MTH HO PRR K-4: Dead or Alive?

[dinwitty]

when I could buy a Bowser K4 kit cheaper, and build it, part of the fun is building it, I dunno if I would ever go to MTH,

but not a real pennsy fan anyways.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The MTH K-4 model is a knockout, just fabulous. I just can't wait until it gets here. I'm counting the days. It will set a new standard in HO for quality and performance.

That's Cool, MTHRules.
You may have some merit. I feel the same way about the diesel Tsuanmi. There's quite a few products many of us are waiting for.

Perhaps the MTH K4 will be a very smooth runner with nice sound. However, just as with any new product we can't say for sure that it will set any standards until it hits the market, especially since it's MTH's first HO venture.

The unit will have to be purchased and operated by customers. Realistic market feedback ( postive, negative, or both) will come after a year. Upon reviewing sales records, warranty issues, and customer feedback, MTH will be able to determine if their venture is worth investing into further [8D] $$$$ or if it should be dropped. [V][V] That's the nature of business.

The hurdles MTH is facing, however nice the K4 may be, is that

1. HO sound equipped locomotives have been on the market 4 years, so the high excitement that BLI first generated on the HO market has simmered down and sound is now part of the "norm" in the HO and N hobby.
2. Many sound equipped K4s are already on the market.
3. New BLI K4s are still available at discounted prices,
4. MTH's K4 model lists a high price tag.
5. Of course, forgive me for mentioning, there is still the hostility towards MTH products from modelers and some LHS owners. [V][V]

*Plus....while the unit is slated to be compatible with DCC throttles and systems there may or may not be potential "bugs" within the compatibility curve.

QC: We have to remember, that just like BLI units, the MTH K4 will also be made in China. So it's China, not MTH, that's handling the quality control.

[CNJ831]

My advice to PRR fans is be ready to take advantage of a "fire sale" on MTH K-4's around the end of 2006 or in early 2007. It's going to be a matter of too little, too late, in a marketplace that already has a plentiful supply of quality, sound equipped, K-4's available.

CNJ831

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The MTH K-4 model is a knockout, just fabulous.

------Really? Have you seen it up close? How well does it run? How's the detailing compare to a BLI K4? What is it that makes it fabulous?

Not dissing you MTHRules, but when you post these types of comments..................what are you using to back them up? [?]

[MisterBeasley]

Hmmm....there has been speculation over whether MTHFool is an employee of MTH, or simply an enthusiastic consumer. Well, since the consumers don't have this thing yet, I assume that he must have "inside connections." Either that or he's just blowing smoke.

And to you, Ted E. Bear, I too can say, "Whoopee for the April delivery." Yeah, like I care. Actually, once the product is on the street, then people can see if it's really up to the hype. That should end the speculation once and for all.

[MidlandPacific]

As a matter of interest, does anyone have any insight into the way in which the industry (a coarse term, I know, in that it lumps the large and the small together) does market research? Do they contact known buyers, troll websites, haunt trainshows, or simply make decisions based on experience and intuition?

[DigitalGriffin]

rripperger:
All of the above. Including focus groups and test market placement. They also analyze trends of similar product releases.

One things for sure, MTH must not be hurting too bad. He has his office/warehouse in Columbia's tech circle. And as someone who works in Columbia's tech circle, I can tell you it is NOT cheap land to rent or own.

I think he can call the K4 a lost cause. I imagine he's waiting for BLI to slow or stop their production so he can hop in to fill the void.

Timing wise, the only thing he could have done worse is build a big boy. 8-)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

My advice to PRR fans is be ready to take advantage of a "fire sale" on MTH K-4's around the end of 2006 or in early 2007. It's going to be a matter of too little, too late, in a marketplace that already has a plentiful supply of quality, sound equipped, K-4's available.

CNJ831

Yep. I'm ready, willing and able to buy one (if it's any good, of course) the day after Trainworld starts its 'inventory blowout'... I'd say about $199 or so is the street price I expect within 6 months of launch... and there won't be a second production run to worry about.

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DigitalGriffin

rripperger:
I
Timing wise, the only thing he could have done worse is build a big boy. 8-)

Or another F unit.

[jnichols]

Actually, I would have preferred a Big Boy to the K4, but in MTH's defense the K4 is a nice looking model. I saw it at the WGH show when it went through our area and even spoke to a sales rep about it for a bit. I didn't see it run, and the rep made a few comments concerning the DCC side of things not being 100% at this point (problems with DCC packet timing - are you listening Soundtraxx?).

I posted information about MTH's decision to do a K4 a few weeks back, but it degraded into the same hate mongering drivel that all MTH threads end up being so I didn't follow up. Suffice it to say MTH had their reasons for doing a K4 and claimed they got screwed by Korean Brass (may or may not be true, who knows at this point).

Jeff

[jondrd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The MTH K-4 model is a knockout, just fabulous. I just can't wait until it gets here. I'm counting the days. It will set a new standard in HO for quality and performance.

QC: We have to remember, that just like BLI units, the MTH K4 will also be made in China. So it's China, not MTH, that's handling the quality control.

While China may be handling quality control the real control of quality has got to be in the contract drawn between manufacturing(China) and design/engineering/marketing(US). I don't believe any businessman(person) would just accept anything that comes off the production line. The contract would specify what is acceptable and what is not. The contract specifications protect the US company's reputation and marketability of their
product. I don't know how the US company goes about assuring they're getting contract compliant product but I would assume there is some kind of onsite presence to protect US company's interests. A lot has been said on the forum that is unfavorable to MTH but I don't think MTH would put the market acceptance of a new product solely in China's hands(quality control). JMHO


Jon

[Anonymous]

Jeff, your comments are very fair and objective. [:)]

[TrainFreak409]

I've been waiting for MTH's K-4 since it was announced way back when. Of course, my hype over it has decreased some because I no longer work in the model railroading market, and will not be dealing with selling it, or any other train products at the moment.

However though, I can say that if the ProtoSound 3.0 system in the HO K-4 sounds as good as ProtoSound 2.0 in MTH's O gauge models do...I know I'll be impressed with it. PS 2.0 is an awesome sound system, so if it is improved with PS 3.0...[8D]

But, no matter what happens with MTH or the HO market in this ordeal, it will have little to no effect on me...Unless MTH decides to do N scale. I'll buy 'em then, especially if they bring out TURBINES![:p]

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jondrd

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The MTH K-4 model is a knockout, just fabulous. I just can't wait until it gets here. I'm counting the days. It will set a new standard in HO for quality and performance.

QC: We have to remember, that just like BLI units, the MTH K4 will also be made in China. So it's China, not MTH, that's handling the quality control.

While China may be handling quality control the real control of quality has got to be in the contract drawn between manufacturing(China) and design/engineering/marketing(US).

Jon

You guys need to remember that MTH built their own manufacturing plant in China which currently only builds models for them. After the Korean Brass scandle (and QC issues with Samhongsa before that), Mike decided to open his own plant. As far as I know it is headed up by a US management/QC team, not a Chinese one. Based on much of the newer O scale product I've seen from this new plant, things are definitely going in the right direction in terms of QC for MTH. If anything, MTH has a significant advantage over the likes of BLI, Life Like, Atlas and others in this regard.

Jeff

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jnichols
You guys need to remember that MTH built their own manufacturing plant in China which currently only builds models for them. After the Korean Brass scandle (and QC issues with Samhongsa before that), Mike decided to open his own plant. As far as I know it is headed up by a US management/QC team, not a Chinese one. Based on much of the newer O scale product I've seen from this new plant, things are definitely going in the right direction in terms of QC for MTH. If anything, MTH has a significant advantage over the likes of BLI, Life Like, Atlas and others in this regard.

Jeff

I'm glad someone here sees the big picture. Just take a look at the O scale line and you'll see nothing but top quality products.

[Anonymous]

Better a sister in a cat house than MTH on a layout.[:(]

[Darth Santa Fe]

I wonder how the MR review will be?

We won't know it's quality for sure until it's been reviewed![:)]

But If I want a K4, I'll probably get a Bachmann or Bowser, because they're in my price range.[:D]

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jnichols

Actually, I would have preferred a Big Boy to the K4, but in MTH's defense the K4 is a nice looking model. I saw it at the WGH show when it went through our area and even spoke to a sales rep about it for a bit. I didn't see it run, and the rep made a few comments concerning the DCC side of things not being 100% at this point (problems with DCC packet timing - are you listening Soundtraxx?).

I posted information about MTH's decision to do a K4 a few weeks back, but it degraded into the same hate mongering drivel that all MTH threads end up being so I didn't follow up. Suffice it to say MTH had their reasons for doing a K4 and claimed they got screwed by Korean Brass (may or may not be true, who knows at this point).

Jeff

Points well stated, JNichols.

It's good that you got to see the MTH K4 at the show you attended. Without this thead degrading into "drivel" and with respect to MTH's decision to do a K4, the contention still is that

1. "For the price" T MTH K4 lacks the detailing that its competitor, the BLI K4 has.

2. The price tag is in the "ouch arena" for many potential customers, though it will likely come down at discount hobby dealers.

3. Inspite of MTH's reasons.......the market is flooded with K4s.

10-4.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Darth Santa Fe

I wonder how the MR review will be?

We won't know it's quality for sure until it's been reviewed![:)]

But If I want a K4, I'll probably get a Bachmann or Bowser, because they're in my price range.[:D]

RU Kidding?

MR doesn't do bad reviews, too many ad $$$ at stake. The only thing you can go off is if a product launch this notable _isn't_ reviewed; I think that's a close as MR comes to saying "it keeerap".

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

I'm glad someone here sees the big picture. Just take a look at the O scale line and you'll see nothing but top quality products.

No kidding!.......MTH O scale rules! They even managed to get the seperate swinging pilots right on their O scale locos....unlike Atlas. Atlas is so cheap they attached it to the frame....it doesn't move at all around curves. [:0]

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

I'm glad someone here sees the big picture. Just take a look at the O scale line and you'll see nothing but top quality products.

Uhhhhh..... That doesn't necessarily say a whole lot.

Grumann produced some very impressive and powerful "TOP QUALITY" fighter aircraft. Yet, back in the 80s, when they got into the bus building business with Flxible, their buses (I used to fix them!) were little match for GMC's high selling RTS models. Apples need to be compared to apples.

O-scale drives are muscled monsters compared to HO drives, hands down. Yet.....when it comes to body detailing; MTH's best O scale locomotives pale in comparison to the wealth of detailing offered on HO P2K, Atlas, and Athearn Genesis units.

See? Also an example of "apples and oranges" comparison. Makes little sense. So it's a good idea to keep things in perspective.

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon


No kidding!.......MTH O scale rules! They even managed to get the seperate swinging pilots right on their O scale locos....unlike Atlas. Atlas is so cheap they attached it to the frame....it doesn't move at all around curves. [:0]

Not wanting to help this post degrade into a montage of loathing, but what three rail O scale Atlas diesels do you own with fixed pilots? The only one I've seen with fixed pilots is the SW switcher. Obviously the 2-rail locomotives have fixed pilots, but since MTH doesn't make a 2-rail only diesel right now that's sort of a bad comparison. The new Proto 3-2 diesels will in fact have a fixed pilot and scale coupler for installation when used in 2-rail applications however.

When I made the comment about the quality of the new MTH stuff I was really focusing on the Proto 3-2 Premier steam locomotives (I should have been more specific). I don't think anyone would argue about the quality of the Atlas products. They are top notch and I love all of mine.

Jeff

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jnichols

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon


No kidding!.......MTH O scale rules! They even managed to get the seperate swinging pilots right on their O scale locos....unlike Atlas. Atlas is so cheap they attached it to the frame....it doesn't move at all around curves. [:0]

Not wanting to help this post degrade into a montage of loathing, but what three rail O scale Atlas diesels do you own with fixed pilots? The only one I've seen with fixed pilots is the SW switcher. Obviously the 2-rail locomotives have fixed pilots, but since MTH doesn't make a 2-rail only diesel right now that's sort of a bad comparison. The new Proto 3-2 diesels will in fact have a fixed pilot and scale coupler for installation when used in 2-rail applications however.

When I made the comment about the quality of the new MTH stuff I was really focusing on the Proto 3-2 Premier steam locomotives (I should have been more specific). I don't think anyone would argue about the quality of the Atlas products. They are top notch and I love all of mine.

Jeff

That was the point. Like Antonio said...apples and oranges. Were I to pick a switcher in O, based on fidelity alone, I'd probably go with Atlas. However, like you mention, one can't really compare 2 rail O and 3 rail O. Quite similiar to basing expectations of quality in the HO offering on MTH O scale offerings. Nothing against O scalers (2 or 3 rail) by the way, to each his own, and to each rest a differing set of expectations in quality and fidelity.

Dan

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon


That was the point. Like Antonio said...apples and oranges. Were I to pick a switcher in O, based on fidelity alone, I'd probably go with Atlas. However, like you mention, one can't really compare 2 rail O and 3 rail O. Quite similiar to basing expectations of quality in the HO offering on MTH O scale offerings. Nothing against O scalers (2 or 3 rail) by the way, to each his own, and to each rest a differing set of expectations in quality and fidelity.

Dan

Agreed!

Jeff

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jnichols

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon


That was the point. Like Antonio said...apples and oranges. Were I to pick a switcher in O, based on fidelity alone, I'd probably go with Atlas. However, like you mention, one can't really compare 2 rail O and 3 rail O. Quite similiar to basing expectations of quality in the HO offering on MTH O scale offerings. Nothing against O scalers (2 or 3 rail) by the way, to each his own, and to each rest a differing set of expectations in quality and fidelity.

Dan

Agreed!

Jeff

[:)]

[AntonioFP45]

O.K, I'll try to be "cool here.............With all respect to MTHRules/Ted E. Bear.......

a very big part of the reason these threads erupt into "blowtorch events" is because he chooses to post threads in a way that "provokes" and antagonizes members instead of trying to "discuss" his points with them. So hence; fueling even more contempt and dislike for MTH. I've actually done my homework on him, (and his alias,Ted) and seen his posts on CTT.

Some of them are quite intelligent.....yet he deliberately chooses to "kick sand in our faces" here on this particular forum. I can only speak for myself, but many others here agree. So the majority of responses to his threads lean heavily on the negative side. Some of my posts to him were "cordial", though sometimes when he pushes it I go into "smart aleck" mode (like my post as to what Mike would actually say to him if they ever met!)

Who knows? Perhaps it's fun for him, but he just doesn't seem to get it that they just drive many "potential" customers futher away. In effect: almost assuring that sales levels won't be anywhere near BLI's. Just based on MTHRules "needle-jabbing posts" alone, if Mike's Train House developed an HO scale New Haven EP5,(something I've dreamed about) I wouldn't buy one!

I'm no moderator or special member , but I'm very sure that if MTH/Ted chose to "be cool and civil" with everyone else as we enjoy this forum......he'll likely find a more welcoming attitude.

Worked for Budliner! [8D][tup]

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

O.K, I'll try to be "cool here.............With all respect to MTHRules/Ted E. Bear.......

a very big part of the reason these threads erupt into "blowtorch events" is because he chooses to post threads in a way that "provokes" and antagonizes members instead of trying to "discuss" his points with them. So hence; fueling even more contempt and dislike for MTH. I've actually done my homework on him, (and his alias,Ted) and seen his posts on CTT.

Who knows? Perhaps it's fun for him, but he just doesn't seem to get it that they just drive many "potential" customers futher away. In effect: almost assuring that sales levels won't be anywhere near BLI's. Just based on MTHRules "needle-jabbing posts" alone, if Mike's Train House developed an HO scale New Haven EP5,(something I've dreamed about) I wouldn't buy one!

Have you ever considered that MTHrules' posts may not really be in support of MTH products at all but rather to purposely stir up anti-MTH feeling? It sure looks like it to me and I'd say he repeatedly does a very good job of it! [;)]

CNJ831

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

Have you ever considered that MTHrules' posts may not really be in support of MTH products at all but rather to purposely stir up anti-MTH feeling? It sure looks like it to me and I'd say he repeatedly does a very good job of it! [;)]

CNJ831

Hello CNJ831.

Yes. Good point you've brought up.

That has been discussed on this forum a few times, however, check all of his past postings over at our neighbors on CTT. He causes no flaming over there and his posts seem to "genuinely" be very, very supportive of MTH. Had he stirred up the pot on CTT as well, I would agree 100% that he was actually trying to "bash" MTH using "reverse psychology".

IMHO, again, MTHRules just seems to get his jollies from kicking sand in our faces and perhaps gets a laugh out of all of the heated responses. In elementary school I knew a kid like that---often did things just to get a response.

As I've stated, I hope MTHRules / Ted E. Bear actually elects to bury the hatchet and ride with us on this forum train instead of hanging underneath it and tossing ballast up through the floor every now and then.[B)] I certainly wouldn't hang around a forum where 90% of the members wish I were not a member.[V]

Had he been smart, MTHRules would have used JNichols intelligent style of posting which actually entices modelers to think, even if they have opposing viewpoints.[;)]

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: MR doesn't do bad reviews, too many ad $$$ at stake. The only thing you can go off is if a product launch this notable _isn't_ reviewed; I think that's a close as MR comes to saying "it keeerap".

I disagree. I thought their review of the Reading T-1 was pretty good about noting flaws, particularly with the sound system - haven't looked at it for a couple of days, but IIRC they dinged it and said it didn't give four exhausts per revolution, and commented that was not really what the serious modeler would expect. That's pretty critical reporting.

[CNJ831]

Rob - It's been personally expressed to me by a former MR staffer, and I believe even posted on this forum at one time by the powers that be, that while MR reviews may offer a certain amount of criticism regarding a given model, they will simply pass on bad ones. So if you don't see a major item reviewed in due course, you can pretty much assume it isn't worth buying. Kchronister's statement is correct.

CNJ831