MTH HO PRR K-4: Dead or Alive?

[Anonymous]

www.mthhotrains.com [tup][tup]

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davidvanwinkle

Update: Just heard today from Kirstin Martinez at MTH Customer Service that their ................it is better to have a product arrive late than have the product not up to the standards our customers have come to expect ........."

Yep. Soundtraxx's delay of the Tsunami "steam" decoder so they could "get it right" has indeed paid off. I've been hearing excellent reviews from some of the guys at the club I belong to.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davidvanwinkle


She further stated that "Unfortunately with a new product line which involves not just new models but a new sound system as well, it is hard to accurately predict exactly when all aspects will be ready to go. It is the belief of MTH that it is better to have a product arrive late than have the product not up to the standards our customers have come to expect - of course we also know that on time and up to par is the best combination of all."

Can't argue with that.[;)]

[TrainFreak409]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davidvanwinkle

She further stated that "Unfortunately with a new product line which involves not just new models but a new sound system as well, it is hard to accurately predict exactly when all aspects will be ready to go. It is the belief of MTH that it is better to have a product arrive late than have the product not up to the standards our customers have come to expect - of course we also know that on time and up to par is the best combination of all."

Well, that's understandable. I would rather see a product ship late and be good than be shipped on time and be problematic. Although, however, she is right on target when she says that the best combination is "on time and up to par." Of course though, that is rather difficult to achieve with a new system, because no one knows what can occur in the development stages.

The same thing is going on in the computer world, with Microsoft delaying Windows Vista until late this year and early next year. It's a brand new system, so they are taking the extra time to work out certain issues that they will not have to resolve later.

[Anonymous]

Update: Just heard today from Kirstin Martinez at MTH Customer Service that their HO PRR K-4 "will most likely not be in stores until late May to early June".
I hope she means in 2006.

She further stated that "Unfortunately with a new product line which involves not just new models but a new sound system as well, it is hard to accurately predict exactly when all aspects will be ready to go. It is the belief of MTH that it is better to have a product arrive late than have the product not up to the standards our customers have come to expect - of course we also know that on time and up to par is the best combination of all."

[AntonioFP45]

Agreed Selector.

If MTH does raise the bar as far as "sound" then it prompts the other manufacturers to aim high as well. Indeed, a good thing.

HO Body detailing: That's an area where MTH has to compete with the current crop of HO competitors that raised the bar years back due to modelers demanding much greater accuracy on model locomotives.

[selector]

I will jump in at this late stage. Very briefly, regardless of how any of us feels about MTH and its products, we will all surely benefit in some tangible way if it turns out that they begin to produce a bunch of "Oh my gawd!" HO (even N) models. If they raise the bar, others will have to follow suit.

Darn, eh? [:-,]

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kchronister

I say that because even if it's a very good model, it's not living up to all the hype. MTH doesn't have the option to put out a "good" model here, it's got to be great-plus... Let's say, for instance, it's comparable to the BLI. Maybe one has more detail, the other runs a hair smoother, whatever... For example, let's say it comes out and the basic difference is better chuff synchronization plus it has smoke... Oh. Yay. Wow.

To me, that kind of "parity" actually makes the MTH a loser. To come out _years_ later with all the hooplah at a not-inexpensive pricepoint, it had better be a major advancement over the BLI, not more of the same with minor pros and cons...

- Roger that.

QUOTE: I don't envy Mike's crew on this one. With all the touting they've done and the lengthy development time, it better be dang-near perfect.

- What makes this so interesting is that many of us are looking forward to other items hitting the HO market soon as well: Digitrax Sound decoder, the Tsunami diesel decoder, Walthers new kits, BLI's new F unit (yeah, like we need another F7!) etc.,. Many of us are still pleasantly looking forward to those releases. [:D][8D]

Yet, sadly, on the flip side because of:

1. The MTH vs.QSI suit.
2. Hype from MTH regarding HO DCS.
3. The flame filled MTH related posts on the forums.......[B)]

.....lots of HO modelers seem to be looking forward to the release of the MTH K4 as well.........only so they can immedietly find and exploit its shortcomings. I certainly don't envy Mike Wolf either. [V]

Inspite of all of the anti-MTH comments, generally most HO scalers that model diesels or railroads other than the Pennsy might not care one way or the other, especially since the QSI suit seems to have "faded away" though we don't know for sure. If the MTH K4 turns out to be a dud....then like Lionel did years back, Mr. Wolf would likely pull out of the HO arena. If it's a slight or moderate success, then he may pursue developing another model. In either case since DCC has become the dominant form of command control for HO and is much cheaper now..........he's got a tough challenge.

Strange how things turn out.
Had the QSI suit never taken place, many of us would likely have welcomed MTH into HO, even with higher prices, a proprietary system, and the battles with Lionel. Wolf might have even been encouraged to work closely with the DCC manufacturers to work out some of the compatibility issues that still exist between DCC and DCS.

Peace.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rripperger

QUOTE: MR doesn't do bad reviews, too many ad $$$ at stake. The only thing you can go off is if a product launch this notable _isn't_ reviewed; I think that's a close as MR comes to saying "it keeerap".

I disagree. I thought their review of the Reading T-1 was pretty good about noting flaws, particularly with the sound system - haven't looked at it for a couple of days, but IIRC they dinged it and said it didn't give four exhausts per revolution, and commented that was not really what the serious modeler would expect. That's pretty critical reporting.

Leaving the matter of overall reviews aside, I will be very disappointed if they DON'T review this if/when it comes out. Furthermore, I think with all the hype, promotion and promises, if any MR review was ever "polar" this is one that should be. Frankly, it should either be "Holy Crap! It's everything promised and then some" or it should be "what was all the hype about?".

I say that because even if it's a very good model, it's not living up to all the hype. MTH doesn't have the option to put out a "good" model here, it's got to be great-plus... Let's say, for instance, it's comparable to the BLI. Maybe one has more detail, the other runs a hair smoother, whatever... For example, let's say it comes out and the basic difference is better chuff synchronization plus it has smoke... Oh. Yay. Wow.

To me, that kind of "parity" actually makes the MTH a loser. To come out _years_ later with all the hooplah at a not-inexpensive pricepoint, it had better be a major advancement over the BLI, not more of the same with minor pros and cons...

I don't envy Mike's crew on this one. With all the touting they've done and the lengthy development time, it better be dang-near perfect.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kbfcsme

QUOTE: Originally posted by kchronister

QUOTE: Originally posted by Darth Santa Fe

I wonder how the MR review will be?

We won't know it's quality for sure until it's been reviewed![:)]

But If I want a K4, I'll probably get a Bachmann or Bowser, because they're in my price range.[:D]

RU Kidding?

MR doesn't do bad reviews, too many ad $$$ at stake. The only thing you can go off is if a product launch this notable _isn't_ reviewed; I think that's a close as MR comes to saying "it keeerap".

Don'tcha remember the scathing review of the 1st run of Walthers Superliner cars with the bowed bodies??? I think if its a turd, they'll say its a turd, but just be very PC about it.MR gets its little digs in, you just have to read between the lines a bit. I caught the digs in the recent review of the T-1, did you?

Frankly I think they will. MR should not be beholden to the advertisers when they do reviews, after all, a good review on a bad product affects the subscribers, and where would they be without them?? MTH doesn't seem to advertise much in MR, now CTT might be a different story.

I heard it from a similarly-placed (perhaps the same?) source as Crandell, thus I believe it.

Perhaps there are rare exceptions done pro forma... or it's possible that the policies are shifting under the current MR administration... But to me it's pretty self-evident that MR reviews are overwhelmingly fawning.

Maybe it's not "never," but it's with extreme rarity that an MR review offers anything but the most faint of criticism.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kchronister

QUOTE: Originally posted by Darth Santa Fe

I wonder how the MR review will be?

We won't know it's quality for sure until it's been reviewed![:)]

But If I want a K4, I'll probably get a Bachmann or Bowser, because they're in my price range.[:D]

RU Kidding?

MR doesn't do bad reviews, too many ad $$$ at stake. The only thing you can go off is if a product launch this notable _isn't_ reviewed; I think that's a close as MR comes to saying "it keeerap".

Don'tcha remember the scathing review of the 1st run of Walthers Superliner cars with the bowed bodies??? I think if its a turd, they'll say its a turd, but just be very PC about it.MR gets its little digs in, you just have to read between the lines a bit. I caught the digs in the recent review of the T-1, did you?

Frankly I think they will. MR should not be beholden to the advertisers when they do reviews, after all, a good review on a bad product affects the subscribers, and where would they be without them?? MTH doesn't seem to advertise much in MR, now CTT might be a different story.

Personally, the title of this thread tickled me. Dead or alive? Doesn't this presuppose that the model is wanted in the first place??

[CNJ831]

Rob - It's been personally expressed to me by a former MR staffer, and I believe even posted on this forum at one time by the powers that be, that while MR reviews may offer a certain amount of criticism regarding a given model, they will simply pass on bad ones. So if you don't see a major item reviewed in due course, you can pretty much assume it isn't worth buying. Kchronister's statement is correct.

CNJ831

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: MR doesn't do bad reviews, too many ad $$$ at stake. The only thing you can go off is if a product launch this notable _isn't_ reviewed; I think that's a close as MR comes to saying "it keeerap".

I disagree. I thought their review of the Reading T-1 was pretty good about noting flaws, particularly with the sound system - haven't looked at it for a couple of days, but IIRC they dinged it and said it didn't give four exhausts per revolution, and commented that was not really what the serious modeler would expect. That's pretty critical reporting.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

Have you ever considered that MTHrules' posts may not really be in support of MTH products at all but rather to purposely stir up anti-MTH feeling? It sure looks like it to me and I'd say he repeatedly does a very good job of it! [;)]

CNJ831

Hello CNJ831.

Yes. Good point you've brought up.

That has been discussed on this forum a few times, however, check all of his past postings over at our neighbors on CTT. He causes no flaming over there and his posts seem to "genuinely" be very, very supportive of MTH. Had he stirred up the pot on CTT as well, I would agree 100% that he was actually trying to "bash" MTH using "reverse psychology".

IMHO, again, MTHRules just seems to get his jollies from kicking sand in our faces and perhaps gets a laugh out of all of the heated responses. In elementary school I knew a kid like that---often did things just to get a response.

As I've stated, I hope MTHRules / Ted E. Bear actually elects to bury the hatchet and ride with us on this forum train instead of hanging underneath it and tossing ballast up through the floor every now and then.[B)] I certainly wouldn't hang around a forum where 90% of the members wish I were not a member.[V]

Had he been smart, MTHRules would have used JNichols intelligent style of posting which actually entices modelers to think, even if they have opposing viewpoints.[;)]

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

O.K, I'll try to be "cool here.............With all respect to MTHRules/Ted E. Bear.......

a very big part of the reason these threads erupt into "blowtorch events" is because he chooses to post threads in a way that "provokes" and antagonizes members instead of trying to "discuss" his points with them. So hence; fueling even more contempt and dislike for MTH. I've actually done my homework on him, (and his alias,Ted) and seen his posts on CTT.

Who knows? Perhaps it's fun for him, but he just doesn't seem to get it that they just drive many "potential" customers futher away. In effect: almost assuring that sales levels won't be anywhere near BLI's. Just based on MTHRules "needle-jabbing posts" alone, if Mike's Train House developed an HO scale New Haven EP5,(something I've dreamed about) I wouldn't buy one!

Have you ever considered that MTHrules' posts may not really be in support of MTH products at all but rather to purposely stir up anti-MTH feeling? It sure looks like it to me and I'd say he repeatedly does a very good job of it! [;)]

CNJ831

[AntonioFP45]

O.K, I'll try to be "cool here.............With all respect to MTHRules/Ted E. Bear.......

a very big part of the reason these threads erupt into "blowtorch events" is because he chooses to post threads in a way that "provokes" and antagonizes members instead of trying to "discuss" his points with them. So hence; fueling even more contempt and dislike for MTH. I've actually done my homework on him, (and his alias,Ted) and seen his posts on CTT.

Some of them are quite intelligent.....yet he deliberately chooses to "kick sand in our faces" here on this particular forum. I can only speak for myself, but many others here agree. So the majority of responses to his threads lean heavily on the negative side. Some of my posts to him were "cordial", though sometimes when he pushes it I go into "smart aleck" mode (like my post as to what Mike would actually say to him if they ever met!)

Who knows? Perhaps it's fun for him, but he just doesn't seem to get it that they just drive many "potential" customers futher away. In effect: almost assuring that sales levels won't be anywhere near BLI's. Just based on MTHRules "needle-jabbing posts" alone, if Mike's Train House developed an HO scale New Haven EP5,(something I've dreamed about) I wouldn't buy one!

I'm no moderator or special member , but I'm very sure that if MTH/Ted chose to "be cool and civil" with everyone else as we enjoy this forum......he'll likely find a more welcoming attitude.

Worked for Budliner! [8D][tup]

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jnichols

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon


That was the point. Like Antonio said...apples and oranges. Were I to pick a switcher in O, based on fidelity alone, I'd probably go with Atlas. However, like you mention, one can't really compare 2 rail O and 3 rail O. Quite similiar to basing expectations of quality in the HO offering on MTH O scale offerings. Nothing against O scalers (2 or 3 rail) by the way, to each his own, and to each rest a differing set of expectations in quality and fidelity.

Dan

Agreed!

Jeff

[:)]

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon


That was the point. Like Antonio said...apples and oranges. Were I to pick a switcher in O, based on fidelity alone, I'd probably go with Atlas. However, like you mention, one can't really compare 2 rail O and 3 rail O. Quite similiar to basing expectations of quality in the HO offering on MTH O scale offerings. Nothing against O scalers (2 or 3 rail) by the way, to each his own, and to each rest a differing set of expectations in quality and fidelity.

Dan

Agreed!

Jeff

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jnichols

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon


No kidding!.......MTH O scale rules! They even managed to get the seperate swinging pilots right on their O scale locos....unlike Atlas. Atlas is so cheap they attached it to the frame....it doesn't move at all around curves. [:0]

Not wanting to help this post degrade into a montage of loathing, but what three rail O scale Atlas diesels do you own with fixed pilots? The only one I've seen with fixed pilots is the SW switcher. Obviously the 2-rail locomotives have fixed pilots, but since MTH doesn't make a 2-rail only diesel right now that's sort of a bad comparison. The new Proto 3-2 diesels will in fact have a fixed pilot and scale coupler for installation when used in 2-rail applications however.

When I made the comment about the quality of the new MTH stuff I was really focusing on the Proto 3-2 Premier steam locomotives (I should have been more specific). I don't think anyone would argue about the quality of the Atlas products. They are top notch and I love all of mine.

Jeff

That was the point. Like Antonio said...apples and oranges. Were I to pick a switcher in O, based on fidelity alone, I'd probably go with Atlas. However, like you mention, one can't really compare 2 rail O and 3 rail O. Quite similiar to basing expectations of quality in the HO offering on MTH O scale offerings. Nothing against O scalers (2 or 3 rail) by the way, to each his own, and to each rest a differing set of expectations in quality and fidelity.

Dan

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon


No kidding!.......MTH O scale rules! They even managed to get the seperate swinging pilots right on their O scale locos....unlike Atlas. Atlas is so cheap they attached it to the frame....it doesn't move at all around curves. [:0]

Not wanting to help this post degrade into a montage of loathing, but what three rail O scale Atlas diesels do you own with fixed pilots? The only one I've seen with fixed pilots is the SW switcher. Obviously the 2-rail locomotives have fixed pilots, but since MTH doesn't make a 2-rail only diesel right now that's sort of a bad comparison. The new Proto 3-2 diesels will in fact have a fixed pilot and scale coupler for installation when used in 2-rail applications however.

When I made the comment about the quality of the new MTH stuff I was really focusing on the Proto 3-2 Premier steam locomotives (I should have been more specific). I don't think anyone would argue about the quality of the Atlas products. They are top notch and I love all of mine.

Jeff

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

I'm glad someone here sees the big picture. Just take a look at the O scale line and you'll see nothing but top quality products.

Uhhhhh..... That doesn't necessarily say a whole lot.

Grumann produced some very impressive and powerful "TOP QUALITY" fighter aircraft. Yet, back in the 80s, when they got into the bus building business with Flxible, their buses (I used to fix them!) were little match for GMC's high selling RTS models. Apples need to be compared to apples.

O-scale drives are muscled monsters compared to HO drives, hands down. Yet.....when it comes to body detailing; MTH's best O scale locomotives pale in comparison to the wealth of detailing offered on HO P2K, Atlas, and Athearn Genesis units.

See? Also an example of "apples and oranges" comparison. Makes little sense. So it's a good idea to keep things in perspective.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

I'm glad someone here sees the big picture. Just take a look at the O scale line and you'll see nothing but top quality products.

No kidding!.......MTH O scale rules! They even managed to get the seperate swinging pilots right on their O scale locos....unlike Atlas. Atlas is so cheap they attached it to the frame....it doesn't move at all around curves. [:0]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Darth Santa Fe

I wonder how the MR review will be?

We won't know it's quality for sure until it's been reviewed![:)]

But If I want a K4, I'll probably get a Bachmann or Bowser, because they're in my price range.[:D]

RU Kidding?

MR doesn't do bad reviews, too many ad $$$ at stake. The only thing you can go off is if a product launch this notable _isn't_ reviewed; I think that's a close as MR comes to saying "it keeerap".

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jnichols

Actually, I would have preferred a Big Boy to the K4, but in MTH's defense the K4 is a nice looking model. I saw it at the WGH show when it went through our area and even spoke to a sales rep about it for a bit. I didn't see it run, and the rep made a few comments concerning the DCC side of things not being 100% at this point (problems with DCC packet timing - are you listening Soundtraxx?).

I posted information about MTH's decision to do a K4 a few weeks back, but it degraded into the same hate mongering drivel that all MTH threads end up being so I didn't follow up. Suffice it to say MTH had their reasons for doing a K4 and claimed they got screwed by Korean Brass (may or may not be true, who knows at this point).

Jeff

Points well stated, JNichols.

It's good that you got to see the MTH K4 at the show you attended. Without this thead degrading into "drivel" and with respect to MTH's decision to do a K4, the contention still is that

1. "For the price" T MTH K4 lacks the detailing that its competitor, the BLI K4 has.

2. The price tag is in the "ouch arena" for many potential customers, though it will likely come down at discount hobby dealers.

3. Inspite of MTH's reasons.......the market is flooded with K4s.

10-4.

[Darth Santa Fe]

I wonder how the MR review will be?

We won't know it's quality for sure until it's been reviewed![:)]

But If I want a K4, I'll probably get a Bachmann or Bowser, because they're in my price range.[:D]

[Anonymous]

Better a sister in a cat house than MTH on a layout.[:(]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jnichols
You guys need to remember that MTH built their own manufacturing plant in China which currently only builds models for them. After the Korean Brass scandle (and QC issues with Samhongsa before that), Mike decided to open his own plant. As far as I know it is headed up by a US management/QC team, not a Chinese one. Based on much of the newer O scale product I've seen from this new plant, things are definitely going in the right direction in terms of QC for MTH. If anything, MTH has a significant advantage over the likes of BLI, Life Like, Atlas and others in this regard.

Jeff

I'm glad someone here sees the big picture. Just take a look at the O scale line and you'll see nothing but top quality products.

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jondrd

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The MTH K-4 model is a knockout, just fabulous. I just can't wait until it gets here. I'm counting the days. It will set a new standard in HO for quality and performance.

QC: We have to remember, that just like BLI units, the MTH K4 will also be made in China. So it's China, not MTH, that's handling the quality control.

While China may be handling quality control the real control of quality has got to be in the contract drawn between manufacturing(China) and design/engineering/marketing(US).

Jon

You guys need to remember that MTH built their own manufacturing plant in China which currently only builds models for them. After the Korean Brass scandle (and QC issues with Samhongsa before that), Mike decided to open his own plant. As far as I know it is headed up by a US management/QC team, not a Chinese one. Based on much of the newer O scale product I've seen from this new plant, things are definitely going in the right direction in terms of QC for MTH. If anything, MTH has a significant advantage over the likes of BLI, Life Like, Atlas and others in this regard.

Jeff

[TrainFreak409]

I've been waiting for MTH's K-4 since it was announced way back when. Of course, my hype over it has decreased some because I no longer work in the model railroading market, and will not be dealing with selling it, or any other train products at the moment.

However though, I can say that if the ProtoSound 3.0 system in the HO K-4 sounds as good as ProtoSound 2.0 in MTH's O gauge models do...I know I'll be impressed with it. PS 2.0 is an awesome sound system, so if it is improved with PS 3.0...[8D]

But, no matter what happens with MTH or the HO market in this ordeal, it will have little to no effect on me...Unless MTH decides to do N scale. I'll buy 'em then, especially if they bring out TURBINES![:p]