ATLANTIC CENTRAL Also, the design of the a particular motor, combined with the waveform of a particular throttle, can eliminate or exaggerate such problems. No amount of "standards" can forsee all these conditions, so it will always be a "modelers" hobby for all these little details - in my view.....Stuff will need "tweeking". Sheldon
Also, the design of the a particular motor, combined with the waveform of a particular throttle, can eliminate or exaggerate such problems.
No amount of "standards" can forsee all these conditions, so it will always be a "modelers" hobby for all these little details - in my view.....Stuff will need "tweeking".
Sheldon
- Douglas
Well, what Sheldon is saying makes sense. I didn't know any better, and in all these years I've never had another manufacturer's units fight each other that much as the Athearns. Even running elephant style they had issues.
With the rtr SD40's of several years ago, every single unit ran at a different speed, too. It was maddening. I had 3 ICG orange (but way too brown) and white units, and 2 Western Maryland units.
I have tried a lot of Athearns. For me, I prefer just about everything else.
John
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL Also, the design of the a particular motor, combined with the waveform of a particular throttle, can eliminate or exaggerate such problems. No amount of "standards" can forsee all these conditions, so it will always be a "modelers" hobby for all these little details - in my view.....Stuff will need "tweeking". Sheldon Well said.
Perhaps but,the need to tweak a high dollar engines is more then enough to question why that is even necessary when the other manufacturers got it right?
I can take a Atlas DCC/Sound locomotive out of its box,set my favorite CVs,select the horn and bell ring rate and three months from now all the headlights will still be working.
My Bachmann DCC/Sound S4 I got last year still has working lights.
My Athearn Genesis DCC/Sound GP9 bulbs blew one at a time yet,this is supposed to be their top line of locomotives.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIEI can take a Atlas DCC/Sound locomotive out of its box,set my favorite CVs,select the horn and bell ring rate and three months from now all the headlights will still be working.
That's because Atlas uses LEDs for their lighting. While I like and prefer incandescents for lighting structures and buildings, for headlights - give me LEDs everytime.
I also like the focused beam of light of an LED; whereas incandescents have a more diffused beam.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
BRAKIE Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL Also, the design of the a particular motor, combined with the waveform of a particular throttle, can eliminate or exaggerate such problems. No amount of "standards" can forsee all these conditions, so it will always be a "modelers" hobby for all these little details - in my view.....Stuff will need "tweeking". Sheldon Well said. Perhaps but,the need to tweak a high dollar engines is more then enough to question why that is even necessary when the other manufacturers got it right? I can take a Atlas DCC/Sound locomotive out of its box,set my favorite CVs,select the horn and bell ring rate and three months from now all the headlights will still be working. My Bachmann DCC/Sound S4 I got last year still has working lights. My Athearn Genesis DCC/Sound GP9 bulbs blew one at a time yet,this is supposed to be their top line of locomotives.
But Larry, my throttles will not even work with dual mode decoders, so I'm in a completely different world. If you try to run a decoder equiped loco with the Aristo Train Engineer, it has two speeds, off and full throttle, and that's if it will run at all. The Aristo output is pulse width modulated, and the decoders hate it.
This extended discussion has ben about surging and MU issues on DC, not about the headlights anyway........
AGREED, ATHEARN SHOULD FIX THE HEADLIGHT ISSUE.
PRR8259 I've never had another manufacturer's units fight each other that much as the Athearns. Even running elephant style they had issues. With the rtr SD40's of several years ago, every single unit ran at a different speed, too. It was maddening. I had 3 ICG orange (but way too brown) and white units, and 2 Western Maryland units. I have tried a lot of Athearns. For me, I prefer just about everything else. John
I've never had another manufacturer's units fight each other that much as the Athearns. Even running elephant style they had issues.
My problem is I am an SP and D&RGW fan and Athearn, to-date, is the only maker of affordable plastic prototype specific SD45T-2's, SD40R's, SD45R's, SD40T-2's etc. so everything else will not work. I'm not going to dump all my favorite trains to switch to some other brand, or brass x, y or z that I don't care for.
Intermountain has tunnel motors on the list to produce but so far they are a more than a year behind the original release date and they will be mega expensive; it might actually still be cheaper to buy the Athearn remotoring kit if necessary on some units. Admittedly I have limited running experience, but the Athearn SD45's I've run so far didn't seem to fight each other and run smoothly and quietly.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
BRAKIE Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL Also, the design of the a particular motor, combined with the waveform of a particular throttle, can eliminate or exaggerate such problems. No amount of "standards" can forsee all these conditions, so it will always be a "modelers" hobby for all these little details - in my view.....Stuff will need "tweeking". Sheldon Well said. Perhaps but,the need to tweak a high dollar engines is more then enough to question why that is even necessary when the other manufacturers got it right?
Larry, if you are making this statement in reference only to light bulbs, I agree. I think most people wish that Athearn would switch to LEDs.
But I took Sheldon's comment in a broader context, that not all locomotives, even of the same model within the same brand, will always work the same. Too many variables. Too many changes.
What if Athearn's motor supplier began buying magnets from a different supplier? Would the next run of Genesis F unit run exactly the same as the last run? What if you use a Tech 6, and I use an NCE wireless, or a DC power pack?
I love Atlas products, with the GP38/40 being my favorite. But recently, Atlas changed motor suppliers, switching from the old black Kato looking motor to a silver, smaller, looking motor. And with the changes almost annually to the pc board, I wouldn't expect every GP38 to run the same as another gp38, even when I use the same throttle for both. Adjusting CVs might not provide the same result.
That's my beef with the electronics side of the hobby, as far as locomotives. The PC boards keep changing. I expect decoders do also with each "upgrade".
Tweeking locos to perform the same is just part of the hobby. So when one run of loco doesn't perform like the previous run of loco, I don't get all upset at the producer.
But as far as lightbulbs, yeah, I think Athearn should move to the pack.
riogrande5761 PRR8259 I've never had another manufacturer's units fight each other that much as the Athearns. Even running elephant style they had issues. With the rtr SD40's of several years ago, every single unit ran at a different speed, too. It was maddening. I had 3 ICG orange (but way too brown) and white units, and 2 Western Maryland units. I have tried a lot of Athearns. For me, I prefer just about everything else. John My problem is I am an SP and D&RGW fan and Athearn, to-date, is the only maker of affordable plastic prototype specific SD45T-2's, SD40R's, SD45R's, SD40T-2's etc. so everything else will not work. I'm not going to dump all my favorite trains to switch to some other brand, or brass x, y or z that I don't care for. Intermountain has tunnel motors on the list to produce but so far they are a more than a year behind the original release date and they will be mega expensive; it might actually still be cheaper to buy the Athearn remotoring kit if necessary on some units. Admittedly I have limited running experience, but the Athearn SD45's I've run so far didn't seem to fight each other and run smoothly and quietly.
And I agree completely, I will learn how to make something work rather than restrict my choices - I rebuilt two bad running BLI USRA Heavy Mikados - its the only game in town.........other than hunting for brass........
People still knock Bachmann, but most of my Spectrum steamers only need the most minor fixes to make them superb running locos. $100 and a few simple mods, I'm all in, give me 10 more.
Tom;
I purchased two FM H20-44's (Alco/Samhongsa) back in the early '80's...had them painted P&WV and they both developed split gears (delrin plastic?) after little running. That was years ago. I've been out of the hobby for decades but crawling back now. Have you any info to share on source/type of replacement gears? My only other brass diesel is a Hallmark EMD E-3/6 which I planned to paint as SAL citrus scheme...never got around to it.
I appreciate the many informative comments on this site.
Ed
Ed--
The earlier brass diesels had some nylon gears that would crack. Also, for noise reasons some folks alternated metal and nylon gears...
I don't regear diesels myself, but Northwest Short Line should be able to help you out with what you will need.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And I agree completely, I will learn how to make something work rather than restrict my choices - I rebuilt two bad running BLI USRA Heavy Mikados - its the only game in town.........other than hunting for brass........ People still knock Bachmann, but most of my Spectrum steamers only need the most minor fixes to make them superb running locos. $100 and a few simple mods, I'm all in, give me 10 more. Sheldon
Sheldon--
The Oriental Limited Powerhouse USRA 2-8-2 Series engines, a much earlier series of "hybrids", routinely show up at train shows for prices not that much more than BLI mikados, and they were somewhat better looking, better detailed engines built by Samhongsa at a good time in Samhongsa's production history. I only owned the USRA 2-8-8-2's, but they were fantastic--had the same drive mechanisms in them as $2000 full on brass articulateds.
Did you ever consider them????
PRR8259 ATLANTIC CENTRAL And I agree completely, I will learn how to make something work rather than restrict my choices - I rebuilt two bad running BLI USRA Heavy Mikados - its the only game in town.........other than hunting for brass........ People still knock Bachmann, but most of my Spectrum steamers only need the most minor fixes to make them superb running locos. $100 and a few simple mods, I'm all in, give me 10 more. Sheldon Sheldon-- The Oriental Limited Powerhouse USRA 2-8-2 Series engines, a much earlier series of "hybrids", routinely show up at train shows for prices not that much more than BLI mikados, and they were somewhat better looking, better detailed engines built by Samhongsa at a good time in Samhongsa's production history. I only owned the USRA 2-8-8-2's, but they were fantastic--had the same drive mechanisms in them as $2000 full on brass articulateds. Did you ever consider them???? John
The Powerhouse locos are USRA Light Mikados, BLI makes both a light and a heavy, I have two of the heavies.
I do have a Powerhouse USRA Light Pacific, nice loco, but for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL it now has a long haul oil tender originally on a Spectrum KCS 2-10-2.....
DoughlessTweeking locos to perform the same is just part of the hobby. So when one run of loco doesn't perform like the previous run of loco, I don't get all upset at the producer.
I can see tweeking a low ball engines but,not today's preimum locomotives.
My last new Atlas was the DCC ready SCL Alco S-2 and it seems to be another great Atlas engine. I haven't looked at the motor since the engine ran smooth from the box-its that "If it ain't broke don't fix it" thingy.
Oddly I almost didn't buy this engine because I wasn't sure if SCL still had S-2s in service in 77/78 but,the price was very reasonable and its such a pretty thing.
I don't have any Atlas locos, so few of their locos are in my era, and I stayed with older Proto for GP7's, ALCO S switchers, FM is not really of interest to me.....
But more importantly, they always seem hard to find in the versions I want....and generally a little higher priced than Proto.
Most of my diesel fleet is pre Walthers Proto, and they all run great. As indicated easlier, most of my F units are Intermountain and Genesis.
Atlas was one of the first to get real serious with the preorder thing, and I am mostly interested in undecorated, which seem hard to find from Atlas.
As was commented earlier, it does not matter how good they are if they don't have what you want.
BRAKIE Doughless Tweeking locos to perform the same is just part of the hobby. So when one run of loco doesn't perform like the previous run of loco, I don't get all upset at the producer. I can see tweeking a low ball engines but,not today's preimum locomotives. My last new Atlas was the DCC ready SCL Alco S-2 and it seems to be another great Atlas engine. I haven't looked at the motor since the engine ran smooth from the box-its that "If it ain't broke don't fix it" thingy. Oddly I almost didn't buy this engine because I wasn't sure if SCL still had S-2s in service in 77/78 but,the price was very reasonable and its such a pretty thing.
Doughless Tweeking locos to perform the same is just part of the hobby. So when one run of loco doesn't perform like the previous run of loco, I don't get all upset at the producer.
Your S2 will run differently than a Red Box S2. Of course, they are different models.
Try the running qualities of various runs of LL/Walthers GP20s. I think they made about 4 or 5 different runs. New PC boards every run, and now Walthers changes the truck design, yet the shells are exactly the same.
I have over a dozen Atlas GP38/40s dating back from the 1999 run to about 2012. Atlas went from a PC board, to a 2 function decoder, 2 different 4 function decoders, then when they split into sound/nonsound, changed the pc board again. Now the newest run has a different motor. But over those 12 years, the shells and details are exactly the same, not being able to tell which run its from if you didn't check their website.
I'm not complaining or bashing producers, its just the reality of business.
Most of my locomotives are Stewart F units with Kato drives in them. Recently I decided to purchase some 'new' engines. I purchased three Intermountain EMD F units. I must say their quality control is really lacking.
The pilots were not attached to the bodies. They were hanging on the coupler. There were sections of windshields missing. On one engine the wires going to the front truck were not attached to the front truck. Both of them were just dangling above the truck.
The DCC decoders were abysmal. Trying to set acceleration and de-acceleration were an exercise in futility. Trying to set anything was futile. There were no real instructions with the locomotives (not even the brand or model of the decoders) and the online instuctions were short and confusing. I ended up replacing the decoders with TCS decoders.
These were the first 'new' engines I have bought in a long time. These three from Intermountain might not be typical of their product, but I'll stick with my Stewart/Kato engines.
DoughlessTry the running qualities of various runs of LL/Walthers GP20s.
Think I'll past..My older LL P2K GP38-2 will not mu together thanks to LL gear of the month choice.Oddly my P2K SCL GP7,both SCL GP9s and the SCL GP18 will mu quite nicely but,not my Ohio Central GP7 and my SCR P2K SW8 since they're to slow to mu with anything other then each other.
What I do love about those engines they make beautiful switch engines.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI don't have any Atlas locos, so few of their locos are in my era, and I stayed with older Proto for GP7's, ALCO S switchers, FM is not really of interest to me.....
IIRC, Sheldon, you model 1953-54? So, no Alco RS-1/RS-3s? Atlas has a nice selection of both, although probably heavier towards RS-3s.
Yea, undecorated Atlas are a little difficult to find but not impossible. I picked up a new, undecorated DC Atlas S2 and HH660 switcher off eBay and both were <$100 each. My hope is to eventually paint and detail them pre-'48 NYC.
tstage ATLANTIC CENTRAL I don't have any Atlas locos, so few of their locos are in my era, and I stayed with older Proto for GP7's, ALCO S switchers, FM is not really of interest to me..... IIRC, Sheldon, you model 1953-54? So, no Alco RS-1/RS-3s? Atlas has a nice selection of both, although probably heavier towards RS-3s. Atlas was one of the first to get real serious with the preorder thing, and I am mostly interested in undecorated, which seem hard to find from Atlas. Yea, undecorated Atlas are a little difficult to find but not impossible. I picked up a new, undecorated DC Atlas S2 and HH660 switcher off eBay and both were <$100 each. My hope is to eventually paint and detail them pre-'48 NYC. Tom
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I don't have any Atlas locos, so few of their locos are in my era, and I stayed with older Proto for GP7's, ALCO S switchers, FM is not really of interest to me.....
The RS-1/RS-3 is the one group from them that does interest me, but I already have the Western Maryland versions in Proto1000 and two from Athearn for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL, and despite their bad reputation, my two Athearns are fine - I know, its only two and I must have been lucky.....
Early Proto did cover the first generation thing pretty well, so I have largely stayed with them, GP7, SD7/9, FA, PA, BL2, SW, ALCO S class - lots of each in all the roads I model, B&O, C&O, WM and ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
And then my Intermountain and Genesis EMD F units.
I'm glad your Athearn RS-3s are running well, Sheldon. I wish I could say the same for mine. One of these days I'll have to tinker with them...
MGHR59 Tom; I purchased two FM H20-44's (Alco/Samhongsa) back in the early '80's...had them painted P&WV and they both developed split gears (delrin plastic?) after little running. That was years ago. I've been out of the hobby for decades but crawling back now. Have you any info to share on source/type of replacement gears? My only other brass diesel is a Hallmark EMD E-3/6 which I planned to paint as SAL citrus scheme...never got around to it. I appreciate the many informative comments on this site. Ed
Welcome back! Stick with it!
I got replacement gears for the H20-44 from Northwest Short Line several years ago and had no trouble installing the replacements. Sorry, I don't remember the part number, but an inquiry to NWSL can probably direct you. I understand this was a very common problem with these models, so you shouldn't feel like you're being picked on! The engine runs fine now, but it's always been a bit noisier than many other diesel models. A better motor might help, but wouldn't be absolutely necessary.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL People still knock Bachmann, but most of my Spectrum steamers only need the most minor fixes to make them superb running locos. $100 and a few simple mods, I'm all in, give me 10 more. Sheldon
My impression is the Bachmann being knocked are the diesels almost exclusively and never the Spectum steam. Never. It would be good to put that to bed permanently.
riogrande5761 ATLANTIC CENTRAL People still knock Bachmann, but most of my Spectrum steamers only need the most minor fixes to make them superb running locos. $100 and a few simple mods, I'm all in, give me 10 more. Sheldon My impression is the Bachmann being knocked are the diesels almost exclusively and never the Spectum steam. Never. It would be good to put that to bed permanently.
True enough, the steam does get more respect, but there are still a few who had an issue and will not let it go.
As for Bachmann diesels, they have come a long way. And, it is not an all or nothing issue. Some are very nice and very accurate, others run nice with the newer drives, but are weak in the detail/accuracy department - BUT, they are going after a different price point/market than Proto, Intermountain, Genesis, BLI, etc.
Detail wise, think of most current Bachmann diesels as better or equal to Athearn RTR, or Roundhouse, but not as detailed as the brands listed above.......
And I have to say once again, when someone uses the word "quality" to me, I think of how good is the drive, how well/correctly assembled is it, is the paint job sharp and clean.
I do not think of "does it have every proto correct detail spot on", that is matter of "features", not "quality". A Ford Focus and a Lincoln can both be built with high quality, the Lincoln has more "featrures" - and a price to go with.
If we are talking about quality diesel locomotives, I have owned a lot of Atlas units that were fantastic, very nearly as good as Kato engines.
It obviously depends upon one's prototype of choice, but Atlas engines generally have QA/QC that rivals Kato, and they run very well, excepting a few engines a couple years back that had cheaper motors in them. Motors have since been replaced with an upgraded version on all new Atlas production.
I don't own any Bachman engines but have avidly read reviews and modeler coments. Basically most of the complaints have been in regard to poor fidelity to prototype in body and trucks etc as well as dimensional issues. Based on the reviews being pretty consistently critcal I've always steered clear. But they've always been at the low end of the HO diesel market so that is to be expected.
I have noted improvements to the chassis and paint in recent years but from what I understand, the shell/bodys are basically the same and fidelity has not improved. So disciminating modelers, as a rule, still find Bachman falling well short. If fidelity is of lower importance, then Bachman may fit the bill.
riogrande5761 I don't own any Bachman engines but have avidly read reviews and modeler coments. Basically most of the complaints have been in regard to poor fidelity to prototype in body and trucks etc as well as dimensional issues. Based on the reviews being pretty consistently critcal I've always steered clear. But they've always been at the low end of the HO diesel market so that is to be expected. I have noted improvements to the chassis and paint in recent years but from what I understand, the shell/bodys are basically the same and fidelity has not improved. So disciminating modelers, as a rule, still find Bachman falling well short. If fidelity is of lower importance, then Bachman may fit the bill.
Doughless riogrande5761 I don't own any Bachman engines but have avidly read reviews and modeler coments. Basically most of the complaints have been in regard to poor fidelity to prototype in body and trucks etc as well as dimensional issues. Based on the reviews being pretty consistently critcal I've always steered clear. But they've always been at the low end of the HO diesel market so that is to be expected. I have noted improvements to the chassis and paint in recent years but from what I understand, the shell/bodys are basically the same and fidelity has not improved. So disciminating modelers, as a rule, still find Bachman falling well short. If fidelity is of lower importance, then Bachman may fit the bill. All comments are probably true of their older diesel products, such as the GP30, GP35, and GP50, possibly the GP38/40. But the RS-3, S2/4, and GP7 are all new models from the ground up. Handrails and cut levers are thin and the paint and printing is on par with more expensive models. The mechanics of the drivetrain is decent. What they lack is grab irons, and the typical array of hand applied details, which of course, costs labor. The new offerings are priced as you would expect a model with little detail to be priced, but what details they have are as good as the other guys' more expensive models. Of course, their dual mode decoder is very basic too. I think the newer Bachmann diesels are a nice starting point for a modeler to add the details and decoder of their choice. And Bachmann is really the only game in town for 44, 45, and 70 Ton switchers.
DoughlessAnd Bachmann is really the only game in town for 44, 45, and 70 Ton switchers.
The GE 44-tonner is one of my favorite early diesel switchers. Sure wish the NYC would have had some in their roster to justify getting one. They did have a 70-tonner (DES-1/1a) but the Bachmann offering isn't even close - not even to kitbash.
The only Bachmann diesels I have are the GE switchers, 44 and 70 tonners, and they are more than accurate enough for my purposes.
But I know others who are very happy with the newer offerings.
riogrande5761 All comments are probably true of their older diesel products, such as the GP30, GP35, and GP50, possibly the GP38/40. And the F units, the DD40A with it's gaping pilot hole, the GE's, SD45's etc. etc.
I only follow switchers and 4 axle stuff.
As far as the DD40, and all potential DD40 models for that matter: Wouldn't the shear length of the model require an excessive swing in the trucks just in order for it to travel on something less than a 36 inch radius curve. I don't know if I would blame Bachmann for not being able to defy the laws of physics.
I suppose they could at least fill in the nose pilot and use a dummy coupler like some steam engines.
Once a manufacturer decides that its models are going to run on a typical layout, those longer locos have to be compromised in some way (as would passenger cars and 72 foot centerbeam flat cars too). But again, I don't follow the long locomotives that much to know if its possible to really make the pilots any other way.