Anybody else getting annoyed........

[jwar]

4884bigboy...Let it go..they are only big frogs in a very small pond.

I can hear the fire trucks comming..as I will get flamed over this.. and dont really care as this is only a hobby to me....BUT I see that every day on this forum, and wonder why some think everyone should follow the openionated.

Model railroading is no different then any other hobby, some are more advanced then others mainly due to monatary, skills and an internal desire to ones thing.

I could care less if one is into RTR, brass or whatever. This is a great hobby and I hope one shares and struts thier stuff...however some people here on this forum, in my personal openion, seem like they are a big frog in a small pond, by being snobs to others, as they get a tad rude buy showing their openions with very little respect to the other person.

I do respect ones openions untill they get a bit overboard by trying to force his views on me. As far as the modelers you mentioned, take them with a grain of salt and move on, or perhaps ask them about the car they drive, did they build it, or bought it RTR,....then just kindly LOL.

I was having a problem with some aspect of this hobby and one of the guys here got rather rude, as as I reread his statement to me and realiized he did not read my question at all, his anser was out in left field. This rather ticked me off, but then seen later he did this to others.


Take care...John

[grayfox1119]

Jonathan, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with RTR...end of story!! You will always find those people about who like to tell the rest of us what to do and how to do it WITHOUT being asked. I have bought BOTH types. Yes, RTR is more expensive, but that is an INDIVIDUAL choice, and no one else needs to get the hair up on their backs like an olde Tom cat. You could have just told these folks.." I don't recall asking for your opinion", but that would not be very nice at all. Or, you could just smile at them and say, " I'm loaded, price is no object, but I am so busy making all this money that I don't really have the time right now in my life to build these kits", I want to run them right away and get instant enjoyment. LOL

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by KenLarsen

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton
Actually, that's the tricky thing. In some fields of higher matheimatics the definition that any number divided by itself equals one is "superior" to the rule that any number divided by zero is undefined. So the correct answer to zero divided by zero equals one. That's one definition used in some higher mathematical fields. But usually it's just considered indeterminate.

So there is no real answer - it depends on what you're doing.

As a software writer, one thing I know for sure is that ANY quotient logic that attempts to perform a division by zero, will cause the application to crash![:D]

If true, then some would say Windows is filled with divide by zero functions! [:D][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

And tommorow "Nit Pickers" will still be picking "Nits". We either learn from their "wisdom" or are wise enough to shrugg them off. Each of us enjoys this "enterprise" in our own way. Much can be learned on the road less traveled, and listening to those who have traveled roads we ourselves have no seen or been on, yet. Perhaps some of us can be more tolerant of the ways others have gone, and appreciate that they are not walking in our shoes which are taking us where we are going, including down that fork less travelled, we may decide to take.
Will

[trainfreek92]

100% RTR for me[:D]

[brothaslide]

Sorry to hear about this. We need to find ways to make people feel included to help the hobby grow. When we alienate each other, it just hurts the growth of the hobby.

[Duce]

What most people dont think about is that we are in a hobby that has 1. many different levels of skill, and 2. Very Broad.
I have talked with people who enjoy buliding the kits and can really careless about anything else and if you take someone who is into scenery and show them his layout they would freakout. We each have our own reasons why we enjoy the hobby. I myself only have RTR at this point. However Im more into getting my layout up and running then to have a kit done at this point. I may in the future do some kits.

Its up to you in what you like. WHAT EVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK

[Tracklayer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tracklayer

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?[V][?]

I'm a smart, gifted and talented individual, and can build, assemble or repair just about anything you put in front of me - or at least I'll try. However, I don't put other people down because they can't. It took many years of trial and error for me to learn what I know and develop my skills. We're not all put together exactly alike. I also buy RTR any time I can.

Tracklayer

I bet when asked you also help those that can't build, assemble or repair things. I"m sure they learn a bunch too. [:)]

With the exception of my buddy Rob that I wrote about recently in my topic I'VE HAD ENOUGH!... Oh well. He'll either have to learn, or he'll have to find himself another hobby that doesn't require any skills.

Tracklayer

[BRAKIE]

Jeff,Don't characterize all old modelers as missing the "old" way..Many of us don't and truly enjoy todays RTR models.Heck,I enjoy the thought of prebuilt structures!!!

You just hit the old spike on the head in many ways other then kit vs RTR.[:D]

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton
Actually, that's the tricky thing. In some fields of higher matheimatics the definition that any number divided by itself equals one is "superior" to the rule that any number divided by zero is undefined. So the correct answer to zero divided by zero equals one. That's one definition used in some higher mathematical fields. But usually it's just considered indeterminate.

So there is no real answer - it depends on what you're doing.

Kinda twists your brain around, doesn't it?

I think I learned this in abstract algebra, or perhaps it was in Partial Differential Equations.

If it's thought of in a more practical way, this is something we All deal with. Wheather realizing it or not, we are all dealing with ohms law which states that current is voltage divided by resistance. Zero resistance is not something we deal with but in relative terms, think of what happens when a wire is laid across powered rails. The current draw shoots off towards infinity until it reaches the limit of the power supply. While the wire resistance may not be exactly Zero it is close enough to it in reference to the intended load of the power supply that one of 3 things will happen.. A, the smoke will come out of one part or another of the power supply, B, The fuse or circuit breaker will blow, or C, the district or entire system will shut down to protect itself (DCC) from overload.

To the topic of this thread.. Vent if you like, buy RTR if you like, build kits if you like, scratch build if you like, it's all about whatever You enjoy.. Anybody that thinks Brass is RTR has obviously never painted one, repowered one, or installed a decoder in one. Yes, you can take them out of the box, set them on the rails, apply power and they'll scoot down the track. However, if you want a finished model, RTR, NOT.

The fogies in the hobby shop are doing the same thing that has gone on for decades.. Lamenting (sp?) the way it Use to be. Pissed off that through all the mergers, acquisitions, and just plain dying off of the old kit manufacturers, they can't get what they think they want anymore. When in reality, most wouldn't let loose of the cash if it (whatever It is) Were still available. They'd find something about It to bash instead.

What I find disappointing at times is the current trend of Limited runs.. Mostly because by the time I've saved the ca***o get what I want, it's no longer available and I refuse to pay a collector price for something.

release valve closed, steam vented off..

Jeff

[David_Telesha]

I may be a little late.

I BUY ANYTHING THAT I SEE THAT I WANT [and can afford]!!!

I don't give a dang if its kit or ready to roll - if I'll be happy with it I'll buy it. I can build a kit and I can modify an RTR - if its a NH prototype and it meets my standard, its mine.

I have Proto 1000 engines, Athearn RTR RS-3's*, F&C Craftsman kits, and Branchline Blueprint kits all on my layout.

*= I'm still waiting for them to come in stock - but I do have them on order.

[tangerine-jack]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

I have to say this is one encounter you would never have in large scale...

I can only say that in my scale G, I only wish we HAD more kits of locomotives! 95% of everything motive related is RTR which leaves alot up to our kitbashing skills. what kits there are, are pricey and often poor running. Selection is still very limited. I've had better luck scratchbuilding and bashing to get what I want than waiting for kits that might not ever get produced. So as it is RTR is just a given for most modelers.

As for RTR in HO, I personally feel you should do what ever helps YOU to enjoy the hobby, these guys were being just plain rude!

Vic is right on the money with that, but he forgot to add that nobody can give a definative answer on just what the $#%@ing "scale" G scale actually is!!!! You can buy a "G" scale loco from one manufacturer and "G" scale cars from another, and one may be 1:22.5 and the other 1:32. Gives one a headache just thinking about it!

So all you HO scalers (me included!) quit whining about your astonishingly huge selection of cars, locos and accesories, KIT and RTR, get over your holier than thou attitudes if you think you found a "golden key" to model railroading. Come outside into the real world of model railroading GARDEN SCALE, and see for yourself how nice and un judgemental people can be in this hobby.

OK, I'm done now.

[vsmith]

I have to say this is one encounter you would never have in large scale...

I can only say that in my scale G, I only wish we HAD more kits of locomotives! 95% of everything motive related is RTR which leaves alot up to our kitbashing skills. what kits there are, are pricey and often poor running. Selection is still very limited. I've had better luck scratchbuilding and bashing to get what I want than waiting for kits that might not ever get produced. So as it is RTR is just a given for most modelers.

As for RTR in HO, I personally feel you should do what ever helps YOU to enjoy the hobby, these guys were being just plain rude!

[TrainFreak409]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Who is more a "model railroader" - the guy that builds only Bowser type locomotive kits and uses RTR track, shake the box rolling stock and structures, or the guy who uses RTR locomotives and rolling stock but handlays every inch of track, scratchbuilds every building and concentrates on realistic operations?

Along the same lines - it seems that another popular pasttime is to call anything less expensive than what one runs "junk" and anything more expensive than what one runs as "things for those that have more money than brains."

As far as I am concerned, and this is just my opinion of course, if a person is running something that looks like a train and is smaller than 1:1 scale, and is having fun doing it - that person is a model railroader.

[#ditto]

I like your logic there. And that's a great question. Who is more a model builders? I can't answer it. It's going around and around in my head, but I just can't get to an impass.

This hobby is for fun, and you should enjoy at you see fit. Ready-to-Run, or build-it-yourself, it's all fun and games in the end.[:D]

[Anonymous]

Wow, I had no idea this topic would grow so fast.

First off, thank you to those who posted the kind words. I was letting off steam and I guess I am whining about it, but it still ticks me off.

As most people who replied said, I too purchase my locomotives RTR. Rolling stock mostly kits, but an RTR piece is nice now and then. I would NEVER buy an RTR structure or one of those woodland scenics modules. That's where the fun REALLY stops. Locomotive kits are one thing, but it ain't that hard to build a structure, and you can be proud of it when it's complete, too. The same can be said for locomotive kits I suppose. I respect the people who prefer kits, but it'd be nice if they'd lay off a tad. I guess I really should just ignore people like the 3 I was talking to the other day.

BTW, does anyone even make an HO SD60 kit?????

[CP5415]

I don't get annoyed over it. I just shake my head!

What gets me annoyed are people putting down Athearn.
I've said it once, I'm gonna say it again " You can't go wrong with Athearn!'
These are words spoken to me when I joined the Sarnia Model Railroad Club in 1996 by someone who was running brass, Altas & Kato.

I still don't see the point in putting down Athearn but then again, I have been known to put down Kato & Atlas in the past.

Gordon
Gordon

[timthechef]

I'm a kit builder too. I"m worried that kits are dissapearing from the market. I have to go to e-bay to find a simple steam engine kit. I've been trying to get chimneys for my railroad station project and can't find any at my local hobby stores. I understand that kits and scratch building is not for everybody, I'm just worried that the products in the hobby that I love are dissapearing.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton
Actually, that's the tricky thing. In some fields of higher matheimatics the definition that any number divided by itself equals one is "superior" to the rule that any number divided by zero is undefined. So the correct answer to zero divided by zero equals one. That's one definition used in some higher mathematical fields. But usually it's just considered indeterminate.

So there is no real answer - it depends on what you're doing.

As a software writer, one thing I know for sure is that ANY quotient logic that attempts to perform a division by zero, will cause the application to crash![:D]

[simon1966]

Well this thread took off quickly. Spend a day away from the PC and look what happens.

Each to there own. If you want R to R get them, if not don't. Simple really? But why the emotion?

First of all I think it is worth differentiating between Loco's and Rolling Stock. All but one of my freight cars are kits. Most of my pasenger cars are R to R (nearly minus grabs), virtually all my Loco's are R to R except one.

My one and only Loco kit is an old Roundhouse kit that was quite challenging for me and in the end did not yield very satisfying results. I have a few Athearn BB, but these are not really kits in the sense that you have to build the drive line etc. So I am a confirmed purchaser of R to R locootives and really would not consider otherwise.

Freight cars is a whole different story for me, and I think it is in the realm of freight cars that much of the emotion regarding R to R has occured in the past. I love kits, I make kist with my kids and derive a great deal of my modelling pleasure from freight car kits.

First a few obervations:
1. R to R freight cars are here to stay and are in demand.
2. Kits are still available from several manufacturers. Athearn, Accurail, Red Caboose Branchline etc.
3. Kits are much less available now then they were.

Here in lies the problem and the source of much of the emotion. If you are a kit builder it is much harder to buy what you want than it used to be. The selection at the store is dramatically reduced for lower cost simpler kits. For a long time post the Horizon acquisition of Athearn and Roundhouse there were many rumors that kits from these two companies were dead. We now know this is not true, but they are not available in nearly the selection or the qualntity as before. Has anyone seen a freight car kit announcement from P2K since the Walthers acquisition?

So from the kit makers stand point, something we love is seeminly threatened. They may not be dead, but gone are the days when my boys and I could go to the LHS and browse thru dozens, if not hundreds of kits to get our weekend father son projects on the go. It would be a great loss for me if this were to end.

For now the kit hangs on, so all is not lost.

Enjoy the hobby folks in what ever way floats your boat!

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)
Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out[:D]

But isn't it that by definition anything divided by itself is 1? Engineer in me is also coming out.

Sorry lets try again!

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)

Actually, that's the tricky thing. In some fields of higher matheimatics the definition that any number divided by itself equals one is "superior" to the rule that any number divided by zero is undefined. So the correct answer to zero divided by zero equals one. That's one definition used in some higher mathematical fields. But usually it's just considered indeterminate.

So there is no real answer - it depends on what you're doing.

Kinda twists your brain around, doesn't it?

I think I learned this in abstract algebra, or perhaps it was in Partial Differential Equations.

[Anonymous]

No, it doesn't annoy me anymore. It's a hobby, it's supposed to give me enjoyment and a release from the real world. Any hobby you find, RC planes ( don't build a Piper, do a Biplane), Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge, Steam vs Diesel, whatever, everyone will have a opinion on what they see is "Holy Grail" of a hobby. Do what you enjoy, I was in a hobby shop one time and was asked by another customer "why do I model the SOO Line and not another railroad". Life is full of choices, make the one that makes you happy.

Steve

[BRAKIE]

[Eriediamond]

Yep, I too sometimes get a little annoyed. I do wi***here were more kits though, or semikits if you will. Let me ask this question, what is a model railroad?? Is a kit or scratch built detailed UP Challenger in a sealed case setting on a desk or fireplace mantle a model railroad? No, it's just a model locomotive. A model railroad consists of track, locos, cars, scenery, lighting, and so on. It's how we utilize all these things to make a model railroad. If it's so important to kit build a locomotive to qualify it for this, then why not say that ready to use sectional or even flex-track does not qualify. It's rediculous, Ken

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tracklayer

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?[V][?]

I'm a smart, gifted and talented individual, and can build, assemble or repair just about anything you put in front of me - or at least I'll try. However, I don't put other people down because they can't. It took many years of trial and error for me to learn what I know and develop my skills. We're not all put together exactly alike. I also buy RTR any time I can.

Tracklayer

I bet when asked you also help those that can't build, assemble or repair things. I"m sure they learn a bunch too. [:)]

[Tracklayer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?[V][?]

I'm a smart, gifted and talented individual, and can build, assemble or repair just about anything you put in front of me - or at least I'll try. However, I don't put other people down because they can't. It took many years of trial and error for me to learn what I know and develop my skills. We're not all put together exactly alike. I also buy RTR any time I can.

Tracklayer

[Berk-fan284]

I prefer kits but sometimes RTR is the only way to go for specific locos or rolling stock and repainting and redecaling aren't very viable options either (hard to get and expensive decals,intricate paint schemes). Yes I have heard the do it yourself and learn the skills mantra of some of the local fanatics also.

[ngartshore350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

ngartshore,

Check it out! http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/53636.html

Doing a little research seems to suggest that dividing by zero is "inderterment" instead of "infinity." Perhaps Brunton can fill us in on what he is thinking about.

Mmmm, strange beast indead looking at your link! As suggested it seems to vary depending on the application!

I will wait for the wisdom of Brunton as you do!

[davekelly]

ngartshore,

Check it out! http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/53636.html

Doing a little research seems to suggest that dividing by zero is "inderterment" instead of "infinity." Perhaps Brunton can fill us in on what he is thinking about.

[ngartshore350]

Back to the real topic, I find no problem with RTR, the Athearn locomotives are really well detailed now! I am going flat out to wire my layout, so to get a well detailed RTR loco is fine by me, I don't have time to sit down and detail a locomotive from a kit.

The cost is another issure, I can pick up a RTR far cheaper than a Kit and adding all the detail. I know there is a great deal of satifaction in detailing a loco but at the moment I am trying to get a layout going and then I will be doing scenery. When I am finished I might go back to a kit!

[ngartshore350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)
Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out[:D]

But isn't it that by definition anything divided by itself is 1? Engineer in me is also coming out.

Sorry lets try again!

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)