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Layout size - big vs complex - attempting to capture the immensity of the prototype

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, June 17, 2019 11:09 PM

Kevin, agreed, those locos have a good family look despite some differences.

I have most them in one form or another as well.

As a B&O modeler, I have EM-1's and have considered them for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL (ACR) as well.

The ACR has its version of the N&W Class A, with different tenders.

As well as Proto Y3 2-8-8-2's that have been convered to 2-8-8-0's in B&O tradition.

And as a C&O modeler, we have the Allegheny.....

The front air pumps are very much a C&O thing, other roads did it, but not to the degree of the C&O. If you don't like it, you don't like it, that's fine.

The B&O and C&O had lots of tunnel clearance problems. As boilers got bigger and locos longer, stuff hanging on the sides was a problem.

The B&O mounted a lot of air pumps on the pilot deck, and a few on the smokebox front, but the C&O liked the smokebox front. It has also been said that front mounted air pumps, smokebox or pilot deck, were used to balance weight and reduce slipping.

But the C&O loved those 2-6-6-2's for lots of reasons, so much so they bought the last 10 in 1949, the last mainline steam built by Baldwin.......one of which will be returning to steam soon.

And I love my little "baby" Mallets, both C&O and ACR.

Sheldon

 

  

    

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, June 17, 2019 5:51 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Kevin, As it turns out, at least of few of those NYC F12's made it into the early/mid 50's. What don't you like about the looks of these:

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Sheldon, The USRA 2-6-6-2 has the air pumps on the front of the boiler, which always looked wrong to me. Since I already have a B&O 2-8-8-4 as my only articulated, I have decided to use similar designs from Eastern lines for the remaining articulated locmotives.

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I think the N&W Class A, N&W Class Y6b, and B&O Class EM-1 all look very good next to one another. Also, they are all available undecoracted, have reputations as good runners, and can be found reasonably priced.

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SPSOT fan
Living overseas I am unable to build a layout for many reasons. When I visit the US I have all the right conditions to build a layout except enough time.

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Isaac, While I have been without a layout, I have been very happily occupied taking staged pictures on a 30" by 30" board for the "show me something" thread.

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This has almost become a hobby all in its own, and does not require much in space or resources.

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It keeps me active in the hobby and is a lot of fun.

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-Kevin

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Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by SPSOT fan on Monday, June 17, 2019 4:23 PM

Living overseas I am unable to build a layout for many reasons. When I visit the US I have all the right conditions to build a layout except enough time. Overseas, I lack the reasources (mainly a hobby shop) and know I will someday have to leave the layout behind, so I lack modivation and nothing happens, even with stuff I can do. And cost is always a concern...

Regards, Isaac

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Posted by carl425 on Monday, June 17, 2019 8:34 AM

At least you have a legitimate excuse.  I've had a "final" plan for almost 2 years and I'm about 75% finished with the basic benchwork.  I have nothing on which to blame my lack of progress except for procrastination.

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, June 17, 2019 6:43 AM

Once again... I sure feel your pain.

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Travelling for work so much this year has completely stopped my home remodel, and there is not any way the contruction of the STRATTON AND GILLETTE railroad will begin in January 2020 as planned.

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It looks like a 12 month delay.

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So sad.

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-Kevin

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Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, June 17, 2019 6:33 AM

So I just thought I would take a minute and update this thread.

A series of unexpected personal and work issues have slowed progress on the final version of the track plan and will no doubt delay the start of layout construction until fall.

More later,

Sheldon

    

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Saturday, February 9, 2019 10:46 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
slowed by a very busy work schedule.

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I can sing that same song along with you.

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-Kevin

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Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, February 9, 2019 10:32 AM

Medina1128

I feel lucky in that we live in a rarity; a duplex apartment with both a garage and a basement; with over 1100 sq. feet of space. Luckily, the furnace and hot water heater are situated under the stairs. 

 

I took a look at your photos, nice work. 

When you say duplex apartment I assume you mean two houses that share a common wall? They were once very common here, but the 1980's was about the last time they were popular as new construction.

1100 sq ft is a nice sized space, my new layout will be just over that in terms of actual space used by the layout.

The track plan is progressing well, but final drawings have been slowed by a very busy work schedule. 

The original list of goals for the layout have been achieved to about 90%, with only a few small compromises.

I am looking forward to sharing the track plan and getting everyones thoughts.

I have found a very interesting source for signal heads for the signal system, more on that later.

Staging capacity has exceeded expectations in number of trains.

I was not able to increase the minimum 36" radius in some places, but many curves are in the 42" to 46" range.

The visible main line run of double track is right at 200', the hidden staging loop run is about 140'.

There will be 30 hidden staging tracks that range from about 10' to 22' in length. Shorter staging tracks will generally be reserved for passenger trains.

There will be visible sidings that will plausibly stage two additional passenger trains and 3-5 more freight or passenger trains depending on the nature of the specific operational scheme in effect.

There will be two lift out/duck under sections. One to enter the layout, another to get from the layout area to my workshop area.

I am considering some sort of motorized lift for the main layout entrance, more on that later.

Overall, complexity of construction has been avoided, benchwork will mostly be simple table top, open grid with track elevations between 40" and 46" above the floor.

More to come,

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Medina1128 on Thursday, January 3, 2019 9:12 AM

I feel lucky in that we live in a rarity; a duplex apartment with both a garage and a basement; with over 1100 sq. feet of space. Luckily, the furnace and hot water heater are situated under the stairs. 

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Wednesday, January 2, 2019 4:11 PM

Kevin,

As it turns out, at least of few of those NYC F12's made it into the early/mid 50's.

B&O B-18's lasted until 1953.

PRR G-5's ran into the mid 50's

ACL - two of their K-15s 10 wheelers ran until 1955

Both 10 wheelers on the Ma & Pa ran until 1955

Just to name few.

What don't you like about the looks of these:

They are one of my favorite locos. The ATLANTIC CENTRAL has three, and I have two C&O versions as well.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by 7j43k on Wednesday, January 2, 2019 11:26 AM

Depends on the railroad.

The last working steam on the SP&S was 4-8-4's and 4-6-6-4's.  Around '55 and '56.

There's some shots of their last and biggest Challenger doing some interchange switching towards the end.

The SP&S got diesels to save money.  And the biggest money saving, for them, was in switching.  So they got switchers.  Then a few passenger diesels, probably because the GN told them to.  Then road switchers, because they could switch, and "road".

 

Ed

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Wednesday, January 2, 2019 7:26 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
On some roads yes. Ironicly, many 2-8-0's, 4-6-0's and 2-8-2's outlasted big modern steam.

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Tinplate Toddler
In my country, steam engines were built and put in service as late as 1959. However, one of the last ones to be taken out of service when steam traction ended were pre-WW I built 4-6-0 of a 1906 design

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I have put that thought into my locomotive roster. I am aware that some of the first steam locomotives to be retired were modern designs for several reasons.

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1) The high profile trains they were assigned to were among the first to be dieselized.

2) They were not suitable for low priority or local service.

3) The maintenance costs were much higher.

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The STRATTON & GILLETTE roster is mostly USRA desings, except for the articulateds. I do not like the look of the USRA 2-6-6-2, and not a huge fan of the 2-8-8-2.

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I was not aware that some 4-6-0 designs lasted that long. That is exciting for me because I have always loved the look of that NYC F12 4-6-0.

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-Kevin

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Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Wednesday, January 2, 2019 4:48 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Ironicly, many 2-8-0's, 4-6-0's and 2-8-2's outlasted big modern steam.

In my country, steam engines were built and put in service as late as 1959. However, one of the last ones to be taken out of service when steam traction ended were pre-WW I built 4-6-0 of a 1906 design and not the sleek-looking, much more efficient 2-6-2 which were supposed to replace them.

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Wednesday, January 2, 2019 4:15 AM

SeeYou190

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
a few 10 wheelers for that commuter when needed.

 

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Were 4-6-0 locomotives still being used on low priority passenger/mail/express trains in the mid 1950's?

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If so, I need to add one of these to my "must buy" list. There is a NYC prototype that has a hint of a USRA look to it that would look great with the rest of my roster.

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-Kevin

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On some roads yes. Ironicly, many 2-8-0's, 4-6-0's and 2-8-2's outlasted big modern steam.

And I agree, that is a good looking loco.

My track plan is coming along nicely, over the holiday I worked out few possible problems with excellent results. staging should now easily reach the 30 train mark and have easy access and easy construction.

More later,

Sheldon

    

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Tuesday, January 1, 2019 6:14 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
a few 10 wheelers for that commuter when needed.

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Were 4-6-0 locomotives still being used on low priority passenger/mail/express trains in the mid 1950's?

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If so, I need to add one of these to my "must buy" list. There is a NYC prototype that has a hint of a USRA look to it that would look great with the rest of my roster.

.

.

-Kevin

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Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, December 24, 2018 12:00 AM

Paul,

There will be indepth passenger operations.

There will be a small coach yard and service facilities.

The passenger station will be a thru station able to handle 3-4 trains without fouling the mainline.

Some trains will terminate/originate here, others will just swap cars, get power changes, etc, some will just make a stop.

There will also be commuter service to several nearby stations with doodle bugs and RDC's. The doodle bugs will run in pairs back to back. And the west bound commuter run can be run with steam as its last station stop is on a wye.

In addition to ATLANTIC CENTRAL trains, C&O, B&O and WM passenger trains will use the station via several interchange connections (some of which are the same direct cutoffs to the staging that create the four loop display mode).

I have a lot of passenger cars, about 200 or so. Counting the station tracks, I am hoping to stage at least 12 passenger trains, and most will be in the 10-15 car range.

Passenger power is mostly diesel, PA's, E units, FP's, but we still have some Mountains and Pacifics pulling lesser trains and mail runs, and a few 10 wheelers for that commuter when needed.

I have no fixed opinion on fast clocks, I have done a fair amount of both. That choice will evolve if and when a crew evolves. I know lots of people around here in the hobby, but I have not had time to stay active in the local round robin.

This move is part of a big life change for us that will allow me time for modeling, so I will see who is interested when the time comes.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Paul3 on Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:15 PM

Sheldon,
Designing layouts is fun, isn't it?  Especially with experience.

With your passenger ops, are you going to be doing terminal switching with them, or just running them as unit trains?

At my club, we kind of do both...it just depends on who is running the passenger terminal at the time.  When it's an experienced hand, they put the incoming trains away (coach yard, sleeper track, commissary, baggage/express) along with the power, and then dig out and make up new trains.  If it's an inexperienced operator, they'll attempt to turn the incoming trains around or just leave 'em for the next operator to turn.  We're on a fast clock at the club.

On my old home layout, I did a turn-based passenger ops where the passenger operator ran a dozen trains in order.  The first four trains were pre-staged, and each end of my layout had a number of stored cars.  After the first four trains, the operator had to make up the 5th train using some of the cars from the 2nd & 4th trains plus one or two of the stored cars.  The 6th train had to use cars from the 1st, 3rd, and 5th trains.  And so on.

And all this was completely prototypical as the New Haven used various pieces of equipment multiple times a day.  In fact, I used a NH consist book and a timetable to plan it all.  In real life, what was sent West on the "Merchants Limited" came back East later that night on the "Commander", etc. 

But no clocks.  On my layout, it took as long as it took.  Some of the guys at my club who were also operators on my layout want me to do the same thing at the club...but man, that'd be a lot of work.  I'd have to move everyone else's passenger equipment out of the terminals and bring in my own fleet of equipment...then put it all back when we're done.  Not sure I want to do that, but it was fun to operate like that.

I say all this because there aren't too many passenger operators.  And by that, I mean folks that switch around passenger trains and not simply use them as fast unit trains that zip from one end of the layout to the other, getting in the way of freight trains.  I was just curious which operation type you favored.

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Posted by hon30critter on Saturday, December 22, 2018 7:49 PM

Sheldon,

The layout sounds impressive! I'm sure that you and a lot of other people will get a lot of enjoyment out of it.

Dave

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Saturday, December 22, 2018 7:34 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
The layout will support a crew of about 10 for full blown operating sessions. BUT, it will also be easy to operate by just one person.

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That is interesting. My layout is planned to be easy for one operator to run, and also only one for a full blown operating session. 

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It is just for me.

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-Kevin

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Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, December 22, 2018 7:31 PM

hon30critter

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
But despite all that, work on the new track plan is coming along. 

 

Hi Sheldon,

Glad to hear that you are making progress. Your yard sounds impressive even if you have reduced the size a bit. I am a strong believer in having comfortable aisles. When I did the club's track plan I made sure there was plenty of aisle space and we are glad we did it. There is only one spot where people have to move to allow another person to get past. Of course, that's always where everybody stands!

Dave

 

Thanks Dave. The current plan for the yard will support the average train size, largest trains will have to be doubled in and out but the yard leads will easily support that.

About a third of the staging tracks should support trains larger than the yard.

Freight train lenghts to be in the 30 to 50 car range.

Two passenger train staging yards will support trains in the 12 to 15 range.  

Sheldon

    

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, December 22, 2018 7:25 PM

SeeYou190

How many operators do you anticipate needing to make the layout work?

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-Kevin

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The layout will support a crew of about 10 for full blown operating sessions. Operations will be adaptable to smaller available crew sizes.

Full blown operations will include a dispatcher and yard master. 

BUT, it will also be easy to operate by just one person.

The double track mainline will have cutoffs that convert it into four separate display loops.

The main yard connects directly to an industrial belt line without entering, crossing or fouling the mainline. This allows several operators to conduct switching operations and yard operations without disturbing mainline trains.

There will be hidden staging for at least 26 trains, possibly more.

So even a sole operator could put two trains on display (the four train display mode does partly tie up the yard) and then work the industries by himself.

Mainline trains can operate with a dispatcher or without the dispatcher via wireless throttles and local tower controls.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by hon30critter on Saturday, December 22, 2018 6:43 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
But despite all that, work on the new track plan is coming along. 

Hi Sheldon,

Glad to hear that you are making progress. Your yard sounds impressive even if you have reduced the size a bit. I am a strong believer in having comfortable aisles. When I did the club's track plan I made sure there was plenty of aisle space and we are glad we did it. There is only one spot where people have to move to allow another person to get past. Of course, that's always where everybody stands!

Dave

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Saturday, December 22, 2018 6:00 PM

How many operators do you anticipate needing to make the layout work?

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-Kevin

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Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, December 22, 2018 3:06 PM

OK, so we have had a lot going on, moving, getting the old house ready to sell, family stuff, and I have been busy at work, which has been made more complex by an exceptionaly high amount of rainfall this whole past year.

But despite all that, work on the new track plan is coming along. 

Again, the concept is already well established and not changing. I am simply finding the best way to fit it into the new space.

It quickly evolved to only two choices of benchwork configuration, one allows a slightly larger freight yard, one has much better "people flow" regarding the aisle ways.

The people flow won, the freight yard will still be 10 tracks and about 20' long.

With any luck, I will post a preliminary version of the track plan in about a week.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by 7j43k on Sunday, November 4, 2018 5:41 PM

agrasyuk
i was exploring posibilities to sue that dude for damages, but couldn't locate.

You are supposed to sue the bank.  The bank sold you a defective product.  You have proof, because you made careful documentation of the problem and what you were forced to do to fix it.  I presume you can find the bank.

I was going to sue a bank.  Had my lawyer start working.  They settled for all the money I was asking for.  Right away.  GOOD lawyer!

 

...you will have an edge on any plumber if only for one reason - unlike hired plumber you actually CARE to do a good job.

 

 

I guess you and I travel in different circles.  I prefer mine: 

I actually know people who take pride in their work.  They CARE to do a good job.  Even when they are working for someone else.

 

Also, CARING to do a good job doesn't mean you will do a good job.  Knowing what you are doing also is quite helpful.  Or so I've observed.

 

I did a small bit of home repair for a bank.  What I found is that they just wanted someone they could trust to make the problem go away.  And not come back.  The pay was actually quite good.  And they didn't constantly question me about what I was doing.

Maybe after you sue the bank for damages they might revise their hire-the-cheapest-guy approach.  Because he won't be the cheapest, after you're done.

 

 

Ed

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, November 4, 2018 4:06 PM

carl425

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
As a construction professional myself, l will say this. You get what you pay for.

 

As a customer of construction professionals, I've found I've had to modify this advice.  You don't always get what you pay for, but you never get what you don't pay for.

 

There are bad apples in every industry...

 

    

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Posted by ROBERT PETRICK on Sunday, November 4, 2018 12:49 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Also, as a real estate investor myself, I NEVER want sellers to fix stuff, they too are motovated to hire the cheapest guy and do the minimum to get by.

Sheldon

Agree 100%.

When I was looking for a house and the ad said or the real estate agent said anything along the lines of "Finished basement", or "New paint and carpet throughout" . . . no thanks, pass. I wanted to see what the bare naked unadorned space looked like.

Robert 

LINK to SNSR Blog


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Posted by carl425 on Sunday, November 4, 2018 12:45 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
As a construction professional myself, l will say this. You get what you pay for.

As a customer of construction professionals, I've found I've had to modify this advice.  You don't always get what you pay for, but you never get what you don't pay for.

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, November 4, 2018 12:39 PM

agrasyuk

 

 
Doughless

Same here.  I can install outlets and light switches, but I call a plumber for plumbing.

 

"want it done right - do it yourself" at least in my case always proved true. i suppose such thing as responsible professionals does happen in nanture, but so far i have quite a bad luck (i only know of HVAC guy)

we purchased our abandoned for 4 years home from bank. Bank hired plumber to fix the leaks from burst frozen pipes. what can i say, it takes baker to properly bake bread, it takes computer software developer to properly instal plumbing. i have no good words for that "professional", as i ended up removing at least 25% of drywalls to get to the supossedly fixed leaks. it was madening task, i was exploring posibilities to sue that dude for damages, but couldn't locate.

my point - soldering pipes is not a rocket science. practice for a bit and you will have an edge on any plumber if only for one reason - unlike hired plumber you actually CARE to do a good job.

 

As a construction professional myself, l will say this.

You get what you pay for. If you hire the cheapest guy...........

Banks with foreclosures hire the cheapest guy.........

Also, as a real estate investor myself, I NEVER want sellers to fix stuff, they too are motovated to hire the cheapest guy and do the minimum to get by.

Sheldon

    

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