PRR8259 ATLANTIC CENTRAL PRR8259 Well my Walthers Proto heavy 2-10-2 had very cheap valve gear that buckled too easily at less than 45 minutes run time when a screw backed out. Selling dealer repaired but it was no good and didnt work properly. Walthers did replace with a new one which I sold immediately. I did not trust that model enough to try the second one. I really wanted the C&S engine and was very disappointed, and it was not running very fast at all when the valve gear buckled...I just couldnt tell what had happened...till it was too late...Lost $200 dumping the replacement because they were hard to sell. Come to think of it, most brass models held their value much much better than that for me. Brass fans tell me I am much better off with the more costly brass steamers. The newer ones are very good though also costly but I get what I pay for. John, do you mean to imply you have never had a problem with a brass loco? ...Well, John, you seem to be the lone unhappy Proto steam customer. Sheldon Sheldon-- I didn't say that and will explain, but first--there were many people comparatively singing the praises of how great Proto steam is and has been, etc. There are actually some people who were not totally happy with it. I just happen to be the one to actually post something. The 2-10-2 was fussy, and did not work correctly after a pro even fixed it...not some yahoo repair man like myself. The pro tech's opinion was that it was "not a very good" mechanism. He repairs trains all day every day for a good train store. Perhaps he is biased in favor of more robust trains like S and O scale. Regarding brass, actually I had two notably bad experiences in the last 25 years and both were due not to an inherent fault in the engine, but the way someone had worked on said brass engine. In one case, a horrible paint job was done that looked pretty good, but the person who re-assembled it (the previous owner did the paint) made some key mistakes such that the model ran poorly and had shorts. It looked as if it was painted only to sit on a shelf ie paint on body and on tender truck bolsters is unacceptable for electrical conductivity. In the other case someone had disassembled a precision scale articulated and left out a very important part: a special spring loaded roller assembly that kept the boiler up off the front engine, but also put weight on the front engine. Uncle Dave's Brass was able to get a replacement part from Precision Scale in that case. There are of course older brass models out there that have some significant issues--those I avoid and don't even look at. The new stuff, recent years production, runs amazingly well right out of the box--virtually flawlessly--with lights, functioning class lights--even now dcc on some of it. However, they are legitimately rare items, and one can expect to pay a significant sum. With stainless steel tires--they don't show wear even after use. The newer high-priced models will hold their value, if/when I want to sell a couple to help my kids pay for college or for whatever reason. I am not talking about the average 40 year old Samhongsa or Ajin production, at all. Some folks love the Proto 2000 steamers, while others have legitimate concerns regarding not being able to get parts out of Walthers (on other forums that has been an ongoing topic). I just can't pretend that all is sunshine and rainbows all the time. And yes, even with brass, buyer beware or be able to fix or have competent tech, because it isn't always perfect either. It's also fair to say on my modest layout that whatever is running is only lightly taxed by modest train lengths.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL PRR8259 Well my Walthers Proto heavy 2-10-2 had very cheap valve gear that buckled too easily at less than 45 minutes run time when a screw backed out. Selling dealer repaired but it was no good and didnt work properly. Walthers did replace with a new one which I sold immediately. I did not trust that model enough to try the second one. I really wanted the C&S engine and was very disappointed, and it was not running very fast at all when the valve gear buckled...I just couldnt tell what had happened...till it was too late...Lost $200 dumping the replacement because they were hard to sell. Come to think of it, most brass models held their value much much better than that for me. Brass fans tell me I am much better off with the more costly brass steamers. The newer ones are very good though also costly but I get what I pay for. John, do you mean to imply you have never had a problem with a brass loco? ...Well, John, you seem to be the lone unhappy Proto steam customer. Sheldon
PRR8259 Well my Walthers Proto heavy 2-10-2 had very cheap valve gear that buckled too easily at less than 45 minutes run time when a screw backed out. Selling dealer repaired but it was no good and didnt work properly. Walthers did replace with a new one which I sold immediately. I did not trust that model enough to try the second one. I really wanted the C&S engine and was very disappointed, and it was not running very fast at all when the valve gear buckled...I just couldnt tell what had happened...till it was too late...Lost $200 dumping the replacement because they were hard to sell. Come to think of it, most brass models held their value much much better than that for me. Brass fans tell me I am much better off with the more costly brass steamers. The newer ones are very good though also costly but I get what I pay for.
Well my Walthers Proto heavy 2-10-2 had very cheap valve gear that buckled too easily at less than 45 minutes run time when a screw backed out. Selling dealer repaired but it was no good and didnt work properly. Walthers did replace with a new one which I sold immediately. I did not trust that model enough to try the second one. I really wanted the C&S engine and was very disappointed, and it was not running very fast at all when the valve gear buckled...I just couldnt tell what had happened...till it was too late...Lost $200 dumping the replacement because they were hard to sell. Come to think of it, most brass models held their value much much better than that for me.
Brass fans tell me I am much better off with the more costly brass steamers. The newer ones are very good though also costly but I get what I pay for.
John, do you mean to imply you have never had a problem with a brass loco?
...Well, John, you seem to be the lone unhappy Proto steam customer.
Sheldon
John, I only have few thoughts, the whole parts thing stinks with all this new product.
If I needed my hobby purchases to hold their value, I would never be in this hobby.
The money that I actually want to invest is in real estate.......
Paul3 Sheldon,The generic USRA BLI locos are also $50 cheaper than the USRA Spectrums (sound for sound).
Sheldon,The generic USRA BLI locos are also $50 cheaper than the USRA Spectrums (sound for sound).
Retail maybe, but Bachmann street prices are always lower than BLI street prices - different wholesale discount structure.....
A quick survey of new items on Ebay put BLI and Bachmann Mikes at aboutthe same prices, with Bachmann averaging slightly lower......
Rich, that is the question after all. Considering they never were a big player in the market, and considering the abundance of steam product on the market, they may be devoting more of their production to the products that demand more supply. Just speculation of course.
Many people thought that Kato was out of the HO market, and then they release another updated run of the GP35 after quite a few years. So who knows, maybe Walthers just feels there are enough 0-8-0s and 0-6-0s out there for a while.
- Douglas
Honestly, Why would any manufaturer make a new plastic steam locomotive? There are plenty of the basic models available in plastic, and good running pre-owned brass models are abundent and affordable.
.
I only own one plastic steamer, a Bachmann EM1 2-8-8-4. It is a maginificent machine, a true beauty. I have three Sunset heavy USRA mikados, they are also wonderful, and I paid about the same as the Bachmann plastic loco.
As long as brass is available and serviceable, I see no need for much more (if any) more plastic steam. I would much rather see more high quality plastic freight car kits.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Paul, I don't have the time to go model for model through the whole list, but for example:
New Bachmann 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 vs BLI, while not all perfect Bachmann has several different tenders, headlight locations, tender trucks, trailing trucks - BLI, one size fits all.
Bachmann 2-8-4 vs MTH, Bachmann has pretty decent road specific details, correct domes, tender sizes for C&O, NKP, PM, and easily kit bashed into VIRGINIAN - MTH one size fits all.
Bachmann Mountains, light and heavy, not every roadname completely correctly detailed or correct for the loco, but lot of versions, most close or very representitive, some VERY accurate.
I could go on.....
Thanks, Tom.
Rich
Alton Junction
Rich,
I guess it depends how you want to define "nothing". I know that Walthers re-released the 0-8-0 and 0-6-0 switchers (w/ & w/o Tsunami decoders) and perhaps a few of the other LL Proto 2000s, as well. I don't think they released any new versions of steam after the acquisition though.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Have we answered Don's original question in all of this hoopla?
Is Walthers done with steam?
In my initial reply, I noted that Walthers only involvement with steam seemed to be the Proto Heritage line that it acquired from Life Like. Walthers did nothing with it and seems to have abandoned the line.
Is my understanding correct?
The world is changing and the cost of production is coming down (price is going up but that is because we demand better detail and many want specific detail). Steam has always had a problem with the fact that generaly a bad diesel will run better than a bad steam and the low end is where a lot of people start. This is slowly changing, at least at Bachman which have been moving some steam from Spectrum to regular line as new product comes out.
Sheldon,I know you don't model the UP, but I wasn't talking necessarily about your situation, rather in general about those who have home roads. For example, I helped sell off an estate collection from an old time model railroader who did his own northeast-based home road. He was big into steam, and his home roster included PRR, ATSF, UP, NYC, Union RR, D&H, SP, RDG, D&RGW, SP&S, etc. with an emphasis on articulateds (including a 2-10-10-2).
The modern day "steam reniassance" in HO scale goes back to the original Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0, which was MR's product of the year in 1998. The Spectrum USRA Light Mountain came out in 1999 and the movement was on.
There is no way there was more available variety in 2007 than today. There's been so much steam made in the past 10 years, how can there be less variety?
BLI steam is highly accurate...for the expensive versions. If you're complaining about their generic USRA steamers, that's how they keep the costs $50 to $150 lower. They aren't going to change those. And, BTW, neither does Bachmann. My Spectrum USRA 4-8-2 in NH should have Commonwealth tender trucks, but has Vulcans instead.
You hate the hunt for product? Well, what did you do 30 years ago? How did you hunt something that didn't exist?
Doughless,I doubt that production resources are a problem in regards to production numbers. Getting it made at all can be trouble (see: Atlas), but once a factory is found and a contract signed, the amount of items made doesn't make much difference to the factory (at least in model railroad terms; we're talking thousands not millions). Whether they make 3000 or 6000 units, it won't effect factory capacity. So expanding one product run really doesn't effect another's run. It might delay it, but it won't take away anything.
riogrande5761,The NMRA skews towards older folks and steam. The online community skews towards younger folks and modern. Which is right? The problem with both is that they don't cover everyone. In yon olden days, pretty much everyone got MR and their polls were a good indicator. Now, not so much. Our hobby is more individual now, like a series of stove pipes running parallel and not connecting to each other. How does one poll across the entire hobby today?
With regards to Walthers announcing products and then canceling them, it's real easy for you to say they should make it regardless of pre-orders as it's not your money. They're in this to make money, not provide a hobby service out of the goodness of their hearts. Expecting them to make money-losing products is a great way to drive them out of business.
Steven Otte Let's not turn this into another "oh no the hobby is getting so expensive" thread, or I'll have to merge it.
Let's not turn this into another "oh no the hobby is getting so expensive" thread, or I'll have to merge it.
Respectfully, who said anything about the cost of the hobby?
Except for a few comments about the financial challenges facing the manufacturers, I don't recall any comments in this thread about the cost of the hobby, or even the cost of steam loco models?
Yes, I will continue to complain about the lack of product "on the shelf", but not about the cost of that product.
In fact, because of my background and experiance in the industry, I believe the current product costs truely represent the cost to produce plus a fair and reasonable profit.
Personally I look at prices and say yes or no as it applies to me, but understand why prices are what they are.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
ATSF Guy; CGW121:
Alternative facts. Dimensionally almost identical. Details differed. Look it up.
T&P 2-10-4 655-59 built by Lima in 1929: 28x30 cyl.; 63" dri., 255# b.p.; 100 s.f. grate area; 98,500# t.e.; 307,000# wt. on dri.; 457,500# tot. eng. wt.; 3.63 F. of. A. (other T&P 2-10-4 orders differed slightly)
CGW 2-10-4 850-864 built by Lima in 1930: 29x32 cyl.; 63' dri.; 255# b.p.; 100 s.f. grate area; 97,900# t.e.; 304,000# wt. on dri.; 461,000# tot. eng. wt.; 3.59 F. of A.
Compare these with the Santa Fe 2-10-4's:
Number 5000 built by Baldwin 1930: 30x34 cyl.; 69" dri.; 300# b.p.; 121.5 s.f. grate area; 93,000# t.e.; 372,000# wt. on dri.; 502,600# tot. eng. wt.; 4.0 F of A.
5001 Class built by Baldwin 1937: 30x34 cyl.; 74" dri.; 310# b.p.; 121.5 s.f. grate area; 93000# t.e.; 371,680# wt. on dri.; 545,260# tot. eng. wt.; 4.0 F of A.
5011 Class built by Baldwin 1944: 30x34 cyl.; 74" dri.; 310# b.p.; 121.5 s.f. grate area; 93,000# t.e.; 380,300# wt. on dri.; 538,000# tot. eng. wt.; 4.09 F of A.
Like it or not, the CGW was not a big road with a sufficient following to justify tooling for a big consumer demand. That's reality. But if you really want a CGW 2-10-4, it's possible to get one with the T&P as a starting point. If the project isn't sufficiently important to you to justify the effort, you'll have to do without. Dr. Wayne and Casey have proven that it's possible. If you prefer to base your model conversion on the much larger Santa Fe engine, and think you can pull it off, you can start with a Bachmann. Your choice.
P.S.
Sources: Lima, The History, by Hirsimaki, Hundman Publishing, 1986; and Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail, by Worley, Southwest Railroad Historical Society, 1965.
A few more thoughts,
Jim, I know your not a steam guy, but fact is the "plastic/diecast" steam reniassance is more like 20-25 years old now. There was more available variety 10 years ago than there is today.
Athearn, Proto, Intermountain never offered much variety, but did add to the selection.
Bachmann, while not perfect, easily offered the widest selection and continues to offer variety, good detail, at reasonable prices. The list of different locos from Bachmann in the last 20 years is pretty long and varied, and covers a wide variety of roads and interests.
BLI is one extreem or the other, big, famous, unique stuff is well detailed and road specific, but they can't even change a trailing truck or move a headlight to make a 2-8-2 or 4-6-2 more correct. What a step down for them.....
Look, I like all this new high detail or product as much as anyone, I buy my share, but I don't need every piece on the layout to be that way, I'm a big picture guy. I was once a rivet counter, gave it up to have fun............and I like my 1950's Varney and Athearn stuff.
Yes Paul there is lots of product out there, but I miss stuff being "in stock". Clearly I had access to, and ran a better hobby shop than what you had back in the day. I hate the ebay/train show "hunt". There may have been less variety, but the gaps in availability of that stuff was months, not years............
I still don't buy into the "trains of our youth" idea. I know too many 60 year olds who model current stuff and too many 30 somthings who model the 50's. And most of my friends are like me, they model somthing before they were born. The one survey I mentioned was very recent, but admittedly was a small sample.......
Got to go,
Do an image search on google for both types CGW's Texas looks totally different than the T&P.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL No doubt that "current" railroading is a popular market. But countless surveys continue to show the transistion era to be the most modeled. A recent survey by the NMRA region is my area gave transistion era modeling a 60% ranking with all other eras sharing the remaining 40%.
No doubt that "current" railroading is a popular market. But countless surveys continue to show the transistion era to be the most modeled. A recent survey by the NMRA region is my area gave transistion era modeling a 60% ranking with all other eras sharing the remaining 40%.
I wonder if some of those countless surveys are slowly getting out-of-date as those who remember steam are getting fewer and fewer now. And a recent survey by the NMRA region I would guess to be skewed toward steam from the lengthy discussion about the NMRA in some forums including MRH forums; the make-up evidently of the membership appears to be lots of really old guys and not much younger people.
Point being that while interests have historically been very strong for steam/diesel transition era, that appears to be changing, and it is logical considering the demographic related to steam is fading away. Some polls suggest that the first/second generation diesel transition era (1960's and 1970's) is starting to take over as a popular era of preference. I'm seeing increased production of products that cater to that time frame such as lots of Tangent freight cars and Moloco to name a couple and lately Wheels of Time and Trainworx have been catering very strongly for that time period in N and even HO. Other manufacturers offer more of a mix including modern, and everything in-between modern and transition.
Sure, we all have our bias's and it naturally colors the spectacles we view the hobby and industry, and colors the way we comment about it. But there are factors out there which also point to logical changes afoot such as the changing of that sells and what time periods in RR history. Modern has always had a certain timeless popularity be cause people want models of what they can go out and see. But what sells from past era's logically changes over time.
I think the real problem is money, the exchange rate, rising costs in China, soft market for these products here, unwillingness or inability to tie up money in inventory, and the changing face of this hobby.
Walthers seems particularly risk averse but what I think is not good is that they publically announce varous projects and then cancel them publically. It doesn't look good and it makes it look like they are a timid and floundering company. Not a good image to project. C'mon Walthers. Stop waffling and playing at floating trial baloons. Let your yay be yay and your nay be nay.
But by the 90's we had a new breed as well, collectors/casual modelers, willing to buy more expensive RTR, less concerned about kits, or building whole trains or believeable rosters and more conserned about collecting their favorite famous locos (at big prices but with big discounts) and building layouts simply as a display backdrop to run them on. This has changed the market, and changed the money dynamic of being a model train manufacturer.
This has changed the market, and changed the money dynamic of being a model train manufacturer.
Economics is part of the above situation; people had more and more disposable income and were able to impluse buy stuff and the manufacturers responded. Lifelike P2k went over board with some diesel production and ended up dumping a lot of product and it ended up going for a fraction of the cost. Of course they learned that lesson the hard way and retrenched and started raising prices during the last few years producing some more "modern" EMD diesels.
I have said before, and will say again, if I was getting into this hobby right now - I would not. The difficulty of obtaining related products to build a layout with continuity today would scare me away - especially because I'm not one who is real comfortable buying stuff "used".
The difficulty of obtaining related products to build a layout with continuity today would scare me away - especially because I'm not one who is real comfortable buying stuff "used".
I feel quite the opposite. If anything some of the most excellent newer products in the last 10-15 years has re-energized my interest; As I noted above, there have been a lot of very nice 1960's and 1970's rolling stock that have been very nice and of great interest to me.
I have found it fairly easy to obtain with I want as long as I have the funds; I can usually order from various online sources and scout train shows; sure, maybe I can't find what I want at any given moment, but with some patience I have almost always found what was on my want list. As my wife would say, the world of model railroading is my oyster! I'm happy as a pig in poop! It feels like you are struggling with adapting to the modern world vs. the old way of buying hobby products. The world has changed for sure, but so far I've found with the computer and internet etc. it's really majorly enhanced my access to hobby products. If anything, it's not harder to obtain products but much easier.
Again, happy I have most of what I want. Sheldon
Happy is good. So from where I sit, everyone should be pretty happy. And thats how I see the hobby today - we have more products available to us than ever if you consider past and present products, both of which can be found with some patience and skill, and you have choices all over the price map from freight cars at shows between $5 and $15 or the newer high detail models in the $20-$50 range, and everything in-between. More engines than ever with whistles and bells and prototypical details, for all tastes and pocket books.
Back on topic:
When I first saw the title of this thead, I admit I was thinking Walthers is dropping steam? Did they ever product steam? LOL Ok, I'm out of touch and then was reminded oh, they did take over LL P2K which made some steam, and apparently did offer some from that line. I guess when I think of Walthers I don't really think of them as steam manufacturers. But all the hand wringing about who is left. I didn't even see Athearn Genesis mentioned, which has been making steam past 10 years, and quite a bit, nor did I see Intermountain. Of course there's Bachman Spectrum which many have liked, MTH, Broadway Ltd., and others I'm forgetting. There really has been a renaissance in plastic steam past 10 or so years from casual obervations. If Walthers drops out of the steam market, it doesn't sound like it's going to be a big loss so not a lot to worry about, there are many other products from others.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
CGW121 The Santa Fe had Texas types the outside of the loco are almost identicle to the CGW Texas types, closer than the T&P.
The Santa Fe had Texas types the outside of the loco are almost identicle to the CGW Texas types, closer than the T&P.
Not to my eyes. The dimensions of the prototype CGW locos were copied from those of the T&P locos. Lima built both groups, and their cosmetics were the same in many respects. The Baldwin-built Santa Fe 2-10-4's had larger drivers, bigger boilers, and a totally different look. But if you think they look the same, I see no point in saying any more.
oldline1...The P2K Berk is pretty nice but I don't like the super thin tires on all drivers. It just offends my senses to not have tires....
I agree...my first thought was that it looked unfinished. At least it wasn't a locomotive that I needed .
DigitalGriffin ...I'm happy Bachmann offers steam. But you often find overly thick details, and many details missing, or just molded on...
That's true lately, but all of the Proto steamers I've seen came with undersize pipe: apparently the die makers weren't aware that pipe sizes refer to the inside, not outside, diameter.I did buy a Proto 0-8-0, and while it ran very nicely (it was the version without tender pick-up), it wasn't a very good puller. I was going to get rid of it, but took it apart to see if I could add any weight to it in the hope of gaining a little more oomph from it. After removing the lighting circuit board and the flywheel, I was able to cram some lead into those vacancies and performance was improved. In fact, it improved enough that I reworked it completely to match photos of a CNR protptype. This involved lowering the running boards, lengthening the loco's frame on both ends, and completely re-detailing it, including all new piping. The new air tanks (lead-filled brass tubing) added to the pulling power, too.This one eventually suffered from the cracked gear issue, but I was able to repair it, and eventually got a new gear, free of charge, from Walthers. I've kept the repaired one, too, just in case.
After that, I looked for a Proto 0-6-0, but couldn't find one at a reasonable price. I later got this brass locomotive from a friend. I re-worked it somewhat, too, adding a few details and some mechanical work, then repainted it. The price was very reasonable (free! ) and it will out-pull the 0-8-0.
Wayne
It is interesting that we seem to hear about more items that Walthers has canceled or are no longer supporting than those items that are being produced on time and with good quality. It appears they are feeling around for a direction. Hopefully that is all that it is. Maybe they know something we do not. The model manufacturing landscape is so dynamic today, you product can be antiquated before the first one is completed.
So many trains, so little time,
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com
Paul3 Doughless,Just because something sells out quickly doesn't mean it's more popular than something that doesn't sell out as quickly. I know, I know, it sounds wrong, but we just don't know the amounts of product made in the first place. Say they make 3000 copies of a modern car and 5000 copies of a transition era car; the 3000 modern cars disappear quickly, but the 5000 cars takes a little longer. Which was more popular?
Doughless,Just because something sells out quickly doesn't mean it's more popular than something that doesn't sell out as quickly. I know, I know, it sounds wrong, but we just don't know the amounts of product made in the first place. Say they make 3000 copies of a modern car and 5000 copies of a transition era car; the 3000 modern cars disappear quickly, but the 5000 cars takes a little longer. Which was more popular?
Yes I realize that and I chose my words carefully. I wasn't saying that the quick sell out at MSRP or higher prices was a sign that the more modern equipment was overall more popular, what I said was that the supply of these products are not meeting the demand for them.
In your example, both products best equilibrium between supply and demand might be 3500 units for one and 4500 units for the other, or 4000 apiece. Given finite production resources, expanding the run of one product most likely takes away from the run of the other. Overall, if a company can sell those 8000 total units quicker than before and at higher margins, they will adjust their product mix.
Its all speculation of course, but maybe Walthers sees this and is sacrificing steam production for a while to expand the production of something else.
nycstlrrTodays middle class, hell, they can`t afford vacations. Both parents have to work just to feed their kids.
Or a parent cant afford to take there kids on vacation because they are paying exorbatant child support and can only afford a cracker box apartment with no room for a layout either. While you or I may wish for the good ol days when you actually had a two parent house hold that was the average family, it isnt the norm anymore. Heck. I just heard on npr today that the number of singles out numbers marrieds.
So, I guess the demise of steam is economics.
Is and was about economics. While I agree, steam was and is cool, after diesels where perfected, correct me if I am wrong, steam cost too much to continue to operate, so RRs retired their steam as soon as was practical. So of course, yes, economics. And cars and airplanes killed most passenger ridership as well.
Families just can`t afford to run to Wyoming, or Pennsylvania, Indiana, to spend well over a 100 bucks to ride behind these engines that are still running, and the kids have no clue about them. Plus they all have phones and every other electronic devise in front of their faces now. Off the soap box, like it did any good.
Not in outward terms no, but it did let you vent, so that is a little good for you.
Now go ask Alexa (Amazon Echo) to play Good ol days by The Judds!
Paul, only one comment, I also model three prototype roads.......B&O, C&O, WM. I freelance becauee it is fun to create a plausable what if. I don't have any UP locos lettered ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
Is Walthers done with steam? I doubt it. Athearn didn't make steam for decades, yet they're making it now. Markets change, and if Walthers feels that enough demand has built up for their steam, they'll make more.
Is steam modeling dying out? Nope. Look at Athearn, BLI, Rapido, Bachmann, MTH, InterMountain and a few others that keep making it. They wouldn't if it didn't sell.
ATSFGuy,There were over 150 Class I steam railroads in the USA. It takes time to go through all those, and oddly enough, Walthers wants to make the most money they can. Selling ATSF, UP, PRR, etc., is like printing money vs. more localized roads.Sheldon,You're one of the few people that models a home road. The majority of modelers today don't create their own railroad, they model a real one. In days of yore, modelers had to create fictional roads because that's the only way they could justify running PRR K-4's with UP 4-6-6-4's alongside B&M P-4's and IHB 0-8-0's. There was no way to really model just one railroad without buying brass.
Do you know what's more frustrating than pre-ordering? Not being able to pre-order because it doesn't exist. When I was a kid getting into the hobby "seriously" when I was 15, I really, really wanted a NH I-5 4-6-4. When I finally found one at a train show a year later, it was $500...in 1991! That's $881 in today's money. Today, I can go on eBay right now and buy one for $400. Less than half the value of that old brass steamer, and not only is the BLI a much more accurate model, it runs better and has sound (yeah, I know...no sound for you but still...).
It's far easier to find and buy stuff today. When I was a kid, I had my choice of local hobby shops...which meant anything I wanted as long as it was made by Athearn, MDC, or Atlas. Sometimes they went out on a limb and had Stewart, but that big wall of Athearn blue boxes was ever present. Which was great if you wanted whatever Athearn made, but for those of us that wanted something else, tough luck. Today, stuff is widely available and in so many different variations which were undreamed of in the '80's. Everything back then had one number on it, and they never ever changed them. An Athearn loco from 1965 still had the same number on it 20 years later. But back then that's all there was.
ATSFGuy There's hundreds of locomotive designs to choose from, I have yet to see any CGW or L&N Steam.
There's hundreds of locomotive designs to choose from, I have yet to see any CGW or L&N Steam.
BLI's T&P 2-10-4 is a design that was also used by CGW, and I believe CGW also used USRA Mikes.
Most L&N modern power was based on USRA designs (0-8-0's, light and heavy 2-8-2's, 4-6-2's, and 4-8-2's), and these have been available from many sources. The running gear and boiler of the NKP 2-8-4 is correct for an L&N M-1, but you would need to do a lot of work on the details and tender, in much the same way that Casey does to get his Wooten-equipped engines. A lot of work, but worth it.
To make these engines truly correct for these roads, you might have to make some mods, depending on your skill level and your determination to conform to the prototype. But it's quite possible, and that's what is needed for a lot of prototype roads, if those are the prototypes you really want.
Short of brass, those are your options. It's just not reasonable to expect the manufacturers to build models of everything. If we are modelers, we can do some model building.
My two Proto 2-8-8-2's, two 0-8-0's are without question great looking and great running.
Why would you not give a replacement product another chance? Do you take that position in real life? Like with automobiles?
I don't have a Proto 2-10-2, can't comment directly, but if it is anything like the 2-8-8-2 and the 0-8-0, I'm sure I would be happy.
Well, John, you seem to be the lone unhappy Proto steam customer......
I have 30 Bachmann steamers, Bachmann replaced a few duds, the replacements were all perfect..........
And my two brass locos now have plastic tenders......from Bachmann, but then again none of my locos are stock out of the box......
And I've never sold any, so I don't care about holding value. Not that there is likely a big market for 2-8-8-2's, converted to 2-8-8-0's and lettered ATLANTIC CENTRAL. I doubt my PFM Pacific with its Bachmann tender has much resale value either.
I've have three of the Proto 2000 USRA 0-8-0s and they all ran beautifully right out of the box. Other than the 0-6-0, I didn't find any other Proto steamers I was interested in.