Remember, it will greatly add to the value of your house if you decide to sell it, because the real living space will be enlarged if you add heat and air upstairs. So, it's an investment more than simply an expense. If you can install the ductwork yourself, then the cost will be greatly reduced, and you may find that it will only take a few years to pay it back. If you're looking at a wood or pellet stove, well, that might end up costing more even in up-front costs.
Call a heating contractor and get an estimate. Around here, that would be free. Let him know that you can do some of the ductwork yourself. (Some guys won't like that. If the ductwork is done poorly, then they have to fix it, but if you can do it well it should be OK. I've never done that stuff, so I don't know what's involved.)
As for the pellets, well, the right way to get them upstairs is by rail, using a "whole-house helix" design. You load the pellets downstairs, and then run them up on a train. G-gauge is probably best for this.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasley wrote:Gub, how do you heat the rest of your house? We use oil-powered forced hot water, and we have over the years added zones to heat the upstairs rooms and a new addition. It meant hiring plumbers and some up-front expense, but in the long run it's a lot more fuel-efficient, comfortable and convenient than trying to run electric. Besides that, it's a lot safer, too. You might want to look into extending your existing heating system into the new train room. You can still zone-control it so that you don't run it if you don't need it. It's a bit more difficult than hot water, but you can even run thin ducting from a hot-air system up through existing walls.
MisterBeasley;
Our existing system is a High Efficiency Forced Air Natural Gas Furnace with Central Air. I don't think it is sized for the additional space, but it might be worth looking into. Our biggest problem with our system at present is that when we turn the air on on a hot day, the downstairs cools off relatively quickly while the upstairs requires and additional day or two to acheive a comfortable level.
Assuming that if the existing system is sized to accomodate the attic space then I would think I would have to have additional blowers put into the ducts to move the air 2 1/2 storys up. Is that practical? Also I am assuming that I would have to open up the wall to install the ductwork, which can be donesince i have the hallways yet to do. This of course will mean theregisters will be in the floor rather than the kneewalls. Anybody see a problem with this. Of ourse the deciding factor will be the cost. A lot of the work i can do myself ... but then again. Just thinking out loud.
MisterBeasley, you have given me alot to consider. Think I'll need to buy a lottery ticket. But ... then again ...
Thanks for the suggestions.
GUB
inch53 wrote:Mornin, seen we was back on page two, thought I'd have an irish coffee here. Kinda cool n damp today anyway.Nigel,,, good to see ya round, hopw ya stop back in.Mike,,, what kind of engine is that GP38-2. Sounds like a good one to pull all that.Gub,,, sounds like you have a long winters work in the attic, just make sure the wiring can handle the load of electric heaters before you get to far along, if you go that way. We have a pellet stove here, runs bout half cheaper than propane or electric heat. Then you have to carry pellets up and ashes outBest get to chores, think I've got grandkids todayinch
Inch;
My thought is to have a electrical sub-panel installed in the attic prior to starting any of the renovations. I had the foresight to run a few lines from the main panel when we had ripped out the plaster in the lower two rooms. So I am fairly confident that a sub-panel will be no problem.
The pellet stove we looked at recently rain on wood or corn but was very expensive as I recall. Not being familier with this type of heating, how do the pellets come? Do I buy them in 50 lb. sacks or what? I could see that carrying sacks of pellets up to the attic may get a little tiring after a while. Assuming that they come in 50 lb. bags how long would one last? Any ideas? I'm going to have to dig out the info again, but I seem to think the model we were looking at was a high efficiency unit and I had thought the salesman said it was virtually ash free. But then again ....Is your's on a thermastate?
Thnaks for the info.
Hey Inch, an Irish coffee sounds good, especially on these cool mornings out here on the porch.
Our propane dealer filled up our tank yesterday, getting ready for to light the fireplace logs soon.
Nothing like sit-in around a nice toasty fire with a hot brandy or a hot toddy, eh!
Ryan BoudreauxThe Piedmont Division Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger eraCajun Chef Ryan
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/4309
trolleyboy wrote: Good evening gents, figured that I would wander in andcheck the place out.Hopefully there might be sme good Alexander Keith's in the fridge. Gub- I was interested in reading that you are building in an attic. I am as well, just wondering what you were / are doing to combat the hot / cold. Mr B- Nice looking haggis n beer cars,you gotta love those old billboard cars. I suspect that the info that both you and Ed dredged up pretty much tell the story as to why they no longer are painted that way,too bad those old colourfull cars really broke up the string upon string of boxcar red cars.How's the PCC subway comming BTW Rob
Good evening gents, figured that I would wander in andcheck the place out.Hopefully there might be sme good Alexander Keith's in the fridge.
Gub- I was interested in reading that you are building in an attic. I am as well, just wondering what you were / are doing to combat the hot / cold.
Mr B- Nice looking haggis n beer cars,you gotta love those old billboard cars. I suspect that the info that both you and Ed dredged up pretty much tell the story as to why they no longer are painted that way,too bad those old colourfull cars really broke up the string upon string of boxcar red cars.How's the PCC subway comming BTW
Rob
Evening All;
Well I am another step closer to the Train Room. The office is finished except for the shelving, which I hope to start on this weekend. The Kitchen needs one more door frame trimed out and I can call that room finished.
No beer tonight. It's raining and I hear it is to turn quite cool. A little more seasonal for fall and that means winter is on it's way. Time to switch from beer to Scotch or perhaps a little Red Wine.
Rob;
Thanks for asking. The first thing i have to do is add a 2" x 2" to the rafters throughout. This will allow enough room to add insulation in the roof. Of course I will have to make sure that I have proper ventilation which will necesitate the installation of eave vents, which i will do next spring. I already have the back side done. Now I need to do the front and both sides of the house. The roof vents were put in a number of years ago when we put a new roof on. So that takes care of the venting.
Next I will insulate the rafters and kneewalls with batt insulation, and then add a vapour barrier. In all likelyhood I will finish the entire area with drywall and carpet the floor.
As far as heating the area I was thinking of using either a small electric fireplace unit or electric baseboard heaters. I thought of a small gas fireplace, but I don't think I can find one small enough to suit the space. I had also played around with the idea of a wood pellet or corn stove. I think the cost will be prohibitive and in the end I will end up with either the electric fire place or base board heaters.
Air Conditioning will be another challenge. I have essentially two choices. The first is a wall unit which only requires a drain to the outside. I saw this at a B&B I had stayed at a couple of years ago. It is actually designed for older homes like mine. My other choice is a portable unit that sits on the floor and can be moved around the room. With this one you have a choice. You can get it with a drain or you can empty a pail once a day. This one has a vent as well. It's quite similar to a dryer vent. Both could be routed out through the eaves.
At present I am only in the planning stage. Things could change before I actually get started.
That's it for me tonight. It's been a long day. Think I'll finish my Scotch, read a little and go to bed.
Good Night All. Will check back tomorrow.
Evening All!
Saw the light on and thought I'd stop in for a brew. Top Idea the "Beer Barn"!
Regards,
Nigel
Afternoon all, I'll have a cold one here. Bout time for the CFO to get home, but she's leaving this evening for awhile, so, it's fun time laters
Worked outside again today, I be ready for a rain so I can get some rest.
WSOR,,, haven't seen any DUFF cars on Ebay even, hope you find one though
MR. B,,, liked the subway scene, looks nice.
Still got a cople things to do, so catch ya'll laters.
inch
Inch, Oh..... so that's where we are getting the stuff from in the CS!
Ed, thanks for the lesson on reefer billboards, I had no idea. You really do learn something new every day in this forum.
trolleyboy wrote:How's the PCC subway comming BTW
Thanks for asking. I'm just finishing up the last of my underground stations. It's under a liftoff, and I'm also working on the above-ground scenery in that area, so the station had to get done.
I had a dead space with a siding in the subway line, which leads off-layout as a possible future expansion line. I didn't really know how I was going to scenic it, but then I got to thinking about "Charlie on the MTA," and this was the result. That's Charlie's wife, by the way. She's not a "permanent display," as you might tell by the metal base that's still attached to her feet, so I posed her here for the photo opportunity.
This is the two-tracked Penny Lane station. Since the PCC car shares the tracks with the R-17 trains, I build a "lower mezzanine" level to match the platform height with the PCC's doors.
I've been looking for Duff beer reefers in HO. Any body have a line on where they are available? I saw one at Trainfest one year...Run with the Sprecher, Weber, Fox Head, Storck, Miller, Schiltz, Pabst, Blatz, and most of the other products that made Milwaukee famous. Rule G strictly enforced here. Make the money selling and hauling it, not drinking the stuff.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
Evening all, I'll have another double brandy here,
Didn't get done in with the cabinets in the shed today, darned artheritis got the best of me. Finish it tomorrow, other than putting stuff away. Got to get done outside, rains coming in afternoon again.
Squeaky,, when ya gets to ST. Louis, you'll be bout 3 hours west of me. Guessing you'll be coming in onI-44 from Texas. Hope ya has a good trip
TA,,, realy liked the pic link. Now that package store has volume sales.
ED,,, I don't know how you do it. If some one has a ???? , you find an ansewer. thanks
Time fur bed, sure hope I sleep tonight, hate these 3 hour nights and no nappy
MisterBeasley wrote: I started looking briefly for information about the reasoning behind the banning of "billboard" advertising on freight cars in the 1930's, a prohibition which I guess extends to this day. This is why our colorful and exotic "beer reefers" aren't seen anymore. I found one reference that said it was done by the Interstate Commerce Commission in 1937, and another that said it was some kind of anti-trust action taken in 1933. Does anyone have any real info on this? To me, it just sounds like Big Government run amok. Was there some kind of logic associated with this decision?
I started looking briefly for information about the reasoning behind the banning of "billboard" advertising on freight cars in the 1930's, a prohibition which I guess extends to this day. This is why our colorful and exotic "beer reefers" aren't seen anymore. I found one reference that said it was done by the Interstate Commerce Commission in 1937, and another that said it was some kind of anti-trust action taken in 1933. Does anyone have any real info on this? To me, it just sounds like Big Government run amok. Was there some kind of logic associated with this decision?
Found this on another website. Sounds pretty much similar to what I have heard before:
"Billboard reefers and box cars became the victim of an ICC ruling in 1934 making all future lettering smaller than 12" and were banned from interchange in 1937. Probably most of the cars in beer company paint schemes were gone when prohibition kicked in about 1920 and not seen again. By the mid 40's most all would have been repainted. Some cars though in a less colorful paint were in service up to the 60's. The 'Billboard' outlaw ruling was only if the car was carrying another product. If the owner was only going to ship his own product in the car, the 'Billboard' lettering could stay. A good example of this was the HAMX cars that carried Hamm's beer from the brewery in St Paul.
The main reason for the ruling in the first place was when shippers objected to the railroads delivering cars to their plants painted for a competitor's product. The reefers were not owned by the companies, but rather by refrigerator car companies like URTX, GATX etc. The actual "outlawing" was a rule that shippers could refuse to load a car if it was lettered for a competitor, and the railroad and refrigerator car company had to deliver a different car at their own expense. Rather than face the hassle of trying to keep track of which car could go to whom, the reefer companies simply stopped using the advertising lettering. In the case where a shipper used enough cars that he actually owned the reefer line, the lettering stayed ("Swift" is an example that comes to mind). "
Regards
Ed
inch53 wrote:More than ready for a cold one here. Been working out in my shed taking out work benchs and putting cabinets in. Been all day and still ain't done Ryan,,, been shipping beer already were to you think the CS gets it. MR. B,, nice collection of beer cars. Always wanted to try haggis, but have never had a chance. Don't find that fancy stuff round here. Squeaky,,, Schlitz was a couple years ago, had some at the AL in Springfield IL. I haven't seen any Hamms for a long time. I buy what ever cheap anymore, mostly Milwaulkes Best. Need to get back outside and at least get the tools and that inside, back latters inch
More than ready for a cold one here.
Been working out in my shed taking out work benchs and putting cabinets in. Been all day and still ain't done
Ryan,,, been shipping beer already were to you think the CS gets it.
MR. B,, nice collection of beer cars. Always wanted to try haggis, but have never had a chance. Don't find that fancy stuff round here.
Squeaky,,, Schlitz was a couple years ago, had some at the AL in Springfield IL. I haven't seen any Hamms for a long time. I buy what ever cheap anymore, mostly Milwaulkes Best.
Need to get back outside and at least get the tools and that inside, back latters
MisterBeasley wrote: tigerstripe wrote:8:30 in the morning, its Miller Time! "Beer. It's not just for breakfast anymore..." I started looking briefly for information about the reasoning behind the banning of "billboard" advertising on freight cars in the 1930's, a prohibition which I guess extends to this day. This is why our colorful and exotic "beer reefers" aren't seen anymore. I found one reference that said it was done by the Interstate Commerce Commission in 1937, and another that said it was some kind of anti-trust action taken in 1933. Does anyone have any real info on this? To me, it just sounds like Big Government run amok. Was there some kind of logic associated with this decision?
tigerstripe wrote:8:30 in the morning, its Miller Time!
"Beer. It's not just for breakfast anymore..."
I started looking briefly for information about the reasoning behind the banning of "billboard" advertising on freight cars in the 1930's, a prohibition which I guess extends to this day. This is why our colorful and exotic "beer reefers" aren't seen anymore. I found one reference that said it was done by the Interstate Commerce Commission in 1937, and another that said it was some kind of anti-trust action taken in 1933.
Does anyone have any real info on this? To me, it just sounds like Big Government run amok. Was there some kind of logic associated with this decision?
8:30 in the morning, its Miller Time!
First one went down really nice, one more then its my bedtime.
Tomorrow is my Friday so after completing my honey do list, hopefully
I will have some time for trains. Planning to finish up the benchwork.
In 22 years I have made 2 false starts, a plywood pacific, a pink foam pacific,
several modules and 2 operational layouts that I would consider 85% + complete.
I keep telling myself that those were just for practice and this is " the one".
Like most things it looks good on paper, so we'll see.
Shouldn't take me more than 5 years and a couple hundred six packs. http://www.railimages.com/gallery/dennisparrish/aac
Ah, a chance to show off my own collection...
The Pabst car is ancient, and came from a yard sale box-o-trains my Mom found for me back in the 1960's. The Mule Beer and Harvard Ale cars are Greenway products, and the last car, well, it's not beer, but rather haggis, that fine Scottish delicacy made from the entrails of a sheep. I made the car from an Athearn BB kit, using decals by Fritz Milhaupt. See http://www.wyomingyard.com/haggiscar/ for details and downloads.
Maybe, maybe not, but you won't notice the flaws as much.
Brad
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts
Evening all Cold one here,
Thought I'd post pics of some of my beer car, got some more in boxes but no place to put them till I get the layout done.
You guys keep talking bout home brewing, I may have to get set up for some and try it.
MR Beasley,,,,Thanks for the link on Bedford Depot. Some interesting reading there there.
In between grandkids, watching foot ball and naps, have managed to work on my layout some. Den- NE games on now, so back to the train room