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[quote]QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker IF the K4 was originally a lionel project, and IF the Challenger and Turbine are such poor quality (I sort of dispute that, but I own neither - my feeling is the bigger problem was Lionel trying to be Lionel and thinking they can get su, err, modelers to pay $800 for a $300 loco), the BLI did a major rework on it before releasing it under their own name. The only people complaining about the BI K4 are the extreme rivet counter PRR fans, and a good bit of that has to do with the fact that BLI didn't work with the PRRT&HS to design the model. They ARE working with them for the new PCM I1 though. --Randy [/quote] Randy You may be right about the Lionel being Lionel and trying to price the models too high to start with. I can say that I would still have purchased both the Challenger and Turbine knowing they had some problems, but I own both of them and the quality is about what we expected ten or twenty years ago, not today. The sound on the Challenger is good and even better if you replace the speakers with good ones. The Turbine only uses two of the four trucks to power it and I will use it with a couple of GP9's like the real one used. The quality of the Challenger really was poor running quality. In our group, five out of five needed work to get them to run without binding or other problems that should not happen. The front screws on the connecting rods actually hit the slides for the pistons and locked up. You had to reverse the engine to get it going again. This is not quality and the product was not ready for prime time. Some of the second run I understand might have been better and the prices was cut in half, but the Genesis were out by that time and they run great. I have five of those and not one has a running quality problem. I still wish Lionel could continue HO as all of the manufacturers are needed. Most of the early products from any of the startups have been below average, but time and experience should have made them better. Lionel started HO at least one time and maybe twice on the past and stopped after simular problems with quality. They did a GP30 about twenty or more years ago that looked great but ran like a slot car. I have some of those along with four of the GS4 Daylights that came out in 1976. They are nice looking but I could never use them. I think the molds went to Bachmann, but I am not sure about that. The BLI K4 is nice and I like it fairly well. It is an upscale model for BLI, but my engine ran poorly until it got broken in. It did not require modifications to the running gear, just running on the rollers until it ran better. I can't image the MTH engine being any better than the group of K4's already out there so it had better be special if they want to sell it to us.
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