Doughless Same here. I can install outlets and light switches, but I call a plumber for plumbing.
Same here. I can install outlets and light switches, but I call a plumber for plumbing.
"want it done right - do it yourself" at least in my case always proved true. i suppose such thing as responsible professionals does happen in nanture, but so far i have quite a bad luck (i only know of HVAC guy)
we purchased our abandoned for 4 years home from bank. Bank hired plumber to fix the leaks from burst frozen pipes. what can i say, it takes baker to properly bake bread, it takes computer software developer to properly instal plumbing. i have no good words for that "professional", as i ended up removing at least 25% of drywalls to get to the supossedly fixed leaks. it was madening task, i was exploring posibilities to sue that dude for damages, but couldn't locate.
my point - soldering pipes is not a rocket science. practice for a bit and you will have an edge on any plumber if only for one reason - unlike hired plumber you actually CARE to do a good job.
Regards
Anton.
PRR8259 Sheldon-- I read the original post but not the several posts in between... For the record, I was one of the very last civil engineers in Pennsylvania to come out of college and learn to do plans the traditional way: pencil survey data reduction ie plotting (often by high school interns), then checked and traced in ink, and yes, my nickname was "Leroy" because I did ok with the Leroy pen set. Also: I was also one of the very first to have Inroads design software thrown at me with the "here it is, learn it, use it" statement. So I fill a rather unique niche in the working world: I have a lot of experience with using the cadd software to design things, and most other people my age or even slightly older are managers who are only capable of doing redline markups. I can get into the cadd files and do all kinds of things they don't always appreciate or understand. They are managers, I'm a project engineer "beneath" them...now my firm is outsourcing to india...
Sheldon--
I read the original post but not the several posts in between...
For the record, I was one of the very last civil engineers in Pennsylvania to come out of college and learn to do plans the traditional way: pencil survey data reduction ie plotting (often by high school interns), then checked and traced in ink, and yes, my nickname was "Leroy" because I did ok with the Leroy pen set.
Also: I was also one of the very first to have Inroads design software thrown at me with the "here it is, learn it, use it" statement.
So I fill a rather unique niche in the working world: I have a lot of experience with using the cadd software to design things, and most other people my age or even slightly older are managers who are only capable of doing redline markups. I can get into the cadd files and do all kinds of things they don't always appreciate or understand. They are managers, I'm a project engineer "beneath" them...now my firm is outsourcing to india...
John,
Despite any talents at a desk or a drawing table, by the time I was 23, I was a project manger for a medium sized commercial/industrial electrical contractor.
Then my father offered me a chance to be in business for myself - that spoiled me - I sold MATCO TOOLS for seven years. I did not get rich, but I learned a whole lot.....
So most of my life I have been self employed. And when I have worked for others, it has always been relatively small companies, and I seldom stayed more than about 3 years.
My resume has more different job descriptions in 40 some years than any 5 people you could find.
One time I went on a job interview at a car dealership to be the shop foreman/service dispatcher - I had never done that job, but I sold them on the idea that I could do it, and I got the job, and did very well.
Construction - plumbing, refrigeration, electrical, carpentry - in the field and in the office, car business, retail, mobile tool business, home inspector, residential designer, historic restoration consultant, property manager - it's a long list.
My secret - I was never afraid to quit a job and try something else.
Now, people get on a list to have me and my small team work on their houses.....
I don't think they can out source the restoration of this to India:
And I have fun almost every day at work.
This past week I have been restoring the leaded glass side lites and transom on an 1863 mansion.
Sheldon
So I fill a rather unique niche in the working world: I have a lot of experience with using the cadd software to design things, and most other people my age or even slightly older are managers who are only capable of doing redline markups. I can get into the cadd files and do all kinds of things they don't always appreciate or understand the value of.
Not sure that I have the .pdf of my track plan...I changed jobs too many times since we built it. I'll look...
Of course I'll take a look at Sheldon's plan when I have the chance to do so.
Best Regards--
John
P.S. Sheldon is absolutely correct: the design software has inherent setup time involved for any project. It is almost not worth it at all for small projects. We can draw cross sections at 25' intervals and then import from the cross sections to a design surface for those little jobs. It is much faster than using the high fallutin' Inroads 3D modeling process. I work with engineers who don't want to do it the "old school" way like that, anymore, but it saves time and money.
If you are HDR (the big time engineering firm that actually did the new track alignments in Abo Canyon, New Mexico, if I recall correctly) and you are designing a project like that: big challenges to clear existing track alignment and keep it in service during construction, many alignment alternatives, very steep terrain, significant environmental and right-of-way concerns (neighboring landowners) that IS when the high fallutin' 3D modeling software is absolutely essential. It saves monumental amounts of time.
In the model railroad world, most of my friends drew rough sketches on paper, and then just started building and test fitting one step at a time. I'm not sure the model railroad design software is that essential for the average layout.
7j43k ATLANTIC CENTRAL And the track plan is being drawn the old fashioned way, graphite on mylar..... First, pull a piece of burnt stick from the campfire. Then go chop down a mylar tree. Nope. Not me. Not anymore. Electrons! Photons! Yeah!!!!! Though I do confess that ink on vellum is impressive as all git-out. I had a fantasy of doing an ink tracing over a GN R-2 erection drawing. Even got the drawing. Smart-assedness aside, I AM looking forward to the layout drawing. Your wants and needs for layouts are very close to mine, and I want to see how you develop them. Ed
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And the track plan is being drawn the old fashioned way, graphite on mylar.....
And the track plan is being drawn the old fashioned way, graphite on mylar.....
First, pull a piece of burnt stick from the campfire. Then go chop down a mylar tree.
Nope. Not me. Not anymore. Electrons! Photons! Yeah!!!!!
Though I do confess that ink on vellum is impressive as all git-out. I had a fantasy of doing an ink tracing over a GN R-2 erection drawing. Even got the drawing.
Smart-assedness aside, I AM looking forward to the layout drawing. Your wants and needs for layouts are very close to mine, and I want to see how you develop them.
Ed
Ed,
Back in the day, as a draftsman in an engineering office, I did lots of ink on linen. We did work for the WSSC (Washington Suburban Sanitary Commission) and they required it for record copies of all their drawings.
We also inked most of our lettering with the Leroy system......
CADD is fine, I learned it years ago, but never wanted to spend the money for a full scale setup here in the home office.
And in my work as a residential dsigner, it has few advantages and the big disadvantage of actually taking longer for simple projects.
The bigger and more complex the project, the more effective CADD is at saving time, no question. But I can draw a typical residential floor plan before most CADD operators can plot the major lines.....
And I have no patience for learning propriatary sofeware like the various track planning offerings......by the time I would learn that, I could draw four track plans by hand.....
More soon,
PRR8259 My philosophy of design is/was "less is more". I had limited R/W and love the wide open spaces. Went for along shelf layout, single track, folded dogbone, on insulation foam with lightweight plaster scenery. Part of the layout on the narrow shelf has the appearance of a double track railroad, but is not. I have next to no buildings at all (one barn, actually) and the rest is open country scenery, with a couple passing sidings and one spur siding. Two boys and three cats later, the years have been a little hard on scenery. The layout needs a refresh and re-scenic...but we will move relatively soon, so I'm waiting...and just running trains. It's a layout designed for trains to keep moving. Part of it definitely captures rural desert, very sparse, inhospitable terrain. Is it Mojave desert? or Northern Nevada? idk. In hindsight, had I more money and ambition, I would have chosen Abo Canyon, New Mexico, especially now with the double track railroad, on two independent alignments, with multiple major bridge structures, etc. but then how would I have fit it in? Along with Cajon Pass and Tehachapi, each a most amazing piece of railroad (no disrespect to fans of Horseshoe Curve or Marias Pass). Buildings? We don't need no stinking buildings...
My philosophy of design is/was "less is more". I had limited R/W and love the wide open spaces. Went for along shelf layout, single track, folded dogbone, on insulation foam with lightweight plaster scenery. Part of the layout on the narrow shelf has the appearance of a double track railroad, but is not.
I have next to no buildings at all (one barn, actually) and the rest is open country scenery, with a couple passing sidings and one spur siding.
Two boys and three cats later, the years have been a little hard on scenery. The layout needs a refresh and re-scenic...but we will move relatively soon, so I'm waiting...and just running trains. It's a layout designed for trains to keep moving.
Part of it definitely captures rural desert, very sparse, inhospitable terrain. Is it Mojave desert? or Northern Nevada? idk.
In hindsight, had I more money and ambition, I would have chosen Abo Canyon, New Mexico, especially now with the double track railroad, on two independent alignments, with multiple major bridge structures, etc. but then how would I have fit it in? Along with Cajon Pass and Tehachapi, each a most amazing piece of railroad (no disrespect to fans of Horseshoe Curve or Marias Pass).
Buildings? We don't need no stinking buildings...
John, you will see when I publish the track plan how my layout will be large but simple.
It will however involve enough track to support lots of operation, and stage lots of trains.
And, to each their own, western scenery does nothing for me. I've been out west just a few times, it was interesting, but I find the lush green east must more beautiful.
So that's what I model.
I'm not sure from your comments if you read the earlier part of this thread or not?
I like action and long trains, I like operation and display running, I like switching and passenger trains.
The goal of the layout is to do all of that.......
SeeYou190 richhotrain Never mastered the pipe soldering so I stay away from plumbing. . I don't solder! All my plumbing is plastic. . If I need to repair a pipe that must be metal for code... I call a plumber. A plumber will also relocate the closet flange. Too much for me. . -Kevin .
richhotrain Never mastered the pipe soldering so I stay away from plumbing.
.
I don't solder! All my plumbing is plastic.
If I need to repair a pipe that must be metal for code... I call a plumber. A plumber will also relocate the closet flange. Too much for me.
-Kevin
Now anyone can even do copper plumbing - can any of you say "Sharkbite!"
https://www.supplyhouse.com/SharkBite-Fittings-595000?gclid=Cj0KCQjwjvXeBRDDARIsAC38TP71N-QsYmigWOQS7LcpPPbs3mOAMC6M0BBoLDYir_fRXM_hePG1GvAaApikEALw_wcB
But seriously, I can solder copper pipe, rather well actually.
Electrical work, I've wired factories, shopping centers, sky scrapers and pumping stations - houses are pretty easy.
But a man should know his limits.......
It's been a crazy week here, we just got a new grand daughter Monday.
But I will havesome more discussion topics here soon. And when the track plan is far enough along, I will get it scanned and post it.
Sorry no web site of my own, and no time/interest in doing so. And the track plan is being drawn the old fashioned way, graphite on mylar.....
Great news, Sheldon!
I look forward to progress photos!!
When I designed and built my house I was lucky that my FIL and BIL are Master Electricians. They did the hard stuff at the panel and meter, I hooked up outlets, lights and switches. Everything besides that, I did myself. Plumbed the whole house. When my well driller came to hook up the house, I ran around checking connections! LOL! No leaks.
As Sheldon has said, sometimes being a contractor comes in handy!
Post a track plan when you can!!
Terry
Terry in NW Wisconsin
Queenbogey715 is my Youtube channel
richhotrainNever mastered the pipe soldering so I stay away from plumbing.
Living the dream.
Gotta install lighting, build 52 inch high table shelving to replace existing storage in the room where staging will be, and get my workbench set up in the train room.
Then I'll order homasote roadbed from Cascade Rail Supply and start the layout benchwork.
I've got unused vacation days between now and New Years, so hopefully I'll start laying track by January.
- Douglas
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL I guess my advantage is that I do my own windows and plumbing......and electric, etc.. I do my own flooring, painting, framing, and of course... demolition.. I have done lots of minor plumbing, and I installed my own sprinkler system. .I do not touch wiring. I do not have the knowledge or experience for window replacement.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I guess my advantage is that I do my own windows and plumbing......and electric, etc..
I do my own flooring, painting, framing, and of course... demolition..
I have done lots of minor plumbing, and I installed my own sprinkler system.
.I do not touch wiring. I do not have the knowledge or experience for window replacement.
Now, electrical work is a whole nother thing. I am an amateur unlicensed electrician.
Rich
Alton Junction
ATLANTIC CENTRALI guess my advantage is that I do my own windows and plumbing......and electric, etc.
I do my own flooring, painting, framing, and of course... demolition.
I do not touch wiring. I do not have the knowledge or experience for window replacement.
I need a closet flange relocated in the bathroom. Once that is done and the windows are installed, I am "clean and green" to move forward at good speed again.
Hopefully my first spike will go down in January 2020.
Kevin,
Thanks for the interest. I have much more to explore as this layout moves forward, looking forward to everyone's thoughts.
I guess my advantage is that I do my own windows and plumbing......and electric, etc.
You are ahead of me.
My house renovation is at a stand still until I get some time at home to meet with window contractors and plumbers.
Keep the updates coming.
So we are now moved into the new house. Things are pretty busy here, but I am working on my track plan details when time allows.
I will explore additional layout design related topics as time allows.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Now, would you like to know why most houses here have basements and VERY few are built on concrete slabs? It's simple. Foundations need to go below the frost line to prevent winter ground freezing from moving the building and cracking the foundation. The 100 year freeze depth here is 30", so foundations must be 36" below grade. Even a poured slab foundation must have a perimeter curtain wall that goes 36" below grade. Up here in Chicago, the frost line is 42 inches. Years ago, I had a room addition built onto the back of the house. The contractor built it on a "trench footing". Two problems. The foundation for the addition was not built on virgin soil and the footing did not go down 42 inches. In fact, the trench was only about 32 inches deep. The room addition began to pull away from the house to the extent that we had to tear it down. To make matters worse, the exterior of the room addition was brick. A structural engineer told me that a brick weighs 42 times more than an similarly sized piece of aluminum siding. That added weight put even more stress on the trench footing. We have long since the sold the home after restoring it to its original footprint. Rich Both big mistakes on the part of that contractor. Where was the inspector? Everybody knows footers need to be on virgin soil and/or tested for compaction for the soil type. Yes, masonry is heavy, very heavy..... Sheldon
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Now, would you like to know why most houses here have basements and VERY few are built on concrete slabs? It's simple. Foundations need to go below the frost line to prevent winter ground freezing from moving the building and cracking the foundation. The 100 year freeze depth here is 30", so foundations must be 36" below grade. Even a poured slab foundation must have a perimeter curtain wall that goes 36" below grade. Up here in Chicago, the frost line is 42 inches. Years ago, I had a room addition built onto the back of the house. The contractor built it on a "trench footing". Two problems. The foundation for the addition was not built on virgin soil and the footing did not go down 42 inches. In fact, the trench was only about 32 inches deep. The room addition began to pull away from the house to the extent that we had to tear it down. To make matters worse, the exterior of the room addition was brick. A structural engineer told me that a brick weighs 42 times more than an similarly sized piece of aluminum siding. That added weight put even more stress on the trench footing. We have long since the sold the home after restoring it to its original footprint. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Now, would you like to know why most houses here have basements and VERY few are built on concrete slabs? It's simple. Foundations need to go below the frost line to prevent winter ground freezing from moving the building and cracking the foundation. The 100 year freeze depth here is 30", so foundations must be 36" below grade. Even a poured slab foundation must have a perimeter curtain wall that goes 36" below grade.
Now, would you like to know why most houses here have basements and VERY few are built on concrete slabs?
It's simple. Foundations need to go below the frost line to prevent winter ground freezing from moving the building and cracking the foundation. The 100 year freeze depth here is 30", so foundations must be 36" below grade.
Even a poured slab foundation must have a perimeter curtain wall that goes 36" below grade.
Up here in Chicago, the frost line is 42 inches. Years ago, I had a room addition built onto the back of the house. The contractor built it on a "trench footing". Two problems. The foundation for the addition was not built on virgin soil and the footing did not go down 42 inches. In fact, the trench was only about 32 inches deep. The room addition began to pull away from the house to the extent that we had to tear it down. To make matters worse, the exterior of the room addition was brick. A structural engineer told me that a brick weighs 42 times more than an similarly sized piece of aluminum siding. That added weight put even more stress on the trench footing. We have long since the sold the home after restoring it to its original footprint.
Both big mistakes on the part of that contractor. Where was the inspector?
Everybody knows footers need to be on virgin soil and/or tested for compaction for the soil type. Yes, masonry is heavy, very heavy.....
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Every house should be built on one. They make the living space warmer in winter, drier year round, they are space for water heaters, HVAC systems, and other mechanical/electrial equipment freeing up space on the "living" floors. Wood framed floors are nicer to walk on, they are warm and soft, not cold and hard like stone. Basements are very low in "cost per square foot" to construct, and they make the house easier to "service" down the road. Not all houses can be safely built on foundations. The high water level and the proximity to sea level make basements a rarity in Florida. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Every house should be built on one. They make the living space warmer in winter, drier year round, they are space for water heaters, HVAC systems, and other mechanical/electrial equipment freeing up space on the "living" floors. Wood framed floors are nicer to walk on, they are warm and soft, not cold and hard like stone. Basements are very low in "cost per square foot" to construct, and they make the house easier to "service" down the road.
Every house should be built on one. They make the living space warmer in winter, drier year round, they are space for water heaters, HVAC systems, and other mechanical/electrial equipment freeing up space on the "living" floors.
Wood framed floors are nicer to walk on, they are warm and soft, not cold and hard like stone.
Basements are very low in "cost per square foot" to construct, and they make the house easier to "service" down the road.
Not all houses can be safely built on foundations. The high water level and the proximity to sea level make basements a rarity in Florida.
Very true, and they don't have frost issues with frozen ground.
But back in the day (late 19th Century), in places like Florida, many houses were built "up out of the ground" on shallow basements for all the benifits they provide, rather than on concrete slabs floating on the sand........
And I will confess a strong bias against living in that climate/environment to begin with......
maxman Doughless Yep, the joists were installed with the crown side down in that part of the room, about 7 of them. When the house was built 25 years ago, the saw guy did his job, marked the crown with an arrow, but the framers installed the joists with the arrows pointed down, LOL. Doesn't the arrow mean "this side down"?
Doughless Yep, the joists were installed with the crown side down in that part of the room, about 7 of them. When the house was built 25 years ago, the saw guy did his job, marked the crown with an arrow, but the framers installed the joists with the arrows pointed down, LOL.
Doesn't the arrow mean "this side down"?
I hope this is sarcasm......
SeeYou190 Doughless Yep, the joists were installed with the crown side down in that part of the room, about 7 of them. When the house was built 25 years ago, the saw guy did his job, marked the crown with an arrow, but the framers installed the joists with the arrows pointed down, LOL. About 10 linear feet with a one and half inch sag at the valley. We spent the $2,500 to have new joists sistered to them. . Wow, suddenly having a single floor house with no basement built on a concrete slab is seeming likle a great thing! . -Kevin .
Doughless Yep, the joists were installed with the crown side down in that part of the room, about 7 of them. When the house was built 25 years ago, the saw guy did his job, marked the crown with an arrow, but the framers installed the joists with the arrows pointed down, LOL. About 10 linear feet with a one and half inch sag at the valley. We spent the $2,500 to have new joists sistered to them.
Wow, suddenly having a single floor house with no basement built on a concrete slab is seeming likle a great thing!
And living on a concrete slab is fine in Florida, but you would not want to live on one here.
In this climate they make a house cold and damp, no matter all the attempts at insulation and moisture barriers......
But what bothers me most about concrete slab houses, is plumbing repairs......
There is something about jack hammering up floors that I would rather avoid.....
Happy to live in houses where the mechanical systems can be accessed with minimal intrusion into the finished spaces.
As I said earlier, this is why I will not put drywall ceilings in the basement.
In my new house especially, (not that it is very new, built in 1964) I can repair/replace plumbing, wiring, heat, A/C with little or no damge/disruption to the finished spaces.
As for all this stuff going on where Doughless is, I can't speak to that, but we sure don't have those kinds of problems here as a general rule.
So, lets assume for a minute you are going to build wood frame house with wood framed floors. You need to dig a 36" deep, 24" wide trench all around the perimeter for the footers. Then the code says you need 24" in the craw space, so either you build the house 24" above grade, or you remove more soil material to get your 24" crawl space.
If you build the house 24" above the original grade, that means you will be building 5' high concrete poured, or CMU foundation walls, 36" below grade, 24" above grade.
And now the IRC (International Residential Code) says your crawl space must have a "rat slab", a concrete floor, even if it is not finished smooth.
So you have dug a big whole, bought enough concrete to pour a floor, and built walls 4-5 feet high.
At that point it does not cost much more to dig out the whole thing, build 8-9 foot walls, and get a concrete finisher for that floor.......and there you have it - a basement!
DoughlessYep, the joists were installed with the crown side down in that part of the room, about 7 of them. When the house was built 25 years ago, the saw guy did his job, marked the crown with an arrow, but the framers installed the joists with the arrows pointed down, LOL.
DoughlessYep, the joists were installed with the crown side down in that part of the room, about 7 of them. When the house was built 25 years ago, the saw guy did his job, marked the crown with an arrow, but the framers installed the joists with the arrows pointed down, LOL. About 10 linear feet with a one and half inch sag at the valley. We spent the $2,500 to have new joists sistered to them.
7j43k Douglas, May I inquire where this hotbed of building innovation is located? I must say, I am impressed at their abilities. If not their competence. My house is a pretty neat old house (1914). But I did finally notice a problem with the flooring at the back of the house aligning with the back wall and cabinetry. Turns out the bright lads built one side of the building longer than the other by 8". So the back corners aren't 90 degrees. On the plus side, that's the only screw up I've ever found. I do love this house. Only wishing it were 4000 sq ft larger, for what are probably obvious reasons. Ed
Douglas,
May I inquire where this hotbed of building innovation is located? I must say, I am impressed at their abilities. If not their competence.
My house is a pretty neat old house (1914). But I did finally notice a problem with the flooring at the back of the house aligning with the back wall and cabinetry. Turns out the bright lads built one side of the building longer than the other by 8". So the back corners aren't 90 degrees. On the plus side, that's the only screw up I've ever found. I do love this house. Only wishing it were 4000 sq ft larger, for what are probably obvious reasons.
I'd rather not say. I don't want to compromise my home values. I'd just as soon practice the American way and pass the problems along to the next guy.
I think it was also the early days of migrant labor, and not so highly skilled, so I'm told by people in the area.
I think its just a reflection of the boom times when anyone who can swing a hammer thinks they're a builder, and the city/county doesn't have enough inspectors to keep up or the fortitude to slow things down. We had that problem back in the midwest too.
It also depends on the trade. Some things are done really well. Real stucco, hardly a sign of a crack or repair in 25 years. Water diversion details in the gables. Trim work throughout the house with nice tight joints. But other parts of the house obviously had the B team assigned to the task.
My beef is that nobody ever thought to fix the problems, they just lived with them.
7j43k Y'all throw up the cable, quick-like, y'hear? "...strung ALONG the joists..." is OK "...tucked up ALONG the joists." is OK crossing underneath ain't Ed
Y'all throw up the cable, quick-like, y'hear?
"...strung ALONG the joists..." is OK
"...tucked up ALONG the joists." is OK
crossing underneath ain't
Yes Ed, they are strung underneath in the several houses I've seen.
Just one more house story.
When we were looking for houses here, I noticed as I'd walk along the floors, there were dips in the floors throughtout most of the houses. The realtor either claimed to not notice them or said that settling can be bad here in the Georgia clay. I didn't believe it, no sign of drywall crack repairs or similar things.
We ended up buying the house with the most leve floors, but there was a really bad sag in one of the upper bedrooms. Well, we finally replaced the carpet, and after going through various theories about what the sag could be, we decided to just rip up the subfloor to see what was going on.
Yep, the joists were installed with the crown side down in that part of the room, about 7 of them. When the house was built 25 years ago, the saw guy did his job, marked the crown with an arrow, but the framers installed the joists with the arrows pointed down, LOL.
About 10 linear feet with a one and half inch sag at the valley. We spent the $2,500 to have new joists sistered to them. Funny thing is, the three previous owners of the house just lived with it I guess. I couldn't.
Ok, back to trains for me.
Doughless Thanks for digging that out. That was my original understanding too, which was the basis of my original post on the subject. That it is a code violation. What I heard locally was that if its considered non living space it didn't matter. (maybe that means the inspector gives it a pass). Which I then retorted that stringing it under the joists would pretty much render any basement room non living space, maybe even the whole basement.
Thanks for digging that out. That was my original understanding too, which was the basis of my original post on the subject. That it is a code violation.
What I heard locally was that if its considered non living space it didn't matter. (maybe that means the inspector gives it a pass). Which I then retorted that stringing it under the joists would pretty much render any basement room non living space, maybe even the whole basement.
Prior to 2008, this rule did not apply to crawl spaces, which certainly can be viewed as "non living space". Perhaps that's where this curious "interpretation" came from. But a basement is not a crawl space.
Perhaps, on the building plans, that area that most of us call a basement was called a "non living space subterranean enclosure". Thus obviously not a basement. Y'all throw up the cable, quick-like, y'hear?
What I have seen, its usually limited to one room, strung along the joists until they reach places where it can be tucked up along the joists. Many houses down here were built that way during the boom times, aparently. I'm talking mid 1990s, (before the engineered joists, either the I-beam joists with the easy hole punch out or the truss looking joists). Obviously strung that way for speed of construction with thick 2x joists.
What I have seen, its usually limited to one room, strung along the joists until they reach places where it can be tucked up along the joists.
Many houses down here were built that way during the boom times, aparently. I'm talking mid 1990s, (before the engineered joists, either the I-beam joists with the easy hole punch out or the truss looking joists). Obviously strung that way for speed of construction with thick 2x joists.
7j43k 7j43k Doughless I was commenting more upon codes back in the day. My basement is full of romex strung along the ceiling, rendering the space permanently nonliving space unless I install a drop ceiling or hire an electrician to punch it through the joists, which is a lot of work that should have been done when the house was built, IMO. I hate old building codes. I seriously doubt the NEC EVER allowed romex to be installed under joists in a basement. I think you are the proud owner of non-permit wiring. Or perhaps your inspector was incompetent or bought. There is a terrific history of electrical wiring here: https://www.scribd.com/doc/18355180/Electrical-Wiring-History Also, I just bought a copy of the 1947 NEC. When it shows, I'll see what it says. Ed My copy has arrived. The requirements for romex on ceiling joists in unfinished basements are the same as currently. Running 14 and 12 and 10 gauge romex underneath those joists is a violation, and has been at least since 1947. There was not in 1947, and there is not currently, any exception for utility rooms and storage spaces or any other "special room" in basements. Ed
7j43k Doughless I was commenting more upon codes back in the day. My basement is full of romex strung along the ceiling, rendering the space permanently nonliving space unless I install a drop ceiling or hire an electrician to punch it through the joists, which is a lot of work that should have been done when the house was built, IMO. I hate old building codes. I seriously doubt the NEC EVER allowed romex to be installed under joists in a basement. I think you are the proud owner of non-permit wiring. Or perhaps your inspector was incompetent or bought. There is a terrific history of electrical wiring here: https://www.scribd.com/doc/18355180/Electrical-Wiring-History Also, I just bought a copy of the 1947 NEC. When it shows, I'll see what it says. Ed
Doughless I was commenting more upon codes back in the day. My basement is full of romex strung along the ceiling, rendering the space permanently nonliving space unless I install a drop ceiling or hire an electrician to punch it through the joists, which is a lot of work that should have been done when the house was built, IMO. I hate old building codes.
I was commenting more upon codes back in the day.
My basement is full of romex strung along the ceiling, rendering the space permanently nonliving space unless I install a drop ceiling or hire an electrician to punch it through the joists, which is a lot of work that should have been done when the house was built, IMO. I hate old building codes.
I seriously doubt the NEC EVER allowed romex to be installed under joists in a basement.
I think you are the proud owner of non-permit wiring. Or perhaps your inspector was incompetent or bought.
There is a terrific history of electrical wiring here:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/18355180/Electrical-Wiring-History
Also, I just bought a copy of the 1947 NEC. When it shows, I'll see what it says.
My copy has arrived. The requirements for romex on ceiling joists in unfinished basements are the same as currently.
Running 14 and 12 and 10 gauge romex underneath those joists is a violation, and has been at least since 1947.
There was not in 1947, and there is not currently, any exception for utility rooms and storage spaces or any other "special room" in basements.