MTH HO PRR K-4: Dead or Alive?

[Anonymous]

Any word on this loco's potential production and/or release? MTH hasn't returned my e-mail query. Thanks.

[tstage]

Three guesses who's eventually going to pipe in...and the first two don't count...

[Anonymous]

Or the first 5 pages.

BLI has them beat anyhow. Dont get the trolls started on the MTH... those are letters that stirs up strong feelings around here.

[Anonymous]

Interesting too, that Trainworld just sent out an email offering BLI K-4s for $229... Quite a price. If anything made me think the MTH was imminent, a price drop from BLI would be it...

Oddly, the long wait has made me lose interest. I've got several BLI's now, my K4 roster is pretty much rounded out. Has nothing to do with the "debate" over MTH, they just took so long I've already gone with other options...

[Anonymous]

Not seen or heard anything of this loco - they'd be crazy to release another K4 anyway (BLI have it pretty well covered) even without the bad feeling they've managed to stir up. I suspect it may be quietly dropped!

[AntonioFP45]

Hello David,

Word was sometime in 2006.

No need to worry about flaming. IMHO, fellow forum member MTHRules should feel welcome just like everyone else. We can all discuss this civily and share opinions.

MTH was reported to have spent quite a bit of money in developing this unit. Why a K4? We've all asked that. From what I've read a large number of MTH's customers model northeastern railroads, especially the Pennsy. But at the same time that's one model that competitors have already produced and the market seems already saturated with. Plus MTH's customers are large scale, not HO.

Time will tell. We've seen recently that more command control manufacturers are or will be making sound available. I had never even heard of "ZIMO", but apparently they're going to be offering some cool DCC Sound goodies as well for American locos. The more guys that throw their hat in the ring.........the better for us! [:D]

Though there have been or still are hard feelings about MTH; the stark reality is that even without the hard feelings...........if MTH does get into the HO market they're no longer going to be jumping into the command control arena.........it's more like the Command Control Stadium.

With the number of "muscle bound DCC players" growing, MTH would be one of the "smaller athletes" on the field. [8)] Not a criticism, but a basic reality.

Peace

[davekelly]

I may be wrong, but I think Zimo has been around for quite a long time. Unless I'm remembering things incorrectly I believe Zimo was around even before the NMRA standards. I'm sure someone is more up to speed on this than me.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45
[

Time will tell. We've seen recently that more command control manufacturers are or will be making sound available. I had never even heard of "ZIMO", but apparently they're going to be offering some cool DCC Sound goodies as well for American locos. The more guys that throw their hat in the ring.........the better for us! [:D]


With the number of "muscle bound DCC players" growing, MTH would be one of the "smaller athletes" on the field. [8)] Not a criticism, but a basic reality.

Peace

Antonio
Just a comment about ZIMO. For my money, their DCC decoders are the very best. Soundtraxx told me their goal was for the Tsunami drive to run as good as a Zimo.

We use them in the Genesis Challengers and the Trix Big Boy to get the best performance of any drive available.

I will be looking forward to Zimo bringing out more DCC items.

Thanks again for the information.

[tstage]

Zimo has been around...but mostly in Europe.

[AntonioFP45]

Sorry guys, I should have been clearer. I hadn't heard of Zimo producing American sound decoders before. From what I vaguely remember, which TStage mentions, they cater to the Europeon market.

[MisterBeasley]

I immediately noticed the MTH booth at Springfield. I avoided it because they stunk up the place, literally. They were one of the exhibitors who were constantly running smoke units in their engines. Anyone who is contemplating smoke-producing engines should realize that these things should be reserved for outdoor Garden layouts. Springfield was layed out in three buildings, and two, fortunately, were "non-smoking." I don't know if this was intentional, but I'm glad it worked out that way.

As I said, I didn't look at them closely, but everything I saw was O-gauge.

[jnichols]

Feelings about MTH aside, I did see the K4 on display at the train show two weekends ago here in SLC. My two cents worth was that it looked like a nice model, but I didn't get a chance to see it run. More importantly...

I spoke to one of the MTH reps in the booth (I can't remember his name right off), and we talked for a minute or two about various things. The topics I wanted answers about were centered around the PS3 system and the possibility of a DCS to DCC interface. While he wouldn't do anything buy speculate, I did get several nods and other reassuring gestures concerning these things. I also mentioned the K4 was a mistake for a first model in HO as BLI had already done it, and I was given some interesting information about this.

As many of you already know (this isn't really a secret), the BLI K4 was really a Lionel HO scale release, but due to the failure of Lionel's attempt to once again sell HO scale products, they dumped it last minute and BLI picked it up and ran with it. Now here is where it gets interesting, apparently the Lionel K4 was also one of the stolen projects from MTH (along with many other O scale models). I didn't realize an HO scale model was involved in this scandle, but according the rep I spoke with it was. Because Lionel removed themselves from the K4 project before MTH was awarded the suit, I'm speculating that MTH couldn't or wouldn't go after BLI for the copied K4. The long story short version of this is that MTH had to redesign their K4 to be "different" than the BLI K4, hence the added features such as sprung drivers and the added delay in shipment.

The fact remains the more I hear about the Lionel, BLI, Korean Brass relationship, the more I want to boycott their crap. It's funny that MTH takes such a beating on the forums, and so few people who do the bashing even have a clue what happened between these companies. While I've never thought MTH handled the PR side of these events very well, I don't think they are the bad guys everyone thinks they are.

Either way, it was nice to talk to someone from their camp about these products and events. And on a side note, I really like the new Proto 3-2 O scale stuff. These products will probably usher in a whole new breed of O scaler as time goes on (I know I've bought a few), and that's something that scale needs badly.

Night all!

Jeff

[AntonioFP45]

JNichols,

The MTH rep stated that the BLI K4 was originally a Lionel unit, copied from MTH? Interesting. Yet, this was not mentioned before on this forum nor was their any mention during 2003-2005 when the lawsuits and flames were flying.

Is there any info that verifies this? No disrespect to you, I find it intriguing but am still skeptical. When the MTH vs. Lionel suit was filed, all we and the rest of the public read about were the O scale plans. Nothing about an HO K4.

[Anonymous]

I for one would like my leg back now that Jnichols has been tugging at it! Next to be revealed is that MTH invented HO scale and will tax every HO modeler for patent infringement.
Enough of the funny stories for today, except for Big Al being a "fire fighter".

Will

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

JNichols,

The MTH rep stated that the BLI K4 was originally a Lionel unit, copied from MTH? Interesting. Yet, this was not mentioned before on this forum nor was their any mention during 2003-2005 when the lawsuits and flames were flying.

Is there any info that verifies this? No disrespect to you, I find it intriguing but am still skeptical. When the MTH vs. Lionel suit was filed, all we and the rest of the public read about were the O scale plans. Nothing about an HO K4.

Interesting comment. When Lionel started HO, they must have had a list and prototype models being developed as an ongoing HO project. The first two were shipped before the court decision came down and HO was cancelled. Part of the problem was the quality of the first two projects. I own both of them and both are poor in overall running quality and detail. I know many have said and will say they are happy with their Lionel HO, but both of my units required major work to run properly. I also would like the LED's to work when I get a model.

It might be true about the K4 origins, but who in the hobby world could verify the statement??? Would this be part of the settlement in product value instead of money??? Does that possibly mean we might see MTH Veranda's and Challengers??

Time might tell us these questions.

[jnichols]

While I have no other evidence that the HO model was involved in the stolen items, I have no reason to believe otherwise. Just because it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean it didn't happen you know... [;)] As far as the model originally being an HO scale Lionel release, there is no smoke and mirrors there. That information is widely known and has been discussed on the various forums by people in the know.

I see if I can dig up any more information about this as it is an interesting topic for me.

Jeff

[ndbprr]

More MH B*** S***. They are the originators of life itself in their eyes. Next we will see them sue the Pennsylvania railroad and its later ownersfor stealing their design for the real enough is enough

[rrinker]

I'm sure some confusion comes from the on and off relationship between MTH and Lionel. Certain Lionel locos (in O anyway) were designed (and possibly built) under contract by MTH. Two of the Reading T-1 variations come to mind - you'll see those sold as Lionel, while other variations are sold by MTH.
IF the K4 was originally a lionel project, and IF the Challenger and Turbine are such poor quality (I sort of dispute that, but I own neither - my feeling is the bigger problem was Lionel trying to be Lionel and thinking they can get su, err, modelers to pay $800 for a $300 loco), the BLI did a major rework on it before releasing it under their own name. The only people complaining about the BI K4 are the extreme rivet counter PRR fans, and a good bit of that has to do with the fact that BLI didn't work with the PRRT&HS to design the model. They ARE working with them for the new PCM I1 though.

--Randy

[ndbprr]

That last comment about BLI and the PRRT&HS isn't exactly correct. They asked for advice and ignored some of it. Some of it they did accept.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

IF the K4 was originally a lionel project, and IF the Challenger and Turbine are such poor quality (I sort of dispute that, but I own neither - my feeling is the bigger problem was Lionel trying to be Lionel and thinking they can get su, err, modelers to pay $800 for a $300 loco), the BLI did a major rework on it before releasing it under their own name. The only people complaining about the BI K4 are the extreme rivet counter PRR fans, and a good bit of that has to do with the fact that BLI didn't work with the PRRT&HS to design the model. They ARE working with them for the new PCM I1 though.

--Randy

Randy

You may be right about the Lionel being Lionel and trying to price the models too high to start with. I can say that I would still have purchased both the Challenger and Turbine knowing they had some problems, but I own both of them and the quality is about what we expected ten or twenty years ago, not today.
The sound on the Challenger is good and even better if you replace the speakers with good ones. The Turbine only uses two of the four trucks to power it and I will use it with a couple of GP9's like the real one used.

The quality of the Challenger really was poor running quality. In our group, five out of five needed work to get them to run without binding or other problems that should not happen. The front screws on the connecting rods actually hit the slides for the pistons and locked up. You had to reverse the engine to get it going again. This is not quality and the product was not ready for prime time.

Some of the second run I understand might have been better and the prices was cut in half, but the Genesis were out by that time and they run great. I have five of those and not one has a running quality problem.

I still wish Lionel could continue HO as all of the manufacturers are needed. Most of the early products from any of the startups have been below average, but time and experience should have made them better. Lionel started HO at least one time and maybe twice on the past and stopped after simular problems with quality. They did a GP30 about twenty or more years ago that looked great but ran like a slot car. I have some of those along with four of the GS4 Daylights that came out in 1976. They are nice looking but I could never use them. I think the molds went to Bachmann, but I am not sure about that.

The BLI K4 is nice and I like it fairly well. It is an upscale model for BLI, but my engine ran poorly until it got broken in. It did not require modifications to the running gear, just running on the rollers until it ran better. I can't image the MTH engine being any better than the group of K4's already out there so it had better be special if they want to sell it to us.

[selector]

I sure enjoy seeing all the passion and sharing in this type of thread. Way to go, fellas.

I have a Lionel Challenger, but I asked the agent ad Canadian model trains to have a good look at the running gear and to test the model thoroughly before they shipped it to me. There was a note saying that the rods did not bind, but that I should be careful when handling the loco to avoid bending anything. I am happy to say that it runs well. It sounds....okay,...I guess...but what can you expect out of even two 1.5" speakers in a metal cabinet?

Not that I have looked so closely, but it would seem that it is on a par with the BLI metal K4s.

-Crandell

[nfmisso]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bangert1
......Lionel started HO at least one time and maybe twice on the past and stopped after simular problems with quality. They did a GP30 about twenty or more years ago that looked great but ran like a slot car. I have some of those along with four of the GS4 Daylights that came out in 1976. They are nice looking but I could never use them. I think the molds went to Bachmann, but I am not sure about that.

For Lionel's 2nd (or was it third?) go at HO, they contracted with Kader Industries for the trains (GP30, GS4, etc). Kader owns Bachmann. When Lionel bailed, Kader re-issued the models as Bachmann. Both the GP30 and GS4 shells were far ahead of thier time in terms of accuracy and detailing.

[AntonioFP45]

Back in the late 70s a good friend of mine purchased a Lionel HO GS-4 Daylight steamer. The body was attractive, but performance was just a step above Tyco and noisy.

He later put on layaway, and purchased a gorgeous painted brass Westside GS-4! That was a smart move. Today it's DCC equipped and features an awesome working Mars Light!

As for MTH in HO:
As I've stated they have a tough battle if they seriously want to make a go at it in the HO market.

[Anonymous]

Just rec'd e-mail from MTH Customer Service. They "expect" to ship the HO K-4s to their dealers in April, 2006. They apologized for the long delay.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nfmisso

QUOTE: Originally posted by bangert1
......Lionel started HO at least one time and maybe twice on the past and stopped after simular problems with quality. They did a GP30 about twenty or more years ago that looked great but ran like a slot car. I have some of those along with four of the GS4 Daylights that came out in 1976. They are nice looking but I could never use them. I think the molds went to Bachmann, but I am not sure about that.

For Lionel's 2nd (or was it third?) go at HO, they contracted with Kader Industries for the trains (GP30, GS4, etc). Kader owns Bachmann. When Lionel bailed, Kader re-issued the models as Bachmann. Both the GP30 and GS4 shells were far ahead of thier time in terms of accuracy and detailing.

Thanks for the information about Kader and Bachmann. I was aware that the same GS4 molds were used to make the Lionel and then the Bachmann, but the connection was unclear.

You are correct about the quality of the shells being far ahead of their time. Too bad they did not work on the drive chassis.
Thanks

[Anonymous]

The MTH K-4 model is a knockout, just fabulous. I just can't wait until it gets here. I'm counting the days. It will set a new standard in HO for quality and performance.

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The MTH K-4 model is a knockout, just fabulous. I just can't wait until it gets here. I'm counting the days. It will set a new standard in HO for quality and performance.

Oh thank goodness he is back. I was getting really worried that something awful might have happened to either the K4 or our friendly neighborhood MTH fan. This thread has been running for 4 days without a word! Well we can relax, the equilibrium of the universe has been restored. [}:)]

[bcammack]

His keyboard probably shorted out from all of the saliva and he had to buy a replacement. [:)] I recommend one of those silicon, "roll-up" keyboards. They're waterproof.

[Anonymous]

In reference to MTH setting new standards for performance, Trix has set the standard for running quality performance in HO up to now, and it is a high standard. Sound is different story however, and installed sound would have to go to BLI in general. They started the current sound trend when they included sound installed RTR models and continue to bring out more models almost monthly for both BLI and PCM combined companies. The fact that PCM will be using Loksound and not QSI has something to do with their policies and marketing.

One would wonder how many K4's could be sold this year since both BLI and MTH might have sound model K4's to offer. The MTH model is almost a year behind schedule and has not shown up yet, but that might be due to its being so great, on paper. When you actually ship something, they seem to be less than advertised. With the revised schedule, makes you wonder if they had second and third thoughts about bringing in the model. It seems to me they were advertising it the same time as the first run of BLI PRR K4 models.

I purchased the BLI K4 last year, but you can never have too many K4's. The PRR had 425 each K4's at one time.

Speaking of reruns, why did BLI bring in the same numbers on the PRR J1 class engine?? The PRR had 125 each of those, and BLI imported a second run with the same exact numbers as the first run. You can only buy so many models with the same numbers without having duplicates and I decided not to renumber any of those at this time.

[Anonymous]

Whoopee for the April delivery.[:D]