I've decided not to comment on the already existing thread on train shows as note may be lost. Folks, as you must know, hobby merchandise marketing and sales is greatly changing to on-line almost everythings. Many of our once fine train shops have fallen victim to this change...even some with strong on-line presenses and excellent web sites. It is easy to figure out that the costs of a brick and concrete store cannot compete with on-line 24/7 mostly tax free and strongly discounted shopping. ....henceforth the wholesale demise of these many shops.....in addition to older shop owners retiring or just dying off.
I have noticed in my over 30 years of co-running a rather large train show here in the east the importance of newbies being able to see, touch, and acquire first hand knowledge about model trains. As our fine shops are going south, possible new entrants must rely on train shows to learn about and see first hand what this hobby is about. Of course there are friends with model railroads, club and individual open houses, but rarely are sales conducted at open houses or other activities so often found at stores or train shows.
There is so much more to say about this subject, but in summary all I can really suggest is to support shows as often as possible, as when they go the route of the LHS.....what will follow?
HZ
Shopping in general has changed. We buy the majority of our nonfood purchases on line, all our christmas shopping is now done on line. It should be no suprise then that I buy a lot of my model railroad stuff on line as well, especially the stuff I am familier with. I buy most of my flex track and switches on line ( YEA AMAZON.COM!!) I like train shows and try to attend them, but I do not use cash, so I am limited to the vendors who take credit cards. If you want to sell stuff it is very easy to set up a paypal account. I know I would buy a LOT more if paypal was an option.
LION'S favorite train show is held at Rutgers University, and is hosted by the New York Transit Modlelrs Association. All Subway and Transit, a good venue to get ideas, to see workshops, to meet friends and even buy some stuff.
Now it is true that the LION has been there only once, I mean, really, who would go to New Jersey? Maybe in the future I can plan my vacation around that event, but that will be many years down the road.
Oh well, ... ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Same at this end of the Big Pond!
The nearest LHS is an hour´s drive away and usually does not stock what I am looking for. I do all my hobby related purchases online, and as I am going for used stuff, the "Bay" is the place to look for me.
We have a train show in our not so neighborhood ( 60 miles away) once a year, but it´ll cost me $ 40 to get there and pay the entrance charges - too much for the layouts shown and the "bargains" which aren´t any.
Personally, I really love going to train shows. I enjoy seeing layouts and seeing products in person even in scales or eras I'm not going to buy. I also enjoy seeing old stuff from decades ago. Train shows also have way more stuff to buy than any hobby shop near me. They are like a county fair for trains.
Enjoy
Paul
I personally would love to go to a train show but in my area they have mostly vanished even though I live in an area of more than 5 million people. There are still two I know of, both are on the fringes of the area I live and are over 30 miles away and hard to get to (off the beaten path) if you don't have a car (common in this area as public transportation is so good normally). There used to be 6 or more local ones. Most have been gone 15 years or more.
I love train shows. I buy many of my scenery products at train shows. Shows often have things that are no longer available new, mostly from the guys who buy and part out layouts from estate sales. I am a big fan of looking at things before I commit to a purchase. I usually pay in cash.
Stepping out of RR subjects, I buy many things by finding them on line and then using the web to find a store that has them in stock.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
For the trains I purchase, I often do shop at shows now.
I find the better dealers can accept a credit card now, or they have a buddy that will do credit card transactions for them (often the case at Timonium now).
I will be at Timonium on Sunday.
Happy hunting to all.
John Mock
For me, a big reason I go to train shows / RR flea markets, is to find things that I can't find elsewhere, like kits or engines that were produced a few years back and are now out of stock elsewhere. In some cases, there are vendors who I have been buying from for many years at the shows I go to. In effect, they're a "local hobby shop" only they keep their wares in their house and bring them to the show in a van, instead of having a brick-and-mortar hobby shop. A few even have a part of their house set aside like a store, and open it up to customers say one day a week.
I like model trains and I like SEEing model trains, not just images of a model train on a computer screen. I greatly enjoy visiting a large train show where I can look at the variety and quality of different products in different scales, even if it is not a scale that I model (I'm greatly impressed with the improvement in appearance of N scale diesels in recent years, for example).
When I lived in Virginia I would usually get to the big Timonium show at least twice a year, but it is a long haul from South Carolina. I do visit the smaller local shows, including a run up to Asheville this past spring, but they don't have the variety. As mentioned in an earlier post, finding some of the old kits, out-of-print books, and items one never knew existed is a good portion of the joy of the visit.
I have long practiced deferring hobby purchases until some bills are paid and deferring working on the models until my work around the house is done. Similarly, I stash away available extra funds each month or as available and then can go to the train show with both some purchase money and funds for a safe hotel. This has become my "vacation" in October to go up to the Timonium show and get a good crab cake sandwich and a new Orioles hat in the process. I am already looking forward to attending the October show and have hotel reservations made. Thanks, Howard, for working so many years to make that one of the premier shows. Clearly, I won't be able to travel forever, but for this year I plan to be there again in October and I plan to look at all of 'em (and spend some dollars, too).
If you have never been to one of the larger train shows, I recommend it.
Bill
There are several types of train shows the real good,the good and the junk man cometh types. These shows will slowly fade into the sunset.Next show check the ages of the dealers. Then modelers doesn't what to drive to a train show,pay for parking,pay to get in and find little things of interest to them.Of course some rush in/out in twenty mintues and then complain about how bad the show was on their favorite forum while others takes 2-3 hours seeking out the deals.
The biggest hurdle facing train shows is price versus the on line shops. I go to the shows looking for good quality use cars and locomotives not the new overprice models I can buy off line cheaper.
New modelers entering the hobby is already aware of the price difference since he's no stranger to on line shopping. He knows there are quality reviews on you tube.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Howard, you are probably right, but...
We went to your October show for a number of years. Not cheap for us when you consider it involved 2 nights at a motel, meals, etc. But I really enjoyed it & we looked at it like a little weekend get away. The last show we went to, after you retired, was so disappointing, it no longer warrants the expense.
Another show locally changed the venue, resulting in serious parking problems. Drove all the way across town a couple of times only to return home because there simply wasn't any place to park.
And finally , over the last couple of years, the prices asked for by vendors who have nothing but junk is sort of silly. Other vendors are asking for manufacturer's suggested retail prices. Why would anyone want to pay that when on line discounts of 20 - 25% are available.
I know it's my loss, but I haven't been to a train show in 2 or 3 years now.
Tom
Pittsburgh, PA
never mind.
When John Tews ran Trainfest here in Milwaukee each November, he was careful to have the advertising say "Not A Swap Meet." There was a reason for that. (And there are plenty of swap meets around Milwaukee -- they have their place, but they feed off the hobby, and do not grow the hobby). The purpose of Trainfest (a 2 day show) is primarily to introduce the hobby to newcomers, as befits its posture as an activity of the local NMRA division, but also to attract the experienced modeler.
The main focus is and was on operating layouts, although there were vendors (dealers), displays, historical societies, and major (and not so major) manufacturers. There were also continuous as well as scheduled clinics by experienced modelers. Current leadership of Ken Jaglinski has mostly kept to those themes, although there is now some used stuff, not much. And Ken has a new emphasis on railroad historical societies and clinics, including some pretty intense clinics.
Attracting both the general public and experienced modelers, with good dealers and manufacturers, both of which tend to shy away from the swap meet atmosphere, as well as operating layouts and displays and clinics, has proven a successful mix for many years now. Most years attendance is 20,000 or better.
I really do regard the usual swap meet as one kind of train show, and a show with dealers, manufacturers, displays, operating layouts, clinics, historical societies, publishers and book dealers, clothing and gift items, and so on, as a whole 'nother kind of show. I enjoy both kinds but go to fewer and fewer swap meets.
As far as distance goes, I regard Trainfest as right around the corner from my house, at about 15 to 20 miles. I happily have driven to shows in Davenport Iowa (220 miles) and Galesburg IL (240 miles) although for Galesburg I do stay overnight to take in Railroad Days (skipped it this year and have yet to hear anything about the new venue). The Green Bay show at 120 miles I also regard as very close -- do the show, hit some hobby shops, do some railfanning, eat at the Titletown Brewery in the old CNW depot, and head home. I usually take a bus that my NMRA division sponsors to the Madison show (85 miles) because that is in winter and there have been blizzards. But I am surprised that guys regard 30 miles as too far to go to a train show. I do agree it might be too far to go to a swap meet unless you know it to be a very good one.
Dave Nelson
Most train shows today evolved from the swap meets of yesterday. What turned a small firehouse or Moose Lodge show into a mega show was the location and guts of promoters to spend big advertising bucks. Of course a large and clean venue was a must coupled with ample and free parking. During the late 70's and early 80's and later on, there was literally a show one could attend each weekend here in the mid-Atlantic area. Most shows were 85% tin-plate which evolved into hi-rail....but still good bargains and rare items could be found among the fewer individuals selling scale.
What was interesting, were the so few hobby shops who set up at these shows. In our formative years in our show during the early 80's, we would canvass the then many train stores in the area, and get tossed out of most of them accompanied by curse words I did not know even existed. Our selling point was that more possible buyers would pass by your tables in the first two hours than you would have in a whole year in your store. This was not a "Trumpism" as I did know many stores who would be lucky to have 7 visitors a day if that. Times 356 would equal less than 2500 per year. At the Timonium winter show, easily more than 2500 attendees would have passed by these tables by 11 AM. Even if a store did not want to sell or dump slow items, just the advertising value would have been one hell of a bargain for the low table price. Could this attitiute also be a reason why so many train stores have shut down?
Point of above?................good question, just talking about train shows!
I have never made it to the large east or west coast shows, but I try to attend most of the local shows, even if I dont have more than $20 to spend. I enjoy meeting friends I usualy do not see but at the shows and its a change to get myself out the house. Most LHS do not carry what I am looking for, which is G scale and mostly older LGB product. We are blessed to have one that does, along with another shop in the Indianapolis area that deal heavily in estates and its mostly all the good stuff. Both turn away most of the junk nobody would want. Both shops are quite busy, espicaly on weekends of shows and from Oct thru the end of winter. Some of the largest retailers(both brick & morter/online) that delt with large scale have gone defunct. We lost Ridge Road Station, St Aubin's(which had 2 locations) and Watts Train shop(although reborn in smaller form as Zionsville Train Depot). Our family also does the majority of our shopping online, its cheaper, less wear and tear on the vehicles and more importantly is that I dont have to deal with being in a loud/crowded store. Online shopping is wonderfull for someone on the autism spectrum. I cope with the crowd and noise at train shows, but I will be a hermit once I get home as I will need extended alone/down time to recover. Times are changing and only the strong will survive. I always wanted to make Mr Zane's show back in the day. I was heavily into brass HO years ago. Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
Like Howard, having been involved in this business, and being the OP of that "other" thread, I will offer a few thoughts:
When I managed a train department in a full line hobby shop, in the late 70's and early 80's, we worked hard to provide that old fashioned hands on service, especially for those just learning about the hobby.
But the discounting was already hurting our ability to provide good service - LONG before the internet, and when discount mail order was sometimes of questionable integrity, some shops, especially one here in the Baltimore market, were already offering pretty deep across the board discounts............
The internet simply sealed the deal.......
That shop, and others like them around the country had simply grown to a volume that allowed them to buy most products directly from the manufacturers, a savings they happily passed on to the customers.
The internet simply makes that business model easier and more viable - today that same shop is one of the leading internet sellers......
The train shows offer buyers a chance to connect with lots of used and "New Old Stock" held by sellers who don't necessary need to "make a living", and that is fine.
But I can understand the reluctance of brick and mortar retailers back in the day to pack up a third of their shop and haul it to a show to then compete with basement dealers who's train "business" is really just part of their hobby.
The developement of the bigger shows did create "real" businesses geared to that marketing model, but the train show remains a venue open to all sorts of sellers. And it does seem that some sellers have tired of the work/return on investment ratio, OR, the further expansion of online marketing has hurt them just like it hurt the small local shops - hence my original thread a few months back.......
Personally, in the days when the shows were really booming, I seldom went. I don't like crowds, or fighting crowds to look at products I want to buy.
I do/did go occasionally to search for specific items, mainly NOS stuff. I was seldom impressed with the pricing of new/current items and seldom bought new current items at the train shows.
The central Maryland region still has several brick and mortar stores with exceptional prices. One is also a big internet player - the other a big train show player - why wait for the show? I can drive to their shops.......
How do new people learn about the hobby and its products today? Well that is a good question. And there is some evidence on this forum that they simply don't learn as well or as much - even with a local shop - as noted by the threads posted by some new people having problems with trying to get some trains up and running - despite a great effort of a number of experianced modelers on here - nothing beats first hand converation and hands on learning.
But I can't solve that problem, or the problem of "getting young people in the hobby". And to be honest, I don't really have any energy left for the "social" side of the hobby.
So for a 59 year old lone wolf who has been at this since age 10, and has most of the model trains I ever wanted, "www.sendittomenow.com" is just fine, or a trip to the remaining nearby shops, or a Sunday at a "dead" train show where I can actually look at what is for sale without fighting a crowd, supplies all the extra bits I need or want for my modeling.....
But don't blame the internet for the deep discounting that has killed local shops and weakened the shows - it started WAY before the internet......in a little shop in downtown Baltimore.
Sheldon
PS - maybe I need to ad a disclaimer about my buying habits - I'm not a "collector", and I'm not an "impulse buyer". My modeling goals are carefully defined and buying trains for me is like buying the parts to restore a car - I only buy what "fits".
ATLANTIC CENTRAL How do new people learn about the hobby and its products today? Well that is a good question. and there is some evidence on this forum that they simply don't learn as well or as much - even if with a local shop - as noted by the threads posted by some new people having problems with trying to get some trains up and running - despite a great effort of a number of experienced modelers on here - nothing beats first hand conversation and hands on learning.
How do new people learn about the hobby and its products today? Well that is a good question. and there is some evidence on this forum that they simply don't learn as well or as much - even if with a local shop - as noted by the threads posted by some new people having problems with trying to get some trains up and running - despite a great effort of a number of experienced modelers on here - nothing beats first hand conversation and hands on learning.
Rich
Alton Junction
I'm 39, so I didn't grow up with the internet, but used it long before most other folks in the same vein.
As long as the local shops offer competitive pricing I buy things there. Sometimes I buy them online new and used depending on deals and sales I know they cannot match. It happens, its called life. I want him to stay around.
Where do I go when I need kadee couplers quick?
Who has someone in person that can give you actual advice? Who else will call someone or the company directly while you stand there to get you an answer?
Where else can you put a face to a name and do business?
Where did I order my scaletrains Big Blow from?
Answer to all the above is my local hobby shop. Sometimes I spend a few bucks more, sometimes I spend less. I'm not stupid with my money, but I do try and measure where and how it was spent. I don't get everything there and there are some things he flat out cannot compete on, he knows it and I know it and that's okay for both of us.
Only local show of any merit that I've known in Chicago area is the Great Midwest train show. Figure it takes me 1 hour without traffic and 1.5 or 2 with traffic to get there. I take my older boy when I go and usually meet a friend of mine who lives near there.
11 months of the year it has a pretty large following and its definitely pretty full when you get there both parking lot wise and people in the aisles. I don't thing the deals are there to be had like they were 10-20 years ago sadly. Lot of shops that used to attend are gone or do not attend now. You have the obligatory overpriced junk that the same people bring month after month, which you will have in any hobby with shows/get togethers/conventions.
If you get there at a decent time and know what you are looking for, you can still get some nice deals, it just takes a little snooping and a good eye to spot the jewels from the junk. A lot of extra work if you have a 6 year old in tow The kid likes his trains and I get to play too.
Also always remember one thing that no one seems to ever mention. If there are 100 people in your train club, I'm willing to bet there are 300 more who are clueless of its existence in the same area. The same goes for internet forums. Lots of people don't talk to each other or get involved in groups/gatherings of things they enjoy. I've run across this more time than I can count on a forum I moderate for thirdgen(82-92) Camaro and Firebirds as well as on one of the largest Transformers sites in existence. I met people all the time and got the "Wow! I didn't even know that existed"
I like train shows. I like looking at all kinds of model trains, different products, different layouts...just spending a few hours looking at all of the models is worth the price of admission, IMO.
As far as bargains. Its pretty tough to beat the internet as far as new stock pricing, but there are usually several tables of vendors, local modelers mainly, who sell surplus collection items, estates, etc. Many are junk, many have not been taken care of, but there is usually a fair mount of stuff that's in good shape. Not to mention finding items that are hard to find once in a while.
The National Train Show is this weekend in Indy. I'll head over there and see what's new. I don't expect it to be much of a swap-meet, but new item vendors and manufacturers will be putting on a "show", so I'll check it out.
- Douglas
If I am alive, I will attend the last one, for the pure, irreplaceable pleasure of serendipity: I love the bargains, I enjoy the layouts, but nothing else gives you the same pure, unassailable delight as discovering something you never thought you'd find, or something you never even knew existed. Only train shows offer it in pure form, and do so on a room-filing scale.
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
DoughlessI like train shows. I like looking at all kinds of model trains, different products, different layouts...just spending a few hours looking at all of the models is worth the price of admission, IMO. As far as bargains. Its pretty tough to beat the internet as far as new stock pricing, but there are usually several tables of vendors, local modelers mainly, who sell surplus collection items, estates, etc. Many are junk, many have not been taken care of, but there is usually a fair mount of stuff that's in good shape. Not to mention finding items that are hard to find once in a while.
I thought I was off this weekend, but alas I am not. Was going to go with my buddy and my boy since I'm only 2 hours away. Looked like a lot of stuff to see.
JEREMY CENTANNIAs long as the local shops offer competitive pricing I buy things there. Sometimes I buy them online new and used depending on deals and sales I know they cannot match. It happens, its called life. I want him to stay around. Where do I go when I need kadee couplers quick? Who has someone in person that can give you actual advice? Who else will call someone or the company directly while you stand there to get you an answer? Where else can you put a face to a name and do business? Where did I order my scaletrains Big Blow from?
All of that is assuming there is a excellent shop that keeps fresh stock,is knowledgeable and not a shop with 40 year old BB kits still sitting on the shelf.
As I mention several times before if I had a good shop that offered a token discount he would get 90% of my business but,nearest shop is a 52 mile round trip at full MSRP..
Now there is a art to shopping on line and when I see my KDs are getting low I add a bulk pack to my monthly order from one of my three on line shops.BTW.I never get confused on whom I ordered from and I can call any manufacturer-a fun experience since you can talk directly to the horses mouth so to speak..The way I see I pay for long distances in my phone package-you no extra charge for long distance? I can call and talk to the on line shop just as easily.
This months order included five bottles of paint,5 packs of IM wheelsets,3 packs of Tomar Hayes wheel stops,Walthers Goo and 2 packs of Evergreen H columns.
I am skiping the national train show, its $14 to get in, plus high doller paid parking in downtown Indy. Instead, my wife and I are invited to a gauge 1/G scale steam up at a local gentlemans house with dinner served on Friday/Saturday evening, we are going on Friday weather permiting. Will be at a music concert Saturday night. I saw all the big mfg's at the GTE show this past winter at the fairgrounds. Not much new coming in G scale that is affordable or floats my boat. Still was fun though. Mike
ATLANTIC CENTRALHow do new people learn about the hobby and its products today? Well that is a good question. And there is some evidence on this forum that they simply don't learn as well or as much - even with a local shop - as noted by the threads posted by some new people having problems with trying to get some trains up and running - despite a great effort of a number of experienced modelers on here - nothing beats first hand converation and hands on learning.
True,but,again if the shop owner and his employee is knowledgeable in the field of model railroading.A train show dealer could be clueless while others are a wealth of information about their products.
Go to Hobbyland and 90% of the time you get a blank stare or some malarkey to get you to spend more money on things you don't need. Some mom and pop hobby shops wasn't that much better. I've seen a lot of misguidance on various forums over the years I been on forums. The crap got so heavy on one forum I ended up linking to this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNyuMsWSLGc
Some times the newb gets into more trouble by asking a simple question on a forum. I recollect a person asked about a good power pack and immediately he was bombarded by go DCC replies even though he plainly stated he had a limited budget..
Even back in the day finding a good hobby shop was like finding a rare jewel. When found it was cherished and the owner became a friend and thus it is with certain train show dealers..I may not know their names nor do they know mine but,I head directly to their table because they have good quality use stuff at reasonable prices..
It is possible that I may hold a record in visiting hobby shops. During the 70's I drove corporate airplanes for a living. I worked for a company that had business in many states, so on my layovers I'd always visit the local LHS and there were many then. It could have been well over 100 shops or even considerably more, but I was rarely impressed....sometimes rather bewildered at the lack of decent service. At times I'd be the only visitor in the shop. The guy behind the counter had absolutely no interest in me and the prevailing attitute was....."what the hell is he doing here?"
Then there were the good train stores and that was my driving force to open my own shop during the period, and of course the train show. Also there were the hundreds of mental notes on what not to do.
At a good train show, one does not deal with just the above idiot as mentioned, but sometimes over a hundred dealers and individuals with all kinds of products and people skills. Had I been a possible newbie wandering into a poorly run store, there would be a good chance that I'd never enter the hobby. To date I have not yet heard of a model railroad prospect being turned off from a DECENT train show.
Saying for the day..........."You do not stop playing with your trains because you grow old......You grow old because you stop playing with your trains!"
I got my start by going to train shows back in the early 2000s when I was in high school. As a high school student, the job working at Dairy Queen and the local pizza place did not allow for high end purchases. Train shows were the perfect place for me to get started. For $50 at my first train show, I purchased a box of over 200 pieces of track, a Athearn blue box locomotive, and a few pieces of rolling stock. A LHS typically will not offer that opportunity.
In the next few years after starting, I found a LHS that was about one hour away. When I would get there, I would spend quite a bit on a few of the nicer pieces InterMountain or Atlast cars that I couldn't get at a train show. I would pick up packs of couplers and a few other supplies that had deals on them.
Now, I am slowly getting back into the hobby (with a lot of persuading of my fiancee to let me). Train shows seem to have gone down in this area. I attended one in the spring that 15 years ago was booming. It was not just one small entry way. I was able to find a few deals and even see a few vendors that I remembered as a high school kid. Attending the show brought back a lot of memories, it allowed me to see current trends in the hobby, and it helped me get a better understanding of how great the hobby is.
I have a few shows in my calendar for the fall that I'd like to attend. I've also been looking on a few sites for items that I'd like to purchase. However, money is tight with the wedding coming up and just buying a house. I hope the train shows will not completely die out. They are a great place for the younger generation to get there start, for us middle aged guys to find a few deals if they're in a situation like mine, and for the older generation to interact with hobbyists and share their knowledge and skills.
"back in the early 2000s "
Now that is a phrase I never dreamed I would hear.
But then, I remember when I thought 40 was old. Now I have a daughter older than that and a grand daughter who has graduated from high school.
Where did the time go?
emdmike I am skiping the national train show, its $14 to get in, plus high doller paid parking in downtown Indy. Instead, my wife and I are invited to a gauge 1/G scale steam up at a local gentlemans house with dinner served on Friday/Saturday evening, we are going on Friday weather permiting. Will be at a music concert Saturday night. I saw all the big mfg's at the GTE show this past winter at the fairgrounds. Not much new coming in G scale that is affordable or floats my boat. Still was fun though. Mike
Mike
Your point about admission fees and parking is valid. I consider those expenses the cost of entertainment, just like you'd pay if you saw a "show" of any kind, not just a train show. I would describe GTE, WGH, and probably the National Train Show as more of a show, whereas some of the smaller more local events would be considered swap-meets. There is a difference to me and it goes into whether I'm looking at fees as being part of the entertainment or as it being a cost effective way to buy products. The internet is hard to beat for the latter, but the local meets in the Indy area are pretty competitive.