If you find yourself afflicted with this problem, beyond the dropped ceiling that Sheldon is considering, you can also:
Put strips of 1/2" plywood on the bottom of the joists, between the romex "crossings". Overlay that with 2 x 2's. You can now legally attach sheetrock for your ceiling. If you're going to get a permit, be sure to run this by the inspector first.
Or, of course, you can pull the romex back and run it through newly drilled holes in the joists. Builds character!
Ed
We're in the extreme early stages of house hunting and my stomach drops when I see a rat's nest of wiring going every which way under the joists in any part of the basement. I want my train room and she wants a finished laundry room. Welp.
Doughless I was commenting more upon codes back in the day. My basement is full of romex strung along the ceiling, rendering the space permanently nonliving space unless I install a drop ceiling or hire an electrician to punch it through the joists, which is a lot of work that should have been done when the house was built, IMO. I hate old building codes.
I was commenting more upon codes back in the day.
My basement is full of romex strung along the ceiling, rendering the space permanently nonliving space unless I install a drop ceiling or hire an electrician to punch it through the joists, which is a lot of work that should have been done when the house was built, IMO. I hate old building codes.
I seriously doubt the NEC EVER allowed romex to be installed under joists in a basement.
I think you are the proud owner of non-permit wiring. Or perhaps your inspector was incompetent or bought.
There is a terrific history of electrical wiring here:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/18355180/Electrical-Wiring-History
Also, I just bought a copy of the 1947 NEC. When it shows, I'll see what it says.
I was commenting more upon codes back in the day. I think most everywhere current code demands romex (equivilent) be punched through the joists instead of stapled to the bottom of it or hanging. If the homeowner wants to convert non living space to living space via drywall on the ceiling, they run the risk of punching a nail in the romex unless its away from the nailing surface.
- Douglas
Doughless 7j43k Doughless BTW, don't you love when they string Romex under the joists instead of through them? Around here, that's viewed as an employment opportunity for people like me. Ed You must be from Georgia.
7j43k Doughless BTW, don't you love when they string Romex under the joists instead of through them? Around here, that's viewed as an employment opportunity for people like me. Ed
Doughless BTW, don't you love when they string Romex under the joists instead of through them?
BTW, don't you love when they string Romex under the joists instead of through them?
Around here, that's viewed as an employment opportunity for people like me.
You must be from Georgia.
Must be a story there. Nope.
Oakland CA.
Where the electrical inspectors are fond of enforcing NEC 334.15C. They typically also get huffy about ANY exposed romex below 8' above the floor. Or the ground.
They are also fond of NEC 110.12 (neat and workmanlike).
ATLANTIC CENTRALConstruction motto: Fast, Good quality, Affordable, pick two, you cannot have all three......we typically go for the second two.
Reminds me of some of the best advice in medicine. Diabetes, Cigarettes and legs, pick two.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Kevin,
The walls and floor are fine as is, maybe a fresh coat of paint. The walls are concrete block, the floor is concrete. There is no need for finished/drywall walls, or other flooring. Aisles can be carpeted after the layout is built.
I will most likely install a drop ceiling, but I will install it very close to the floor joists above, I have done that before.
And new lighting is a given.
The house above is move in ready for the most part. We are doing a few really simple things before we move in. And we do have some projects in mind, but they will wait until the other house is sold. But even those projects are simple enough.
Being in the construction business, none of this is difficult for me.
So as time allows, I can play in the basement pretty much right away.
What kind of windows are you looking to replace? What kind of windows are you looking to buy?
Construction motto:
Fast, Good quality, Affordable, pick two, you cannot have all three......we typically go for the second two.
Sheldon
Sheldon,
.
What is your plan for this project?
Do you have remodeling to do to the main house first, or do you get to jump right into your train room?
Do you plan to finish the whole room before you begin layout construction?
How much work does the layout room need? It looks really good in the pictures, but I know nothing about basements.
The fact that I am so far behind on my remodel schedule has me very frustrated at this point. My next step is new windows, but my travel schedule makes meeting with an installed very difficult right now.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Yes, I will be fixing a few small things, and installing new lighting, etc.
Hey Sheldon-
Okay, this is good. Progress!
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Some photos of the new layout space: Sheldon
Some photos of the new layout space:
Congratulations Sheldon. Please keep us posted.
SeeYou190 WOW! That is quite a space. I love a blank canvas. . The celing looks a little low to me, but that might be the photo properties. I am 6' 7" tall, so ceilings are a big concern for me. . There is nothing like that here in Southwest Florida. . I am looking forward to updates. . -Kevin .
WOW! That is quite a space. I love a blank canvas.
The celing looks a little low to me, but that might be the photo properties. I am 6' 7" tall, so ceilings are a big concern for me.
There is nothing like that here in Southwest Florida.
I am looking forward to updates.
Thank you, yes, I'm happy.
The ceiling is a little low, slightly less than 8 feet, but no ductwork or piping in the way. The air conditioning is in the attic, the heat is hot water baseboard.
I'm only 6' tall, so it works fine for me, especially since I long ago lost all interest in multi decks.
The details of the track plan are coming along nicely.
Just a note to those of you in other parts of the country, basements like this are "typical" around here. MOST homes are built on basements here, many remain unfinished open spaces like this. This house was built in 1964, this space has always been used as storage, work shop, and utility space.
Maybe that is why so many of my modeler friends also have moderately large layouts. Even shared with utility equipment, sometimes washer and dryer (ours is up stairs), or even a family room, these basements often still provide 800 to 1500 sq ft spaces for layouts in the "average" home.
More later,
BRAKIE Sheldon,If I had that much space I would build a point to point branch line or a more likely a point to point city industrial lead around the walls. I look forward is seeing progress photos on your new layout.
Sheldon,If I had that much space I would build a point to point branch line or a more likely a point to point city industrial lead around the walls.
I look forward is seeing progress photos on your new layout.
Larry,
I visted a layout not far from me years ago where the guy has a point to point ISL that fills a space this size. It was a very nice layout.
BUT, I want mainline operation as well. So I will build what I have explained.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
The big wooden work bench came with the house - it has a date with a saw and a landfill......
The new layout plan is nearly worked out, and goes to the formal drawing board soon.
Wow! You touch on a lot of things. What I found from seeing some layouts is no two are the same. The differences are endless and who am I to judge one better than another?
Do what works for you within different constraints and go from there. Ultimately, it's your layout. Enjoy what you have.
ROBERT PETRICK Hey Sheldon- I've probably asked this question before, and I'm pretty sure one of the Daves has asked it recently: do you have a finalized track plan? I know you're in the process of moving and the new space might not yet be nailed down. Your postings in this thread and in others kinda seem like you're revising and refining your Givens and Druthers and you're fleshing out a design narrative of what you want to accomplish. Has this activity gelled into a Final Plan? My interest in Layout Design (particularly layout design of others (can't help it, I'm nosy)) is how all these ideas and decisions and the compromises they induce come together and the physical layout starts taking shape. For me, the thing that really sets stuff in motion is a Final Track Plan (or something pretty close). Just curious. Thanks. Robert
I've probably asked this question before, and I'm pretty sure one of the Daves has asked it recently: do you have a finalized track plan?
I know you're in the process of moving and the new space might not yet be nailed down. Your postings in this thread and in others kinda seem like you're revising and refining your Givens and Druthers and you're fleshing out a design narrative of what you want to accomplish. Has this activity gelled into a Final Plan? My interest in Layout Design (particularly layout design of others (can't help it, I'm nosy)) is how all these ideas and decisions and the compromises they induce come together and the physical layout starts taking shape. For me, the thing that really sets stuff in motion is a Final Track Plan (or something pretty close).
Just curious. Thanks.
There is not a final plan for the new space yet. But understand that it will be made up of a series of layout design elements that will not really change from my previous space.
I never completed the new version of the layout in the previous space, but none of the basic elements will change, only expand some, and be adjusted to the new space.
I'm not really "revising" as much as simply "adjusting" for the new space.
The goals, and the methods for reaching them, are pretty set.
The new space is not only larger, it is better proportioned for this concept.
I am a draftsman by original training, so I assure you an actual final plan is in the works. I will figure out how to publish it when it is ready enough (it is not being drafted electronically, I can do CADD, I hate CADD....).
Each of the design criteria elements I have posted in various posts in this thread are concepts I have been working on for some time now, have tested in some cases, have used in layouts I have designed for others, etc.
I don't mention it much on here, and I'm not looking for design business, but I have designed a number of layouts for other modelers over the years.
Having been at this for nearly 50 years now, I am very set in my goals, likes, dislikes, etc.
PS - Just moved much of the train stuff to the new house today!
BRAKIE Sheldon,I get it all to well.. A loop layout with double track can lead to "open 'er up and let it fly" like you seen at train shows. A point to point is not a ugly thing and you can run 30 car trains by planing ahead while designing the basement or special building layout. For visitor running or just train watching have a return loop in both hidden staging yards.
Sheldon,I get it all to well.. A loop layout with double track can lead to "open 'er up and let it fly" like you seen at train shows.
A point to point is not a ugly thing and you can run 30 car trains by planing ahead while designing the basement or special building layout.
For visitor running or just train watching have a return loop in both hidden staging yards.
I can't help that you think it is necessary to restrict the track plan to enforce people's behavior. I am not running a club, I am building a personal layout for ME.
I have been in clubs, never again. Clubs are different from having a group of guys come over and operate.
A continious loop with thru staging does exactly the same thing more effectively rather than return loops at the ends.
Example - the empty coal trains always moves west, the loaded one always moves east - without having to be turned or restaged.
For actual operating sessions NO trains run all the way thru the staging - they all TERMINATE in staging - That makes it point to point.
My layout is designed to do three things with equal quality and importance:
Operate with a crew and dispatcher.
Provide simple but high action display operation.
And support interesting and relaxing one man operation for ME.
Just in case you don't understand the mainline scheme here, the mainline comes into view, it runs around the whole room, out onto several peninsulas, and as it gets back around to where it started it again disappears from view, with a view block seperating where the scenery would otherwise meet.
At that point tracks continue in the same direction around the room BEHIND the back drop. That is where the staging yards are. There is not just one giant staging yard, there are multiple ones for east and west as the mainline makes it way all the way around the room behind the back drop, eventually meeting the other end of the visable mainline.
It is a classic twice around track plan with only one loop around in view, the second loop around is the hidden staging.
So unless turned on the wye, east bound trains move east, west bound trains move west. They are only seen once in their two loops around the room, then they stop in a staging track.
Half way thru the visable portion there is a LARGE yard, engine terminal, piggyback yard, passenger terminal, feed to the belt line, etc, where all the "operation" really takes place.
Again, only ONE town is modeled. Features are only modeled once. Trains "enter" the stage, perform their role, and exit to staging.
You act like I have never operated on a point to point layout - I have, some really big and nice ones at that. But in my view there was still too much to do at each end and not enough "distance" in the middle.
Surely not enough distance for 40 car trains..............which I will not give up.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Action, and plenty of it. - one of the other reasons for the double track mainline is action. Sheldon,A single track main can and will deliver plenty of action of course while railfaning I've seen plenty of action on both single and double mains and I've seen long lulls on both.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Action, and plenty of it. - one of the other reasons for the double track mainline is action.
Sheldon,A single track main can and will deliver plenty of action of course while railfaning I've seen plenty of action on both single and double mains and I've seen long lulls on both.
You just refuse to get it. Some of us do like "display" operation some of the time.
When I operate alone, I can put four trains on the mainline and forget about them.
While the mainline is just a double track loop with thru staging for "crew" operating sessions, it has a series of cutoffs that turn it into four seperate loops, two west bound, two eastbound. You cannot visually follow the train all the way around, it goes "off stage" then reappears at the other end of the line after making its way thru the staging area......
For visitors, or when operating alone, I can put four trains on and let them run. Then I can still operate the yard and industrial belt line while those trains just run.
You have made it more than clear that you don't have any interest in display running, but some of us do like to simply watch trains.
AND, those trains on the loops, can easily be stopped in the staging yards, and replaced with different trains randomly, so you are not always just watching the same train, or same four trains......
There will be capacity for about 30 DIFFERENT trains in the hidden staging.
And again, with single track, I think it is very unrealistic to have only a train length, or two, or even three, between passing sidings that in my case would need to be 30 feet long. AGAIN, you may be happy with unrealisticly short trains, I am not.
As Kevin and I have both pointed out, long trains are l....o....n....g.
You might be happy with a 12 car train, I am not.
My typical freight train is an ABA, or ABBA, or two 2-8-2's, with 35 to 45 cars, and a caboose - about 26 actual feet long.
In many cases, especially with steam power, It actually takes two, or even three locos to pull these trains. The layout does have a series of grades, typically about 2%
Typical passenger trains are two E8's, or PA's, or a 4-8-2, or two 4-6-2's, with 8 to 12 cars - about 15 actual feet long.
Yes, there will be close to 1,000 feet of staging track alone.
Single track provides lots of "mental action" for operators, but little "visual action" for viewers.
Double track, or more importantly double track with SEPARATE single track industrial belt line operations, provides lots of both.
Again, in the 1940's and 50's, trains on the PRR northeast corridor ran with 15 minute headways in both directions. Stand by the tracks for eight minutes, you saw a train - a moving train.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAction, and plenty of it. - one of the other reasons for the double track mainline is action.
Maybe I was not clear enough, or maybe you did not read all of my posts in this thread, but I am actually doing exactly what you suggest, I am only modeling one town (small city actually), and the three or so miles on either side of it.
The layout controls allow good display running, single operator control, or a crew of as many as 20.
I get along fine with other modelers, and around here, I could get 15 guys tomorrow night.
I'm not as well rounded as you, I'm indifferent about the beach, my wife won't get on airplanes, and while some more travel would be ok, it's not a high priority. My kids have been gone for years, thank the Lord.
I only have a few other hobbies, none of which are as big for me as model trains.
35-45 cars will be the typical train length, longer trains will be easily possible. The layout will stage about 30 trains of that size.
I will cover some more specific topics soon.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMy goal with a large space is not to make the layout more complex, or model more places, or squeeze in more features. My goal is to better capture the immensity of the prototype.
2) I need to accept that I do not get along well with the “real” Model Railroad Simulated Operations and Rule Book crowd. The crew that would be needed to operate the railroad would never accept my version of the STRATTON & GILLETTE for being up to their standards in conformity or rivet counting.
3) I love being in the layout room alone. The real world cannot bother me in there. It needs to be my haven, and not a place where a job, chores, or work takes place.
4) Detail and fun scenes are what I enjoy. If I was going to complete a 2,000 square foot monster, there would not be time for all the little things I want. That would be unacceptable.
5) As the girls continue to drift away from home base, and as weekends on beaches mean more to us, I will be away from home more and more with my wife. Again, time to scale back the goals a bit.
6) I can live with an ABA set of EMD F units pulling a 14 car train. That is about as much train as I can see in a single glance anyway, so it works quite well for me.
After reading all of the posts in this thread I have to say that I am very happy with the layout that I designed for our club.
The towns and industrial sites are quite a distance from the main yard. If we allow for a train to pass through the scenery twice it can have travelled up to 400 ft. from the main yard to it's final destination. We will be able to run long trains without suffering the problem of having the engine in one town and the caboose in another.
There are several areas of double track which will serve as passing sidings so in fact we will be able to run two or three long trains at the same time. There are also nine 'industrial' areas fed by sidings so there will be ample opportunity to do switching and local runs too.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Interesting replies from all, thank you.
A few more specific topics:
Action, and plenty of it. - one of the other reasons for the double track mainline is action. Here is a prototype example from history.
I live in northeastern Maryland. Just minutes from my new house, both the B&O and PRR, oops, CSX and NS, cross the Susquhanna River. The former PRR, now NS line is the once mostly 4 track electrified mainline commonly known as the Northeast Corridor, also used today by AMTRAK (it narrows onto two tracks to cross the swing bridge over the Susquehanna).
On the north side of the Susquehanna, in a liitle town called Perryville, a wye takes a line northwest up the river valley to Harrisburg, and the once 4 track mainline proceeds northeast to Phily. And there was once an interchange track with the B&O, I think that is inactive now?
The point of all this explaination is this, in the heyday of the PRR, the Perryville wye was a busy spot. A 1947 timetable for the Perryville station/tower shows no less than a train roughly every eight minutes, in one direction or another, nearly 24 hours a day.
That is the kind of action I intend to simulate. Only double track provides that level of action.
My "wye" - My layout will include a wye along the mainline. The branch end of the wye will be single track - until it goes "off stage", where it will feed an additonal staging yard, most likely about 8 tracks.
So much like the Perryville wye/Harrisburg cutoff on the PRR relates to the Northeast Corridor mainline, trains will be able to take the wye and will go "off stage", ending up in staging, or will enter the layout from that staging and proceed east or west. The wye will also be the primary way to turn a complete train.
I have a small layout right now. My interest and budget in building it varies, so its better to be able to do some small projects here and there and make dramatic changes with just small things... rather than have a big empty layout that takes for ever to fill up.However, I do want to go big someday. When I do that though I want to try a few tricks to keep it easier. Heavy concentrations of tracks really only make sense in large towns and yards. I want a future layout to have lots of empty space between those towns, single tracked mainline with a few sidings here and there en route. Spurs and industries were it only makes sense on the prototype, and even then its spaced out enough that trains will be spending some time between industries just transversing open spaces. I will also try and impose speed limits, to prevent operators from just blasting through it at full throttle, and keep things slowed down. I'll let the backdrop handle most of the scenic duty in this big open areas.