Anybody else getting annoyed........

[ngartshore350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)
Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out[:D]

But isn't it that by definition anything divided by itself is 1? Engineer in me is also coming out.

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out[:D]

But isn't it that by definition anything divided by itself is 1? Engineer in me is also coming out.

[davekelly]

Am I annoyed by folks putting RTR down? Yup. Even though I prefer to build kits and would love to scratchbuild everything I need - if I had the time and the talent, there is a place for RTR. Just like there is a place for kits, scratchbuilt, kitbash etc etc. There's a place for fine running highly detailed brass engines and a place for Tyco (yeah I know - someone will say the trash heap). There's a place for DCC and DC.

What annoys me are the folks that think everything other than what they personally use/do is somehow less than model railroading. Why is it that it is not "model" railroading unless the locomotive is a kit? Why can that person be a model railroader when he/she uses RTR track under the locomotive built from a kit? Isn't the track the essence of what defines a railroad? Where can we find the reference which says how much RTR you are allowed to have before you are not a model railroader? In that regard - what is a locomotive kit? Bowser? Athearn? Proto? Is sticking on grab irons enough to qualify a model as a kit or does one have to go so far as to actually wind the wire on the armature of the motor? Where is the dividing line? I think what will be found is that those that say that you have to build kits in order to be a model railroader will say that the "kits" they assemble are kits and anything with a lesser number of parts is not.

Who is more a "model railroader" - the guy that builds only Bowser type locomotive kits and uses RTR track, shake the box rolling stock and structures, or the guy who uses RTR locomotives and rolling stock but handlays every inch of track, scratchbuilds every building and concentrates on realistic operations?

Along the same lines - it seems that another popular pasttime is to call anything less expensive than what one runs "junk" and anything more expensive than what one runs as "things for those that have more money than brains."

As far as I am concerned, and this is just my opinion of course, if a person is running something that looks like a train and is smaller than 1:1 scale, and is having fun doing it - that person is a model railroader.

[ngartshore350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out[:D]

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

[SpaceMouse]

They don't make either RTR or kits for either the California Western or the Northwestern Pacific in the 1917 era. So if I want something I have to customize it. Kits are easier to customize. I have nothing against RTR, but I have no use for them either.

[DALCruiser]

I have built my fair share of BB kits. I enjoy the hands-on work, but time is an issue some times and RTR is a real blessing. I also get a little pived when I run into the rich guys visiting the LHS and saying " Your not a REAL model railroader unless you buy BRASS kits or ready to finish BRASS models". I for one don't have that kind of discretionary mony to spend just on motive power.

I enjoy the Steam Era and I buy mostly Spectrum DCC ready RTR when I can and an occasional Atlas. As I get older, the old eye sight becomes an issue when assembling fine detail that some models require, thus RTR is a great way to get the detailed models I wish I could build.

Dave

[TrainFreak409]

Another [2c] from me.

I think that Ready to Run does more to attract new members into this hobby than kits do. Especially in the current generation. We aren't called the Lazy Generation for nothing. (Eww...I hate including myself in that...)

Now, I may be making an assumption here, but, what would today's child want more...
a) A completely Ready to Run set that, once set up, can provide instant gratification?

Or

b) A bunch of kits, seperate track, power pack, et cetera, that must first be assembled before running?

I think that with today's children, they would want a Ready to Run set because they are so used to just opening a box and enjoying, and not aware of the feeling of accomplishment that a kit can provide.

So, a possible scenario being: Little Johnny is with his mom in Boscov's. He sees a small LifeLike starter set. Nothing fancy, and not expensive either. His mom purchases it for him. He goes home, sets up everything with some parental help, and runs his little locomotive around and around, constantly rearranging the signs, toy cars, and mountain that came with the set. Time passes, and soon, that oval is on a piece of plywood. His father comes home one day with a new boxcar for him. But the next week, his father brings him a new box; A Blue Box kit. Johnny and his father assemble the kit rather quickly, and find great pride in seeing the boxcar they built go around the loop.
A few months later, Johnny has built so many Blue Box kits, that he no longer needs his father's help, and has even purchased some of his own. His collection is growing steadily, and he is becoming quite confident in his abilities. His built-up structures are being replaced with kits he is starting to build. But then...His little LikeLike locomotive sputters out after months and months of running. So, he goes to the LHS, and finds a nice Blue Box F7, and he easily assembles it.
"Hey, that's a nice locomotive," Johnny said to himself, "And if wasn't all that challenging to build, either. Maybe I'll try a more complicated one next time..."

And it continues as such, were little Johnny progresses from RTR, to Blue Box, to full blown kits.

Now, playing devil's advocate here, kits could bring in more experienced hobbyists from maybe auto modeling, or model airplane builder/flyers. It could go either way, but I think RTR is what brings in most younger model railroaders. It brought me in to this hobby, in a very similar way as "Little Johnny."

[icmr]

I like RTR a lot.



Victor

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[ezielinski]

I started with the Athearn BB kits for engines, but now appreciate the realism and details of the RTR engines from Atlas, Bachmann (Spectrum), Kato and Life-Like (Proto 2000).

I've always preferred to build my my own rolling stock than to buy RTR. The RTR rolling stock if often over/underweighted and the couplers aren't set at the right height, so I have to take it apart and rebuild it anyway.

Just let what they say flow in one ear and out the other. Choose how YOU enjoy your hobby.

[twhite]

Jonathan--you were looking at a specific diesel and these toads told you to get a KIT of it? Did they offer in their infinite wisdom just exactly WHERE you were going to find a kit of this particular locomotive? Seems to me that THEY need the Reality Check, certainly no you.
Ignore them, they'll mutter a while and then go back to their Ivory Tower. They're probably the kind of 'experts' that hang around hobby shops and put everyone else down, but if the truth were known, their own Model Railroads are where they've been for years and will in all probability remain--in their imaginations.
Tom [banghead][banghead]

[Todd McWilliam]

I once was a big BB locomotive kit builder. It took me a year to get them done, and they still did not look as good as a rtr. I only buy rtr stufff and finish detailing them out. My job and family keep me from building kits.

[ICRR1964]

RTR are fine if people desire them, BRAKIE is so right on that there have been RTR around for years, but now we have all the details added instead of doing them ourselves. Its up to the person and what they desire and want. I don't bad mouth modelers who want these RTR units. Some people have more time than others, with the way the world is now with jobs and kids and other things that come up. I have never bought a new RTR run unit yet, but I thought about it after BRAKIE pointed out all the stuff that was made years ago and is still being made today, we all have bought a RTR unit one time or another.

Now if you want to build a Keystone Shay with a NWSL powering kit, thats allot of work and time. Just about done with mine, hate to think how many hours I got in it so far. To each his own I say!

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

[BRAKIE]

Locomotive kits? Bowser and BearLocomotive has all the metal kits you want.

http://www.bowser-trains.com/holocos/holocos.htm

http://www.bearlocomotive.com/product/K001

http://www.bearlocomotive.com/product/K002

I built my fair share over the years so,ENJOY!!

[Anonymous]

I got no problem with RTR, theres so many RTR models on the market today that are just as detailed as any kit.

[jrbernier]

You should ask the 'kit builder' just where he is going to buy a good HO diesel model(RTR or kit) if not from Kato, Athearn, P2K, Stewart or Spectrum. If I want a SD60 or a GP9 ph1, who do I get a 'kit' from? The kind of folks who make these statements have done no real modeling in years(or at least purchased model engines in the past 10 years).
Myself, a good undec 'kit' of any of the above engines would be nice, but I doubt if the price will be any better. Back in the 70's, I kitbashed Athearn GP7's into Milw GP9's, detailing/painting/decaling them. Those old engines do not compare with fleet of P2K engines I now have, and the P2K engines have correct paint jobs/numbers!
I attend a lot of flea markets/train shows and still see a lot of old stuff that the owners are trying to sell off(usually at prices too high for the market). The marketplace has changed, and we have to adjust to it.

Jim

[Anonymous]

I would buy a RTR any day of the week before I would buy a kit. Why spend the money on the kit and mess it up and make it look like crap. I'm also sure the resale value of a RTR is alot higher than one of a kit build. Just my thoughts.

[bwftex]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

'LOCOMOTIVE (and other) KIT'S have alway's been 'minority' items for the hobby. LaBelle, Ambroid, and Intermountain's 'Craftsman' kit's primary appeal is to those with ''Look what I Built" motivation ... or possibly a hidden Masochistic streak - so what is wrong with that? ATHEARN's longtime popularity has been based on 'Shake the box' kit's that were cheap. (I wonder if there are still Athearn engine's running without their railing's that required soldeing?).

Dealer's have to stock what SELLS - if they want to stay in business.

If WE want to pay someone to assemble our product's for us (Chinese labor) that's our option. For those choosing to do their own, there is BOWSER, INTERMOUNTAIN, and other small specialty companies - but only if you hurry. Does anybody remember when car kit's were a block of wood or stripwood?

Don,
Most of the craftsman type kits from the companies you mentioned are not particularly difficult or painful to build. Unless following directions is difficult or painful. And the Intermountain’s are plastic stick on the parts type kits, you don’t have to make or form anything. One of the reasons folks build theses kits is because they fit the era and or prototype they are modeling because little else is available. Older steam era cars are poorly represented by RTR. One of the reasons these kits especially those in wood aren’t stocked much is because after you’ve built several you know how a car goes together and in what sequence so you don’t need any kits just some plans and some material. Some folks have fun building stuff, some don't. But how is a guy who builds craftsman kits a masochistic opposed to a guy doesn’t. Some folks get a lot of pleasure having a "look what I built " mentality, probably just as much as those who have a "look what I bought mentality". Bruce

[Anonymous]

I buy blue boxes. I buy RTR loco's. Will I buy RTR rolling stock. If the price is right you bet I will. As had already been stated. This is a fun hobby not a " I can out do you" hobby. Another thing to consider is age. Sooner or later the eyes and hands fail. Its your railroad, your money and what you spend it on is your business and yours alone. Phil

[dwRavenstar]

Some will criticize for the sake of criticism.

If you're not into railroad modelling you should be, if you're a modeller and run RTR you should scratch build everything, if you try your hand at scratching your talents are never going to be good enough. The guys who were messing with BigBoy would never run out of room for their own attacks.

It's a Hobby, a Past time, something to do that delivers personal enjoyment. Just as water finds its own level so do modellers. Do what satisfies YOU and revel in the satisfaction and enjoyment of your efforts and participation. Tell the nay-sayers to catch the next freight to a warmer climate.

dwRavenstar

[BRAKIE]

RTR engines isn't anything new..They have been around as long as I care to remember.You ever of PFM/United? Tenshodo? Balboa? Trains Inc ? Alco Models? Hallmark and other brass locomotive companies? Varney,Athearn and Mantua all had RTR engines..Companys like AHM,Lionel and Cox had RTR Engines and cars..
Nope nothing new under the sun here except todays RTR models are highly detailed.
As for me I love RTR engines and cars..I no longer want to look at a kit.After all I started building engine and car kits at the age of 10.

Now..I hope you have notice the influx of prebuilt structures..

RTR and prebuilt structures are the future of the hobby..

[selector]

Here's to RTR. May they populate every layout where they are needed and/or desired. I spend enough time on things trains, thank-you very much, and I don't need to get my skin alabaster white by staying indoors any longer than I already do by taking up train building. I'll leave that to others who are so inclined. Me, I like the turn-key approach....turn the key and the loco approaches. [:D]

[Anonymous]

my athearn b-b gp38-2 is missing the handrailings and #boards and i'm happy w/ the detail, it's one of my favorite engines

[wctransfer]

I love RTR locomotives. the reason is most of the time the company gets the details correct, does well with the font and color. I dont have and airbrush,workbench, any of that. The only thing i have is glue! I even get satisfaction of glueing some details on, it may sound stupid , but thats all i have. For looks i go RTR, but if i want to do something , and i have a lot of time, i get a kit. I buy a lot of RTR stuff, and am pleased with them all. Some guys think too highly of themselves, and all i say is shove it.

Alec

[Anonymous]

I think it is up to each individual and their own talents, and of course I agree time. Never enough time. I buy ready to run and some kits, but if I had a choice it would be all ready to run items.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

'LOCOMOTIVE (and other) KIT'S have alway's been 'minority' items for the hobby. LaBelle, Ambroid, and Intermountain's 'Craftsman' kit's primary appeal is to those with ''Look what I Built" motivation ... or possibly a hidden Masochistic streak - so what is wrong with that? ATHEARN's longtime popularity has been based on 'Shake the box' kit's that were cheap. (I wonder if there are still Athearn engine's running without their railing's that required soldeing?).

Don, locomotive (and other) kits have always been minority items in the hobby? I'm not sure where you've been but let's face facts, from the 1930's up through the mid 1980's our hobby was all about kits of every kind! For many years the only RTR stuff was mainly low end junk that no serious modeler even wanted...or very expensive brass.

What I think folks have to appreciate is that the craftsmanship is slowly going out of the hobby and this is what may have upset those two guys in the hobby shop. The current excuse is that the hobbyist has less time to build locos and cars, needing it to work on his layout. But an ever increasing range of RTR structures, roadbed, trees, etc. are becoming the standard and I'm sure finished commercial layout modules will be commonplace and popular before this decade is out. We are clearly moving away from the older craftsman's hobby that dominated for so many years and toward one of simple collecting and it is this that many established modelers resent.

CNJ831

[Train 284]

I agree with you brother all the way! I would never even think of building my own loco. That guy is just a big dumb s***

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy
[What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock?

I must claim that I am in the Kit Building Camp.

Here are my bones of contention with ready to run/ready to install model railroad items.

1. They are more expensive than kits of similarly detailed items.

2. They are harder to customise because if you want to change something. You have to dissassemble it in order to re work it. While this isn't that big a deal on Rolling Stock. Ready to Install buildings it causes serious problems, Instead of changing them on the sprue, It has to done another way.

3. All the "Fun" is gone.

4. I personally have terrible luck with ready to run purchases. Every piece of RTR equipment that I was given or have broke down and purchased. (Just for sake of comparison. I am only discussing "New" items) Have had what I deem to be serious quality control issiues.

5. If everything goes to ready to run. Who is going to put the Model in Model railroading? We will have to change it to Miniature Railroading.

Just how I feel about it.

James

[Don Gibson]

'LOCOMOTIVE (and other) KIT'S have alway's been 'minority' items for the hobby. LaBelle, Ambroid, and Intermountain's 'Craftsman' kit's primary appeal is to those with ''Look what I Built" motivation ... or possibly a hidden Masochistic streak - so what is wrong with that? ATHEARN's longtime popularity has been based on 'Shake the box' kit's that were cheap. (I wonder if there are still Athearn engine's running without their railing's that required soldeing?).

Dealer's have to stock what SELLS - if they want to stay in business.

If WE want to pay someone to assemble our product's for us (Chinese labor) that's our option. For those choosing to do their own, there is BOWSER, INTERMOUNTAIN, and other small specialty companies - but only if you hurry. Does anybody remember when car kit's were a block of wood or stripwood?