7j43k Sheldon, Hopefully it's warm, salted and buttered. I figured YOU knew that. But on hearing that romex-on-the-bottom-of-joists is apparently REAL common in some parts of the country, I thought it might be appropriate to examine the Code implications. Ed
Sheldon,
Hopefully it's warm, salted and buttered.
I figured YOU knew that. But on hearing that romex-on-the-bottom-of-joists is apparently REAL common in some parts of the country, I thought it might be appropriate to examine the Code implications.
Ed
Agreed
I knew that, I just got some popcorn while you guys discussed it, and again the wires in the picture are low voltage and will be moved....
Sheldon
7j43k Doughless I was commenting more upon codes back in the day. My basement is full of romex strung along the ceiling, rendering the space permanently nonliving space unless I install a drop ceiling or hire an electrician to punch it through the joists, which is a lot of work that should have been done when the house was built, IMO. I hate old building codes. I seriously doubt the NEC EVER allowed romex to be installed under joists in a basement. I think you are the proud owner of non-permit wiring. Or perhaps your inspector was incompetent or bought. There is a terrific history of electrical wiring here: https://www.scribd.com/doc/18355180/Electrical-Wiring-History Also, I just bought a copy of the 1947 NEC. When it shows, I'll see what it says. Ed
Doughless I was commenting more upon codes back in the day. My basement is full of romex strung along the ceiling, rendering the space permanently nonliving space unless I install a drop ceiling or hire an electrician to punch it through the joists, which is a lot of work that should have been done when the house was built, IMO. I hate old building codes.
I was commenting more upon codes back in the day.
My basement is full of romex strung along the ceiling, rendering the space permanently nonliving space unless I install a drop ceiling or hire an electrician to punch it through the joists, which is a lot of work that should have been done when the house was built, IMO. I hate old building codes.
I seriously doubt the NEC EVER allowed romex to be installed under joists in a basement.
I think you are the proud owner of non-permit wiring. Or perhaps your inspector was incompetent or bought.
There is a terrific history of electrical wiring here:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/18355180/Electrical-Wiring-History
Also, I just bought a copy of the 1947 NEC. When it shows, I'll see what it says.
My copy has arrived. The requirements for romex on ceiling joists in unfinished basements are the same as currently.
Running 14 and 12 and 10 gauge romex underneath those joists is a violation, and has been at least since 1947.
There was not in 1947, and there is not currently, any exception for utility rooms and storage spaces or any other "special room" in basements.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Because your new windows need to be very close to the exact size of tbe old windows, an "off the shelf" product is unlikely. . Actually, they are all in the catalogue of "standard" sized window openings in concrete block homes. It seems since the house is made out of "legos" that are 8 by 8 by 16, there are only a few sizes of window openings possible. . Lucky me, because that saves some serious dollars over custom built units. . -Kevin .
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Because your new windows need to be very close to the exact size of tbe old windows, an "off the shelf" product is unlikely.
.
Actually, they are all in the catalogue of "standard" sized window openings in concrete block homes. It seems since the house is made out of "legos" that are 8 by 8 by 16, there are only a few sizes of window openings possible.
Lucky me, because that saves some serious dollars over custom built units.
-Kevin
I'm sure there are people in the window industry that cater to that market, but there are no specific industry standards on window rough opening sizes.
Historically, windows are sized based on "sash sizes" and each manufacturer will then have slightly different rough opening or "unit sizes" based on the design of his product.
Again, I am not refering specificly to sliders like you have, but to all types of windows.
If you are building a home here, you will need to know the brand and type of windows before you frame the openings in the walls.
So if all of your windows are even units of concrete block (refered to as CMU's, concrete masonry units), and there are vendors making products in your region for that market, great.
Concrete block individual homes are rare in this region. They enjoyed some popularity 50-70 years ago, but most had brick vineer exteriors, not stucco.
And few houses here are build in the style of your home.
Most individual homes here are wood framed, even if they have brick veneer exteriors.
Stucco and Dryvit are not very common here.
I am cursed/blessed with a small train room, 9 foot by just over 8 foot. Right now I am working on my micro traction layout for show duty. But under a 4x8 sheet of plywood is the beginnings of a shelf type layout going around the walls for a future HO layout when I have enough "stuff" stockpiled up to build it. Yes the curves will be way to tight, but like Sheldon, I will be working within the confines of my space. Our whole house is 975 sq foot and that includes the small 1 car attached garage. Tons of others told me to go with N scale, but HO is small enough for my eyesite. I think, some of the complaints against those with huge layouts is with the higher cost to todays trains(perceived/real or not) causes many modelers to want to see smaller high detailed layouts and other ways to beat the high costs of model trains. Not all have access to excellent train shows or shops that get in estates, both are a great way to beat high costs. When I build my layout, it will be a series of scenes that I saw many times riding a festival excursion train as a child in Logansport, Indiana. But I am going to proto freelance that railroad beyond the yearly excursion to be more like a shortline. Mike the Aspie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
ATLANTIC CENTRALBecause your new windows need to be very close to the exact size of tbe old windows, an "off the shelf" product is unlikely.
Living the dream.
Casement windows:
https://www.southwestexteriors.com/blog/p.130708000/a-review-of-double-hung-and-casement-windows-which-is-right-for-you/
Kevin,
Ok, that tells me a lot, I now know how your windows are installed and how to replace them.
A casement is a more vertical window hinged on the side, that opens with a crank.
I only know a little about you storm requirements, but I would think you hsve local manufacturers making high quality vinyl frame replacement windows with the necessary specs.
Your old windows need to come completely out, and new ones installed. This is not generally the case with wood windows in wooden houses.
Because your new windows need to be very close to the exact size of tbe old windows, an "off the shelf" product is unlikely.
Custom wood windows can be very expenive, but are generally the best quality. Exterior surfaces are typically aluminum, fiberglass or vinyl clad.
About the train room a/c, a window unit is a bad idea, better to use a thru the wall or mini split system.
ATLANTIC CENTRALSo Kevin, is it a wood frame house with dryvit stucco, or a masonry house?
It is what is called a "CBS" house, which I think stands for Concrete Block w/Stucco. I removed the hideous arches out in front of the door immediately after buying the house. The rest of the 1980s nonsense is finally going away as well.
The windows are metal framed horizonally sliding that I cannot emphasize enough are GARBAGE. The only trim is a marble shelf at the bottom of the window, typical for 1980s Florida.
I do not know what a casement is.
The roof is already upgraded (and battle tested) to Category V standards, CBS is by default CATV, so the windows are all that needs to be replaced for storm safety.
My lot is only 2 feet above sea level, but the house is elevated 8 feet above street grade, so I am storm surge safe at CATV levels for flooding on north side strikes.
We are in the heart of storm season right now.
So Kevin, is it a wood frame house with dryvit stucco, or a masonry house?
Are the existing windows wood, or metal, or vinyl?
Are they casements?
ATLANTIC CENTRALIt's hard for me to imagine a housewith only 7 windows. My new house has 22, the big Queen Anne has 54..... What kind of house is this? How is it built? What material are the current windows? Are they casements, double hung, sliders?
It is a typical late 1980s Florida house. Concrete block construction, poorly executed Pseudo-Spanish styling. Miami Vice interior fixtures. I cannot wait to finally paint over the pink exterior. There are very few, and small windows, to meet insulation requirements and lower costs.
The front window is almost 10 feet wide, and in the back I have a 16 foot wall of sliding glass doors that all open into recessed openings in the building, so it a little more open than it sounds. The front of the house faces West, so when designing a Florida house, that is where you put the fewest windows, or the afternoon/evening sun will kill you.
There is one window in the front, three on the North side, two on the East, and one facing South.
The lack of windows makes adding a train room much easier. There was only one small window in the old Master Bedroom, and it will be on the staging side of the layout design, so no window opening problems at all with my 11 by 22 space.
richhotrain I agree with you, Sheldon, on casement windows. There may be three in an opening, but each is replaceable without touching or interfering with the other two. Rich
I agree with you, Sheldon, on casement windows. There may be three in an opening, but each is replaceable without touching or interfering with the other two.
Rich
Rich,
When it cones to replacing windows, there are a lot of variables. When we restored the Queen Anne, we did not replace the "window", we only replaced the sash in the windows. The jamb, sill, interior and exterior casing/trim is all original and undisturbed.
And most importantly, the glass size and sash details are architecturally correct and are a good match to the orginals. We used a product commonly called a "sash kit".
Most current slide in replacement widow systens destroy the "architecture" of the window.
And installing new construction windows in an existing building can be very intrusive to trim and siding.
7j43k If you have an "open" ceiling, you have a LOT of surfaces to collect dust: pipes, wiring, ducting..... And there's no reason to assume it's all going to stay up there. Not to mention possibly "stuff" coming through the subfloor gaps, if there are any. A ceiling, either solid or dropped, will minimize dust. And, if it's white, make lighting more even and efficient. Ed
If you have an "open" ceiling, you have a LOT of surfaces to collect dust: pipes, wiring, ducting.....
And there's no reason to assume it's all going to stay up there. Not to mention possibly "stuff" coming through the subfloor gaps, if there are any. A ceiling, either solid or dropped, will minimize dust.
And, if it's white, make lighting more even and efficient.
That was my concern as well. I've seen open ceilings with everything painted black and it looks great. But those were rec rooms/ game rooms. Even in commercial places like bars and restaurants it works well.
A train room needs to be free from dust as much as possible.
- Douglas
Alton Junction
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL It's hard for me to imagine a housewith only 7 windows. My new house has 22, the big Queen Anne has 54..... What kind of house is this? How is it built? What material are the current windows? Are they casements, double hung, sliders? It depends on how you count "windows". When we built our current home 20 years ago, I still clearly recall our builder telling me that there were 44 windows in our home in response to my request to upgrade from Norco to Andersen. Said it would be hugely expensive to upgrade. I believed him and decided to stick with Norco. Later, as I began to replace the inferior Norco windows, I realized how he counted 44 windows. There are lot fewer than 44 window "openings" cut into the walls, but I have casement windows with two or three "windows" in each opening in most rooms. Actual openings total 16. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL It's hard for me to imagine a housewith only 7 windows. My new house has 22, the big Queen Anne has 54..... What kind of house is this? How is it built? What material are the current windows? Are they casements, double hung, sliders?
It's hard for me to imagine a housewith only 7 windows. My new house has 22, the big Queen Anne has 54.....
What kind of house is this? How is it built? What material are the current windows? Are they casements, double hung, sliders?
It depends on how you count "windows".
When we built our current home 20 years ago, I still clearly recall our builder telling me that there were 44 windows in our home in response to my request to upgrade from Norco to Andersen. Said it would be hugely expensive to upgrade.
I believed him and decided to stick with Norco. Later, as I began to replace the inferior Norco windows, I realized how he counted 44 windows. There are lot fewer than 44 window "openings" cut into the walls, but I have casement windows with two or three "windows" in each opening in most rooms. Actual openings total 16.
True enough, but here in the 1901 Queen Anne, there are only three locations with mulled pairs/tripples in the same rough framed openings.
But from a cost standpoint, a factory (or field installed) mulled pair is twice as expensive as a single, that's two windows.
I would possibly agree that a factory mulled pair of casements is one "window" operationally and aesthetically, the industry still considers it two "units".
In the case of my Queen Anne, the windows are virtually all double hung, and even those mulled together are pretty widely sperated because they required weight pockets between them, so the mullion trim is 6 to 9 inches wide.
Traditionally, the industry considers the two sash in a double hung window to be a "unit" and each casement sash to be a "unit", they count sash openings.
The Queen Anne unit count is actually 55, but I don't really count the stained glass fixed window diamond in the stairway.
Just ask my wife who painted the 100 plus pieces of replacement sash before I installed them.
I did not count the basement windows, or 6 door transom/sidelight windows in that 54 count.......
Lots of windows......
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL What kind of windows are you looking to replace? What kind of windows are you looking to buy? . I am looking to replace the garbage windows that were installed in the house when it was built in 1987. During the late 1980s small windows were all the style, so that works in my favor lowering the price of everything. . The master bedroom window will be a soundproof double pane window with a "blackout" interior blind. I am going to sleep like a baby! . The remaining windows (the house only has six other windows) will be whatever is the least expensive way to get a Category 5 rated impact window. I am so sick of the shutters going on and off twice a year. . I am open to options in the train room, I really have not figured that one out yet. I would like a window AC unit in there so I can keep it climate controlled while the rest of the house is opened up. I also do not want the room to be a death trap in case of a fire, so I need a window to escape from if necessary. . -Kevin .
ATLANTIC CENTRAL What kind of windows are you looking to replace? What kind of windows are you looking to buy?
I am looking to replace the garbage windows that were installed in the house when it was built in 1987. During the late 1980s small windows were all the style, so that works in my favor lowering the price of everything.
The master bedroom window will be a soundproof double pane window with a "blackout" interior blind. I am going to sleep like a baby!
The remaining windows (the house only has six other windows) will be whatever is the least expensive way to get a Category 5 rated impact window. I am so sick of the shutters going on and off twice a year.
I am open to options in the train room, I really have not figured that one out yet. I would like a window AC unit in there so I can keep it climate controlled while the rest of the house is opened up. I also do not want the room to be a death trap in case of a fire, so I need a window to escape from if necessary.
One of my favorite brands is Sierra Pacific. Pella and Marvin are good as well.
Or are you looking at stuff like vinyl replacement windows?
They vary a lot in quality and features.....and price.
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless For consideration by OP or others. I've seen black dryfall painted basement ceilings and they look great, especially when the black ceiling is in the shadows of the backside of the new lighting. The ceiling virtually disappears, which seems to give the room extra height. Not sure if it would produce dust over time, or having an open ceiling would be detrimental to a layout in general. Again, my plan is to install a drop ceiling, the house has hot water baseboard heat, so pipes go around various parts of the perimeter. Most of the heating pipes are up above the joists, or tucked neatly near the sill, but I will not cover them up, or other plumbing and electrical wires, with drywall. I have not decided for sure yet, but I may want to build a valance above the layout. In which case I would build a "ceiling" inside the valance for the layout lighting, and install a drop ceiling over the aisles. In any case, the mechanicals of the house will not be made inaccessable by such construction. Sheldon Sheldon, I understand your preference for the drop ceiling, which I think would work and look great. Judging from your response, you may have misread my immediate post as saying dryWALL, not dry Fall, a type of paint you may be aware of. For those that aren't, dryfall (Dry Fall?) is a type of paint mainly used on ceilings where the mist and splatters dry quickly, on the way down, as to not drip or stain whatever it hits. The dust gets swept up off the floor after the project's finished. That would leave the ceiling open to all mechanicals, and the deep black paint makes the ceiling and clutter disappear, since it sits above the downward pointing lighting. Just a thought for those who may not want any cover over their ceiling.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless For consideration by OP or others. I've seen black dryfall painted basement ceilings and they look great, especially when the black ceiling is in the shadows of the backside of the new lighting. The ceiling virtually disappears, which seems to give the room extra height. Not sure if it would produce dust over time, or having an open ceiling would be detrimental to a layout in general. Again, my plan is to install a drop ceiling, the house has hot water baseboard heat, so pipes go around various parts of the perimeter. Most of the heating pipes are up above the joists, or tucked neatly near the sill, but I will not cover them up, or other plumbing and electrical wires, with drywall. I have not decided for sure yet, but I may want to build a valance above the layout. In which case I would build a "ceiling" inside the valance for the layout lighting, and install a drop ceiling over the aisles. In any case, the mechanicals of the house will not be made inaccessable by such construction. Sheldon
Doughless For consideration by OP or others. I've seen black dryfall painted basement ceilings and they look great, especially when the black ceiling is in the shadows of the backside of the new lighting. The ceiling virtually disappears, which seems to give the room extra height. Not sure if it would produce dust over time, or having an open ceiling would be detrimental to a layout in general.
For consideration by OP or others. I've seen black dryfall painted basement ceilings and they look great, especially when the black ceiling is in the shadows of the backside of the new lighting. The ceiling virtually disappears, which seems to give the room extra height.
Not sure if it would produce dust over time, or having an open ceiling would be detrimental to a layout in general.
Again, my plan is to install a drop ceiling, the house has hot water baseboard heat, so pipes go around various parts of the perimeter. Most of the heating pipes are up above the joists, or tucked neatly near the sill, but I will not cover them up, or other plumbing and electrical wires, with drywall.
I have not decided for sure yet, but I may want to build a valance above the layout. In which case I would build a "ceiling" inside the valance for the layout lighting, and install a drop ceiling over the aisles.
In any case, the mechanicals of the house will not be made inaccessable by such construction.
Sheldon, I understand your preference for the drop ceiling, which I think would work and look great.
Judging from your response, you may have misread my immediate post as saying dryWALL, not dry Fall, a type of paint you may be aware of.
For those that aren't, dryfall (Dry Fall?) is a type of paint mainly used on ceilings where the mist and splatters dry quickly, on the way down, as to not drip or stain whatever it hits. The dust gets swept up off the floor after the project's finished.
That would leave the ceiling open to all mechanicals, and the deep black paint makes the ceiling and clutter disappear, since it sits above the downward pointing lighting.
Just a thought for those who may not want any cover over their ceiling.
No, it is not something I am familiar with. Sounds like something you spray, not really the type of work we ever do.
We never spray paint interiors, personally, I consider spray painting drywall an inferior process intended to save time at the expense of quality.
I just recently purchased a sprayer to paint some cedar shutters, the jury is still out on its effectiveness.........
I think you are "spot on". I think that large (or small) complex layouts are maintainence problems. Prototype railroads don't like complex trackwork because it is expensive to maintain. I believe you made the correct choice in a large layout but not an overly complex layout. By the way, when you were listing the things in you current home you won't have to deal with, it hit home with me. We have a pool, flowerbeds/landscaping, fences to maintain. I told my wife it's like living on a ranch. ALWAYS something to fix, paint or tend to. Best of luck with your new home.
Jim
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat kind of windows are you looking to replace? What kind of windows are you looking to buy?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And now folks, the wires in the picture that are running diagonally, are RG6 cable TV and phone wires, not romex...........they will be moved.......I too am an electrician. Second, others can do what they like, and what codes allow, but I will not put drywall on a basement ceiling. It is just an invitation to have to rip a hole in it later for a plumbing or electrical repair or up grade. Sheldon
And now folks, the wires in the picture that are running diagonally, are RG6 cable TV and phone wires, not romex...........they will be moved.......I too am an electrician.
Second, others can do what they like, and what codes allow, but I will not put drywall on a basement ceiling. It is just an invitation to have to rip a hole in it later for a plumbing or electrical repair or up grade.
Good man I will side with that one.
Easy access.... it's not a matter of if there is a problem upstairs, it's a matter of when. I think like you think. It's amazing how many of my advised customers don't.
I have installed microtrac suspended ceilings with Sandstone drift 2x2 recess inserts that look better than drywall anyway..... good plan good plan you have my blessing
PS. I didn't read this whole thread it's too darn long. Yes a good looking well done suspended ceiling in the basement is the way to go.
Ed is correct. You can do this if you want sheetrock on the ceiling. Or as an alternative put furring strips between the wires and put steel plates over the wires. That is admissible too.
As a licensed contractor I am very familiar with all building codes. The electrical code states any electrical wiring shall be a minimum of an inch and a quarter from any framing surface. Most electricians keep their wiring an inch and a half away from framing suface as exactly 1 inch and 1/4 spacing can fail an electrical inspection.
Unfortunately it is very common to see electrical wires stapled to the bottom of the rafters in most furnace/ utility rooms when they are classified as unfinished.
There's a fine line upon resale. These rooms still need to be classified as unfinished. Time and time again I see houses I am doing work in up for resale.
Many realtors selling these houses are including the unfinished rooms square footage as habitable living space. Habitable living space reflects the price of the property...... I see it time and time again and it's a crying crock.
"IN UNFINISHED BASEMENTS AND CRAWL SPACES [crawl spaces added in 2008], ...cable run at angles with joists, ...[#10 and smaller] shall be run either through bored holes or on running boards."
There is no exception for intended storage. Or any other use, for that matter.
Just because a new house was permitted and inspected doesn't necessarily mean anything. A co-worker and I once had a contest to identify the most code violations in any of the boxes we had to open up to work in. This for a relatively new house in beautiful Marin County.
Its one room in the basement, but its not where the furnace is so it could be livable space if properly converted.
We go to open houses. Two more house had the same thing. A large room in the basement where all romex wires to wire the entire house come from the panel, about 20 of them, and across the joists until they can find a path within the basement ceiling to where they can run along the joists instead of across them. The offending rooms where the romex crosses the joists ere good sized, about 18 by 12.
I think because they were "intended storage" and not living space, that type of construction was common around here....and I'm talking circa 1996. Of course, a drop ceiling would not really interfere, but the thing looks half s'd with all the wires running along the ceiling.