Anybody else getting annoyed........

[tstage]

In the 3+ short years that I've been in this hobby - locomotives aside - I've only bought 2 or 3 RTR items for my layout.  Everything else that I've purchased has been either kits, kitbashed or scratch-built.

Now, I don't say the above to brag or put myself up on a pedestal.  Personally, I just really enjoy and find greater satisfaction with this aspect of the hobby.  However, as mentioned above, on a rare occasion I have bought RTR because it's either not available in kit form and/or it's better than something that I could ever scratch-build myself.

Can we not all agree that there is room for both - i.e. RTR and kits (or do-it-yourself) - in this splendid hobby of ours?  Why must we be bickering amongst ourselves and call one another out on such petty arguments.  Just because I prefer doing things myself doesn't mean I have to look down my nose at someone else who prefers to buy it off the shelf, and vice-versa.

Some of you are concerned how the hobby is perceived by the outside non-MRR world.  If I were to use parts of this heart-warming and endearing thread as an example, I'd have to say that we're just a bunch of old, smug, contankerous, pugnacious and malcontent lone wolves that don't know how to get along with each other, let alone the rest of society.  (Okay.  Perhaps that's a bit unfair.  Some of us aren't old.)

As Joe said, life is just too short to find things to argue about or get annoyed over - particularly when it comes to model railroading.  It's time to move on, to edify rather than vilify one another, and let this kind of thread sink to (and remain at) the bottom of the pond where it belongs.

Sorry to be so blunt... 

Tom

[Derrick Moore]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)
Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out

But isn't it that by definition anything divided by itself is 1? Engineer in me is also coming out.

Sorry lets try again!

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)

Actually, that's the tricky thing. In some fields of higher matheimatics the definition that any number divided by itself equals one is "superior" to the rule that any number divided by zero is undefined. So the correct answer to zero divided by zero equals one. That's one definition used in some higher mathematical fields. But usually it's just considered indeterminate.

So there is no real answer - it depends on what you're doing.

Kinda twists your brain around, doesn't it?

I think I learned this in abstract algebra, or perhaps it was in Partial Differential Equations.

Don't go to school for thirty years and they go and change EVERYTHING.

I remember specifically being told that 0/0 was NOT 1 but that was a long time ago. I thought (i) was going to come up in this, I never did get that square root of -1 stuff. That's probably why I became a mechanic.

Ah the joys of imaginary numbers!!! What was it? i x i = -1, thus the square root of -1 equals i? Or something like that . . . . . .

If everybody is going to talk about math, then one of ya guys can solve this problem:

Model railroading is models of real trains in which 1in.=87in.(?). If a model of a modern diesel locomotive is 8in., how long is the real locomotive? (have fun!)

 

By the way, I'm all for RTR. I do not have enough time to assemble kits.(Being in high school.)

[BRAKIE]

Joe said:

On the other hand, if you are into prototype modeling as I am (and as is popular in the hobby today), you can't just slap RTR equipment on the track and have it look right most of the time.

=====================================================================

Why not? The high end locomotives already have the added details..High end cars already have their details..Of course just placing a RTR engine or car on the layout after changing couplers out to KD's is what thousands of modelers do..As far as "prototyical modeling" I don't think that the majority of the modelers do that judging by the pictures I see in several WPFs.

There are still modelers that model the Chessie System that has no idea what the CS was and how none of the Chessie roads was merged.Most still fail to realize that the majority of the C&O and B&O units stayed on home rails during the Chessie era..That changed after the fomation of CSX in 1980.After 1980  you can run any locomotive constist to include Family Lines units as well.

[jfugate]

Life's too short to get annoyed by how anyone else does the hobby!

One myth that needs busted right away is that few people will have the time, resources, and motivation to build a large layout and to also scratchbuild/superdetail everything.

It comes down to priorities. Ready-to-run is a lifesaver for those who dream of having a large layout.

On the other hand, if you are into prototype modeling as I am (and as is popular in the hobby today), you can't just slap RTR equipment on the track and have it look right most of the time.

If you have a large prototype-based layout as I do then you have to pick and choose what you will scratchbuild or kitbash. Myself, I focus on signature structures, locos, and to a lesser degree cabooses. The rolling stock simply needs to look "good enough". But if you look closely at my rolling stock you will find mostly RTR equipment with weathering applied, and *that's it*.

Sure, there's a big move in the hobby today toward accurate freight car modeling. More power to those that enjoy that sort of thing -- I enjoy reading about it, but I can't afford to take the time needed to kitbash every single railcar on my 400+ roster to get hyper-accuracy. 

The other issue is on an operating railroad, every op session has breakage on equipment. So if you rework everything to be hyper-accurate, chances are it will eventually get damaged. But hey, the real railroads deal with car damage all the time as well, so we're not alone. If you run trains a lot, you will have damage and repairs -- just like the prototype.

So those that bemoan the trend of the hobby to RTR need to think again ... RTR simply means more people are building layouts to the stage they can actually have fun running trains -- and layout builders spend more money in the hobby than the few superdetailed locos and cars modeler (thus making the hobby market larger and healthier). Plus the hobby shift to hyper-accurate prototype modeling is keeping the need to do serious kitbashing and scratchbuilding an art that is alive and well.  

[R. T. POTEET]

Fred W;

I stopped monitoring this thread back at the end of July when it disappeared from the first three pages of the index; then, wallah, it is here again and I looked at your two recent responses and CNJ831's recent response.

In looking at my loose-leaf bound MRs for 1949 there is a prevailing word running through the advertising; KIT! KIT!KIT!. The word dominates the advertising for locomotives and cars, both freight and passenger. There was little advertising for structures; there were, I am sure, structure kits around but if you wanted structures you were expected to scratchbuild'em and there were a lot of articles in the pages of those MRs with prototype plans you could build from. There were also a lot of locomotive - both steam and diesel - drawings and numerous articles carrying titles like Building your XYZ 2-10-2 kit and Modifying the ABC 2-8-0 to a PDQ Railroad Class T and Scratchbuilding an IJK Reefer in O Scale. These type articles were still prevalent when I got into the hobby in 1962 and I read them with some interest and murmured "One of these days!!!"

I purchased a couple of Athearn GP30 body shells in 1964 and put them on Hobbytown of Boston's universal chassis' mechanisms - due to my model railroading inexperience at that time I did not realize that there was a defect in the GP30 cab but they ran great and when I first put them on the layout at the club I joined in Taxachusetts the following year and members there saw that I could pull the walls down with them there was a great deal of interest in Hobbytown of Boston.

My first assembling of an HO Scale kit was the direct result of a challenge. I had taken a defective - and I do mean defective, the kit had been heavily cannibalized - Varney Mountain kit back to the hobby shop in San Bernardino, Calif and the proprietor was trying to convince me to buy a Bowser K4 kit instead of having to give me my money back on the return. I didn't really want a Pennsy prototype but one of the hangers-on there that day gave me a challenge to build a kit and he suggested that I consider a Cary/Mantua Mikado assembly and I forked out about thirty-two fifty and walked out of the store with it. It took me a couple of months to put it together, I took the advice of a MR clinic feature and used jewelers rouge to break it in but when I took it back to that hobby shop to show it to the guy who had challenged me to build it he was nowhere to be found and I never saw him again; the hobby shop owner didn't really appear to know who he was.

But that experience had trapped me as it seems that Darth Santa Fe has been trapped! That was in 1968 and over the course of the next thirteen years I assembled 16 more die-cast locomotives -  Cary/Mantuas, Bowsers, and Hobbytown of Boston units; most of these had considerable superdetailing.. At the time I bolted HO Scale for N Scale in 1981-82 I was giving consideration to ordering a Tiger Valley diesel kit.

The thing I am trying to say by this is that times have changed and the new modeler wants an immediate availability of his purchase - that is Ready-to-Run. When you had to either build it yourself or assemble it yourself your availability of layout time did tend to suffer; today's modeler wants to be a runner and there is nothing wrong with that. The trackside photos features from those antique Model Railroaders[/] of mine frequently were annotated with captions like "Dinglefoot Cloudburst's 11 by 23 foot layout is home to 3 steam engines and 37 freight cars". It is hard to tell just how long it took Dinglefoot Cloudburst to accumulate his 'extensive' equipment roster but I'll lay odds that it took him more than one trip to the hobby shop to do it.

I once took the better part of a week assembling a [i]Silver Streak reefer kit! On the club layout referenced earlier some of the steam locomotives had been built from kits in the pre-WWII era. Many - perhaps even most - of the members of that club had home machineshops or at least owned either a milling machine or a lathe. Assembly time for some of those old kits could be weeks. Several members had extensive fleets of scratchbuilt steam engines. Now assembling a kit is not the easiest task in the world but many of these guys had cut their teeth in the pre-WWII era assembling these kits and they just accepted a smaller sized loco and car fleet as par for the course. That was one of the considerable joys of model railroading and they took great pride in watching that scratchbuilt and custom painted steam engine traverse the layout. Today there seems to be considerable whining about why a particular model has not ever been offered - at least never been offered in plastic - or why manufacturers never seem to offer a particular freight car heralded and painted for a particular railroad.

Those were the good ol' days and those days are denied me in N Scale which is a ready-to-run scale. Somebody down in Florida way back when Bill Halsey was on the Annapolis rowing team offered some N Scale craftsman kits but his advertising didn't stay in the magazines for very long.

I have given some attention over the years to Jim Boyd's Model Railroader article from September, '67 titled Lagged Boilers Are Easier and it never fails to set my chops drooling to doing some N Scale scratchbuilding utilizing a modified Life-Like/Walthers Berkshire to create a 2-10-4 Texas of some ambiguous parentage.

I'm not sure whether a brass bare-bones kit would really go over in this day and age; the "kids" do not want to put in that kind of effort and I don't necessarily labeled it as "laziness'. I remember my first superdetailing of a Cary/Mantua kit; I was terrified of getting everything right. What would I do if I missoldered a part? I did the same thing I did in the Air Force when I made a mistake soldering; I resoldered it! Early on I ruined several pieces by using too much heat and I wasn't particularly careful of cold-solder joints - I sometimes got sloppy in the Air Force too - but it turned out not to be that difficult and was pretty forgiving when you got right down to it.

ATTN CNJ831: I have smoked the peacepipe!!!  

[LD357]

 Copy-pasting from an entirely different thread, Ted?   You are mad aren't you??!!  LMAO

 WEll, no apology will be forthcoming and don't bother me with any stupid PM's, I couldn't possibly care less what you have to say to me.

 Consider this fiasco closed.

[Ted Marshall]

    I stand by my assertion that theres too many lazy,inept people out there and they whine about not being able to buy the most obscure,never seen and one-of-a-kind stuff, that only THEY would ever buy.

Whine, cry...the same thing. I didn't misquote anything.

[LD357]

 I WANT! I WANT! I WANT! GIMMEGIMMEGIMME!!  Jeesh!! There are so many produscts out there now that Walthers needs  A Sears & Roebuck size catalog to list them and now you want more??

 With the amount of super detail and company specific detail kits why in the world do you want the manufacturers to make an even more extensive line of products? and you want the entire BNSF and UP rosters?  GET REAL!!! If you want a particular piece of equipment and for some odd reason you can't find it at Walthers or one of the hundreds of other retailers...make it yourself!!

  It's sad that people today are so lazy and inept that they can't even make simple scratchbuilt pieces and want someone else to make obscure one-of-a-kind equipment just for them.

Case in point.

Ted, please read what I said and YOU quoted, where did I say ANYTHING about crying/crybabys??  Or whining for that matter.   You sure do take things personally don't you?  well, since thats the case I'll refrain from further dispariging comments on this subject.

 But if you're going to quote someone, get it right.

[Ted Marshall]

   I seem to have struck a nerve with you though and I wonder why? I didn't say scratchbuilders are better than anyone else, or that scratchbuilt equipment is better, you simply interpreted it that way.

  You said you have a thick skin and don't want to argue.....but your actions betray your true intentions. SO tell us.....why are you so insulted? surely you don't feel guilty for using RTR? everyone does it. And if you  feel as though you don't  have good modelling skills, then don't worry, not everyone can produce masterpieces, I know I sure can't.

You did strike a nerve, you refered to us as lazy and inept because we insist to be given what we want which was longer production runs of popular railcars with more road numbers. You suggested that we should stop crying and build it ourselves.

[LD357]

 I WANT! I WANT! I WANT! GIMMEGIMMEGIMME!!  Jeesh!! There are so many produscts out there now that Walthers needs  A Sears & Roebuck size catalog to list them and now you want more??

 With the amount of super detail and company specific detail kits why in the world do you want the manufacturers to make an even more extensive line of products? and you want the entire BNSF and UP rosters?  GET REAL!!! If you want a particular piece of equipment and for some odd reason you can't find it at Walthers or one of the hundreds of other retailers...make it yourself!!

  It's sad that people today are so lazy and inept that they can't even make simple scratchbuilt pieces and want someone else to make obscure one-of-a-kind equipment just for them.

Case in point.

 Well Ted, you'll notice I said simple scratcbuilding, no where did I say anything about involved massive construction, so my post isn't even relevant to this thread. I seem to have struck a nerve with you though and I wonder why? I didn't say scratchbuilders are better than anyone else, or that scratchbuilt equipment is better, you simply interpreted it that way.

  You said you have a thick skin and don't want to argue.....but your actions betray your true intentions. SO tell us.....why are you so insulted? surely you don't feel guilty for using RTR? everyone does it. And if you  feel as though you don't  have good modelling skills, then don't worry, not everyone can produce masterpieces, I know I sure can't.

[on30francisco]

Kinda torques me off, too. I really enjoy scratch building things, but had it not been for Bachmann's Spectrum RTR On30 series locomotives, I likely would not have gotten into that scale. Now, I have scratch built several On30 locomotives. I'll buy at least one or two more RTR locos, and I'm sure a lot of my rolling stock will be RTR. I think people need to mind their own beeswax.

The same here. The availability of quality RTR by bachmann has got me into On30. I've scratchbuilt some logging rolling stock and structures over 20 years ago for O scale narrow gauge and guess what - the stuff I scratchbuilt years ago is now available as a kit or RTR. I now use RTR for locos and rolling stock and simple kits for structures (I'd probably never buy a RTR structure) for On30 because what's available commercially is far better and cheaper than I could build - and the manufacturers know how to put those pesky little details in just the right places! Why reinvent the square wheel?

Besises On30, I model in Gn15 and Fn3 where scratchbuilding is a must, however, I find it an  extremely easy and relaxing activity due to the large size of the equipment. I still use RTR locos and might try to scratchbuild one some day. In this scale I can really build unique equipment that is not available commercially. 

[mobilman44]

Hi,

You know what I really like about this hobby?   Well it is that I can build and run my railroad anyway I want, and the only person I have to please is me!!!

I've been playing with trains since about 1954, and while I prefer kits for freight cars, I buy RTR for passenger and locos.  But you know, those RTR BLIs & P2Ks and Walthers are really not finished, and there are always parts to apply or details to add.

What does bother me is the fact that the "younger generation" IN MY VIEW does not seem to embrace kit building, and certainly not kit bashing or scratch building.  I'm 63 and I cut my teeth on model building (all kinds) and it was a major help in my hobby participation. 

All that being said, whatever gets folks into the hobby is OK by me.  Ha, I have 4 children (3 boys) in their late 30s/early 40s, and while they love to check out the ol man's layout and latest structure or car, they really couldn't care less about the hobby.

Hey, whatever you like - just ENJOY !!!!

Mobilman44

[RedGrey62]

It's interesting that this topic floated back to page 1.  I had the opportunity to talk to Stephen Priest this past weekend.  As many of you may know, he does some graphic art work for various manufacturers and told us that one has changed its prodcution ratio (kits to RTR) several times and setteld on 95% RTR and 5% kits because teh RTR keeps selling out.  I don't see the trend shifting anytime soon.

Rick

[tomikawaTT]

If I (note the emphasis) want an oompaloompa NOW, I'll do whatever it takes to get it.  If some kind manufacturer has seen fit to produce it, I'll happily buy RTR.  If (more frequently) it's something that has flown below the industry's radar, I'll kitbash or scratch it - and I include locomotives in this statement.

If the 'professional critics' don't like what I'm doing, or have done, they are welcome to their opinions.  They will gain extra points if they keep them to themselves, unless they include some special detail or technique that applies to the specific situation I'm dealing with ("You can substitute a crosspoint screw for the slotted one, it makes assembly easier.")  Negative general opinions delivered as Stone Tablets from Zion are NOT appreciated.

It's an individual hobby, and each of us is entitled to pursue model railroad happiness in an individual way.  Above all, have fun.

Finally, remember the Golden Rule - "He who puts up the gold, makes the rules."  (The Three Stooges didn't offer to buy or give you a kit, did they?)

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

 

[steamage]

Come to think of it, 4884bigboy, that happened to me too, the last time I was in a hobby shop. They have the hobby shop hangout boys there were full of comments that I didn't need to hear.
Not like its young people, its three old retired guys that should be home working on the layout. And minding their own business.
So I don't go to hobby shops much anymore, I'll just order through the mail.

[Ted Marshall]

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?

I couldn't agree more.

[Tilden]

I'm one of the "like to run'um" guys.  So RTR is fine by me.  Besides, by the time you put in and program a decoder, replace and adjust the cuplers, adjust/repair some details (that always seem to get damaged in shipping) and maybe add some weathering, RTR isn't all that "Ready" after all....

Tilden

[Ted Marshall]

 I WANT! I WANT! I WANT! GIMMEGIMMEGIMME!!  Jeesh!! There are so many produscts out there now that Walthers needs  A Sears & Roebuck size catalog to list them and now you want more??

 With the amount of super detail and company specific detail kits why in the world do you want the manufacturers to make an even more extensive line of products? and you want the entire BNSF and UP rosters?  GET REAL!!! If you want a particular piece of equipment and for some odd reason you can't find it at Walthers or one of the hundreds of other retailers...make it yourself!!

  It's sad that people today are so lazy and inept that they can't even make simple scratchbuilt pieces and want someone else to make obscure one-of-a-kind equipment just for them.

Case in point.

[Rick Martin]

Might as well add my .02 cents. In every hobby I've ever been in (model rr, plastic modelling, target shooting, ham radio) there have been people who seem incapable of seeing someone's viewpoint, especially if it goes against theirs. I'm more into plastic modeling now as a long time IPMS member and the problem with us has been the recent influx of completely built and painted model aircraft, armored vehicles etc. Many of them are offered by mainlline model kit makers and are finished versions of their kits. As a model contest judge I've not seen to many cases of someone trying to enter one in a contest but I'm sure it happens. Like RTR versus kits it all depends on your interest. During my active model railroading days I painted lots of PFM/Westside/Gem/ALCO etc. and built lots of blue box stuff. My military modeling backround always seemed to steer me toward undec. stuff. My model rr building interests always seemed to lean toward building/painting/decaling and occasionally trying to get a Mantua or Bowser kit to run right. Persistance always paid off in the end. For those who are annoyed the only advice I can offer is "Do what ya like" and ignore the self-righteous nit-pickers.    RickM

[fwright]

What is bothering me about today's market is not the RTR - I'm glad it's there.  And there are still quite a few very capable scratch builders, although they tend to be a little quieter than the RTR folks, at least on this forum.  But there are fewer and fewer kits, particularly locomotives, to bridge the gap in skills.  Most skilled scratch builders didn't start out that way.  They progressed through some kits on their way to becoming master craftsmen.  I still wish for the variety of locomotive kits that were available in the past.

Luckily for me, the vast majority of kits never get built.  So older, out of production, can still be found on eBay.  But it would be exciting to see some new locomotive kits that could be built into something to rival today's plastic RTR in both detail and running ability with reasonable skills.

just my thoughts

Fred W

[GearDrivenSteam]

Yeah, I know a dude who has bunches of old MDC Roundhouse stuff and thinks it's the greatest thing ever. I mean, the loco technology is 30 years old, the castings are for crap, the electronics is in the stone age. By the time he gets done building less than 1/10 of what he has, he'll be so old, he won't even be able to SEE his trains anymore. No tthat I'm bashing what he does. I'm glad he's having fun.....it doesn't sound like fun to me, though. But more power to him. I think were it not for RTR stuff, the hobby would be on a severe decline. I scratch build simple rolling stock now. Were it not for RTR stuff getting me into the hobby, I wouldn't even be doing that.

[dinwitty]

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?

 

consider I can handlay track and build a skillz required wooden kit interurban full of loose wooden piecese, I bought PCM's 2-6-6-4 RTR.

I thought about bashing RR Y6B to make one but since PCM did it, YAY!!!

I'd been working on remotoring the RR Y6B but the remade it quality with sound. YAY!!! me want one.

If a kit is available, I dont mind building and save bucks. This hobby is about having fun...so have fun.

 

[bearman]

And your post is a very good reason why I avoid clubs like the plague. Cliques develop, and, inevitably, there are those who claim that their way is the only way.  If you like RTR, great, go for it.  If you want to build a 4 X 8, fantastic, build one. If you want to place your railroad at ankle height from the floor, more power to you, lay the plywood on bricks.  My point is that it is your money, your railroad and if you are having fun then that is all that matters, and you should not have to justify your choices to anyone other than youself, and maybe a significant other of some type.

[tomikawaTT]

Some people need to separate the general population into smaller and smaller subgroups so they can attach themselves to the (in their perception) 'superior' group and look down on everyone else.  The more insecure they are, the more apt they are to make the subgroups smaller and place greater emphasis on the differences that make them 'superior.'  Hence, the idea that using RTR equipment, or employing professional layout builders, somehow lessens one's ability to be considered a 'real' model railroader.

OTOH, people who are secure and comfortable with themselves accept that different folks will do things differently, and that one size does NOT fit all.

As for me, I will continue to enjoy the work of all of my fellow model railroaders, and will give what help I can to all who ask for advice.  I sincerely hope that they all are having as much fun as I am with my off-the-shelf, RTR, kit-built, kitbashed and scratchbuilt track and rolling stock.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[Ted Marshall]

What inspired on30francisco to dig up this thread after a year and a half of dormancy?

Anybody else notice?

I'm getting a lil' annoyed here. LOL 

For real...Let's move on and bury this thread already. Please?

[Dave Vollmer]

For some of us, our choice of scale/prototype combination leaves us with less RTR than we'd like, and so kitbashing or scratchbuilding becomes necessary.  For example, PRR steam in N is not available RTR, so we must take matters into our own hands.

Trust me, I'd run RTR steam if it were available in PRR in N.  I have a PCM PRR M1b 4-8-2 on pre-order.

One's choice of modeling style is dictated by many things.  Each modeler answers only to his/herself as to what those things are.  In other words, debate on this subject is silly, because none of us model under the same set of circumstances.

[fwright]

I guess I see things a little differently.  2 years ago, I decided I wanted to get into HOn3 as well as 1900-era HO.  Then, the HOn3 motive power situation was somewhat bleak.  Used brass was more than I was willing to pay at the time.  The old kit standbys - the MDC 2-8-0s, and the MDC and Keystone Shays were going out of production.  Low-end brass - the FED and Ken Kidder - were soaring over the $100 mark, even though they generally required a complete rebuild to work well.  Nevertheless, I planned my free-lance prototype roster around these kits and low-end brass, and started buying them on eBay.  Cars would be built from a variety of craftsman kits.

In the past year, MicroTrains, Blackstone, and MMI have come out with affordable (relatively) RTR locos and cars.  They run very well and are all detailed well beyond what my limited, but improving, skills could hope to accomplish.  So the question becomes, for instance, do I hold off on doing an FED 4-4-0 rebuild (total cost with remotor/regear and extra details about $250), or wait and hope that Blackstone or MMI comes out with a superior RTR 4-4-0 in the next 2-3 years for about $350?

What I am saying backs up what CNJ and some others are saying.  In the past, I had no choice.  Now, thanks to a better income and RTR, I can choose how to spend my modeling time.  But at what cost to my nascent modeling skills?  Will the hobby be as interesting to me if I am not forced to stretch myself, but can instead buy myself out of tasks that appear challenging to me?  And finally, when I can no longer buy locomotive kits (very rapidly approaching), will I be up to the challenge of real scratchbuilding?

just my thoughts

Fred W 

[SOU Fan]

Being that I model modern day Southern Railway, there is a little amount of RTR stuff out there that I could buy.  I myself like to detail things so the RTR stuff is fine as long as  buy a detail kit if it's not detailed enough.

-Smoke

[IRONROOSTER]

The nice thing about RTR is that you can buy or build.  While I have scratchbuilt and kit built in the past, I don't have the time right now to do that and still get a layout going.  So I use as much RTR as I can.  I buy kits that I like because they have a way of not being around later on, but I won't be building most of them until I retire in a couple of years.

Way back when, people looked down on kit builders, then they looked down on plastic kit builders, now it's RTR.

I think what RTR's popularity reflects (at least partly) is the desire to have a model railroad bigger than a sheet or two of plywood; but not enough time to build everything.  40 years ago RTR was available, but was looked down because the detail wasn't there except in brass which was too expensive for most.  Now the detail is there, affordable for many, and you can focus on building the layout.  Actually, the layout is like a huge scratchbuilding/parts building project It's just that the parts are engines, switches, flex track.  But you still have to plan it, lay it out, and build it.

What's interesting is the way the toy train people were split off from the hobby year ago, but now the two camps are closer together.  Most of the S market is the same except for wheels, couplers, and track.  The two largest S producers sell their line to both the scale and the toy train markets - just the wheels and couplers are different (Showcase line actually sells everything but steam locomotives set up for hi rail, but with scale wheels included and mounting pads for kadees).  In O the same thing is happening with Atlas and others. And some of the hirailers are scratchbuilding or kitbuilding structures for their layouts.

As for the snobbery, that will always be there in some form or another. There is this desire people have to say "I'm better than you". But I ignore it, life's too short and I have a railroad to build.

Enjoy

Paul 

[simon1966]

I think it should be noted that this concept of kits for freight cars and locos a-la Athearn is somewhat of an American phenomenon.  Growing up in the UK, all the MRR rolling stock that I purchased was R-to-R, I am not sure if it was even possible to get rolling stock in kit form?  In my experience this has been the situation with the vast majority of European model RR manufacturers.

I happen to enjoy kits and scratchbuilding, especially for structures.  I also like to build simple freight car kits with my two sons.  As long as my needs are being met, I could care less what everyone else wants to do with their hobby dollars.

[secondhandmodeler]

I understand digging up an old converstion to add your own two bits.  Why would you address the original poster if they havn't added anything to the conversation for a year and a half?  I was just wondering.

[BDT in Minnesota]

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?

If it doesnt ring true, it probably isnt.  This story seems to me to be "too out there" to be true.

I think you need thicker skin. To get into an arugument over kits is just stupid.

David B

Don't sell it off as far-fetched simply because you've never seen it happen. I have seen it and I've run into narrow minds just like those described. Be thankful they haven't crossed your path with their 'my way is the only way' attitude. I have a neighbor who's exactly the same way. I really pee'd in his Cheerios one day when I spied him bringing home a pre-assembled Amtrak loco. That shut him up, but good!

Absolutely! I seen it myself and there is no call for such uppity comments from folk like that!

Larry, I agree.....I have seen and experienced this type of behavior far more than once... Some butt-heads live in such a small world that picking on someone else is their only methiod of self expression....This behavior has NOTHING to do with a hobby; it is a personality problem...and birds of a feather flock together, and,  misery likes it's own company....thus a flock of three...

You could have just as well have run into these guys in Wal-Mart while you were looking for an oil filter for your car..You would probably get the same type response...

These three guys could be some of the best craftsmen in the state, but their behavoir is not doing THEIR hobby any favors with their lack of good-will.

 

[Martin4]

I don't mind about RTR vs Kits; to each his own! I do prefer to build kits but much of the modern cars exist only as RTR so I bought them anyway. But I would like to see every item issued as RTR be also available as a kit.

Martin

Québec City 

[BRAKIE]

CNJ831,I fully agree there are difference in clubs and modelers in other areas.Tis the way it has always work.Sadly I agree we will see a split in the hobby even though there is no need for such as long as advanced modelers buys RTR locomotives and cars.You see the hypocrisy I was talking about in my statement? Advance /serious modelers looking down at the RTR modelers while buying RTR Atlas,P2K,Genesis and Kato.Another split I see is the so called "serious" modeler/operator breaking off from the good enough/close enough modelers and where will that leave the casuals?? I suspect in their own camp.

I also  feel that RTR,Prebuilt structures,weathered cars and custom built layouts will become the norm.

CNJ831,I don't know what the hobby will be like in 5 or 10 years but,I expect it will be quite the ride getting there.

[selector]

... To which I'll repeat that one should not go by what they see/read here as being representative across the hobby because of this forum's make-up...

CNJ831

I was not able to appreciate the truth of this statement until I was recently invited to participate in a forum where I am very much out of my element, and where, as CNJ831 states, there are clear demarkations in ability and skill over the heavy majority of posters here.   Except for my self-intro back about two months ago, I have remained absolutely still...and silent. 

Lurking is good.

[CNJ831]

CNJ831,I am a long time modeler and have no qualms about buying RTR cars and engines after all Atlas been RTR for years so,its just not the new modeler..Look closer and you will find old timers are buying RTR if they want Atlas,Genesis,P1K,P2K or Athearn.

You see I been around long enough to know RTR isn't any thing new under the sun as many like to think.

Want proof?

RTR dates back to the 50s with factory painted brass engines.Then in the 60s we had tons of RTR cars and locomotives!

http://www.hoseeker.net/]

From the 50s to 2007 RTR has been around in one form or the other.

The only difference is today its widely accepted.

So,Why the hubbub over nothing but,market demand set by all modelers regardless of skill level or age?

Its hypocrisy at work if these "advanced" modelers are buying Atlas,Genesis,Overland,P2K or Athearn locomotives or cars since these are RTR while looking down their long noses at those that only buy RTR...

Honestly, in my circle of modelers I don't find the fellas rushing out to buy the latest RTR locos or anything else RTR. Here and there we may pick up something that goes straight to the layout but in general we continue to purchase what we always did, building mainly kits of one description or another, airbrushing, decaling and weathering them, ourselves. Certainly, I can't speak for your circle. 

I certainly don't need any proof about the early existance of RTR. In fact, it can be traced back further than you suggest, almost to the very beginnings of model railroading...back to the pre-war custom builders (Lobaugh, Stock, et al.). Even Mantua Metal Products offered a few of their pre-war engines RTR...at a price. However, this was a decidedly minority situation. And, yes, occasional painted brass was to be found on some small minority of layouts in the 1950's but, as we both know, rare was the situation when the owner hadn't completely disassembled and reworked them almost totally after purchase, like some unique craftsman kit. Most early brass didn't run very well and was often inaccurate. Those who bought John English, PennLine, Mantua, et al. RTR also generally modified and customized them. Endless books and articles instructing you how to convert them to this or that prototype were around. That's clearly different from today's RTR, that goes from the box to the track untouched.

Selector says things change and RTR is paving the way to the hobby's future. To which I'll repeat that one should not go by what they see/read here as being representative across the hobby because of this forum's make-up. I would, however, suggest that hobbyists keep an eye out for a possible schism in the hobby somewhere down the road, with traditional modelers going one way and those heavily into RTR another. If one looks carefully at the current major magazines they'll already detect such leanings. I do recall it happening in the 1950's, when increasingly sophisticated HO totally divorced itself from Hi-rail and O tin-plate, which once were considered as much a viable part of the hobby as HO. MR and then RMC totally bannished them from their pages for nearly 40 years. And most of you probably aren't aware that there were even two distinct levels HO model railroading back during the 1950's. So just keep in mind that history has a strange way of repeating itself...

CNJ831

[BRAKIE]

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?

If it doesnt ring true, it probably isnt.  This story seems to me to be "too out there" to be true.

I think you need thicker skin. To get into an arugument over kits is just stupid.

David B

Don't sell it off as far-fetched simply because you've never seen it happen. I have seen it and I've run into narrow minds just like those described. Be thankful they haven't crossed your path with their 'my way is the only way' attitude. I have a neighbor who's exactly the same way. I really pee'd in his Cheerios one day when I spied him bringing home a pre-assembled Amtrak loco. That shut him up, but good!

Absolutely! I seen it myself and there is no call for such uppity comments from folk like that!

[vsmith]

I'm a big kitbasher and have built about 1/2 my loco fleet, and advocate for people to give it a whirl, but I have no biased against anyone who would prefer to roll it out of the box onto the layout.

I do alot of bashing because in my scale (large scale) there is still a huge dearth of whats avalable so we still have to build alot, but heck I know kit building let alone kitbashing isnt easy and can intimidate the hell out of people, so if they prefer to pass, fine with me.

I have RTR stuff on my roster also, I find the snobby attitude described in the initial post to be a real detriment to the hobby, but the knuckleheads are in every hobby unfortunatly, and no matter what you do, someone will find fault in it, so you just learn to ignore these various snobs (weathering snobs, scale snobs, era snobs, detail snobs, etc) and focus on your own interests and skills.

PS my reply to these guys would have been " Who da hell are you to tell me what ta buy? Have you seen my roster?, have you seen my layout? so you know how much of my stuff is bashed and how much much is RTRs? Shut the pie-hole and mind yer own biz, buttmunch!"

PSPS I had a similar experience also in my very early HOn30 days, so it does exist out there

[jeffrey-wimberly]

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?

If it doesnt ring true, it probably isnt.  This story seems to me to be "too out there" to be true.

I think you need thicker skin. To get into an arugument over kits is just stupid.

David B

Don't sell it off as far-fetched simply because you've never seen it happen. I have seen it and I've run into narrow minds just like those described. Be thankful they haven't crossed your path with their 'my way is the only way' attitude. I have a neighbor who's exactly the same way. I really pee'd in his Cheerios one day when I spied him bringing home a pre-assembled Amtrak loco. That shut him up, but good!

[BRAKIE]

CNJ831,I am a long time modeler and have no qualms about buying RTR cars and engines after all Atlas been RTR for years so,its just not the new modeler..Look closer and you will find old timers are buying RTR if they want Atlas,Genesis,P1K,P2K or Athearn.

You see I been around long enough to know RTR isn't any thing new under the sun as many like to think.

Want proof?

RTR dates back to the 50s with factory painted brass engines.Then in the 60s we had tons of RTR cars and locomotives!

http://www.hoseeker.net/]

 

From the 50s to 2007 RTR has been around in one form or the other.

The only difference is today its widely accepted.

So,Why the hubbub over nothing but,market demand set by all modelers regardless of skill level or age?

Its hypocrisy at work if these "advanced" modelers are buying Atlas,Genesis,Overland,P2K or Athearn locomotives or cars since these are RTR while looking down their long noses at those that only buy RTR...

 

[selector]

Things change.  Some move with it, some demure, some fall back.  I understand what CNJ831 says...his message is oft repeated.  What we should not also "fail to realize" is that those who are buying RTR now are paving the future of the hobby, not its past.  This trend shows no signs of reversal, and if anything is growing by leaps and bounds.  The demand is there, and it is defining the hobby.

I admire those who have done great self-development and skills-building in earlier times because it obviously set the stage for the hobby.  The previous generations have had their giants, and so will this one.  In time, we'll also be supplanted by a new cachet, style, and technology, and we'll try to convince the newcomers how easy they have it.

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

I have no problem with viewing a builders achievements with respect and admiration, as long as he/she doesn't push their way on me as the ONLY way with all others being wrong. That's where I draw the line between a respectable person and a hypocrite!

[reklein]

Was thinking about this RTR thing and realized that ,when I worked in a hobby shop for about six mo. about a year or so back, I had noticed that the RTR trend just isn't in MRing. R/C planes are almost all Ready to Fly with the new e-technology. Helicopters can be bought for $40 and flown in your living room. The R/C car market is similar too. The good thing is that a lot more people who don't have the time and talent to build are able to enjoy the hobby as well. Building models is still very popular as the Fine Scale Modeler mag can attest to. But the more compliated the model the fewer afficianados one finds. The thing for us to do is recognize the values others place in their collections and the collections of what they've built.

[One Track Mind]

Good post CNJ831...I happen to agree with you for the most part, as a middle-aged timer who has done a little scratchbuilding in the past, a little detailing and a little painting and decaling...

What I've never understood is why the different folks at different levels cannot just peacefully co-exist in the same world.

And that is a two way street...for all the venom I hear spewed toward the RTR crowd, I hear just as much from the RTR bunch toward the "rivet counters and the nitpickers."

I know some of the swipes are just in good fun, but why not let folks enjoy this hobby to the extent that they wish to enjoy it and in whatever manner they choose?

And it's not just old-timers who look down at the RTR people, there are some younger people who are into scratchbuilding and detailing, and they lament the current situation also.

As for the business side of it, I would dearly love to sell more scratchbuilding supplies and detail parts...but they do not sell like they did in the past.

The common thread is folks are working more hours than ever, to get even more money...and they "don't have the time" to put a kit together so they buy RTR. It's like a dog chasing his tail, but that is the refrain.

Maybe I am more tolerant because I most definately see ALL the different levels of this hobby and I welcome them all in my store just the same...and I don't have a problem with an experienced modeler trying to help a newbie get better skills (as we see on this forum) but I still don't understand why there has to be the animosity involved at times.

[CNJ831]

Perhaps to understand the distaste so many oldtimers feel toward what they view as the Johnny-come-lately, RTR crowd, the newer folks should step back and appreciate what the hobby has been all about up until recently.

For more than seventy years model railroading has been based almost totally on craftsmanship, developed skills, and creativity. Participants were proud of what they themselves could accomplish without excessive outside help or through purchasing. Except among those who bought brass, it was never a hobby about collecting and buying, in spite of what a few may claim. Traditionally, if you wanted to gain respect among fellow hobbyists, it was a matter of do-it-yourself. Very few, if any, ever bought their way in in the past.

The longtime modelers see the recent influx of folks who increasingly wish to only purchase RTR locos, cars, structures and even scenic elements, as an aberation and totally unrepresentative of what the hobby has always been about. These RTR newcomers are looked down upon as little more than model train collectors, seemingly unwilling to develop the skills viewed as necessay to go much beyond the track-on-plywood level of modeling on their own.

Is it any wonder, then, that RTRers are looked upon scornfully by oldtimers? This displeasure is further enhanced by the fact that the manufacturers are increasingly aiming their products at the RTR group because they are willing to expend far more cash on and purchase in greater volume,  products over the course of a much smaller time interval than their more creative hobbyist cousins. To the manufacturers it is, naturally, a matter of getting the greatest return on investment in the shortest time, not a matter of who represents the dominant segment of the hobby.

I expect that folks here fail to appreciate, perhaps even realize, this situation exists simply because the vast majority here are indeed newbies, RTRers, and mostly those who have yet to develop much in the way of advanced modeling skills. This is simply what this forum caters to...the entry-level folks. You have to admit that, in spite of the several tens of thousands of rostered members, this forum displays very little evidence of more than a handful of participants modeling with highly advanced level skills and having superior layouts. But believe me, these sorts of folks are still the great majority of the model railroading community.

The question of whether all-encompassing RTR is the hobby's future and savior, or will simply become a distinctly separate spin-off from those whose hobby is modeling in the traditional manner, is still very much in question. So, in the meantime, try to understand and appreciapte both sides of the matter and don't unjustly become hot under the collar too quickly.

CNJ831 

     

 

[One Track Mind]

Amen brothaslide! On my way to work this morning, I heard:

"I am no better, and neither are you...we're all the same, whatever we do...different strokes for different folks..."

Sly & the Family Stone had it right in 1969 and it's still right today.

there is a scratchbuilder who doesn't like the kitbasher who doesn't dig R-T-R...c'mon, everyday people! sing it with me! Get on the Love Train!

no I'm not on anything, just listened to the oldies station all day...

it's taken awhile, but for what it's worth, I've tried to discourage a lot of this kind of talk in my shop over the years. It's just not productive.

 

[brothaslide]

If we want this hobby to grow then we need to be more inclusive.  This type of "my way or the high way" attitude turns people off.

[R. T. POTEET]

Am I the only one with a repertoire of insulting comebacks like "Have you three thought about changing the air in your heads this weekend?"

[emdgp92]

I think there's enough kits and other goodies for us all to enjoy things. I like to build kits myself, but if there's nothing available that I want, I'll get an RTR. Most RTR stuff isn't *really* ready-to-run anyway. It's too clean! With that said, I have no problems about taking my RTR cars apart, dirtying them up a bit, and sometimes swapping out the couplers and/or wheelsets.

Also, I think the BB series by Athearn is great. They're simple, and easy enough for a beginner to assemble...who then might move into more difficult kits. If that's the case, I think we all win. 

 

[snagletooth]

 I didn't even know they still made kits for loco anymore. I thought it was all RTR, prepainted and detailed with DCC and sound. Who makes kits? When I hear kits, I think the old Bowser steamers.
 Any of those three guys build a Bowser? They probably buying undec BB's and think their building a kit.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

Call me square but I don't like sound locos either.

Ok Jeff, you're square. lol

I know, I'm old-school too.

[Ted Marshall]

Call me square but I don't like sound locos either.

Ok Jeff, you're square. lol

[jeffrey-wimberly]

Unfortunately I have come across the a lot of those 'I'll shove my way down your throat and make you like it!' types, some on this forum. I try to keep my distance from such types. I like RTR, I like Bachmann EZ track and the EZ Command. I also like Athearn BB locos and kits and I like using plywood as a base for my layout. I tried foam, had unbelievable static electricity problems with it and abandoned it. Call me square but I don't like sound locos either.

[Ted Marshall]

If I even bothered with them, I might have said, "And I still use rapido couplers!" (sorry if I caused anyone here to lose their lunch, but it is the truth)

Who cares what someone else thinks...it's your time, money, interest that matters to you. And even if you did nothing but kits, there would be someone else to come along and suggest you did it wrong. Enjoy whatever aspect of the hobby interests you most.

  Rob

Y'all know what this is coming to, don't you? Eventually nobody will want to share the hobby because of the criticism they may expect to receive because they build kits or prefer RTR or whatever.

I remember in November last year at a HO & N scale train show sponsored by a local club in Ft. Myers, a beautiful 3' long display of a scratchbuilt double track mainline with left crossover. Every rail, hand cut, bent, laid and spliced. Every spike hand driven. I mean...It was sweet.

I said to my girlfriend...Honey, doesn't this look familiar? I asked her this because the day before I was doing trackwork at home and she was there with me when I finished my third set of crossovers using Atlas Code 100 #6's. The guy, and I mean he was old with a long beard and mustache and thick glasses. I'll always remember those thick glasses. They caused his eyes to look three times larger than they already were, staring at me as I was marveling at his work.

He stood up, looked me square in the eye and asked me, how can this look familiar to you? Do you scratchbuild? Of course by now I'm a little intimidated by this guy despite the fact that he's old, blind and quite frail. "This is scratchbuilt and unless you scratch build your own track, you can't say this looks familiar!"  I was left speechless. Mr., I admire your work, I replied and walked away.

I was so excited to see such a magnificent piece of work. One that certainly must have taken this man months, if not years to make by hand. And mind you, it was only a three foot section, only to have all my questions that I was prepared to ask him vanish from my mind because all I wanted to do was get away from him.

He wasn't there to share, I say. He was there to shove "my way is the right way and your way is the wrong way" down my throat. Needless to say, this turns me off, big time and causes me to be reluctant to share.

[Train Master]

Manly men just fork over real cash to buy what they want."

Sounds good to me.

[fwright]

It's a Friday, and I feel like trolling....

As a kit builder, I would say, "Girlie men buy RTR.  Manly men build kits."

The scratch builders would of course say, "Girlie men buy RTR and build kits.  Manly men build from scratch."

And the RTR folks would say, "Girlie men don't make enough money to buy RTR.  They sit in the LHS complaining about others.  Manly men just fork over real cash to buy what they want."

TGIF

[Cederstrand]

If I even bothered with them, I might have said, "And I still use rapido couplers!" (sorry if I caused anyone here to lose their lunch, but it is the truth)

Who cares what someone else thinks...it's your time, money, interest that matters to you. And even if you did nothing but kits, there would be someone else to come along and suggest you did it wrong. Enjoy whatever aspect of the hobby interests you most.

  Rob

[Train Master]

I have very few kits. just a couple of buildings. Everything else is rtr.

[Gandy Dancer]

'LOCOMOTIVE (and other) KIT'S have alway's been 'minority' items for the hobby.

I've never considered kits or RTR to be a one or the other sort of thing.  Let me think,  If I only ran models made from kits (I'm not considering Athearn BB to be a kit here). ...... I would have a few Roundhouse steam engines, 1 Bowser, a Hobbytown RS-3, and 20-30 freight cars, and 10-15 or so passenger.  Most of those cars are the almost trivial Roundhouse type kits.  So if I go further and only count craftsman type kits I would have 5-10 freight cars, and 5 passenger (which I did not build myself).  Not much of a showing.  I would guess that is less than 3% of my operational fleet.  If I counted the non-operational fleet it is probably much higher percentage of kits - but hey, that is why they are non-operational.  I don't have time to assemble them.  Don't even have time to add weight and put Kadee's on the RTRs in the non-operational fleet.

to dig up this thread after a year and a half of dormancy?  Anybody else notice?

OOps, no I didn't notice.  I sometimes like old threads.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

What I don't like is when someone I did not ask tells me what I should do and buy as far as my hobby goes.

When I need help or want advice I am quite capable of asking, it would seem some people just don't get we all build our railways the best we can with the skills we have.

If others don't like it I figure they have the problem not me

regards John

[John Busby]

Hi 4884 big boy

I see it this way

Is the loco I want available good RTR yes Buy it, NO look at kits, is the kit simple yes Buy it No forget it. do I need to scratch build said loco yes then my MRR don't need it.

It is not what you buy or what you build yourself that creates the model railway but how the collective whole is blended together.

What I don't like is when someone I did not ask tells me what I should do and buy as far as my hobby goes.

When I need help or want advice I am quite capable of asking, it would seem some people just don't get we all build our railways the best we can with the skills we have.

If others don't like it I figure they have the problem not me

regards John

[Ted Marshall]

What inspired on30francisco to dig up this thread after a year and a half of dormancy?

Anybody else notice?

I'm getting a lil' annoyed here. LOL 

[Dallas Model Works]

The worst thing about just about any hobby is the people who want to impose "my way" on everybody else.

If you like RTR, fine.

If building locomotive/rolling stock/structure kits floats your boat, hooray.

If you like some combination of the above, swell.

Whatever keeps somebody happy and active in the hobby is what matters!

[Anonymous]

I love building the "shake-a-box" kits, but loco kits just seem hard. Anyway, I don't want to worry about messing up a $100 loco. I also like simple buildings.

[CAZEPHYR]

We all tend to look at models and how we acquire them differently.  For whatever reason they gave an opionion on the RTR SD60, it could have been ignored by you.  Just because someone believes they have to built kits to have an exact correct model overlooks the fact that many of us do not have the ability or need to build our own.   You will find this at many large clubs also since the older members might be building kits instead of purchasing RTR.  I have always believed a comment like you heard is the lack of how the hobby works on their part.  We would not have any selection of trains to purchase if everyone felt the need to build their own models from scratch.

Having belonged to an older established club as my first real operating experience, I heard a lot of comments about how their varney locomotives did not have problems like the new and latest brass we were running experienced on the layout.  The best way to handle that type of  comment is to ignore them.  Get over the fact that we have varied tastes and interest in this hobby and most any other things that all of do every day.   I used to ask more questions of the person to have them point everything they think is wrong with the model.  Sometimes, they are not as swift as they want you to believe.

 If you like the RTR, buy it and enjoy the hobby.  Most of us tend to purchase RTR that need some upgrades but that is the quickest way to enjoy the experience.    

 

   

[jeffrey-wimberly]

I used to build a lot of kits but in recent years severe nerve damage from diabetes and spinal meningitis has made kit building very difficult, so RTR has become very attractive. Also the BB kits aren't bad. I can put them together without too much of a problem. Not so for the Proto 2000 kits. I tried one of their covered hoppers, big mistake. I won't do that again. That kit let me know that my kit building days are behind me. If I can get a loco or car that's already assembled for just a little more than a kit would cost I jump at it. My most recent purchase was a Proto 2000 Union Pacific FA1-FB1 set.

[BRAKIE]

'LOCOMOTIVE (and other) KIT'S have alway's been 'minority' items for the hobby. LaBelle, Ambroid, and Intermountain's 'Craftsman' kit's primary appeal is to those with ''Look what I Built" motivation ... or possibly a hidden Masochistic streak - so what is wrong with that? ATHEARN's longtime popularity has been based on 'Shake the box' kit's that were cheap. (I wonder if there are still Athearn engine's running without their railing's that required soldeing?).

Dealer's have to stock what SELLS - if they want to stay in business.

If WE want to pay someone to assemble our product's for us (Chinese labor) that's our option. For those choosing to do their own, there is BOWSER, INTERMOUNTAIN, and other small specialty companies - but only if you hurry. Does anybody remember when car kit's were a block of wood or stripwood?

 

Don,By the thousands those old Athearn units solider on and will for years to come..

Oddly I don't know of anybody that solder their Athearn handrails.

And time was modelers did indeed like to show their lastest kit built locomotive or car..That gave way to their newest brass locomotive and that gave way to todays RTR.

Oddly RTR is nothing new as many smart mouth model modelers think.

[galaxy]

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?

 

Heres's how you solve problems such as this: Ask them, politely of course, when was the last time they hand/scratch built or assembled  their rolling stock ( I.E. their car, truck, suv).

That should shut them up. RTR doesn't sound bad then? Oh, ANd stay away from chevy, honda and porsche because they are just crap. A Caddillac is better and so is KIa.

I like to take it run it right away. I have aslo built a few rolling stock Athern BB (oh hte horror!)

[on30francisco]

I much prefer scratchbuilding and find it much easier than assembling craftsman kits. Although you can customize craftsman kits and kitbash, scratchbuilding allows you almost unlimited freedom when it comes to designing and building unique models. I prefer RTR for locos and have no desire to build a loco from a kit. If I want to customize it, I can do it at my leisure. A lot of today's RTR is supurbly detailed and runs excellent right out of the box (the way I like it). I've noticed there are a lot of supurb structural craftsman kits available for HO and On30. Although this is a good thing in that it helps promote the scales and encourages people's creativity, it discourages me because my incentive to scratchbuild is diminished. Why reinvent the wheel? Let's face it; with the high technology available (eg laser cutting and extremely precision machinery) to the makers of today's RTR, it is very difficult and tedious to kitbuild or scratch something of equal quality - especially in the smaller scales. I now model On30 as a secondary scale and use a lot more RTR. There is no incentive for me to build a model that's available in RTR that looks better and is cheaper than anything I could ever build. I have gravitated towards narrow gauge indoor Large Scale modeling (from a model railroader's perspective) due to my love of scratchbuilding unusual rolling stock, structures (especially with wood), the ease of super detailing, and building models that aren't available commercially, however, I still like and use RTR for locos.

[waltersrails]

i agree i like both i'm on your side on this.

[davekelly]

Some folks like operation, some scenery building, some just like watching trains go round and round.

[Anonymous]

I would imagine some people really like to weather train cars whether they are rtr or kits. That could be one option.

[Anonymous]

Still no one has answered my question.

What do you do since every RTR piece has had the fun taken out of it???

Respectfully and Inquisitivly Yours,

James

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by on30francisco

If it wasn't for Bachmann's line of RTR On30 locos, I probably wouldn't be into this scale. I really enjoy scratchbuilding rolling stock and structures using stripwood and detail parts, however, if there's an RTR product available for something I want at a reasonable price, I'll buy it. I have also built some rolling stock and structure kits and enjoy them. Some of the RTR products available today are very detailed and sometimes cost less than it would to scratchbuild them. In those cases I will buy RTR. What I strongly dislike is assembling very finicky and intricate parts (such as truck frames). If a kit involves this kind of assembly, I will buy an RTR version. Although I enjoy building things, I also like running trains. The rolling stock that I scratchbuild must operate flawlessly - even if it involves omitting or compromising some details.

When I started in G I was like you, RTR only, but as I got deeper into it, I found I really wanted lokies and cars that the mfrs simply refused to do so out came the razorsaw and Dremel tool and I started bashing and later scratchbuilding. Its only a matter of time before you get your first kit, I've seen some truely awesome HO to On30 conversion kits for sale, give one a try, you might just surprise yourself at how much fun it can be[;)][:D]

edit At least you On30 guys can GET kits, we dont even get THAT luxury...[V]

[Anonymous]

mrdls1
Don't let brakie discourage you from any forum, posting anything, participating in this or the hobby. There always has to be ONE person who thinks they are the "KING" of the hill. Brakie is a very negetative influence to new modelers. From previous posts you will find he thinks HIGHLY of himself. His attitude is obviously relevant to his level of education.

When you first get involved in the hobby there are many things people are not aware of. Only by asking questions do you learn. If brakie is annoyed by your post he should avoid it, just like I avoid ALL of his. Just because he has hit his enter button on this forum more times than most people doesn't mean he has given anything credible to the discussion.

As for Brakie it is long past due someone told you so. Your negative influence to new people give this hobby and the people who do it a bad name. If you don't like my statement shoot away. But I have come to disregard any post you make because of your attitude toward certain people on this forum. It is uncalled for.

[on30francisco]

If it wasn't for Bachmann's line of RTR On30 locos, I probably wouldn't be into this scale. I really enjoy scratchbuilding rolling stock and structures using stripwood and detail parts, however, if there's an RTR product available for something I want at a reasonable price, I'll buy it. I have also built some rolling stock and structure kits and enjoy them. Some of the RTR products available today are very detailed and sometimes cost less than it would to scratchbuild them. In those cases I will buy RTR. What I strongly dislike is assembling very finicky and intricate parts (such as truck frames). If a kit involves this kind of assembly, I will buy an RTR version. Although I enjoy building things, I also like running trains. The rolling stock that I scratchbuild must operate flawlessly - even if it involves omitting or compromising some details.

[Todd McWilliam]

I like putting together Athearn kits, but time is an issue, so I prefer to by Athearn rtr. I have about 10 kits I have never got around to doing. I really enjoy the kits.

[lyctus]

I think folk should adopt a more global view of the hobby. Each of us has different talents, electrical, scratch building,structures,scenery and some of us dabble in all aspects. I like to see the layout and all that is part of it "the hobby" , so if you prefer RTR locos or/and rolling stock, go for it. How you operate your railway is your hobby, your buzz. Just enjoy it, and BTW, there must be some of us buying RTR locos....there are hundreds on offer....and thousands sold....

[IRONROOSTER]

Wow, this thread took off.

First I have personally built locomotives, cars, and structures from kits - both plastic and craftsman. I have, also, scratchbuilt cars and structures as well as handlaying track. I have bought RTR locos, cars, and track (probaby will for structures when they are available).

My personal opinion is: life is short and this is a hobby, do the fun stuff and buy the rest. Whatever that is for you. For me it is an eclectic mix of all the above as mood and whimsy moves me.

Enjoy
Paul

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)
Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out[:D]

But isn't it that by definition anything divided by itself is 1? Engineer in me is also coming out.

Sorry lets try again!

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)

Actually, that's the tricky thing. In some fields of higher matheimatics the definition that any number divided by itself equals one is "superior" to the rule that any number divided by zero is undefined. So the correct answer to zero divided by zero equals one. That's one definition used in some higher mathematical fields. But usually it's just considered indeterminate.

So there is no real answer - it depends on what you're doing.

Kinda twists your brain around, doesn't it?

I think I learned this in abstract algebra, or perhaps it was in Partial Differential Equations.

Don't go to school for thirty years and they go and change EVERYTHING.

I remember specifically being told that 0/0 was NOT 1 but that was a long time ago. I thought (i) was going to come up in this, I never did get that square root of -1 stuff. That's probably why I became a mechanic.

Ah the joys of imaginary numbers!!! What was it? i x i = -1, thus the square root of -1 equals i? Or something like that . . . . . .

[Pruitt]

Here's my take on the subject at hand -

Model railroading is like life - it 's different for each of us.

If RTR is your thing, that's fine by me! I'm not going to presume to declare that you aren't a Model Railroader just because everything you own came full-up out of the box, or that your efforts are somehow inferior to my own just because you pursue the hobby in a way I don't. In fact, the only way I'll even suggest that you change your approach to the hobby is if you tell me you aren't having any fun with it.

Other than that - do whatever floats your boat. I only ask the same consideration for myself.

[douginut]

Please, In a way I agree with you, but many of us are Kit BUYERS. NOT kit builders.
also it's YOUR railroad. You are the sole stock holder. You are the Mechanical department. What anyone else does with his money and time is their business, if they want to BUY you the kits, they listen to them.

ENJOY!
Doug, in Utah

[Anonymous]

Brakie,
yea i understand and this will be my last post in this fourm. and as for the hobby i think ill find something else to do......................@ssHole

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by timthechef

I'm a kit builder too. I"m worried that kits are dissapearing from the market. I have to go to e-bay to find a simple steam engine kit. I've been trying to get chimneys for my railroad station project and can't find any at my local hobby stores. I understand that kits and scratch building is not for everybody, I'm just worried that the products in the hobby that I love are dissapearing.

I stopped at Davis Trains Friday and they have more wall space devoted to HO kits than to N scale rolling stock. I did see 1 N scale kit but nothing that I could use on my layout. Wood, styrene and brass for scratch building are easily available at the closest Hobby Lobby or art store if the LHS does not carry them. I don't think anything is disappearing but in some places it might be easier to find them.

[BRAKIE]

mrdls1,There are questions that should be ask..Then there are the no brainer questions we see every day on every forum that should never be ask..
Now how do you think we learn before the age of the computer and there was nobody to ask? Model railroading doesn't require a PHD..It does require common sense.A 10 year old child can put down a basic loop of track with industry spurs on a 4x8..So,again its not a rocket science but good common sense works wonders..
You don't go to the store and come home and say I got a yellow box..I THINK they are Cheerios.So by you saying "i did buy a few Athearn (i think thease are what u call blue box kits but being dumb im not sure" makes no sense at all..You see if you really bought any of those blue boxes it should say "Athearn..That is all you need to know because the moniker of BLUE BOX is just a nick name given to the Athearn kits that comes in blue boxes.Common sense son,common sense use it.
Now..Understand?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)
Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out[:D]

But isn't it that by definition anything divided by itself is 1? Engineer in me is also coming out.

Sorry lets try again!

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)

Actually, that's the tricky thing. In some fields of higher matheimatics the definition that any number divided by itself equals one is "superior" to the rule that any number divided by zero is undefined. So the correct answer to zero divided by zero equals one. That's one definition used in some higher mathematical fields. But usually it's just considered indeterminate.

So there is no real answer - it depends on what you're doing.

Kinda twists your brain around, doesn't it?

I think I learned this in abstract algebra, or perhaps it was in Partial Differential Equations.

Don't go to school for thirty years and they go and change EVERYTHING.

I remember specifically being told that 0/0 was NOT 1 but that was a long time ago. I thought (i) was going to come up in this, I never did get that square root of -1 stuff. That's probably why I became a mechanic.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: What gets me annoyed are people putting down Athearn.
I've said it once, I'm gonna say it again " You can't go wrong with Athearn!'

no you can't -Athearns are affoardable, reliable, and long lasting There is a good number of Athearn engines i will be getting- Let those people put down Athearn then the prices of used Athearns will plummit[:D][;)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

I'm a smart, gifted and talented individual, and can build, assemble or repair just about anything you put in front of me - or at least I'll try. However, I don't put other people down because they can't. It took many years of trial and error for me to learn what I know and develop my skills. We're not all put together exactly alike. I also buy RTR any time I can.

Tracklayer

[Anonymous]

Bigboy you are right, some of the RTR cars Athearn has been coming out with are top of the line. I just picked up 2 of their new PS 3bay covered hoppers ,Wow the detail and the paint jobs are first rate. Check out their new 65ft mill gons, nice!!
Another thing annoying me and its on this forum once or twice aweek is the whining about price.

[jwar]

4884bigboy...Let it go..they are only big frogs in a very small pond.

I can hear the fire trucks comming..as I will get flamed over this.. and dont really care as this is only a hobby to me....BUT I see that every day on this forum, and wonder why some think everyone should follow the openionated.

Model railroading is no different then any other hobby, some are more advanced then others mainly due to monatary, skills and an internal desire to ones thing.

I could care less if one is into RTR, brass or whatever. This is a great hobby and I hope one shares and struts thier stuff...however some people here on this forum, in my personal openion, seem like they are a big frog in a small pond, by being snobs to others, as they get a tad rude buy showing their openions with very little respect to the other person.

I do respect ones openions untill they get a bit overboard by trying to force his views on me. As far as the modelers you mentioned, take them with a grain of salt and move on, or perhaps ask them about the car they drive, did they build it, or bought it RTR,....then just kindly LOL.

I was having a problem with some aspect of this hobby and one of the guys here got rather rude, as as I reread his statement to me and realiized he did not read my question at all, his anser was out in left field. This rather ticked me off, but then seen later he did this to others.


Take care...John

[grayfox1119]

Jonathan, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with RTR...end of story!! You will always find those people about who like to tell the rest of us what to do and how to do it WITHOUT being asked. I have bought BOTH types. Yes, RTR is more expensive, but that is an INDIVIDUAL choice, and no one else needs to get the hair up on their backs like an olde Tom cat. You could have just told these folks.." I don't recall asking for your opinion", but that would not be very nice at all. Or, you could just smile at them and say, " I'm loaded, price is no object, but I am so busy making all this money that I don't really have the time right now in my life to build these kits", I want to run them right away and get instant enjoyment. LOL

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by KenLarsen

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton
Actually, that's the tricky thing. In some fields of higher matheimatics the definition that any number divided by itself equals one is "superior" to the rule that any number divided by zero is undefined. So the correct answer to zero divided by zero equals one. That's one definition used in some higher mathematical fields. But usually it's just considered indeterminate.

So there is no real answer - it depends on what you're doing.

As a software writer, one thing I know for sure is that ANY quotient logic that attempts to perform a division by zero, will cause the application to crash![:D]

If true, then some would say Windows is filled with divide by zero functions! [:D][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

And tommorow "Nit Pickers" will still be picking "Nits". We either learn from their "wisdom" or are wise enough to shrugg them off. Each of us enjoys this "enterprise" in our own way. Much can be learned on the road less traveled, and listening to those who have traveled roads we ourselves have no seen or been on, yet. Perhaps some of us can be more tolerant of the ways others have gone, and appreciate that they are not walking in our shoes which are taking us where we are going, including down that fork less travelled, we may decide to take.
Will

[trainfreek92]

100% RTR for me[:D]

[brothaslide]

Sorry to hear about this. We need to find ways to make people feel included to help the hobby grow. When we alienate each other, it just hurts the growth of the hobby.

[Duce]

What most people dont think about is that we are in a hobby that has 1. many different levels of skill, and 2. Very Broad.
I have talked with people who enjoy buliding the kits and can really careless about anything else and if you take someone who is into scenery and show them his layout they would freakout. We each have our own reasons why we enjoy the hobby. I myself only have RTR at this point. However Im more into getting my layout up and running then to have a kit done at this point. I may in the future do some kits.

Its up to you in what you like. WHAT EVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK

[Tracklayer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tracklayer

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?[V][?]

I'm a smart, gifted and talented individual, and can build, assemble or repair just about anything you put in front of me - or at least I'll try. However, I don't put other people down because they can't. It took many years of trial and error for me to learn what I know and develop my skills. We're not all put together exactly alike. I also buy RTR any time I can.

Tracklayer

I bet when asked you also help those that can't build, assemble or repair things. I"m sure they learn a bunch too. [:)]

With the exception of my buddy Rob that I wrote about recently in my topic I'VE HAD ENOUGH!... Oh well. He'll either have to learn, or he'll have to find himself another hobby that doesn't require any skills.

Tracklayer

[BRAKIE]

Jeff,Don't characterize all old modelers as missing the "old" way..Many of us don't and truly enjoy todays RTR models.Heck,I enjoy the thought of prebuilt structures!!!

You just hit the old spike on the head in many ways other then kit vs RTR.[:D]

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton
Actually, that's the tricky thing. In some fields of higher matheimatics the definition that any number divided by itself equals one is "superior" to the rule that any number divided by zero is undefined. So the correct answer to zero divided by zero equals one. That's one definition used in some higher mathematical fields. But usually it's just considered indeterminate.

So there is no real answer - it depends on what you're doing.

Kinda twists your brain around, doesn't it?

I think I learned this in abstract algebra, or perhaps it was in Partial Differential Equations.

If it's thought of in a more practical way, this is something we All deal with. Wheather realizing it or not, we are all dealing with ohms law which states that current is voltage divided by resistance. Zero resistance is not something we deal with but in relative terms, think of what happens when a wire is laid across powered rails. The current draw shoots off towards infinity until it reaches the limit of the power supply. While the wire resistance may not be exactly Zero it is close enough to it in reference to the intended load of the power supply that one of 3 things will happen.. A, the smoke will come out of one part or another of the power supply, B, The fuse or circuit breaker will blow, or C, the district or entire system will shut down to protect itself (DCC) from overload.

To the topic of this thread.. Vent if you like, buy RTR if you like, build kits if you like, scratch build if you like, it's all about whatever You enjoy.. Anybody that thinks Brass is RTR has obviously never painted one, repowered one, or installed a decoder in one. Yes, you can take them out of the box, set them on the rails, apply power and they'll scoot down the track. However, if you want a finished model, RTR, NOT.

The fogies in the hobby shop are doing the same thing that has gone on for decades.. Lamenting (sp?) the way it Use to be. Pissed off that through all the mergers, acquisitions, and just plain dying off of the old kit manufacturers, they can't get what they think they want anymore. When in reality, most wouldn't let loose of the cash if it (whatever It is) Were still available. They'd find something about It to bash instead.

What I find disappointing at times is the current trend of Limited runs.. Mostly because by the time I've saved the ca***o get what I want, it's no longer available and I refuse to pay a collector price for something.

release valve closed, steam vented off..

Jeff

[David_Telesha]

I may be a little late.

I BUY ANYTHING THAT I SEE THAT I WANT [and can afford]!!!

I don't give a dang if its kit or ready to roll - if I'll be happy with it I'll buy it. I can build a kit and I can modify an RTR - if its a NH prototype and it meets my standard, its mine.

I have Proto 1000 engines, Athearn RTR RS-3's*, F&C Craftsman kits, and Branchline Blueprint kits all on my layout.

*= I'm still waiting for them to come in stock - but I do have them on order.

[tangerine-jack]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

I have to say this is one encounter you would never have in large scale...

I can only say that in my scale G, I only wish we HAD more kits of locomotives! 95% of everything motive related is RTR which leaves alot up to our kitbashing skills. what kits there are, are pricey and often poor running. Selection is still very limited. I've had better luck scratchbuilding and bashing to get what I want than waiting for kits that might not ever get produced. So as it is RTR is just a given for most modelers.

As for RTR in HO, I personally feel you should do what ever helps YOU to enjoy the hobby, these guys were being just plain rude!

Vic is right on the money with that, but he forgot to add that nobody can give a definative answer on just what the $#%@ing "scale" G scale actually is!!!! You can buy a "G" scale loco from one manufacturer and "G" scale cars from another, and one may be 1:22.5 and the other 1:32. Gives one a headache just thinking about it!

So all you HO scalers (me included!) quit whining about your astonishingly huge selection of cars, locos and accesories, KIT and RTR, get over your holier than thou attitudes if you think you found a "golden key" to model railroading. Come outside into the real world of model railroading GARDEN SCALE, and see for yourself how nice and un judgemental people can be in this hobby.

OK, I'm done now.

[vsmith]

I have to say this is one encounter you would never have in large scale...

I can only say that in my scale G, I only wish we HAD more kits of locomotives! 95% of everything motive related is RTR which leaves alot up to our kitbashing skills. what kits there are, are pricey and often poor running. Selection is still very limited. I've had better luck scratchbuilding and bashing to get what I want than waiting for kits that might not ever get produced. So as it is RTR is just a given for most modelers.

As for RTR in HO, I personally feel you should do what ever helps YOU to enjoy the hobby, these guys were being just plain rude!

[TrainFreak409]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Who is more a "model railroader" - the guy that builds only Bowser type locomotive kits and uses RTR track, shake the box rolling stock and structures, or the guy who uses RTR locomotives and rolling stock but handlays every inch of track, scratchbuilds every building and concentrates on realistic operations?

Along the same lines - it seems that another popular pasttime is to call anything less expensive than what one runs "junk" and anything more expensive than what one runs as "things for those that have more money than brains."

As far as I am concerned, and this is just my opinion of course, if a person is running something that looks like a train and is smaller than 1:1 scale, and is having fun doing it - that person is a model railroader.

[#ditto]

I like your logic there. And that's a great question. Who is more a model builders? I can't answer it. It's going around and around in my head, but I just can't get to an impass.

This hobby is for fun, and you should enjoy at you see fit. Ready-to-Run, or build-it-yourself, it's all fun and games in the end.[:D]

[Anonymous]

Wow, I had no idea this topic would grow so fast.

First off, thank you to those who posted the kind words. I was letting off steam and I guess I am whining about it, but it still ticks me off.

As most people who replied said, I too purchase my locomotives RTR. Rolling stock mostly kits, but an RTR piece is nice now and then. I would NEVER buy an RTR structure or one of those woodland scenics modules. That's where the fun REALLY stops. Locomotive kits are one thing, but it ain't that hard to build a structure, and you can be proud of it when it's complete, too. The same can be said for locomotive kits I suppose. I respect the people who prefer kits, but it'd be nice if they'd lay off a tad. I guess I really should just ignore people like the 3 I was talking to the other day.

BTW, does anyone even make an HO SD60 kit?????

[CP5415]

I don't get annoyed over it. I just shake my head!

What gets me annoyed are people putting down Athearn.
I've said it once, I'm gonna say it again " You can't go wrong with Athearn!'
These are words spoken to me when I joined the Sarnia Model Railroad Club in 1996 by someone who was running brass, Altas & Kato.

I still don't see the point in putting down Athearn but then again, I have been known to put down Kato & Atlas in the past.

Gordon
Gordon

[timthechef]

I'm a kit builder too. I"m worried that kits are dissapearing from the market. I have to go to e-bay to find a simple steam engine kit. I've been trying to get chimneys for my railroad station project and can't find any at my local hobby stores. I understand that kits and scratch building is not for everybody, I'm just worried that the products in the hobby that I love are dissapearing.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton
Actually, that's the tricky thing. In some fields of higher matheimatics the definition that any number divided by itself equals one is "superior" to the rule that any number divided by zero is undefined. So the correct answer to zero divided by zero equals one. That's one definition used in some higher mathematical fields. But usually it's just considered indeterminate.

So there is no real answer - it depends on what you're doing.

As a software writer, one thing I know for sure is that ANY quotient logic that attempts to perform a division by zero, will cause the application to crash![:D]

[simon1966]

Well this thread took off quickly. Spend a day away from the PC and look what happens.

Each to there own. If you want R to R get them, if not don't. Simple really? But why the emotion?

First of all I think it is worth differentiating between Loco's and Rolling Stock. All but one of my freight cars are kits. Most of my pasenger cars are R to R (nearly minus grabs), virtually all my Loco's are R to R except one.

My one and only Loco kit is an old Roundhouse kit that was quite challenging for me and in the end did not yield very satisfying results. I have a few Athearn BB, but these are not really kits in the sense that you have to build the drive line etc. So I am a confirmed purchaser of R to R locootives and really would not consider otherwise.

Freight cars is a whole different story for me, and I think it is in the realm of freight cars that much of the emotion regarding R to R has occured in the past. I love kits, I make kist with my kids and derive a great deal of my modelling pleasure from freight car kits.

First a few obervations:
1. R to R freight cars are here to stay and are in demand.
2. Kits are still available from several manufacturers. Athearn, Accurail, Red Caboose Branchline etc.
3. Kits are much less available now then they were.

Here in lies the problem and the source of much of the emotion. If you are a kit builder it is much harder to buy what you want than it used to be. The selection at the store is dramatically reduced for lower cost simpler kits. For a long time post the Horizon acquisition of Athearn and Roundhouse there were many rumors that kits from these two companies were dead. We now know this is not true, but they are not available in nearly the selection or the qualntity as before. Has anyone seen a freight car kit announcement from P2K since the Walthers acquisition?

So from the kit makers stand point, something we love is seeminly threatened. They may not be dead, but gone are the days when my boys and I could go to the LHS and browse thru dozens, if not hundreds of kits to get our weekend father son projects on the go. It would be a great loss for me if this were to end.

For now the kit hangs on, so all is not lost.

Enjoy the hobby folks in what ever way floats your boat!

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)
Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out[:D]

But isn't it that by definition anything divided by itself is 1? Engineer in me is also coming out.

Sorry lets try again!

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)

Actually, that's the tricky thing. In some fields of higher matheimatics the definition that any number divided by itself equals one is "superior" to the rule that any number divided by zero is undefined. So the correct answer to zero divided by zero equals one. That's one definition used in some higher mathematical fields. But usually it's just considered indeterminate.

So there is no real answer - it depends on what you're doing.

Kinda twists your brain around, doesn't it?

I think I learned this in abstract algebra, or perhaps it was in Partial Differential Equations.

[Anonymous]

No, it doesn't annoy me anymore. It's a hobby, it's supposed to give me enjoyment and a release from the real world. Any hobby you find, RC planes ( don't build a Piper, do a Biplane), Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge, Steam vs Diesel, whatever, everyone will have a opinion on what they see is "Holy Grail" of a hobby. Do what you enjoy, I was in a hobby shop one time and was asked by another customer "why do I model the SOO Line and not another railroad". Life is full of choices, make the one that makes you happy.

Steve

[BRAKIE]