I am bumping this based on a request from a reader who could not find it.
And I have an update regarding my lighting.
After some research I havedecided to dim and control the lighting in the layout room using the X10 home automation products.
I have a long career experiance with the X10 system and wasa big user of it at my previous home. While a very old technology, X10 has recently updated their products to be LED compatible, and their dimmers will handle 600 watts of LED lighting.
Additionally, because it is a home automation system, multiple dimmers can be programed to work simultaneously, and they can be operated by a hand held remote.
This will allow three dimmers to control the whole layout, one dimmer for aisle lighting and two for layout lighting. And again the two for the layout can be operated together. Each dimmer will only be loaded to about 2/3rds of its rating.
The dimmers and nearly 2/3rd of the lights are installed now, and I will post some pictures soon.
Sheldon
I am bumping this for the benefit of a possible new member here who may come looking for it.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL SeeYou190 I don't think I will use dimmers on my layout lights. The only time I want specialized light would be for taking photographs, and I bring out the light boxes for that. It it is too bright, I might consider it. I won't know until it is built. -Kevin I do have plans for night scenes, dimming is the first step. Sheldon
SeeYou190 I don't think I will use dimmers on my layout lights. The only time I want specialized light would be for taking photographs, and I bring out the light boxes for that. It it is too bright, I might consider it. I won't know until it is built. -Kevin
I don't think I will use dimmers on my layout lights. The only time I want specialized light would be for taking photographs, and I bring out the light boxes for that.
It it is too bright, I might consider it.
I won't know until it is built.
-Kevin
I do have plans for night scenes, dimming is the first step.
Rich
Alton Junction
Living the dream.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL PS - the typical Lutron residential LED dimmer will handle 150 watts of LED's, or about 12 of the fixtures I am planning to use. To dim more than that with the same control, there are other options. I did not realize that residential dimmers had capacity ratings so low. I would have assumed that since most lighting circuits are on 15 amp breakers, they would handle more than that. If my math is right, 150 watts is barely more than one amp. Thank you for answering my question. -Kevin They will handle 600 watts of incandesent load, but your observation is correct, it is way less than a fully loaded circuit. Dimmers that can handle 1500 watts are completly different and of a commercial nature. Most do not work with LED's. The actual dimmer is not in the switch in that case for heat reasons. Sheldon In my home, I have two chandeliers, one in the foyer and one in the dining room, that each support 600 watts of incandescent lighting. I have a dimmer controlling each fixture. Each fixture is on a different 15 amp breaker along with several wall outlets. In my basement lighting, I use 65 watt dimmable LEDs, each with an energy consumption of 7 watts. When you mention that the typical Lutron residential LED dimmer will handle 150 watts of LED's, I assume that you are referring to energy consumption of watts. In other words, an LED dimmer should be able to control up to 21 of my LED flood lights. Correct? Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL PS - the typical Lutron residential LED dimmer will handle 150 watts of LED's, or about 12 of the fixtures I am planning to use. To dim more than that with the same control, there are other options. I did not realize that residential dimmers had capacity ratings so low. I would have assumed that since most lighting circuits are on 15 amp breakers, they would handle more than that. If my math is right, 150 watts is barely more than one amp. Thank you for answering my question. -Kevin They will handle 600 watts of incandesent load, but your observation is correct, it is way less than a fully loaded circuit. Dimmers that can handle 1500 watts are completly different and of a commercial nature. Most do not work with LED's. The actual dimmer is not in the switch in that case for heat reasons. Sheldon
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL PS - the typical Lutron residential LED dimmer will handle 150 watts of LED's, or about 12 of the fixtures I am planning to use. To dim more than that with the same control, there are other options. I did not realize that residential dimmers had capacity ratings so low. I would have assumed that since most lighting circuits are on 15 amp breakers, they would handle more than that. If my math is right, 150 watts is barely more than one amp. Thank you for answering my question. -Kevin
ATLANTIC CENTRAL PS - the typical Lutron residential LED dimmer will handle 150 watts of LED's, or about 12 of the fixtures I am planning to use. To dim more than that with the same control, there are other options.
I did not realize that residential dimmers had capacity ratings so low.
I would have assumed that since most lighting circuits are on 15 amp breakers, they would handle more than that. If my math is right, 150 watts is barely more than one amp.
Thank you for answering my question.
They will handle 600 watts of incandesent load, but your observation is correct, it is way less than a fully loaded circuit.
Dimmers that can handle 1500 watts are completly different and of a commercial nature. Most do not work with LED's. The actual dimmer is not in the switch in that case for heat reasons.
In my home, I have two chandeliers, one in the foyer and one in the dining room, that each support 600 watts of incandescent lighting. I have a dimmer controlling each fixture. Each fixture is on a different 15 amp breaker along with several wall outlets.
In my basement lighting, I use 65 watt dimmable LEDs, each with an energy consumption of 7 watts. When you mention that the typical Lutron residential LED dimmer will handle 150 watts of LED's, I assume that you are referring to energy consumption of watts. In other words, an LED dimmer should be able to control up to 21 of my LED flood lights. Correct?
Yes, a standard Lutron LED dimmer would handle 21 of your 7w lights, and there a some 1000w incandesent/250w LED dimmers out there, noticably more expensive.
The limits on dimmer circuitry are related to heat buildup inside residential boxes. You may have noticed that the rating decreases for units that are 'ganged' in multiswitch boxes, and that some of the higher-wattage-rated types have external heat sinks (often 'decorative').
As I recall the 'cheaper' dimmers were diacs, not triacs, which is why they were not useful for controlling motor loads. It's possible that some of the modern dimmers are indeed high-frequency fixed-pulse PWM switched, but this might involve more, rather than less, 'waste heat' in the device.
ATLANTIC CENTRALPS - the typical Lutron residential LED dimmer will handle 150 watts of LED's, or about 12 of the fixtures I am planning to use. To dim more than that with the same control, there are other options.
Yes, LED's work just like regular lights, you just need LED compatible dimmers.
All the lights on a single switch can be dimmed together.
PS - the typical Lutron residential LED dimmer will handle 150 watts of LED's, or about 12 of the fixtures I am planning to use. To dim more than that with the same control, there are other options.
Sorry if this is a dumb question.
Can you control multiple dimmable LED lights from a single wall dimmer switch?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The nice thing about this ceiling system and this lighting choice is the ability to easily make changes and to localize lighting as needed. If I decide a light is in the wrong place, all I have lost is a ceiling tile and the light is easily relocated. The plan is to be able to dim the aisle lighting and leave the layout lighting bright for normal layout viewing, but allow bright aisles for work/cleaning, etc.
The nice thing about this ceiling system and this lighting choice is the ability to easily make changes and to localize lighting as needed. If I decide a light is in the wrong place, all I have lost is a ceiling tile and the light is easily relocated.
The plan is to be able to dim the aisle lighting and leave the layout lighting bright for normal layout viewing, but allow bright aisles for work/cleaning, etc.
As far as overall layout lighting, as I think about it, you probably cannot have too much lighting. It is difficult to imagine a situation where the lights may be too bright.
richhotrain Sheldon, just to clarify, I am not being critical of the number of lights. It just amazes me how much lighting is required in these situations. When I planned out my lighting, I was taken aback when the count reached 53 cans. And, truth be told, I could probably justify another 7 cans, bringing the total to 60. There is no question that a lot of light is required, so your count of 96 is understandable. Rich
Sheldon, just to clarify, I am not being critical of the number of lights. It just amazes me how much lighting is required in these situations. When I planned out my lighting, I was taken aback when the count reached 53 cans. And, truth be told, I could probably justify another 7 cans, bringing the total to 60. There is no question that a lot of light is required, so your count of 96 is understandable.
So, a little more detail about my lighting design.
The maximum necessary light level would be about 80 foot candles for the 1400 sq ft of aisles and layout, which excludes my workshop area, or about 112,000 lumens.
50-70 foot candles may be enough, a few tests are in order.
112,000 lumens divided by the 1000 lumen output of the 6" LED downlights is 112 fixtures.
50 foot candles would be 70,000 lumens or 70 light fixtures.
From there I sat down with a copy of the track plan and located logical fixture locations using spacings of 3'-4', slightly larger spacing than we typically use over kitchen counters.
The result was 28 fixtures over aisles, 62 fixtures over the layout.
90 fixtures x 1000 lumens, 90,000 lumens or about 65 foot candles per sq foot.
Another consideration is eventual developement of night scene lighting, dimming all lighting but possibly leaving the aisles lit slightly brighter than the scene and add UV black light to the scene lighting? Lots of research to be done there yet, but again the flexibility of the installation would allow that to be added later.
The steel beams in the basement, and some pipes and wires that run along them, will be boxed in with wood bulkheads.
The workshop utility area wil not get ceiling tiles, too many pipes. Several 4' shop lights will be positioned as needed.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Calculations suggest about 28 lights over aisles and about 62 lights over the layout. Some tests will be in order to determine the best spacing for effective coverage. These lights are color adjustable and dimmable and are not much thicker than the ceiling tiles. Each light does have a power supply pack that will tuck up between the joists. Wow, 90 light fixtures! Before I built my new layout, I took down 12-48" fluorescent fixtures which lit my old layout. I then installed 53 traditional recessed "can" light fixtures across my 34' x 60' basement ceiling. 28 cans are installed above my L-shaped layout space covering a 25' x 42' portion of the basement. That number of cans is sufficient to light the layout without any shadows. My lighting consists of BR30-shaped LED floodlights. The brightness is 650 lumens, 65 watts, with energy consumption of 7 watts. The lighting appearance is 3000K soft white. Just thought I would mention those specs for comparative purposes. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Calculations suggest about 28 lights over aisles and about 62 lights over the layout. Some tests will be in order to determine the best spacing for effective coverage. These lights are color adjustable and dimmable and are not much thicker than the ceiling tiles. Each light does have a power supply pack that will tuck up between the joists.
Calculations suggest about 28 lights over aisles and about 62 lights over the layout. Some tests will be in order to determine the best spacing for effective coverage.
These lights are color adjustable and dimmable and are not much thicker than the ceiling tiles. Each light does have a power supply pack that will tuck up between the joists.
Wow, 90 light fixtures!
Before I built my new layout, I took down 12-48" fluorescent fixtures which lit my old layout. I then installed 53 traditional recessed "can" light fixtures across my 34' x 60' basement ceiling. 28 cans are installed above my L-shaped layout space covering a 25' x 42' portion of the basement. That number of cans is sufficient to light the layout without any shadows.
My lighting consists of BR30-shaped LED floodlights. The brightness is 650 lumens, 65 watts, with energy consumption of 7 watts. The lighting appearance is 3000K soft white.
Just thought I would mention those specs for comparative purposes.
Yes, some testing may reveal that I don't need that many, but I based the preliminary fixture layout on what we do for kitchen counters.
Rather than light the whole room with an evenly spaced grid, I plan to have the aisles on a separate circuit/switch and be able to control them separate from the the lights over the layout.
More later, got to run,
Before I built my new layout, I took down 12-48" fluorescent fixtures which lit my old layout. I then installed 53 traditional recessed "can" light fixtures across my 34' x 60' basement ceiling. 28 of those cans are installed above my L-shaped layout space covering a 25' x 42' portion of the basement. That number of cans is sufficient to light the layout without any shadows.
Hi Sheldon,
We used similar lights for our dining room/kitchen and we are very happy with them!
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
UPDATE:
As actual layout construction inches closer to a start date, I have settled on a ceiling and lighting solution.
Since I can easily relocate nearly everything that is below the floor joists in the layout area, I am going to use a grid system that attaches directly to the joists, like CeilingConnex or CeilingLink. Both seem to be less expensive, better and easier to use than CeilingMAX.
https://ceilingconnex.com/collections/ceiling-grid
https://www.ceilinglink.com/index.html
For lighting I have settled on 6" round recessed LED ultra thin down lights like these:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08QSHW9WP/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A61CMNCK0JTGW&psc=1
We have been using these lights extensively in peoples homes for the last several years and they are very nice and easy to install. And now the prices have come down considerably.
The low power consumption will mean easy wiring with just one or two circuits. And the simple install will allow them to be carefully postioned as needed.
More later,
Just wanted to add an enthusiastic vote that it I am really looking forward to seeing posts on the progress of your layout as well. Sounds like you are just about ready to start.
Hope you have the time to share your snags as well as your successes. I find posts of how people who overcame unforeseen obstacles really illuminating and helpful.
Good luck!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL OK, time for an update. Actual layout construction is getting close. Two things needed to happen before the layout could get underway, both are nearly done. One, we had one last rental property to rehab and sell. We had some "delays" in getting the tenant out..... It should go on the market next week after two months of part time rehab work in between other customer projects. Two, we are remodeling our "family" bathroom, which has been waiting 5 weeks for a custom made cultured marble shower pan, surround and vanity top. That was picked up last week, and installation has begun. Now that the rental property is complete and about to be on the market, the bathroom here can be moved to the top of the list and should only a take a few weeks to complete. The wife has been busy selling or giving away unwanted items previously stored in part of the layout space. More than 60% of the basement is now empty waiting for benchwork. Lumber prices expected to drop soon..... On another note, a recent layout article in "another" publication clearly illustrates my original discussion at the beginning of this thread - size vs complexity. This magnificent layout, when compared to my planned layout, clearly shows the difference between size and complexity. http://dpcw.borail.net/ David Park has created a layout that is actually very close to my theme and concept, set in the same geographic region, modeling two of the same railroads I model. David does not have the freelance component, but models the the B&O and WM in area I am very familiar with, not all that far from my home. And while my layout does not try to depict actual locations and David does, both layouts are effectively set in the same "location". So here is the thing, his layout space is actually slightly smaller than mine. But by taking a completely different approach to scenery and trackage, his layout is dramaticly more complex, and contains dramaticly more track and turnouts than my new layout will involve. This is not a bad thing, David has built a great layout. He even shares my interest in being able to run "display" trains. But it does require different compromises and different/more resources How did he make his layout so much more complex in less space? smaller aisles shallow around the walls benchwork with "backdrop" scenery even more hidden trackage and staging than me dramaticly less modeling of things not "near the tracks" a willingness to have smaller yards/shorter trains? David also clearly has a team of friends who have helped him. While I could recruit several fellow modelers to help me, and may do so at some point. I am more comfortable with the layout being mostly my own work. Found the article and his web site very interesting, maybe even got a few ideas, but happy to be building the simple version in the bigger space........ Sheldon
OK, time for an update.
Actual layout construction is getting close. Two things needed to happen before the layout could get underway, both are nearly done.
One, we had one last rental property to rehab and sell. We had some "delays" in getting the tenant out..... It should go on the market next week after two months of part time rehab work in between other customer projects.
Two, we are remodeling our "family" bathroom, which has been waiting 5 weeks for a custom made cultured marble shower pan, surround and vanity top. That was picked up last week, and installation has begun. Now that the rental property is complete and about to be on the market, the bathroom here can be moved to the top of the list and should only a take a few weeks to complete.
The wife has been busy selling or giving away unwanted items previously stored in part of the layout space. More than 60% of the basement is now empty waiting for benchwork.
Lumber prices expected to drop soon.....
On another note, a recent layout article in "another" publication clearly illustrates my original discussion at the beginning of this thread - size vs complexity.
This magnificent layout, when compared to my planned layout, clearly shows the difference between size and complexity.
http://dpcw.borail.net/
David Park has created a layout that is actually very close to my theme and concept, set in the same geographic region, modeling two of the same railroads I model. David does not have the freelance component, but models the the B&O and WM in area I am very familiar with, not all that far from my home.
And while my layout does not try to depict actual locations and David does, both layouts are effectively set in the same "location".
So here is the thing, his layout space is actually slightly smaller than mine. But by taking a completely different approach to scenery and trackage, his layout is dramaticly more complex, and contains dramaticly more track and turnouts than my new layout will involve.
This is not a bad thing, David has built a great layout. He even shares my interest in being able to run "display" trains. But it does require different compromises and different/more resources
How did he make his layout so much more complex in less space?
David also clearly has a team of friends who have helped him. While I could recruit several fellow modelers to help me, and may do so at some point. I am more comfortable with the layout being mostly my own work.
Found the article and his web site very interesting, maybe even got a few ideas, but happy to be building the simple version in the bigger space........
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Lumber prices expected to drop soon..... Boy-oh-boy do I hope you are right. Thanks for the update. -Kevin
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Lumber prices expected to drop soon.....
Boy-oh-boy do I hope you are right.
Thanks for the update.
ATLANTIC CENTRALLumber prices expected to drop soon.....
ATLANTIC CENTRALI have made some very small revisions to the track plan
ATLANTIC CENTRALMore importantly I have been analyzing the track plan for operational flaws and conformance with my original set of "givens and druthers".
Following the development of your track plan has been very interesting, particularly because I've been going through the same process with my own layout. I'm pretty happy with the basic track plan but I'm still finding ways to improve it.
The lighting discussion has been interesting too. I'm in a little different situation as far as lighting goes because my layout will be free standing, but I still plan on having dedicated lighting over the layout. What form that will take has yet to be decided.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Still working on the ceiling/lighting plan. Anxious to learn what you choose to do with the ceiling/lighting plan. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Still working on the ceiling/lighting plan.
Still working on the ceiling/lighting plan.
Anxious to learn what you choose to do with the ceiling/lighting plan.
I'm leaning toward the low clearance ceiling tile grid and flat panel 2x2 or 2x4 LED's. But to do that I need to do a ceiling tile layout and decide where to put the fixtures in advance. Which is ok, but I still have some concerns about light distribution. I may have to do some tests first.
So, I have made some very small revisions to the track plan, not sure if it is worth posting a different version.
More importantly I have been analyzing the track plan for operational flaws and conformance with my original set of "givens and druthers".
How close did I get.
I was easily able to keep all mainline curves at or above 36" radius, with most of them being more in the 40" range and above.
Two staging tracks did end up with 32" and 34" radius, being used for freight trains this will not be an issue in any way.
I was able to get the desired number of staged trains - just barely, and I had to make some of the under layout staging more complex than originally desired.
I have made a list of desired trains/motive power assignments and selected possible staging tracks for their operations.
I am still working on adding a few additional industries, but have been able to add a complete separate industrial area also removed from the mainline like the two original primary industrial areas.
Still working to add just a few more industries without too many needing to be serviced from the mainline. The current industry count is 14.
With a few minor adjustments I was able to increase the capacity of the piggyback yard to about 50 cars.
Still have lots of wide open scenery to figure out, construction of the first section will begin as soon as my bathroom home improvement project wraps up. I completed most of the plumbing replacement for the whole house last weekend.
More later.
tnd.rail Sheldon, Thanks for posting your track plan. I really like the design of the staging in the Cumberland Peninsula section. You are getting a lot bang for your buck with the curved staging and having the 3 tracks loop under and back to “H”. It is an excellent use of the space you allocated. I also like the the use of spiral tunnels to get additional mainline length. Mark
Sheldon, Thanks for posting your track plan. I really like the design of the staging in the Cumberland Peninsula section. You are getting a lot bang for your buck with the curved staging and having the 3 tracks loop under and back to “H”. It is an excellent use of the space you allocated. I also like the the use of spiral tunnels to get additional mainline length.
Mark
Thank you, glad you found it interesting. One of the very first bigger layouts I was exposed to used sidings located on a reverse loop for some of its staging.
People think staging is some new thing, that layout, and my first layout, which also had hidden staging sidings, were built in the 60's.