Are "pure" free lanced model railroads dead?

[PA&ERR]

Didn't there use to be a Private Road Name SIG at one time? Anybody know what happened to it?

-George 

[TheK4Kid]

My layout is totally freelanced.
The only theme to it is so fat it's all PRR.I may put in a NKP mixture later on since the NKP did cros PRR in my hometown of Ft wayne Indiana.
I do what I want and I have fun doing it!

TheK4Kid

Working on the Pennsy 

 

 

[vsmith]

Well since I'm feeling in a particularly jaunty mood today, lets toss this Atom Bomb into the mix:

My definition of freelancing is "that which has been made up or altered from the original prototype"

Thus it could be argued the ALL model railroads are "freelanced", even by those who claim to be following the most rigorous rules of prototyical standards out there. Heres why:

1. It is physically impossible to exactly model most real world pre-existing conditions due to space constrants. Any model railroad based on any real place will by necessity require condensing or compromises in order to fit any given location. 

2. These compromises are determined by what the individual modelers own preferences and prejudices are.

3. Given that no 2 modelers will ever model something that is identical to any other modeler, it must be given that the choices made by the modeler are unique interpretations of any pre-existing condition. Thier models become unique expressions of the modeler.

4. If its an interpretation, its by definition a freelancing if you will, even if that intrepretation is ment to follow the original condition as closely as possible. It still a personal expression of that modelers interpretaion of the existing condition.

Therefor any model railroad has had to have been "freelanced" to one degree or another, in order to meet the given space and conditions avaiable to model in, and as the personal interpretation of the individual.

As evidence, I read Shortline and Narrow Gauge Gazette religiously, I cannot tell you how many different layouts have been featured on the same segments of D&RGW lines, I cannot tell you how many different layouts have featured a segment, say like the Ophir loop, yet none of the layouts have been anywhere near identical, in fact far from it, each layout is singularly unique from the other.

Thats due to the interpretational "freelancing" that occurs when we take any existing condition and impose our own personal take on it, its all "made up", regardless of how prototypical the modelers strove to be. Every model railroad is a "made up" line, made up from real world source to fit a modelers given condition, made up from real world sources to express the modelers personal preferences and skills, its STILL all made up! so its all "freelanced".

OK... light the flamethrowers! but play nice...

 

[Lateral-G]

I plan to freelance my forthcoming layout. It's narrow guage, loosely based on the D&RGW, with some C&S thrown in. I won't be running ACF hoppers or hi-cube box cars on it but what I do run will look like it belongs. I'm researching books and photos right now to get a flavor of bridges and structures. But if I find a structure of something from the eastern US that I like and looks like it could fit in my chosen theme then I'll put it in.

 

After all, my railroad has to make me happy, first and foremost.

As one of the finest scale modelers once said:

“Build what YOU want, the way YOU want to, and above all, have fun.”
- Al Superczynski (1947 - 2007)

-G- 

 

 

 

[Autobus Prime]

I do believe the most common reason for free-lance layouts not being realistic or plausible is falling into the trap of modeling other people's layouts. 

fw:

I agree with this. I wish I could say that particular practice was restricted to freelancers or one particular group, but unfortunately, it's not; people who are modeling real-life RRs do it as often as anybody else does.

Still, I think it is possible to overthink this.  You can overdo the studies into history, architecture, graphic design, economics, geography, geology, botany, and the exact thickness of the foam layer on top a draft of Ballantine Beer in 1956.  You can even let them stop you before you can get started.  I do like to look at the old photos in the libraries and browse online treasure-troves like the HABS archive and the RPI site.  I like things to look right.  In the end, though, I've got a railroad in my head and I'm going to bring it out, and if this or that isn't quite as it "would have been", well, one real world is never quite enough for us humans, is it?

Creativity and careful observation are really all you need in this hobby.

[Geared Steam]

Here we go, I predict a several paragraph long response with many,many quotes and witty retorts. 

Hope you make better models than you make predictions.

Mark

But I was correct on the "witty retort" wasn't I? 

[secondhandmodeler]

I don't think I've read a post by you yet that isn't arguing with somebody.  I just couldn't stand to see you start an argument with a ghost.

Then don't read my posts.

Most of your posts are quite informative.  I appreciate your knowledge on most subjects.  I was addressing your combative responses to a few of the posts on this forum.  I have to apologize, part of my earlier response was based on an annoyance of old threads being brought up.  I noticed that the old threads were brought up without a new post.  I'm guessing someone posted a B.S. post, then deleted their post to show the last historical post as the most current post. 

[marknewton]

Here we go, I predict a several paragraph long response with many,many quotes and witty retorts. 

Hope you make better models than you make predictions.

[marknewton]

I don't think I've read a post by you yet that isn't arguing with somebody.  I just couldn't stand to see you start an argument with a ghost.

Then don't read my posts.

[fwright]

Fred, that's all fine and good, for someone with the knowledge and skills to carry it off, which I reckon you must have.

But I've seen so many freelance layouts that were neither realistic or plausible, because the builder lacked any real knowledge or insight into how things work. They didn't know much about railroads, history, architecture, graphic design, economics, geography, geology or botany, for starters.

I would argue that to build a freelance layout that is realistic and plausible, you need to have a good understanding of all these things. Ironically, the people who would most benefit from a bit of prototype research seem to be the ones most hostile to the idea.

But in the meantime, I'll go with what Ray Breyer stated in an earlier post - many freelance layouts suck.

All the best,

Mark.

Mark

Thanks.  Don't know if I have the skill to make the vision a reality, but I'm giving it my best shot.  But I am incredibly grateful to prototype modelers like yourself, and the authors of books about prototypes.  It is through these sources that I have learned what is realistic and plausible, and what is not.  And I have to take the research one step further and determine why particular prototypes used the practices they did.  Examples such as figuring out what size Shay would be appropriate, and which classes were being built in the 1880s and 1890s, why certain car manufacturers were shunned by some railroads and favored by others, and so on.  Then I decide what stance my free-lance line will take based upon the reasoning of the era. 

I've had to change the location of my free-lance line because the real world topography and situation didn't match the LDEs I had in mind.  The mismatch grated on me.  I might be turning into a rivet counter after all! 

I grew up in the hobby modeling other people's models and layouts because that's all I understood.  But buying some books about prototypes and the point being made about what I was modeling by the prototype modelers changed my direction.  Although my LDEs are still sometimes based on other model railroads, I am making sure they are plausible for the location and setting.

I do believe the most common reason for free-lance layouts not being realistic or plausible is falling into the trap of modeling other people's layouts.  Like I said, I enjoy the research and engineering across all disciplines that are required to build a railroad.  It's given me a much greater appreciation for our forefathers and what they accomplished.

But that's me, and how I enjoy the hobby.

Fred W 

[pastorbob]

I strive to stay railroad pure on my Santa Fe, but there is a large chemical plant at Guthrie Oklahoma nestled amongst the milling and grain storage places called Stench Chemical.  I even have done a fleet of 10 chemical tanks and some covered hoppers lettered for Stench Chemical.  (STCX) reporting marks.

Bob

[Autobus Prime]

Folks:

Nothing is dead which can in archives lie, and with strange eons even threads may be dug out and revived...

Even the jokey names aren't dead.  I think a few well-publicized voices belong to modelers who outgrew their sense of humor but didn't grow back into it yet before they had built up a Publick Persona that they didn't dare go against (for fear of provoking poison pens), but if you look around the horrible jokes and worse puns are still out there.  One of my favorites is "Tech Nickel Plate".

The important thing, I think, is to be careful with the joke-locations.  "Gorre & Daphetid" was a problem because it was a railroad name, and the obvious joke wore a little thin.  OTOH, "The G-D Line" is more subtle.

"Gasmeterszag" is as subtle as a club, but it's not a problem because you aren't using it all the time.  Wear accumulation is therefore reduced to manageable levels.

My own railroad has a couple of silly jokes that might not be recognizable.  The roadname, "Venango & Erie", is quite sober and even pretends to some dignity.  It is shockingly free of puns.  However, the towns of Wattsburg and Johnson Furnace, which seem just as dull and proper, just happen to be near the electrical-service panel and a Johnson forced-air heating unit.

[wm3798]

I disagree that "most" free-lance railroaders are doing roundy roundy with their SD80mac's and 4-6-6-4's side by side.  Based on the responses to this thread, I think there's a lot of guys out there who have put a lot of thought into their home road, creating their fictional history, route maps and traffic sources.

I started out a million years ago with a free-lance road, the Laurel Valley, set in southwest Pennsylvania.  I have built up quite a roster over the years, so when I started working on my Western Maryland-themed layout about 10 years ago, I decided to provide an interchange point for the LRV.

Now, Laurel Valley coal drags make regular appearances on the WM, and they provide some through freight via a connection with the east and westbound alpha jets.

Lee 

[PA&ERR]

THIS THREAD IS FOUR YEARS OLD!  If you have something to add to the comments, great!  Please don't try to argue with someone about what they said FOUR YEARS AGO!

 

Not only is he arguing with a 4 year post, he's dragging in stuff about Tyco and scratchbuilding that was never mentioned.  Apparently those with a different point of view are Tyco modelers - the Ultimate Insult.  And those who agree are all locomotive scratchbuilders par excellence - the Hallowed Ground.

Must be a full moon out tonight.

Enjoy

Paul 

Didn't you hear? The next RPM meeting is going to be held in the Bohemian Grove!

-George

[Geared Steam]

THIS THREAD IS FOUR YEARS OLD!  If you have something to add to the comments, great!  Please don't try to argue with someone about what they said FOUR YEARS AGO!

When did you get appointed moderator?

I don't think I've read a post by you yet that isn't arguing with somebody.  I just couldn't stand to see you start an argument with a ghost.

Here we go, I predict a several paragraph long response with many,many quotes and witty retorts. 

[secondhandmodeler]

THIS THREAD IS FOUR YEARS OLD!  If you have something to add to the comments, great!  Please don't try to argue with someone about what they said FOUR YEARS AGO!

When did you get appointed moderator?

I don't think I've read a post by you yet that isn't arguing with somebody.  I just couldn't stand to see you start an argument with a ghost.

[marknewton]

Must be a full moon out tonight...

Yeah, must be - you're out barking up the wrong tree.

[Flashwave]

Not dead here, Half Moon Orion & Northern is free lanced. And by the way, I like the puns. They're funny.

(HO&N as an acronym tands for the two scales dad and I run)

[METRO]

Actually I freelanced a LOT of my layout.  The main city is freelanced, the islands it's on are freelanced, the mountain range west of the city is freelanced. Aparently in my world the Laurentians had a couple more offshoots, and there are about 12 million more people in Ontario.

The main railroads are also freelanced.  The Selenian Lines Commission is a mass transit system based loosely on the MTA, and the Selene International Port Commission is a government owned belt line that is a mixture of the IHB, Brooklyn Terminal and is all Alco like the GBW.

Cheers!

~METRO 

[IRONROOSTER]

THIS THREAD IS FOUR YEARS OLD!  If you have something to add to the comments, great!  Please don't try to argue with someone about what they said FOUR YEARS AGO!

 

Not only is he arguing with a 4 year post, he's dragging in stuff about Tyco and scratchbuilding that was never mentioned.  Apparently those with a different point of view are Tyco modelers - the Ultimate Insult.  And those who agree are all locomotive scratchbuilders par excellence - the Hallowed Ground.

Must be a full moon out tonight.

Enjoy

Paul 

 

[luvadj]

I don't think so...our layout is pure freelanced and we like imagining wherever we want to be running our trains.

[Geared Steam]

I find prototype modeling too restrictive and anal FOR ME. Malcolm Furlow and John Allen are my heroes.

I'm with you here, I like "personality" in a layout, it draws my interest more. I can appreciate strict proto modeling and the work that goes into it, but, "believable freelanced" is more enjoyable to me.

[marknewton]

THIS THREAD IS FOUR YEARS OLD!  If you have something to add to the comments, great!  Please don't try to argue with someone about what they said FOUR YEARS AGO!

When did you get appointed moderator?

[twhite]

Kind of fascinating that this 5-year old thread is alive and well. 

There is an in-between of "Freelance" and "Prototypical" and that's "Proto-lance", which as I understand (and practice) is adopting prototype locomotives and rolling stock to a 'freelance' setting.  Hence my own Yuba River Sub.  I happen to run Rio Grande big steam in the California Sierra Nevada mountains (Rio Grande never made it this far).  Now I don't run generic steamers with Rio Grande decals slapped on, I run models of steam locomotives that are based on actual Rio Grande prototypes (which of course, these days, means brass).  According to my 'history', the Rio Grande decided on their own entry-way into California after the Western Pacific became independent.  SP had Donner Pass, WP had the Feather River Canyon, so the Rio Grande chose a mid-point between the two, the Yuba River watershed.  And since I also like SP big steam, it was easy to get trackage rights for Cab-forwards to charge up Yuba Summit when their Donner Pass line was clogged with traffic, or one of the snowsheds had burned down. 

It's fun.  I get to run both my favorite railroads over trackage that represents the particular Middle and North Fork Yuba River Sierra Nevada country that I grew up in (and country that largely never saw a railroad, BTW).  So, for me, it's the best of both worlds.   I run prototypically researched models of favorite steam, and I model the Yuba River scenery as accurately as I can, given my particular talents.   I have been chided a little about my propensity for Missabe Yellowstones, but I can even explain that--prototypically, the Rio Grande borrowed about 8 of them for use during the winters of WWII.  I simply decided to have my 3 assume the never-was 3900 Rio Grande series.  Rio Grande 2-8-8-4's?  Nah!  But they look nice, especially simmering in the Nevada City yards next to the actual Rio Grande L-131 2-8-8-2's and the handsome Baldwin L-105-4-6-6-4's (and what, do you ask, are fleet-footed Challengers doing in the heavy grades of the high Sierra, right?). 

So, for everyone reading, I can always use the tired old excuse: Hey, it's MY railroad and I'll do whatever I want!   But I try and do it as a modeler who likes to see satisfying results--if only for myself. 

Tom

[secondhandmodeler]

THIS THREAD IS FOUR YEARS OLD!  If you have something to add to the comments, great!  Please don't try to argue with someone about what they said FOUR YEARS AGO!

[marknewton]

Now wp8thsub, I take some exception to what you wrote, first "Prototype modelers tend to adopt higher modeling standards. As a result, their models tend to be of higher average quality than those of hobbyists as a whole and are more presentable in photos. " So prototypers are better modelers that freelances? What an elitist attitude!!!

No, it's not elitist, it's a simple statement of fact. Most are better modellers. Or are you claiming that someone who runs out-of-the-box Tyco is as talented as someone who scratchbuilds their own locos?

I could say that prototypers are dullards who are incapable of creativity and have to have some one else do all the planning for them, including their hobby. Does that sting, or is it true?

No more or less true than to say that freelancers are dullards who are incapable of creativity, and have to copy someone else's model railroad out of a magazine or book.

Mark.

[marknewton]

Fred, that's all fine and good, for someone with the knowledge and skills to carry it off, which I reckon you must have.

But I've seen so many freelance layouts that were neither realistic or plausible, because the builder lacked any real knowledge or insight into how things work. They didn't know much about railroads, history, architecture, graphic design, economics, geography, geology or botany, for starters.

I would argue that to build a freelance layout that is realistic and plausible, you need to have a good understanding of all these things. Ironically, the people who would most benefit from a bit of prototype research seem to be the ones most hostile to the idea.

But in the meantime, I'll go with what Ray Breyer stated in an earlier post - many freelance layouts suck.

All the best,

Mark.

[fwright]

Personally, I enjoy engineering and fleshing out a vision into a reality.  Therefore, realistic free-lancing appeals to me.  I am engineering what might have been had history been slightly different.  The research of the prototype modelers is essential to this task.  Their research into what practices various prototype railroads used, and why, lead me to implement suitable practices for my free-lance lines.

I've enjoyed poring over maps to figure out a realistic routing for my fictitious railways across Oregon.  Sometimes, the names of real towns are used.  Other times, I wanted a particular name that didn't exist along my intended route.

Lebanon is an example for my Port Orford & Elk River Railway & Navigation Company.  The fictious logging railway was able to compete with its closer-to-market California competition by being able to offer famous Port Orford Cedar, and a little bit of Alaska yellow cedar and myrtle wood, in addition to the standard redwood.  Lebanon, Oregon is actually in Northern Oregon.  But for me, Lebanon is a fictious town in Southern Oregon where my standard and narrow gauge lines interchange.

Designing locomotive and car rosters that suit and would have been useful and profitable on these free-lance lines is another point of interest.

In other words, free-lancing opens up the ability to design my own world, while still being realistic and plausible.

my choice

Fred W 

[snagletooth]

Nope, not dead.

If NS ever decides to do a "heritage" scheme like that on a SD80MAC with the same number, does that mean your no longer a freelancer? Or would the railroad now be considered to be prototype modeling?