one to spend much more time on the "realism" element. The more closely one adheres to the prototype, the stronger the prototype supports the believability. This is especially true when dealing with Non-MRRs. When Joe California sees a MRR of the Southern Pac, UP, or other real lines that operate(d) in California, it establishes a connection, and hence, boosts believability.

Conversely, the farther one goes into freelance, the harder it is to both create the internal consistency, and to establish emotional connections with Joe Public. It CAN be done, but it is more difficult. There even becomes a point where a pure freelance road (aka a Fantasy Road) can more effectively engage Joe Public than does a quasi-proto-lance. This, of course, works best with children, who can connect with Thomas or the Hogwarts Express without any qualms.

This then becomes the tradeoff: the further you go into freelance, the more you can do. However, you also have to work harder to maintain the "believability", because you're trading "realism" for freedom. The prototyper, of course, faces a different tradeoff. The further into protoland he travels, the harder he has to work to establish realism, but the less work on believability he has to do.

Now, the last element goes to human nature. Most of us strive, at some level, to excel. It is a hard, unwelcome truth that "excel" implies standards. Prototypers have it made in this sense for a simple reason: they have what is essentially an objective standard. This standard makes it easier to evaluate their own progress towards excellence, AND to compare their progress to others. Freelancers are handicapped in this sense, which in part explains why prototyping becomes more prevalent the longer a person has been in the hobby. Another element that I believe explains the shift towards prototyping is that "freelancing" is often a cover for "exploring" and figuring out what a person really wants from the hobby. Prototyping allows one to focus, but again, with tradeoffs.

How does this tie into the magazines? Well, the overall aging of the magazine's audience means that they are shifting more and more towards prototyping, and thus, the magazine's, in order to meet their reader's desires, follow suit. Bring more yunguns into the hobby, and you'll see things shift back the other way. Do an article on the DwarvenOrcSmash Railway and you'll thrill the Warhammer guys, but most of the current readers will be less than enthused at an article on super-detailing a rail mounted trebuchet! Only problem is, how many Warhammer guys are going to be reading MR magz?

Grace and peace, BD