Anybody else getting annoyed........

[simon1966]

I think it should be noted that this concept of kits for freight cars and locos a-la Athearn is somewhat of an American phenomenon.  Growing up in the UK, all the MRR rolling stock that I purchased was R-to-R, I am not sure if it was even possible to get rolling stock in kit form?  In my experience this has been the situation with the vast majority of European model RR manufacturers.

I happen to enjoy kits and scratchbuilding, especially for structures.  I also like to build simple freight car kits with my two sons.  As long as my needs are being met, I could care less what everyone else wants to do with their hobby dollars.

[secondhandmodeler]

I understand digging up an old converstion to add your own two bits.  Why would you address the original poster if they havn't added anything to the conversation for a year and a half?  I was just wondering.

[BDT in Minnesota]

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?

If it doesnt ring true, it probably isnt.  This story seems to me to be "too out there" to be true.

I think you need thicker skin. To get into an arugument over kits is just stupid.

David B

Don't sell it off as far-fetched simply because you've never seen it happen. I have seen it and I've run into narrow minds just like those described. Be thankful they haven't crossed your path with their 'my way is the only way' attitude. I have a neighbor who's exactly the same way. I really pee'd in his Cheerios one day when I spied him bringing home a pre-assembled Amtrak loco. That shut him up, but good!

Absolutely! I seen it myself and there is no call for such uppity comments from folk like that!

Larry, I agree.....I have seen and experienced this type of behavior far more than once... Some butt-heads live in such a small world that picking on someone else is their only methiod of self expression....This behavior has NOTHING to do with a hobby; it is a personality problem...and birds of a feather flock together, and,  misery likes it's own company....thus a flock of three...

You could have just as well have run into these guys in Wal-Mart while you were looking for an oil filter for your car..You would probably get the same type response...

These three guys could be some of the best craftsmen in the state, but their behavoir is not doing THEIR hobby any favors with their lack of good-will.

 

[Martin4]

I don't mind about RTR vs Kits; to each his own! I do prefer to build kits but much of the modern cars exist only as RTR so I bought them anyway. But I would like to see every item issued as RTR be also available as a kit.

Martin

Québec City 

[BRAKIE]

CNJ831,I fully agree there are difference in clubs and modelers in other areas.Tis the way it has always work.Sadly I agree we will see a split in the hobby even though there is no need for such as long as advanced modelers buys RTR locomotives and cars.You see the hypocrisy I was talking about in my statement? Advance /serious modelers looking down at the RTR modelers while buying RTR Atlas,P2K,Genesis and Kato.Another split I see is the so called "serious" modeler/operator breaking off from the good enough/close enough modelers and where will that leave the casuals?? I suspect in their own camp.

I also  feel that RTR,Prebuilt structures,weathered cars and custom built layouts will become the norm.

CNJ831,I don't know what the hobby will be like in 5 or 10 years but,I expect it will be quite the ride getting there.

[selector]

... To which I'll repeat that one should not go by what they see/read here as being representative across the hobby because of this forum's make-up...

CNJ831

I was not able to appreciate the truth of this statement until I was recently invited to participate in a forum where I am very much out of my element, and where, as CNJ831 states, there are clear demarkations in ability and skill over the heavy majority of posters here.   Except for my self-intro back about two months ago, I have remained absolutely still...and silent. 

Lurking is good.

[CNJ831]

CNJ831,I am a long time modeler and have no qualms about buying RTR cars and engines after all Atlas been RTR for years so,its just not the new modeler..Look closer and you will find old timers are buying RTR if they want Atlas,Genesis,P1K,P2K or Athearn.

You see I been around long enough to know RTR isn't any thing new under the sun as many like to think.

Want proof?

RTR dates back to the 50s with factory painted brass engines.Then in the 60s we had tons of RTR cars and locomotives!

http://www.hoseeker.net/]

From the 50s to 2007 RTR has been around in one form or the other.

The only difference is today its widely accepted.

So,Why the hubbub over nothing but,market demand set by all modelers regardless of skill level or age?

Its hypocrisy at work if these "advanced" modelers are buying Atlas,Genesis,Overland,P2K or Athearn locomotives or cars since these are RTR while looking down their long noses at those that only buy RTR...

Honestly, in my circle of modelers I don't find the fellas rushing out to buy the latest RTR locos or anything else RTR. Here and there we may pick up something that goes straight to the layout but in general we continue to purchase what we always did, building mainly kits of one description or another, airbrushing, decaling and weathering them, ourselves. Certainly, I can't speak for your circle. 

I certainly don't need any proof about the early existance of RTR. In fact, it can be traced back further than you suggest, almost to the very beginnings of model railroading...back to the pre-war custom builders (Lobaugh, Stock, et al.). Even Mantua Metal Products offered a few of their pre-war engines RTR...at a price. However, this was a decidedly minority situation. And, yes, occasional painted brass was to be found on some small minority of layouts in the 1950's but, as we both know, rare was the situation when the owner hadn't completely disassembled and reworked them almost totally after purchase, like some unique craftsman kit. Most early brass didn't run very well and was often inaccurate. Those who bought John English, PennLine, Mantua, et al. RTR also generally modified and customized them. Endless books and articles instructing you how to convert them to this or that prototype were around. That's clearly different from today's RTR, that goes from the box to the track untouched.

Selector says things change and RTR is paving the way to the hobby's future. To which I'll repeat that one should not go by what they see/read here as being representative across the hobby because of this forum's make-up. I would, however, suggest that hobbyists keep an eye out for a possible schism in the hobby somewhere down the road, with traditional modelers going one way and those heavily into RTR another. If one looks carefully at the current major magazines they'll already detect such leanings. I do recall it happening in the 1950's, when increasingly sophisticated HO totally divorced itself from Hi-rail and O tin-plate, which once were considered as much a viable part of the hobby as HO. MR and then RMC totally bannished them from their pages for nearly 40 years. And most of you probably aren't aware that there were even two distinct levels HO model railroading back during the 1950's. So just keep in mind that history has a strange way of repeating itself...

CNJ831

[BRAKIE]

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?

If it doesnt ring true, it probably isnt.  This story seems to me to be "too out there" to be true.

I think you need thicker skin. To get into an arugument over kits is just stupid.

David B

Don't sell it off as far-fetched simply because you've never seen it happen. I have seen it and I've run into narrow minds just like those described. Be thankful they haven't crossed your path with their 'my way is the only way' attitude. I have a neighbor who's exactly the same way. I really pee'd in his Cheerios one day when I spied him bringing home a pre-assembled Amtrak loco. That shut him up, but good!

Absolutely! I seen it myself and there is no call for such uppity comments from folk like that!

[vsmith]

I'm a big kitbasher and have built about 1/2 my loco fleet, and advocate for people to give it a whirl, but I have no biased against anyone who would prefer to roll it out of the box onto the layout.

I do alot of bashing because in my scale (large scale) there is still a huge dearth of whats avalable so we still have to build alot, but heck I know kit building let alone kitbashing isnt easy and can intimidate the hell out of people, so if they prefer to pass, fine with me.

I have RTR stuff on my roster also, I find the snobby attitude described in the initial post to be a real detriment to the hobby, but the knuckleheads are in every hobby unfortunatly, and no matter what you do, someone will find fault in it, so you just learn to ignore these various snobs (weathering snobs, scale snobs, era snobs, detail snobs, etc) and focus on your own interests and skills.

PS my reply to these guys would have been " Who da hell are you to tell me what ta buy? Have you seen my roster?, have you seen my layout? so you know how much of my stuff is bashed and how much much is RTRs? Shut the pie-hole and mind yer own biz, buttmunch!"

PSPS I had a similar experience also in my very early HOn30 days, so it does exist out there

[jeffrey-wimberly]

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?

If it doesnt ring true, it probably isnt.  This story seems to me to be "too out there" to be true.

I think you need thicker skin. To get into an arugument over kits is just stupid.

David B

Don't sell it off as far-fetched simply because you've never seen it happen. I have seen it and I've run into narrow minds just like those described. Be thankful they haven't crossed your path with their 'my way is the only way' attitude. I have a neighbor who's exactly the same way. I really pee'd in his Cheerios one day when I spied him bringing home a pre-assembled Amtrak loco. That shut him up, but good!

[BRAKIE]

CNJ831,I am a long time modeler and have no qualms about buying RTR cars and engines after all Atlas been RTR for years so,its just not the new modeler..Look closer and you will find old timers are buying RTR if they want Atlas,Genesis,P1K,P2K or Athearn.

You see I been around long enough to know RTR isn't any thing new under the sun as many like to think.

Want proof?

RTR dates back to the 50s with factory painted brass engines.Then in the 60s we had tons of RTR cars and locomotives!

http://www.hoseeker.net/]

 

From the 50s to 2007 RTR has been around in one form or the other.

The only difference is today its widely accepted.

So,Why the hubbub over nothing but,market demand set by all modelers regardless of skill level or age?

Its hypocrisy at work if these "advanced" modelers are buying Atlas,Genesis,Overland,P2K or Athearn locomotives or cars since these are RTR while looking down their long noses at those that only buy RTR...

 

[selector]

Things change.  Some move with it, some demure, some fall back.  I understand what CNJ831 says...his message is oft repeated.  What we should not also "fail to realize" is that those who are buying RTR now are paving the future of the hobby, not its past.  This trend shows no signs of reversal, and if anything is growing by leaps and bounds.  The demand is there, and it is defining the hobby.

I admire those who have done great self-development and skills-building in earlier times because it obviously set the stage for the hobby.  The previous generations have had their giants, and so will this one.  In time, we'll also be supplanted by a new cachet, style, and technology, and we'll try to convince the newcomers how easy they have it.

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

I have no problem with viewing a builders achievements with respect and admiration, as long as he/she doesn't push their way on me as the ONLY way with all others being wrong. That's where I draw the line between a respectable person and a hypocrite!

[reklein]

Was thinking about this RTR thing and realized that ,when I worked in a hobby shop for about six mo. about a year or so back, I had noticed that the RTR trend just isn't in MRing. R/C planes are almost all Ready to Fly with the new e-technology. Helicopters can be bought for $40 and flown in your living room. The R/C car market is similar too. The good thing is that a lot more people who don't have the time and talent to build are able to enjoy the hobby as well. Building models is still very popular as the Fine Scale Modeler mag can attest to. But the more compliated the model the fewer afficianados one finds. The thing for us to do is recognize the values others place in their collections and the collections of what they've built.

[One Track Mind]

Good post CNJ831...I happen to agree with you for the most part, as a middle-aged timer who has done a little scratchbuilding in the past, a little detailing and a little painting and decaling...

What I've never understood is why the different folks at different levels cannot just peacefully co-exist in the same world.

And that is a two way street...for all the venom I hear spewed toward the RTR crowd, I hear just as much from the RTR bunch toward the "rivet counters and the nitpickers."

I know some of the swipes are just in good fun, but why not let folks enjoy this hobby to the extent that they wish to enjoy it and in whatever manner they choose?

And it's not just old-timers who look down at the RTR people, there are some younger people who are into scratchbuilding and detailing, and they lament the current situation also.

As for the business side of it, I would dearly love to sell more scratchbuilding supplies and detail parts...but they do not sell like they did in the past.

The common thread is folks are working more hours than ever, to get even more money...and they "don't have the time" to put a kit together so they buy RTR. It's like a dog chasing his tail, but that is the refrain.

Maybe I am more tolerant because I most definately see ALL the different levels of this hobby and I welcome them all in my store just the same...and I don't have a problem with an experienced modeler trying to help a newbie get better skills (as we see on this forum) but I still don't understand why there has to be the animosity involved at times.

[CNJ831]

Perhaps to understand the distaste so many oldtimers feel toward what they view as the Johnny-come-lately, RTR crowd, the newer folks should step back and appreciate what the hobby has been all about up until recently.

For more than seventy years model railroading has been based almost totally on craftsmanship, developed skills, and creativity. Participants were proud of what they themselves could accomplish without excessive outside help or through purchasing. Except among those who bought brass, it was never a hobby about collecting and buying, in spite of what a few may claim. Traditionally, if you wanted to gain respect among fellow hobbyists, it was a matter of do-it-yourself. Very few, if any, ever bought their way in in the past.

The longtime modelers see the recent influx of folks who increasingly wish to only purchase RTR locos, cars, structures and even scenic elements, as an aberation and totally unrepresentative of what the hobby has always been about. These RTR newcomers are looked down upon as little more than model train collectors, seemingly unwilling to develop the skills viewed as necessay to go much beyond the track-on-plywood level of modeling on their own.

Is it any wonder, then, that RTRers are looked upon scornfully by oldtimers? This displeasure is further enhanced by the fact that the manufacturers are increasingly aiming their products at the RTR group because they are willing to expend far more cash on and purchase in greater volume,  products over the course of a much smaller time interval than their more creative hobbyist cousins. To the manufacturers it is, naturally, a matter of getting the greatest return on investment in the shortest time, not a matter of who represents the dominant segment of the hobby.

I expect that folks here fail to appreciate, perhaps even realize, this situation exists simply because the vast majority here are indeed newbies, RTRers, and mostly those who have yet to develop much in the way of advanced modeling skills. This is simply what this forum caters to...the entry-level folks. You have to admit that, in spite of the several tens of thousands of rostered members, this forum displays very little evidence of more than a handful of participants modeling with highly advanced level skills and having superior layouts. But believe me, these sorts of folks are still the great majority of the model railroading community.

The question of whether all-encompassing RTR is the hobby's future and savior, or will simply become a distinctly separate spin-off from those whose hobby is modeling in the traditional manner, is still very much in question. So, in the meantime, try to understand and appreciapte both sides of the matter and don't unjustly become hot under the collar too quickly.

CNJ831 

     

 

[One Track Mind]

Amen brothaslide! On my way to work this morning, I heard:

"I am no better, and neither are you...we're all the same, whatever we do...different strokes for different folks..."

Sly & the Family Stone had it right in 1969 and it's still right today.

there is a scratchbuilder who doesn't like the kitbasher who doesn't dig R-T-R...c'mon, everyday people! sing it with me! Get on the Love Train!

no I'm not on anything, just listened to the oldies station all day...

it's taken awhile, but for what it's worth, I've tried to discourage a lot of this kind of talk in my shop over the years. It's just not productive.

 

[brothaslide]

If we want this hobby to grow then we need to be more inclusive.  This type of "my way or the high way" attitude turns people off.

[R. T. POTEET]

Am I the only one with a repertoire of insulting comebacks like "Have you three thought about changing the air in your heads this weekend?"

[emdgp92]

I think there's enough kits and other goodies for us all to enjoy things. I like to build kits myself, but if there's nothing available that I want, I'll get an RTR. Most RTR stuff isn't *really* ready-to-run anyway. It's too clean! With that said, I have no problems about taking my RTR cars apart, dirtying them up a bit, and sometimes swapping out the couplers and/or wheelsets.

Also, I think the BB series by Athearn is great. They're simple, and easy enough for a beginner to assemble...who then might move into more difficult kits. If that's the case, I think we all win. 

 

[snagletooth]

 I didn't even know they still made kits for loco anymore. I thought it was all RTR, prepainted and detailed with DCC and sound. Who makes kits? When I hear kits, I think the old Bowser steamers.
 Any of those three guys build a Bowser? They probably buying undec BB's and think their building a kit.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

Call me square but I don't like sound locos either.

Ok Jeff, you're square. lol

I know, I'm old-school too.

[Ted Marshall]

Call me square but I don't like sound locos either.

Ok Jeff, you're square. lol

[jeffrey-wimberly]

Unfortunately I have come across the a lot of those 'I'll shove my way down your throat and make you like it!' types, some on this forum. I try to keep my distance from such types. I like RTR, I like Bachmann EZ track and the EZ Command. I also like Athearn BB locos and kits and I like using plywood as a base for my layout. I tried foam, had unbelievable static electricity problems with it and abandoned it. Call me square but I don't like sound locos either.

[Ted Marshall]

If I even bothered with them, I might have said, "And I still use rapido couplers!" (sorry if I caused anyone here to lose their lunch, but it is the truth)

Who cares what someone else thinks...it's your time, money, interest that matters to you. And even if you did nothing but kits, there would be someone else to come along and suggest you did it wrong. Enjoy whatever aspect of the hobby interests you most.

  Rob

Y'all know what this is coming to, don't you? Eventually nobody will want to share the hobby because of the criticism they may expect to receive because they build kits or prefer RTR or whatever.

I remember in November last year at a HO & N scale train show sponsored by a local club in Ft. Myers, a beautiful 3' long display of a scratchbuilt double track mainline with left crossover. Every rail, hand cut, bent, laid and spliced. Every spike hand driven. I mean...It was sweet.

I said to my girlfriend...Honey, doesn't this look familiar? I asked her this because the day before I was doing trackwork at home and she was there with me when I finished my third set of crossovers using Atlas Code 100 #6's. The guy, and I mean he was old with a long beard and mustache and thick glasses. I'll always remember those thick glasses. They caused his eyes to look three times larger than they already were, staring at me as I was marveling at his work.

He stood up, looked me square in the eye and asked me, how can this look familiar to you? Do you scratchbuild? Of course by now I'm a little intimidated by this guy despite the fact that he's old, blind and quite frail. "This is scratchbuilt and unless you scratch build your own track, you can't say this looks familiar!"  I was left speechless. Mr., I admire your work, I replied and walked away.

I was so excited to see such a magnificent piece of work. One that certainly must have taken this man months, if not years to make by hand. And mind you, it was only a three foot section, only to have all my questions that I was prepared to ask him vanish from my mind because all I wanted to do was get away from him.

He wasn't there to share, I say. He was there to shove "my way is the right way and your way is the wrong way" down my throat. Needless to say, this turns me off, big time and causes me to be reluctant to share.

[Train Master]

Manly men just fork over real cash to buy what they want."

Sounds good to me.

[fwright]

It's a Friday, and I feel like trolling....

As a kit builder, I would say, "Girlie men buy RTR.  Manly men build kits."

The scratch builders would of course say, "Girlie men buy RTR and build kits.  Manly men build from scratch."

And the RTR folks would say, "Girlie men don't make enough money to buy RTR.  They sit in the LHS complaining about others.  Manly men just fork over real cash to buy what they want."

TGIF

[Cederstrand]

If I even bothered with them, I might have said, "And I still use rapido couplers!" (sorry if I caused anyone here to lose their lunch, but it is the truth)

Who cares what someone else thinks...it's your time, money, interest that matters to you. And even if you did nothing but kits, there would be someone else to come along and suggest you did it wrong. Enjoy whatever aspect of the hobby interests you most.

  Rob

[Train Master]

I have very few kits. just a couple of buildings. Everything else is rtr.

[Gandy Dancer]

'LOCOMOTIVE (and other) KIT'S have alway's been 'minority' items for the hobby.

I've never considered kits or RTR to be a one or the other sort of thing.  Let me think,  If I only ran models made from kits (I'm not considering Athearn BB to be a kit here). ...... I would have a few Roundhouse steam engines, 1 Bowser, a Hobbytown RS-3, and 20-30 freight cars, and 10-15 or so passenger.  Most of those cars are the almost trivial Roundhouse type kits.  So if I go further and only count craftsman type kits I would have 5-10 freight cars, and 5 passenger (which I did not build myself).  Not much of a showing.  I would guess that is less than 3% of my operational fleet.  If I counted the non-operational fleet it is probably much higher percentage of kits - but hey, that is why they are non-operational.  I don't have time to assemble them.  Don't even have time to add weight and put Kadee's on the RTRs in the non-operational fleet.

to dig up this thread after a year and a half of dormancy?  Anybody else notice?

OOps, no I didn't notice.  I sometimes like old threads.