MTH HO PRR K-4: Dead or Alive?

[Anonymous]

Jeff, your comments are very fair and objective. [:)]

[jondrd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The MTH K-4 model is a knockout, just fabulous. I just can't wait until it gets here. I'm counting the days. It will set a new standard in HO for quality and performance.

QC: We have to remember, that just like BLI units, the MTH K4 will also be made in China. So it's China, not MTH, that's handling the quality control.

While China may be handling quality control the real control of quality has got to be in the contract drawn between manufacturing(China) and design/engineering/marketing(US). I don't believe any businessman(person) would just accept anything that comes off the production line. The contract would specify what is acceptable and what is not. The contract specifications protect the US company's reputation and marketability of their
product. I don't know how the US company goes about assuring they're getting contract compliant product but I would assume there is some kind of onsite presence to protect US company's interests. A lot has been said on the forum that is unfavorable to MTH but I don't think MTH would put the market acceptance of a new product solely in China's hands(quality control). JMHO


Jon

[jnichols]

Actually, I would have preferred a Big Boy to the K4, but in MTH's defense the K4 is a nice looking model. I saw it at the WGH show when it went through our area and even spoke to a sales rep about it for a bit. I didn't see it run, and the rep made a few comments concerning the DCC side of things not being 100% at this point (problems with DCC packet timing - are you listening Soundtraxx?).

I posted information about MTH's decision to do a K4 a few weeks back, but it degraded into the same hate mongering drivel that all MTH threads end up being so I didn't follow up. Suffice it to say MTH had their reasons for doing a K4 and claimed they got screwed by Korean Brass (may or may not be true, who knows at this point).

Jeff

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DigitalGriffin

rripperger:
I
Timing wise, the only thing he could have done worse is build a big boy. 8-)

Or another F unit.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

My advice to PRR fans is be ready to take advantage of a "fire sale" on MTH K-4's around the end of 2006 or in early 2007. It's going to be a matter of too little, too late, in a marketplace that already has a plentiful supply of quality, sound equipped, K-4's available.

CNJ831

Yep. I'm ready, willing and able to buy one (if it's any good, of course) the day after Trainworld starts its 'inventory blowout'... I'd say about $199 or so is the street price I expect within 6 months of launch... and there won't be a second production run to worry about.

[DigitalGriffin]

rripperger:
All of the above. Including focus groups and test market placement. They also analyze trends of similar product releases.

One things for sure, MTH must not be hurting too bad. He has his office/warehouse in Columbia's tech circle. And as someone who works in Columbia's tech circle, I can tell you it is NOT cheap land to rent or own.

I think he can call the K4 a lost cause. I imagine he's waiting for BLI to slow or stop their production so he can hop in to fill the void.

Timing wise, the only thing he could have done worse is build a big boy. 8-)

[MidlandPacific]

As a matter of interest, does anyone have any insight into the way in which the industry (a coarse term, I know, in that it lumps the large and the small together) does market research? Do they contact known buyers, troll websites, haunt trainshows, or simply make decisions based on experience and intuition?

[MisterBeasley]

Hmmm....there has been speculation over whether MTHFool is an employee of MTH, or simply an enthusiastic consumer. Well, since the consumers don't have this thing yet, I assume that he must have "inside connections." Either that or he's just blowing smoke.

And to you, Ted E. Bear, I too can say, "Whoopee for the April delivery." Yeah, like I care. Actually, once the product is on the street, then people can see if it's really up to the hype. That should end the speculation once and for all.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The MTH K-4 model is a knockout, just fabulous.

------Really? Have you seen it up close? How well does it run? How's the detailing compare to a BLI K4? What is it that makes it fabulous?

Not dissing you MTHRules, but when you post these types of comments..................what are you using to back them up? [?]

[CNJ831]

My advice to PRR fans is be ready to take advantage of a "fire sale" on MTH K-4's around the end of 2006 or in early 2007. It's going to be a matter of too little, too late, in a marketplace that already has a plentiful supply of quality, sound equipped, K-4's available.

CNJ831

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The MTH K-4 model is a knockout, just fabulous. I just can't wait until it gets here. I'm counting the days. It will set a new standard in HO for quality and performance.

That's Cool, MTHRules.
You may have some merit. I feel the same way about the diesel Tsuanmi. There's quite a few products many of us are waiting for.

Perhaps the MTH K4 will be a very smooth runner with nice sound. However, just as with any new product we can't say for sure that it will set any standards until it hits the market, especially since it's MTH's first HO venture.

The unit will have to be purchased and operated by customers. Realistic market feedback ( postive, negative, or both) will come after a year. Upon reviewing sales records, warranty issues, and customer feedback, MTH will be able to determine if their venture is worth investing into further [8D] $$$$ or if it should be dropped. [V][V] That's the nature of business.

The hurdles MTH is facing, however nice the K4 may be, is that

1. HO sound equipped locomotives have been on the market 4 years, so the high excitement that BLI first generated on the HO market has simmered down and sound is now part of the "norm" in the HO and N hobby.
2. Many sound equipped K4s are already on the market.
3. New BLI K4s are still available at discounted prices,
4. MTH's K4 model lists a high price tag.
5. Of course, forgive me for mentioning, there is still the hostility towards MTH products from modelers and some LHS owners. [V][V]

*Plus....while the unit is slated to be compatible with DCC throttles and systems there may or may not be potential "bugs" within the compatibility curve.

QC: We have to remember, that just like BLI units, the MTH K4 will also be made in China. So it's China, not MTH, that's handling the quality control.

[dinwitty]

when I could buy a Bowser K4 kit cheaper, and build it, part of the fun is building it, I dunno if I would ever go to MTH,

but not a real pennsy fan anyways.

[Anonymous]

Whoopee for the April delivery.[:D]

[Anonymous]

In reference to MTH setting new standards for performance, Trix has set the standard for running quality performance in HO up to now, and it is a high standard. Sound is different story however, and installed sound would have to go to BLI in general. They started the current sound trend when they included sound installed RTR models and continue to bring out more models almost monthly for both BLI and PCM combined companies. The fact that PCM will be using Loksound and not QSI has something to do with their policies and marketing.

One would wonder how many K4's could be sold this year since both BLI and MTH might have sound model K4's to offer. The MTH model is almost a year behind schedule and has not shown up yet, but that might be due to its being so great, on paper. When you actually ship something, they seem to be less than advertised. With the revised schedule, makes you wonder if they had second and third thoughts about bringing in the model. It seems to me they were advertising it the same time as the first run of BLI PRR K4 models.

I purchased the BLI K4 last year, but you can never have too many K4's. The PRR had 425 each K4's at one time.

Speaking of reruns, why did BLI bring in the same numbers on the PRR J1 class engine?? The PRR had 125 each of those, and BLI imported a second run with the same exact numbers as the first run. You can only buy so many models with the same numbers without having duplicates and I decided not to renumber any of those at this time.

[bcammack]

His keyboard probably shorted out from all of the saliva and he had to buy a replacement. [:)] I recommend one of those silicon, "roll-up" keyboards. They're waterproof.

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The MTH K-4 model is a knockout, just fabulous. I just can't wait until it gets here. I'm counting the days. It will set a new standard in HO for quality and performance.

Oh thank goodness he is back. I was getting really worried that something awful might have happened to either the K4 or our friendly neighborhood MTH fan. This thread has been running for 4 days without a word! Well we can relax, the equilibrium of the universe has been restored. [}:)]

[Anonymous]

The MTH K-4 model is a knockout, just fabulous. I just can't wait until it gets here. I'm counting the days. It will set a new standard in HO for quality and performance.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nfmisso

QUOTE: Originally posted by bangert1
......Lionel started HO at least one time and maybe twice on the past and stopped after simular problems with quality. They did a GP30 about twenty or more years ago that looked great but ran like a slot car. I have some of those along with four of the GS4 Daylights that came out in 1976. They are nice looking but I could never use them. I think the molds went to Bachmann, but I am not sure about that.

For Lionel's 2nd (or was it third?) go at HO, they contracted with Kader Industries for the trains (GP30, GS4, etc). Kader owns Bachmann. When Lionel bailed, Kader re-issued the models as Bachmann. Both the GP30 and GS4 shells were far ahead of thier time in terms of accuracy and detailing.

Thanks for the information about Kader and Bachmann. I was aware that the same GS4 molds were used to make the Lionel and then the Bachmann, but the connection was unclear.

You are correct about the quality of the shells being far ahead of their time. Too bad they did not work on the drive chassis.
Thanks

[Anonymous]

Just rec'd e-mail from MTH Customer Service. They "expect" to ship the HO K-4s to their dealers in April, 2006. They apologized for the long delay.

[AntonioFP45]

Back in the late 70s a good friend of mine purchased a Lionel HO GS-4 Daylight steamer. The body was attractive, but performance was just a step above Tyco and noisy.

He later put on layaway, and purchased a gorgeous painted brass Westside GS-4! That was a smart move. Today it's DCC equipped and features an awesome working Mars Light!

As for MTH in HO:
As I've stated they have a tough battle if they seriously want to make a go at it in the HO market.

[nfmisso]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bangert1
......Lionel started HO at least one time and maybe twice on the past and stopped after simular problems with quality. They did a GP30 about twenty or more years ago that looked great but ran like a slot car. I have some of those along with four of the GS4 Daylights that came out in 1976. They are nice looking but I could never use them. I think the molds went to Bachmann, but I am not sure about that.

For Lionel's 2nd (or was it third?) go at HO, they contracted with Kader Industries for the trains (GP30, GS4, etc). Kader owns Bachmann. When Lionel bailed, Kader re-issued the models as Bachmann. Both the GP30 and GS4 shells were far ahead of thier time in terms of accuracy and detailing.

[selector]

I sure enjoy seeing all the passion and sharing in this type of thread. Way to go, fellas.

I have a Lionel Challenger, but I asked the agent ad Canadian model trains to have a good look at the running gear and to test the model thoroughly before they shipped it to me. There was a note saying that the rods did not bind, but that I should be careful when handling the loco to avoid bending anything. I am happy to say that it runs well. It sounds....okay,...I guess...but what can you expect out of even two 1.5" speakers in a metal cabinet?

Not that I have looked so closely, but it would seem that it is on a par with the BLI metal K4s.

-Crandell

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

IF the K4 was originally a lionel project, and IF the Challenger and Turbine are such poor quality (I sort of dispute that, but I own neither - my feeling is the bigger problem was Lionel trying to be Lionel and thinking they can get su, err, modelers to pay $800 for a $300 loco), the BLI did a major rework on it before releasing it under their own name. The only people complaining about the BI K4 are the extreme rivet counter PRR fans, and a good bit of that has to do with the fact that BLI didn't work with the PRRT&HS to design the model. They ARE working with them for the new PCM I1 though.

--Randy

Randy

You may be right about the Lionel being Lionel and trying to price the models too high to start with. I can say that I would still have purchased both the Challenger and Turbine knowing they had some problems, but I own both of them and the quality is about what we expected ten or twenty years ago, not today.
The sound on the Challenger is good and even better if you replace the speakers with good ones. The Turbine only uses two of the four trucks to power it and I will use it with a couple of GP9's like the real one used.

The quality of the Challenger really was poor running quality. In our group, five out of five needed work to get them to run without binding or other problems that should not happen. The front screws on the connecting rods actually hit the slides for the pistons and locked up. You had to reverse the engine to get it going again. This is not quality and the product was not ready for prime time.

Some of the second run I understand might have been better and the prices was cut in half, but the Genesis were out by that time and they run great. I have five of those and not one has a running quality problem.

I still wish Lionel could continue HO as all of the manufacturers are needed. Most of the early products from any of the startups have been below average, but time and experience should have made them better. Lionel started HO at least one time and maybe twice on the past and stopped after simular problems with quality. They did a GP30 about twenty or more years ago that looked great but ran like a slot car. I have some of those along with four of the GS4 Daylights that came out in 1976. They are nice looking but I could never use them. I think the molds went to Bachmann, but I am not sure about that.

The BLI K4 is nice and I like it fairly well. It is an upscale model for BLI, but my engine ran poorly until it got broken in. It did not require modifications to the running gear, just running on the rollers until it ran better. I can't image the MTH engine being any better than the group of K4's already out there so it had better be special if they want to sell it to us.

[ndbprr]

That last comment about BLI and the PRRT&HS isn't exactly correct. They asked for advice and ignored some of it. Some of it they did accept.

[rrinker]

I'm sure some confusion comes from the on and off relationship between MTH and Lionel. Certain Lionel locos (in O anyway) were designed (and possibly built) under contract by MTH. Two of the Reading T-1 variations come to mind - you'll see those sold as Lionel, while other variations are sold by MTH.
IF the K4 was originally a lionel project, and IF the Challenger and Turbine are such poor quality (I sort of dispute that, but I own neither - my feeling is the bigger problem was Lionel trying to be Lionel and thinking they can get su, err, modelers to pay $800 for a $300 loco), the BLI did a major rework on it before releasing it under their own name. The only people complaining about the BI K4 are the extreme rivet counter PRR fans, and a good bit of that has to do with the fact that BLI didn't work with the PRRT&HS to design the model. They ARE working with them for the new PCM I1 though.

--Randy

[ndbprr]

More MH B*** S***. They are the originators of life itself in their eyes. Next we will see them sue the Pennsylvania railroad and its later ownersfor stealing their design for the real enough is enough

[jnichols]

While I have no other evidence that the HO model was involved in the stolen items, I have no reason to believe otherwise. Just because it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean it didn't happen you know... [;)] As far as the model originally being an HO scale Lionel release, there is no smoke and mirrors there. That information is widely known and has been discussed on the various forums by people in the know.

I see if I can dig up any more information about this as it is an interesting topic for me.

Jeff

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

JNichols,

The MTH rep stated that the BLI K4 was originally a Lionel unit, copied from MTH? Interesting. Yet, this was not mentioned before on this forum nor was their any mention during 2003-2005 when the lawsuits and flames were flying.

Is there any info that verifies this? No disrespect to you, I find it intriguing but am still skeptical. When the MTH vs. Lionel suit was filed, all we and the rest of the public read about were the O scale plans. Nothing about an HO K4.

Interesting comment. When Lionel started HO, they must have had a list and prototype models being developed as an ongoing HO project. The first two were shipped before the court decision came down and HO was cancelled. Part of the problem was the quality of the first two projects. I own both of them and both are poor in overall running quality and detail. I know many have said and will say they are happy with their Lionel HO, but both of my units required major work to run properly. I also would like the LED's to work when I get a model.

It might be true about the K4 origins, but who in the hobby world could verify the statement??? Would this be part of the settlement in product value instead of money??? Does that possibly mean we might see MTH Veranda's and Challengers??

Time might tell us these questions.

[Anonymous]

I for one would like my leg back now that Jnichols has been tugging at it! Next to be revealed is that MTH invented HO scale and will tax every HO modeler for patent infringement.
Enough of the funny stories for today, except for Big Al being a "fire fighter".

Will

[AntonioFP45]

JNichols,

The MTH rep stated that the BLI K4 was originally a Lionel unit, copied from MTH? Interesting. Yet, this was not mentioned before on this forum nor was their any mention during 2003-2005 when the lawsuits and flames were flying.

Is there any info that verifies this? No disrespect to you, I find it intriguing but am still skeptical. When the MTH vs. Lionel suit was filed, all we and the rest of the public read about were the O scale plans. Nothing about an HO K4.