You know, when Linn Westcott (long time editor of MR, and even longer time associate and assistant of Al Kalmbach at KalPubCo) retired, he told Russ Larson that when he became editor around 1960 he thought the hobby had only about 15 more years to go.
Lance Mindheim is a fine enough modeler that any thought he cares to express about the present state or future of the hobby is certainly worth hearing out. But most predictions of the future - even the fairly recent future - are nonetheless pure opinions and as with any opinions, one can like 'em or lump 'em.
Seems to me there is a bit much heavy breathing gone on here in this particular thread, but that is just my reaction (so, see above).
Dave Nelson
Thanks for making that clear, Doughless. I see we are adrift...which is typical when the topic becomes impregnated with personal variance and exceptions.
selector I'm just going to make one comment and then continue to read. I don't know if Mr. Mindheim actually made a categorical proposition of the variety, "All X are Y" in his article, but if he did, it invites disagreement. We're not all the same. As indicated in at least two replies from two different posters already, at least two of 'us' live in Victorian era homes, and at least one of them is very close to tracks that have doubltessly been there for over 130 years. I would have nodded were I to have read, "A Victorian era house is out of place on my layout. None exist in the location I am representing on my layout at present, and haven't for about 30 years."
I'm just going to make one comment and then continue to read.
I don't know if Mr. Mindheim actually made a categorical proposition of the variety, "All X are Y" in his article, but if he did, it invites disagreement. We're not all the same. As indicated in at least two replies from two different posters already, at least two of 'us' live in Victorian era homes, and at least one of them is very close to tracks that have doubltessly been there for over 130 years. I would have nodded were I to have read, "A Victorian era house is out of place on my layout. None exist in the location I am representing on my layout at present, and haven't for about 30 years."
The exact quote from the article (we're OT now talking about the March article and not this month's article which is the subject of the thread)
"It's also important to focus on ordinary structures rather than the extra ordinary, or cute, ones. For example, rather than modeling a candy factory, a pickle factory, and a Victorian mansion; model a fuel dealer, a non-rail served industry, and a few one-story clapboard homes, as shown in Fig 3." (which also show a haunted house, a saloon (old west?) and ice cream stand and a park (with an octagonal bandstand near the edge of the park)
This has gotten interpreted as the author saying that Victorian mansions aren't/weren't near railroad tracks.
And in the context of the article, that quote is preceded by the concept that scene composition is a major component of a realistic scene moreso than the (expensive) superdetailed items within the scene...and... that there is a tendency to "drift" towards acquiring structures based upon how they look individually, then later putting them together to make a scene; rather than acquiring buildings to fit an overall theme.
- Douglas
Paul3 The odd thing with the latest article telling us that Victorian homes are unrealistic is that I live in a Victorian home (1890) near the tracks (when the leaves are down, I can see the trains go by). But if that's not close enough, at the old train station just up the road from my house is a Victorian mansion (complete w/ turret and conical roof) that not only faces the track, it is so close that if you slipped going down their front steps you may get run over by the Acela. WRT unrealistic bandstands and parks, over in Warren, MA there's an H.H. Richardson granite block station next to the town green that has a bandstand. In Mansfield, MA, there's a station, a town green, and another bandstand. I guess Lance Mindheim has never been to New England? Edit:Doughless,Um, that's exactly what he said. By saying that Victorian homes and bandstands are unrealistic, he's saying not to use them. If you do, you're not being realistic, according to Lance. You're modeling an "amusement park" as compared to copy of an actual railroad scene. He's pretty clear about it. He's also dead wrong as there are plenty of Victorian homes up here in Massachusetts today, some are right near the tracks. And yes, they don't always face the road but the tracks.
The odd thing with the latest article telling us that Victorian homes are unrealistic is that I live in a Victorian home (1890) near the tracks (when the leaves are down, I can see the trains go by). But if that's not close enough, at the old train station just up the road from my house is a Victorian mansion (complete w/ turret and conical roof) that not only faces the track, it is so close that if you slipped going down their front steps you may get run over by the Acela.
WRT unrealistic bandstands and parks, over in Warren, MA there's an H.H. Richardson granite block station next to the town green that has a bandstand. In Mansfield, MA, there's a station, a town green, and another bandstand. I guess Lance Mindheim has never been to New England?
Edit:Doughless,Um, that's exactly what he said. By saying that Victorian homes and bandstands are unrealistic, he's saying not to use them. If you do, you're not being realistic, according to Lance. You're modeling an "amusement park" as compared to copy of an actual railroad scene. He's pretty clear about it. He's also dead wrong as there are plenty of Victorian homes up here in Massachusetts today, some are right near the tracks. And yes, they don't always face the road but the tracks.
Just like here in the Mid Atlantic........
Sheldon
Neil B. Guys, Please, please: there is no conspiracy at MR. It seems more likely that most contributors to MR need to tend to bend towards new products and new product development to keep the ads flowing...which I understand and have no problem with...and it was simply Lance's turn. The major train manufacturers don't sell HO battery trains and headsets. Lance did not write the story to sell more ads in the magazine. Of course most MR stories deal with new or newer products - why wouldn't they? Neil Besougloff, MR editor
Guys,
Please, please: there is no conspiracy at MR.
It seems more likely that most contributors to MR need to tend to bend towards new products and new product development to keep the ads flowing...which I understand and have no problem with...and it was simply Lance's turn.
The major train manufacturers don't sell HO battery trains and headsets. Lance did not write the story to sell more ads in the magazine. Of course most MR stories deal with new or newer products - why wouldn't they?
Neil Besougloff, MR editor
I wasn't seriously suggesting any conspiracy.
I was merely pointing out it seemed odd that the guy who builds layouts that would operate fine with two wires in DC, and uses a 15 year old non DCC ready locomotive in his publshed photos, would be the same guy who would be worried about the next technological step in model locomotive power.
So when people are suggesting that he is trying to get others to confomr to some sort of new-age philosophy, his actions certainly wouldn't suggest it.
Nope. Your're reading into it.
Your example of a victorian home and depot, in its fancy glory, are close to each other...suggesting a concentration of commercial buildings where there is a lot of foot traffic. Yes, that example is all over America, then and now. Lots of foot traffic incent businesses to build their buildings fancy, and homeowners to build their houses fancy, to show them off.
Figure 3 is not meant to be a place where there is a lot of people foot traffic. Its not the place in town where the busy tracks drop off a bunch of passengers, or where customers park their cars now, to be attracted by the towns glorious buildings...even if its just a few of them in a small town. In the previous thread, those were the examples used to criticize the article. The pictures in the article show clearly what part of town he is modeling and its not the part of town people were using as examples.
BTW, the bandstand in Figure 3 is eight sided. Why do bandstands have 8 sides? Its so when its built IN THE MIDDLE of the park, all 360 degrees have a face. In figure 3 at least 3 sides are near the tracks, with no space for people to sit, and those sides face a factory. The placement of the bandstand in figure 3 is totally unrealistic. In that spot, the bandstand would be rectangular, like a stage. Its placement in that scene is a reflection of someone buying the bandstand and wanting it on the layout because it was cute. That's okay if you're into that.
I guess its a matter of seeing details, rivet counting in our own way. Myself, stuff like that sticks out to me.
OTOH, things like the nose curvature or windshield size of an Athearn BB F7, I can't see even when someone spoon feeds me the problems.
ATLANTIC CENTRALIt has taken 25 years for DCC to reach a 50% market penitration in HO & N. Direct radio and or dead rail has a pretty tough up hill battle.
Not to count the the 30 years that command control kicked around before the standards were developed.
I seriously doubt that battery power will occupy anything other than a niche in the market. It doesn't add anything new in capability. The only problem it solves is for folks whose model railroad operates in harsh conditions. Otherwise all it does is relieve you from some pretty simple wiring. And you have all the inconvenience of battery power.
Sure, it's a fun new thing and I might get one or two myself down the road just to play with. But my layouts will continue to be DCC, DC, and AC (I run some 3 rail just for fun)
Paul
BRAKIEI bought XTech rechargeable
xtech rechargeable. BAM. The future of model railroading
xtech rechargeable. BAM. The future of model railroading.
(Dustin Coughman quote from the movie Trainman)
Neil B.The major train manufacturers don't sell HO battery trains and headsets. Lance did not write the story to sell more ads in the magazine. Of course most MR stories deal with new or newer products - why wouldn't they?
Neil,If the manufacturers could come up with a wireless headset for the current sound systems I would be interested.
Some of us likes new gadgets.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL Lance seems to be amoug a group that would like to think they can reshape the hobby in their own image, example, the thread about his last article and structure selections. Sheldon Sheldon, IMO, that thread about the last Mindheim article was off base in many ways. The article was mainly about how to build a scene, not really even about trains. He is known for his realistic representations of places that exist today, or in the near past. And many people want to learn more about how to achieve more realism in their scenes. I don't think he was telling people who may not care about it that much, that they should care about it more. I think his article about using lots of white/off white paint for structures, building the boring and not the eleborate, cropping a scene instead of compressing a scene, etc. all help to make the total layout LOOK more realisitic. I think that is a major goal for many in the hobby. And as I said earlier, the photos of his layouts usually include a locomotive that is a nonDCC ready Proto 2000 CSX GP38-2 that Walthers stopped making 15 years ago, albeit updated for dcc ditchlights and possibly sound, which would be consistent with accurately representing a railroad scene. He doesn't strike me as the type of modeler who is inherently concerned about manufacturers technological innovations in motivating a locomotive down the rails. It seems more likely that most contributors to MR need to tend to bend towards new products and new product development to keep the ads flowing...which I understand and have no problem with...and it was simply Lance's turn. I read that article rather carefully. If you are correct, Lance FAILED to convey the point that he was refering to modeling "present day". This hobby has a long rich history of modeling times past as well as present day, and there are still beautiful Victorian houses near train tracks today. I could send you a large photo album......again he failed to make his point effectively. It was a less than well thought out example, or Lance needs to get out more and come up here to northeastern Maryland. Sheldon
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL Lance seems to be amoug a group that would like to think they can reshape the hobby in their own image, example, the thread about his last article and structure selections. Sheldon Sheldon, IMO, that thread about the last Mindheim article was off base in many ways. The article was mainly about how to build a scene, not really even about trains. He is known for his realistic representations of places that exist today, or in the near past. And many people want to learn more about how to achieve more realism in their scenes. I don't think he was telling people who may not care about it that much, that they should care about it more. I think his article about using lots of white/off white paint for structures, building the boring and not the eleborate, cropping a scene instead of compressing a scene, etc. all help to make the total layout LOOK more realisitic. I think that is a major goal for many in the hobby. And as I said earlier, the photos of his layouts usually include a locomotive that is a nonDCC ready Proto 2000 CSX GP38-2 that Walthers stopped making 15 years ago, albeit updated for dcc ditchlights and possibly sound, which would be consistent with accurately representing a railroad scene. He doesn't strike me as the type of modeler who is inherently concerned about manufacturers technological innovations in motivating a locomotive down the rails. It seems more likely that most contributors to MR need to tend to bend towards new products and new product development to keep the ads flowing...which I understand and have no problem with...and it was simply Lance's turn.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Lance seems to be amoug a group that would like to think they can reshape the hobby in their own image, example, the thread about his last article and structure selections. Sheldon
Lance seems to be amoug a group that would like to think they can reshape the hobby in their own image, example, the thread about his last article and structure selections.
Sheldon,
IMO, that thread about the last Mindheim article was off base in many ways. The article was mainly about how to build a scene, not really even about trains. He is known for his realistic representations of places that exist today, or in the near past. And many people want to learn more about how to achieve more realism in their scenes. I don't think he was telling people who may not care about it that much, that they should care about it more.
I think his article about using lots of white/off white paint for structures, building the boring and not the eleborate, cropping a scene instead of compressing a scene, etc. all help to make the total layout LOOK more realisitic. I think that is a major goal for many in the hobby.
And as I said earlier, the photos of his layouts usually include a locomotive that is a nonDCC ready Proto 2000 CSX GP38-2 that Walthers stopped making 15 years ago, albeit updated for dcc ditchlights and possibly sound, which would be consistent with accurately representing a railroad scene. He doesn't strike me as the type of modeler who is inherently concerned about manufacturers technological innovations in motivating a locomotive down the rails.
I read that article rather carefully. If you are correct, Lance FAILED to convey the point that he was refering to modeling "present day".
This hobby has a long rich history of modeling times past as well as present day, and there are still beautiful Victorian houses near train tracks today. I could send you a large photo album......again he failed to make his point effectively. It was a less than well thought out example, or Lance needs to get out more and come up here to northeastern Maryland.
NE MD shouldn't be too far away. I understand he lives in Silver Spring.
I don't see where he failed anything. I think people read something into it that wasn't there, then got offended.
The article never said don't place Victorian houses next to the tracks. Other people said that's what he said...or a saloon, or a park with a bandstand.
Figure 3 is just an illustration of the points he was making. He's talking about buildings that are interesting, even cute, by themselves, and using a lot of them to build a scene of a nondescript rural area. (As well as the retail buildings wrongly being oriented to the tracks instead of the diagonal road.)
Figure 14, talking about paint colors, shows a 1940's era pickup truck, so the concept of using more whites and faded colors for buildings was not written as just a present day modeling thing.
mlehman ATLANTIC CENTRAL If Lance thinks most modelers are going to wear headphones to run trains, I think he is off the mark.....by a good distance. Sheldon, Actually, for a guy that isn't all that enamored of sound on the layout because of its inherent physical limiations, I would have thought you'd get this. Sure, headphones aren't as good as honking big speaker stacks and an amp bodacious enough you have no need to turn on the heat at home so long as you're listening to the tunes. But they're a much better user experience in terms of sound alone, especially the low end, than what people can manage to coax out of those tiny speakers and amps they squeeze into locos nowadays. If nothing else, you'd not have to listen to anyone else's annoying sound when operating around them, right? Just trying to see the bright side here.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL If Lance thinks most modelers are going to wear headphones to run trains, I think he is off the mark.....by a good distance.
Actually, for a guy that isn't all that enamored of sound on the layout because of its inherent physical limiations, I would have thought you'd get this.
Sure, headphones aren't as good as honking big speaker stacks and an amp bodacious enough you have no need to turn on the heat at home so long as you're listening to the tunes. But they're a much better user experience in terms of sound alone, especially the low end, than what people can manage to coax out of those tiny speakers and amps they squeeze into locos nowadays.
If nothing else, you'd not have to listen to anyone else's annoying sound when operating around them, right?
Just trying to see the bright side here.
Mike, not only do I get it, I have figured out how to do it in DC with my advanced cab control using Dallee sound boards - local speakers or wireless headphones. Figured that out 5-6 years ago........
But it is just not worth the trouble or money.
If I really wanted sound, and the rest of that "intimate" experiance of pretending to be the engineer, I would simply be in a larger scale, like G or at least 1/4" two rail.
I don't walk around with ear buds and a phone full of music. I don't listen to my 1700 vinyl records with headphones, it is just a non starter for me.
Neil Besougloff
editor, Model Railroader magazine
BMMECNYC mbinsewi That's it, I'm going to "No Rail". Maybe join one of those modular clubs. Mike. We had a April fools day module standard for railtrail modeling.
mbinsewi That's it, I'm going to "No Rail". Maybe join one of those modular clubs. Mike.
That's it, I'm going to "No Rail". Maybe join one of those modular clubs.
Mike.
We had a April fools day module standard for railtrail modeling.
I always like that cartoon in MR about old Clem getting a hobby according to his wife. He models a abandon railroad.
Dead rail can be done but,I doubt if we ever see it replace DC or DCC.
A charging track would recharge the batteries as needed very similar to Play Station 3 battery charging system.You plug the charging cord into a port and the end goes into the PS-3 controller to charge the battery.. In our case you plug the end into a charging track port and the other into a charging device.
Im just jesting here to add a little levity to the thread.....
I havent gotten this issue yet and thus havent read the article but was solar powered locos mentioned?
Scale sized solar panels could only enhance the looks of a third+ generation diesel.
I cant ever imagine a time, past, present, or future where trains need to be battery operated unless one of the towns on your layout passed a smoke ordinance.
Concerning what the wife should do with your trains after your gone... and EBay isnt a bad idea. Has anyone ever considered donating them to your Historical Society? Or even a club type operation?
I was thinking if they blow the big horn on me before I get that pie in the sky retirement layout built, what I had still new in the box (prolly 80% of what I have now) I would donate to my HS.
Let them sell them and take the proceeds to benefit the society more. There are no PERE MARQUETTE clubs out there so thats kinda out. There are some of us that have quite a bit of stuff. Could make an EBay project turn into a nightmare.
Just a couple whimsicle ideas.
mlehmanMaybe you've just not been stocking up like the rest of us, thus your concerns over this matter? You just gotta get out and buy more stuff you'll have a use for...someday.
Working on it...
ATLANTIC CENTRALLance seems to be amoug a group that would like to think they can reshape the hobby in their own image
I agree completely.
I also can't believe he's blaming us for our complacency holding the hobby back from evolving into his vision for the future.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
As far as "the future of the hobby," there is an event coming up in the next 5 to 10 years that will have a tremendous impact, and nobody's talking about it.By that time, the last of the Baby Boomers will have retired.
The last 20 years of this hobby have paralled the Baby Boomers in the "Empty Nest" phase; the kids are all on their own, the mortgage is paid, the dog is dead, and the parents are at the peak of their career and earning power. That's why we've seen the market go the way it has.So, when the Baby Boomers, that large demographic -- and monetary -- lump, are all on a fixed income, I predict that the volume of dollars spent on this hobby is going to shrink drastically.
Expect a lot more kits to return. We may even possibly see the return of MR's "Dollar Model."
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Wow, this really is a tempest in a pee pot.Also, I don't have the April issue yet, but if people are interpreting this article as badly as they interpreted Lance's articles on scene composition, it should be interesting.
Also, some people need to get off the Net and stop reading conspiracy theory sites.
BMMECNYC mlehman What always strikes me is how some of us who'll likely not be around in 20 years anyway seem to care about it most. I plan on being here in at least 45 years.
mlehman What always strikes me is how some of us who'll likely not be around in 20 years anyway seem to care about it most.
I plan on being here in at least 45 years.
Ahh, a youngun
I suspect that stocks on ebay are still deep enough to supply your needs. Remember all those "little hobby shops" people have tucked away? Those widows know nowhere else to dispose of it. I've let my wife know the 'bay will be her friend after I'm gone. Maybe you've just not been stocking up like the rest of us, thus your concerns over this matter? You just gotta get out and buy more stuff you'll have a use for...someday.
Just kidding here. I think it will be at least 46 years before you only get the "batteries only" no-choice in a product offering. If you get beyond worrying about what you can buy and think more along the lines of what you can build, you'll be OK here...unless you're in Z scale
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
ATLANTIC CENTRALIf Lance thinks most modelers are going to wear headphones to run trains, I think he is off the mark.....by a good distance.
SouthPennAny control system start-up wll need to target younger model railroaders, but there is are very limited numbers of them, or so it seems.
I am one of those (relatively) younger modelers. DCC is adequate for my needs. It costs between $20-40 to convert a DC locomotive to DCC.
My You Tube
I have a modest size layout. I have 50+ locomotives that are DCC. Maybe another 15 that will never be DCC. It took me 10-12 years to convert my locomotives to DCC. I run a few locomotives with RailPro.
I am retired, on a fixed income, and I will not be converting to any other control system, ever. Judging from the model railroaders I see at train shows, the majority of model railroaders are in the same position I am in.
Any control system start-up wll need to target younger model railroaders, but there is are very limited numbers of them, or so it seems.
Besides, with todays battery technology I don't want my favorite locomotives bursting into flames.
rrebell One note, batterys come into full vouge when you have a large layout with lots of ladders and sidings. Cleaning track on the mainline or a siding or two is no big deal, cleaning track on a large layout with 50 or more turnouts, some on setouts only a foot or two long can be a real chore along with maintaining electrical contacts needed at turnouts etc.
One note, batterys come into full vouge when you have a large layout with lots of ladders and sidings. Cleaning track on the mainline or a siding or two is no big deal, cleaning track on a large layout with 50 or more turnouts, some on setouts only a foot or two long can be a real chore along with maintaining electrical contacts needed at turnouts etc.
And this is why I understand the OPs concern:
As a person who models only branch/short lines, ala Lance Mindheim, I find that many of the issues that are discussed about the hobby do not cater to my interests.
The hobby is dominated...at least from a discussion standpoint and seemingly a product development standpoint...by people who model a large railroad, with lots of locos, rolling stock, turnouts, track, wiring, power districts, etc. Guys like me don't relate to the issues those guys have. I suppose the same frustration can be found in people who model lesser Class 1s, like a Frisco, then an NYC.
Understandably, those hobbyists need more stuff, and buy more stuff. So they tend to drive the product development.
Guys like me are left to buy what the other guys want produced. So if the big railroaders want battery, I will likely have to buy battery, (if I live long enough and want to buy new stuff)
Slightly different take on the same issue, and I've said this before: I'm looking for a company to produce a generic GP9, highly detailed, but with fore and aft operating ditchlights for modelers who model branch/shortlines post 1996. But data must be showing Athearn that there are more modelers wanting to model the PRR in the 10 years from 1954 to 1964 then there are people wanting to model any freelanced shortline in the 20 years from 1996 to 2016. I think otherwise, but what do I know, other than if I want to buy a new GP9 for a modern shortline, any new model produced by any one of the myriad of GP9 model producers will look like a 1954 version.
Big railroaders with many needs tend to drive the market, so I can see the OPs concern if his interest lie outside the lines of what the high volume buyers want.
I might be Lance's worst nightmare. My future is actually reverting back to plain DC.
I run one HO brass steam engine at a time over a modest 1.3 scale mile single track mainline. There are 5 manual throw Peco turnouts on the whole layout, for 3 sidings.
Although I am able to operate DCC equipped engines using the MRC Sound Controller 2.0, none of my current brass models is equipped with DCC at all, and only two BLI brass hybrids are. (One is brand new in box, untested, and may yet be sold to upgrade to a "better" brass steamer).
Even many of the post-2010 production brass steam locomotive models only come equipped with plain DC and lights. Though the brass importers are now in the process of making the switch to DCC for the latest production models, most of the ones available in the current marketplace, brand new though perhaps 5 to 10 years old, are plain DC.
I'm not going to sell what I have and replace them with the latest technology when they perform wonderfully well in plain DC. I'm also not going to tear into and modify engines that cost me plenty.
John